[2quick4uParticipant]

I understand a lot of people (especially young) won’t like this topic, as Lebron has been this generation’s reference player, but I think it is necessary and about time to talk about Lebron James legacy now that the season is over, to review his career without adding any mythology, especially now that a propaganda machinery (started by himself) started to create again a non-sense debate proclaiming him the goat.

Lebron is one of the greatest players of all time, no doubt, perhaps the most complete of all (when he played defense) and we really have to thank him for everything he’s done and still does for the game. But we have to be very careful when talking about his narrative and place him within his limits, respecting the history of the game.

So let’s take a look at some of the events and "myths" surrounding LJ’s career and analyze them in a more "realistic" way:

1. DOMINANCE: 9 NBA Finals + 3 Rings

Lebron has played 9 Finals and most people use this as his main argument, but we have to understand that the ’10 decade has featured the weakest Eastern conference of all time, by far, and the fact that he has already played 16 seasons while still only being 34yo.

Since Lebron assembled his big3 and joined Wade&Bosh, the biggest menace he had to face from 2010-2018 were: 1 year Rose’s Bulls before injury, an old Boston Celtics team featuring a 33-34yo Pierce and 35-36yo Garnett&Allen, an Indiana team led by a very young Paul George as franchise player with George Hill as PG and R.Hibbert as C, an Atlanta team featuring Horford and Millsap as franchise players, Boston again led by I.Thomas 1^st and by rookie Tatum next year and a Toronto team led by DeRozan and Lowry… those were the best Eastern teams of the decade, so imagine the rest…

Add that this decade has been the softest defensively, where defense has been non-existent except for very few teams in the league, and with contact absolutely not allowed especially as the decade has progressed.

We’ve now seen Lebron in the West, and his injury or the "trade affair" is not an excuse to not even make the playoffs… Denver played without 2 starters half season and finished 2nd and Indiana played 46 games without its franchise player and still won 48 games; I mean even the LAC won 48 games without T.Harris (their franchise player) for the last 27 games…

What would Lebron’s career look like if he had faced tougher competition in the East, like this year’s, or if he had played in the West? How many Finals or rings would he even have?

We don’t know, but we do know that before this ’10 weak eastern conference decade started and before assembling his big3, Lebron was unable to beat stronger and tougher teams like younger Boston, bad boys or even the Orlando Magic, and we also now know that in his 1st season in the west he didn’t even make the playoffs while averaging almost career highs…

1.1 Final’s record: 3W-6L (16 seasons)

Lebron has a 3-6 record in the NBA Finals, with 2 Titles being "suspicious" while 2 loses being against inferior teams. Let’s see that:

.2011 Finals: The Heat lost 2-4 against a very inferior Dallas team led by the great Dirk (33yo) with Kidd as a 38yo PG and without their starting SF, Caron Butler, due to injury… while the 3 Heat stars were in their absolute prime: Lebron totally melted down averaging 17’8 Pts and a 60% FT.

2012 Finals: Miami wins the Title against a very young and inexperienced OKC team, a team that the year before got swept by Dallas in the WCF and swept by MEM the next year in WCS, and then also in 2014 by an old Spurs team that would also swept Lebron’s Heat in the Finals…

2013 ”: Miami won the title, but a very old Spurs team led by a 37yo Duncan were 28sec away from winning it, when Popovich made his biggest mistake in his coaching life, leaving Duncan in the bench in those last seconds where Bosh took that off rebound and then Allen hit that miraculous last triple that saved Lebron’s poor showing in the finals until then : 21’5 pts with 43% FG in 5 games.

2014 ": Same Final but this time Miami loses 1-4 against an even older Spurs team with a very young Kawhi that still barely averaged 13pts/g in RS… MIA lost by the biggest PTS marging in history against the oldest franchise player champion in history.

2015 ”: Warriors beat Cavs 4-2. Let’s not forget that the Warriors was a team made out of the draft, where Draymond was a 6’6 “chubby” PF selected in 2^nd round and Thompson a Junior out of a small college like Washington state univ. and that both, Green and Thompson were just 25yo in those finals…

2016 ": Lebron’s biggest achievement and his only argument for claiming a spot in Mount Rushmore: the comeback against the GSW. The Warriors were up 3-1 and then suddenly lost 3 in a row. How? well let’s not forget that Curry played injured since he sprained his knee in 1st round against Houston costing him 2 weeks and an injury that was compounded by ankle and elbow injuries once he returned.. Add Draymonds suspension and Bogut’s injury…

2017&18 ": Cleveland got swept 4-0 and 4-1 by GSW… but remember that Houston was 1 injury away from beating the Warriors for 2 consecutive years and even the LAC beat them 2 games this year in playoff so: were Harden-Paul-Capela really better players than Lebron-Irving-Love¿? Also Kawhi’s Spurs were killing the Warriors in game 1 of WCF in 2017 until he got injured.

