Phil Jackson vs Mike Krzyzewski Beef

SkalAndJamal
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Phil Jackson vs Mike Krzyzewski Beef

So Phil just took a shot on the Duke program, I would love to see Coach K respond. Story we can tell future basketball junkies for the rest of our lives lol


Smokedout
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So what happened?

..

BleedGreen808
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Phil basically said that Duke

Phil basically said that Duke players haven't lived up to expectations outside of Grant Hill. It makes me wonder would he have brought that up if Okafor fell to him at 4? I find it hard to believe he would say we aren't taking Okafor because he played at Duke. There were also reports that the Knicks liked Winslow so were those false?

It comes off as a shot at Coach K's system being the reason these players aren't as good as people think they should be. Lots of schools have had players that didn't live up to expectations. Also there have been plenty of solid NBA players from Duke like Irving, Redick, Boozer, Deng, Plumlee, Elton Brand, Jabari(as long as he's healthy), etc.

Here's the quote from Phil. “Also, if you look at the guys who came to the NBA from Duke, aside from Grant Hill, which ones lived up to expectations?”

Ghost01
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Kyrie Irving hasn't lived up

Kyrie Irving hasn't lived up to expectations?

Phil should stick to having D Fish run the triangle and scaring away free agents.

Magic Jordan
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Nice choosing one of the few

Nice choosing one of the few outliers. I would say that it is a fact that the majority of Duke players don't live up to expectations.

Phil should stick to being a part of winning Championships. Arguably the most successful individual in NBA history. More so than Bill Russell who played in an era with very little teams.

He should stick to the triangle, the most successful offense in NBA history. And still is considering the Warriors and Spurs have a ton of triangle influence in their offense.

And maybe he meant the majority of these players look better BECAUSE of Coach Ks system?

Stupid Phil.....

SkalAndJamal
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I mean Duke is a very solid

I mean Duke is a very solid program, but for a blue blood and all the top rated recruits they have gotten, outside of Grant hill and maybe Kyrie, who realistically is going to be in hall of fame cause of their NBA career? UCLA, North Carolina are loaded with guys, Calipari is getting UK there. Kansas has a few and one of them is Wilt. Georgetown is pretty solid too.

I May Be Wrong
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Elton Brand should be

Elton Brand should be mentioned. Way above average when he entered and was a consistent 20-10 from '99-07....then, well the injuries happened and just wasnt the same player.

This whole Phil Jackson comment was sparked when someone asked why they passed on Justise Winslow right?

I May Be Wrong
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CRAP.... saw that Brand was

CRAP.... saw that Brand was mentioned lol... my bad bro

SkalAndJamal
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No rings only 2 all-star

No rings only 2 all-star appearances is going to be tough to justify for HoF

jonesbryan93
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Duke players stay hurt it's a known fact

Duke players in the league stay hurt grant hill elton brand Kyrie Irving jj also and Deng has injury problems

Biggaveliii
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phil

Irving, boozer, brand, redick, deng, plumlee, are solid players, Phil Jackson needs to realise the NBA aint in the 90s it has evolved. Coach ks players understand what their roles are, Shane battier prime example, an individual who never played out of his comfort zone, what a 3 and D player is. Lets face it if he was a smart gm he would have to atleast entertain the possibility of dealing melo, because with this team denver or toronto getting a helluva player next years draft. No slack on zinger i feel hes going to be a good player a better version of bargnani imo. The Knicks are not making the playoffs even if the east is weak.

DunksNJordans23
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Phil be quiet.

Also note, only two players that have played for Coach K have been on a team that has won an NBA championship VERY late in their career so he may be trying to say they haven't carried their team? I'm not sure. Shane Battier as a role player and Danny Ferry off the bench are the only two with NBA rings.

One thing I found totally absurd was that on one of the ESPN shows they were saying that Coach K should be praised because that means the players he gets aren't that good. Excuse me, but coach K probably gets more 4 and 5 star guys than anyone over the past 25 years than anyone. Everyone who is a basketball dad sends their kid to Duke too.

Was Phil right? Not really.

Is coach K a good college coach, absolutely.