2. LEADERSHIP: Shine or hide?

There’s always been a debate whether Lebron was clutch or not but the real debate actually was if he hided and failed in big moments.

Before assembling his Big3, Lebron got swept in 2007 Finals against the Spurs and avgeraged 22pts with a 35,6% FG (here had excuse as he was young); next year failed against the Celtics in the ECS avg. 26,7pts with a 35,5% , failed again big time in 2009 against Orlando in the ECF after winning 66 games in RS and being named MVP and then lost and hided big time against Celtics again in 2010 ECS after finishing again 1^st in RS and being named MVP again, averaging in those series 26.8pts with 44.8% FG and struggling bad in game 5 with 15pts with a 3-14 and an 8-21 in game 6 where they lost the series.

Once in Miami and in his absolute prime, his 1^st year failed even worse again, losing against an inferior and old Dallas team and averaging 17,8pts with a 60% FT in those Finals…

In 2013 against the Spurs, Lebron was having a very disappointing final and if it wasn’t for R.Allen’s triple he would have been criticised very very hard, as he was just averaging 21’5pts with a 43% until that game 6, where those old Spurs were 28sec away from winning that Title.

Next year the Heat got swept by an even older Spurs team 1-4, led by 38yo Duncan and loosing each game by a margin of 18 points, the most in history…

Back with the Cavs, Lebron was only able to lead his team to 1 victory in 2 Finals and finally once in LA, he was not able to lead his team to even making the playoffs…

Did Lebron really shine or hide in big moments?

3. UNSELFISHNESS:

Lebron has always been labeled as an unselfish player, a passer more than a scorer and a player that makes others around better. Is it really true?

We should ask Wade who went from “superstar” to just “star” or being a 1^st all NBA team and an MVP candidate to a 3^rd all-team or we should ask Bosh and Love who went from being franchise players and all-stars to merely spot up shooters…

May be we should ask all those players (stars or not) that do not want to play next to him or to Kyrie who even run away from him…That never happened to other legends like MJ, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Kareem, Curry, Bill Russell or even Wilt.

The reality is that Lebron does not make players around him better; those who are already stars degenerate their game and those who are young or border-line all-stars (Ingram, Ball) are unable to make that next step next to him.

4. MOUNT RUSHMORE ¿?

The debate of Lebron vs MJ for GOAT is just absurd, such debate does not exist… After 16 seasons in the league, Lebron has not even achieved half of MJ’s accomplishments, aside the acumulative ones like PTS, All-NBA teams or all-stars which is something obvious as he’s played more years, but what people don’t realize is that MJ really only played 11 seasons as his “main career”, as the 2 seasons with the Wizards at 39&40 yo and after retiring 2 times don’t really count.

But what it is even more outstanding is that MJ retired for almost 2years while being in his absolute prime, where he would have won 2 more rings and probably 2 MVP’s, and then he retired once more in 1998 after winning the ring and still being the best player in the world…

Lebron’s debate is not about being the goat, which is totally out of his reach even if he won 3 more championships, Lebron’s real debate is if he’s really entered the NBA’s Mount Rushmore, as it is very debatable if he’s surpassed players like Magic, Russell, Duncan, Kareem, Shaq, Wilt or Kobe…

What do you think, should Lebron be in the NBA’s Mount Rushmore?

 

[MopgrassParticipant]

When I read your header, I was expecting some pics. 

[CoachWyersParticipant]

 Lebron is #5 on my all time list behing Kareem, Jordan, Bill Russell, and Kobe.

[Ahkasi ClayParticipant]

 Kobe lucky to make top 20. 

 

[SeattleSuperChronicsParticipant]

Steph over Lebron on rushmore 

[CoachWyersParticipant]

 I like Steph Curry more than Lebron, but he is not higher on the All Time list than Lebron at this point.

[jjj10manParticipant]

 The term "Mount Rushmore" was coined by fanboys who couldn’t make an argument for him being number 1 but needed something better than top 5 so they say "mount rushmore" as if that doesn’t just mean top 4.

 

[The GoatParticipant]

 I think we are well past reciting accomplishments to determine whether this guy is all time. He’s clearly in the top stratosphere which is always going to come down to personal opinion based on the eye test. 

[The GoatParticipant]

 IMO the top 5 at each position all time, in no order, are: 

Magic, Curry, Stockton, Oscar, Isiah

MJ, Kobe, Wade, West, Iverson

Lebron, Bird, Durant, Pippen, Kawhi

Duncan, Dirk, Barkley, Malone, KG

Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Olajuwon 

Harden, Westbrook, Nash, Moses Malone, David Robinson all may have an argument, and guys that were cut down by injury like Rose, Grant Hill and Penny may too if ranking these guys on talent at their peak.