Bed Head
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Phil was only "returning fire", actually.

About 3 weeks ago, there was an amazing article in the NYT where they asked a bunch of coaches to unravel the mysteries of the Triangle. And K basically said an O is only as good as the talent running it. In fact, I believe his direct quote was, "The Triangle didn't win crap!"

And when I read that, I was like, "Yeah, no duh." But apparently Phil felt it was some sorta vicious personal attack. Anyways, here's a link to the piece:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/28/sports/basketball/phil-jackson-knicks-...

King Calucha
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I was going to mention this.

I was going to mention this. Clearly, Phil doesn't take criticism well...

Bed Head
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Dude's skin is so thin ...

He makes Donald Trump look like a rhinoceros. (You know, cause rhino skin is, like, really thick and all.)

Oh, and something occurred to me that hadn't before*, regarding that quote from Coach K ("The Triangle didn't win crap!"). I'm having a lot of trouble picturing him saying it in that way (in those words). I mean, K always seems so dignified and measured. Yet, suddenly he's all, like, Lewis Black or something.

* Maybe Christmas isn't something that's bought in a store!

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The more Phil Jackson opens

The more Phil Jackson opens his mouth these days, the more dilusional and out of touch he seems. First he says that teams that shoot a lot of three's can't win in the playoffs, when the four teams that made the conference finals were all among the best and highest volume three point shooting teams in the league. Than he says Duke doesn't produce good NBA players, which may have been a somewhat accurate statement if this were 1998. Over the past 15 years Duke has produced as many quality NBA players as any college in the country. If okafor had slipped to four, you know damn well Jackson would have taken him. This just seems like sour grapes and there is no need for coach k to dignify this with a response.

VRod305
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Phil has a point

He is absolutely right. Duke guys don't translate. Look at "The Landlord" who had bricks for hands. Redick was drafted in the top-10, and hasn't lived up to that. Kyrie Irving is garbage, he had a .415 winning percentage and lottery appearance after lottery appearance until LeBron put him on this back. Elton Brand had a solid career, but that's about it the last 15 years as far as living up to draft expectations. Other guys like Luol Deng have been solid, but K only had one year to ruin him.

Biggysmalls
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Phil's becoming an old

Phil's becoming an old cermudgeon and looking like a fool.

Not a duke guy, but is the guy paying attention around the NBA? Besides Kentucky, and maybe UCLA, Duke has the best crop of alumni in the league.

Sure they've had some flops like Shelden Williams, Laetnerr, Will Avery etc...newsflash, that happens when guys get drafted every year, but they've had a ton of guys churn out really good careers.

Redick has exceeded expectations I'd say. Deng too. Boozer, Dunleavy, Gerald Henderson, the Plumlees, the list goes on.

Phil has done plenty of winning in his day, and nobody should question his impact on the NBA, but that doesnt mean he can spew idiotic babble and not be questioned.

Cynthia
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Duke Makes Solid Players

I wouldn't call this a beef, it's just Phil being Phil. Phil has always taken small shots at people all throughout his career, similar to Popovich. Usually it's to get into their opponents heads though, and obviously Coach K isn't an opponent so I can see how some might think it's a little off base.

However statistics don't lie, considering the sheer amount of Duke players we've had in the league, on an overall basis they haven't been incredibly succesful, and many have not lived up to their potential. But that doesn't mean Duke players haven't been good, most of them have been solid starters & role-players and made long careers for themselves.

Mike Dunleavy is a prime example, he was taken #3 but did not live up to his potential, BUT he's been an extremely solid player his whole career; whether starting or coming off the bench. Even last year at 34 years old he still almost averaged 10 PPG.

Boozer & Brand were very good in their primes, not enough to get into the HOF but both were guys the opposing team had to plan for. Deng is one of the best two-way players I've ever seen, again probably not going to the HOF but he's a well above-average player.

The list goes on; Redick, Gerald Henderson, Josh McRoberts, Kyle Singler, the Plumlee's etc. None of these guys you look at and think "wow" but they're all solid and will be NBA lifers.

SkalAndJamal
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If K responds, then it'll be

If K responds, then it'll be beef. However other than saying "you guys are just bad" this is the 2nd worst thing you could say to a top program like Duke.

I.C.Y.U.NV.ME
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No Duke hasn't produced very

No Duke hasn't produced very many hall of famers, but they have put a lotttt of guys in the league and a majority of them have been solid. Plus, some Duke greats have have their careers derailed by injuries. It's impossible to say where Jay Williams' career would of ended up but he was super talented. If Grant Hill never got injured he would go down as one of the all time greats. Now a guy like JJ Redick...did you really expect him to be anything other than a floor spacer in the league? I mean seriously. That's the case with a lot of Duke players. They are meant to be great COLLEGE players. Coach K said it himself "The league is made up of about 5% superstars and the rest are role players"....someone has to play their role....

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Coach K produces solid NBA

Coach K produces solid NBA guys. I mean he does get top talent every year to come to Durham. Has K really had a mega-super star like a Lebron or Kevin Durant in the NBA? No. Grant Hill was a stud before his injuries. Kyrie is immensely talented but is injury prone. K has produced plenty of good players, but no true superstars. It shouldn't really be a knock on him though. Does he run a system that is different from the wide open play of the NBA? Yes. Guys like Roy Williams and Coach Cal run more wide open systems that allow players to showcase their talents better than Coach K in my opinion. Roy hasn't produced any top flight NBA talent recently and we all know Coach Cal's resume of getting guys into the league. It is fair to criticize K for not having mega-stars come out of Durham, but he has produced plenty of really solid guys that have contributed plenty at the NBA level.

Thepessimest
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Let's Be Honest About Duke Players...

I think we should be honest about Duke players and what an honest assessment of their talents were/are. I'm officially an old head now (lol) and have watched Duke all the way back to the Danny Ferry days. I never thought Danny Ferry would be any more than what he was. I never thought Christian Laettner was going to be any more than what he was. While Coach K has had talent in terms of college talent; I have rarely looked at players on most of his rosters (outside of the few I will name briefly) and said...."Man when he gets to the NBA he will kill". And that applies to Jayson Williams who was the #2 pick in the draft. I thought Jay would have been a very good player..but I do not think he was on his way to being a franchise guy. Could I have been wrong? Of course and we'll never know.

But let's look at the guys who have played well in the NBA.

Carlos Boozer was a 2nd round pick who at this point in his career is being evaluated using revisionist history. Boozer went from unheralded, to all star level production, to now people talk about Boozer and mock him. If I told you that a 2nd round pick would play 13 years and average 17 and 10 (rounded up) over his career would you take that? Carlos Boozer was really really good and in Utah (along with Okur and Deron Williams) carried that team to some great years. In fact, Utah hasn't won since he left.

Elton Brand was 20 and 10 every year. Before CP3 and Blake arrived....Brand and Sam "I Am" Cassell led a mini-Clippers rebirth. Elton's great production was only stopped by an Achillis injury. Before his injury Elton Brand was a monster as a PF. Did he disappoint? I don't think so.

Grant Hill...do I even need to go into detail how good this guy was?

Kyrie Irving is brilliant although still growing.

Again... and ignore they draft slot....I never thought Luol Deng, Shane Battier, JJ Redick, the Plumlee's, Duhon, Mike Dunleavy, etc would be any more or less than what they were.

So the question isn't whether they disappoint...the question is whether or not the team success that they all experience over-states what their potential was?

The only player I feel like had more talent to have an even better career than what he showed was Corey Maggette. I felt Corey Maggette could have had a better career than he ended up having. But even so...We're talking about a guy who averaged 16ppg career and had some 20ppg years.

And imagine how this list would look if Shaun Livingston and Kobe didn't skip college?

So while I get what Phil is saying I think his beef should be with the Duke love fest that exists. College basketball analysts have consistently over the years over-stated and over-rated Duke players as individuals. They have a high exposure rate (always on TV) and we were constantly told that marginal players such as Steve Wojo was the epitome of what a player should be. If you thought Shane Battier disappointed when basically he always projected as a solid role player who did the little things...then that's on you.

Lol....

From my view point...Okafor won't succeed or fail because he went to Duke..it will be based on whether or not he stays healthy, gets into shape, and continues to work on his game. Where he went to school will not be the determining factor.

In conclusion; while Duke has not produced many transcendent players or any if we're honest (although Grant Hiill was and would have been) I don't think Duke players disappoint if...they are properly evaluated in the first place.

SkalAndJamal
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He still gets just as many

He still gets just as many blue-chip recruits as the next guy and he's been coaching for decades, how he can't help the development of players making superstardom should be noticed. I know everyone isn't like Calipari but man Jim Calhoun has more stardom coming out of his program than K's.

Thepessimest
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......

I would be interested in hearing who you consider a "star" out of UCONN other than Ray Allen.

SkalAndJamal
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Rip Hamilton, Andre is on his

Rip Hamilton, Andre is on his way. 3>2.

Thepessimest
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Rip a star?

I do not agree that Rip Hamilton was a star. He was very good and key on a championship team. But a star he was not. Very good...but not a star. Star's are franchise guys. Guys who put teams on their backs. Guys who are all stars almost every year. Guys who dominate games. Rip Hamilton was a very good player on a very well rounded Detroit team.

So basically Ray Allen is the only case UCONN has.

And Andre Drummond is a very talented player; however, I will reserve judgment on him being a star. At this moment he is an athletic center who like most of the big men today are specialist. Lob catchers, rebounders, and defenders. Great athlete and he is improving at this young age.

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Thepessimest

You hit the nail on the head buddy.

Hitster
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Phil was the most successful

Phil was the most successful NBA Coach ever with 11 titles and Coach K has the most wins of any NCAA coach ever. Both guys excelled at what they did. I have huge respect for both guys achievements in their respective systems.

Coach K's role is to make Duke successful, it's not to turn out NBA superstars, he's not a high profile 1 and 1 type coach like Coach Cal, he drills team ethic, defence etc into his players. A lot of his guys return for their full college careers and his success is built by having these guys improve year on year and with some star talent thrown in too. You don't have 5 NCCA Titles across 25 seasons if this doesn't work let alone a 35 year career at a powerhouse college and become the most respected coach in the college games.

Anyone who says Coach K cannot handle big names - he has had a great record with Team USA and has been offered numerous NBA roles over the years interestingly Phil's Laker job when he left the first time a decade or so ago.

Phil has taken a cheap shot at Coack K IMO, it would be like Coach K saying Phil hasn't done much as a Front Office Executive.

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In defense of Phil Jackson,

In defense of Phil Jackson, coach K has had a lot of big-time high school players who have busted out either by having lackluster college careers, or not living up to the hype in the NBA.

Here are some high level high scool talents off of the top of my head who have gone to Duke and busted:

Danny Ferry - bust.

Chris Burgess - bust

Shelden Williams - bust

Shavlik Randolph - bust

Eric Boateng - bust

Christian Laettner - bust

Cherokee Parks - bust

Trajan Langdon - bust

Josh McRoberts - not quite a bust, but definitely underwhelming...

Lance Thomas - bust

Nolan Smith - bust

Kyle Singler - bust

Jon Scheyer - bust

William Avery - bust

DeMarcus Nelson - bust

Daniel Ewing - bust

Chris Carrawell - bust

Austin Rivers - bust

Dahntay Jones - bust

Chris Duhon - bust

Many would consider Shane Battier, Mike Dunleavy, and Elton Brand busts based on their draft positions and expectations. I disagree. These guys were never hyped as the next big thing. Instead they were very good college players and the expectations were more based on the Duke mystique of having a high bball IQ and intangible leadership qualities. In that sense, Battier may be coack K's all-time greatest NBA product.

Coach K has had a ridiculous amount of takent over his years as a head coach at Duke. I think that most would agree that, although he is an elite college coach, he is not attuned to developing his players for the next level. If I were the parent of a 5 star recruit today, and if NBA success was my main goal, there is only one place I would be thinking of: UK. As long as Calipari is there anyway...

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