To me there is a clear top 11 with Magic, MJ, Kobe, Bird, Duncan and the 5 centers, and Lebron is in the top 4 with MJ, Kobe and Magic. 

[eyefortalentParticipant]

 I’ve been watching the NBA since 1964 and Wilt is better than Kareem and Shaq and it’s not even close. Just check out the boxscores from the 1972 playoff series between the Lakers and Bucks and how a past his prime Wilt gave Kareem fits. Check out all the bad shooting games Kareem had. I, like thousands of fans who saw Wilt play believe he is the GOAT and players like Earl Monroe, Walt Frazierr, Rick Barry and Gus Williams have the same opinion

[CoachWyersParticipant]

 

My All Time Top 10 is as follows
1. Kareem
2. Jordan
3. Russell
4. Kobe
5. Lebron
6. Wilt
7. Magic
8. Duncan
9. Shaq
10. Bird

[EndlessknightParticipant]

While the Lakers did win that series Kareem averaged 34 pts/g in the loss to Wilt’s 11 pts/g.

[BlueRivers25Participant]

 i dont mind the list. I would say Curry is #12 after your top 11. 

[MopgrassParticipant]

I started watching in the 80’s, so I can’t rate the old-school guys. But since the 80’s, I say 1 Jordan, 2 LeBron/Magic.

One caveat: Shaq didn’t have an all-time career, but he was the most dominant player I’ve ever seen for a stretch of time. I’d pick Shaq if the question were “who was the best player in their prime?” Yes, awful free-throw shooter, but in his prime it didn’t matter: he made the field goal whether he was fouled or not (the anti-Dwight howard). 

As for Kobe, he’s just too streaky to make Top 5 consideration. And he kept shooting even if he was 0 for 22. That’s detrimental. 

[cohenbc1Participant]

I’ve made similar claims to argue that MJ can’t be the GOAT, because he never overcame an all-time great team in its prime.

I like your analysis but you are really stretching trying to denegrate the quality of LeBron’s opponents. But here’s another way to look at it.

LeBron has beaten two all-time great teams in the finals: the "Beautiful Game" Spurs in 2013 and the Warriors dynasty in 2016. And while the 2012 Thunder weren’t really ready for the finals, in 20 years all anyone will remember is that team had KD, Harden and Westbrook on it.

And if you look at LeBron’s finals losses, five of them came at the hands of the aforementioned Spurs and Warriors dynasties.

Now who was the best team that MJ ever beat?

The two-time defending champ Pistons in the ’91 East finals? Maybe, but time had clearly taken its toll on that team by the time MJ finally bested them. They would never make it out of the first round again.

The Lakers in the ’91 finals? Probably the best answer. This was still basically the Showtime Lakers only without Kareem. But the Showtime Lakers without Kareem never won a title — maybe they would have if Magic hadn’t retired, but we’ll never know.

After that what have you got? Nobody who ever won it all. Reggie’s Pacers and the Stockton/Malone Jazz are probably the best competition MJ ever faced after ’91 — memorable teams but not champions, let alone all-time greats.

The bottom line: MJ never led the Bulls past a championship team at its peak. LBJ has led his teams to finals victory over two all-time great teams.

 

 

[ChewyParticipant]

 That there can’t be a championship team to beat if Jordan wins every year like he did in the 90’s. It’s a chicken and the egg situation. Jordan can’t be great because he didn’t beat champions, but there can’t be champions because Jordan kept beating them.

[2quick4uParticipant]

How can you proclaim that MJ never past a championship team at its peak¿? That assertion is either result of ignorance or a very bias view of reality.

So now it happens that Magic Johnson’s Lakers were not an all time great team at its peak??

Let me tell you that Magic Johnson not only own the 80’s but was actually the player that totally transformed the game of basketball in that decade, just like MJ would do later in the 90’s for the next almost 20 years and just like Curry has done from mid ’10’s.

Let me tell you that Magic and his Lakers were in their absolute prime and in fact Magic was the 2 times reigning MVP (’89-’90) at the time, that is the best player in the world, and it was after those NBA finals in ’91 when he passed the torch of the league to Jordan.

Magic Johnson achieved in just a decade more than Lebron has achieved in 16 years and all that while playing against some of the best players and dynasties in history all at their absolute prime (Boston, Bad Boys, Chicago, Philly). In fact he had to beat more talent and dynasties at their prime than Lebron ever did and all that while transforming the game of basketball, something that Lebron never did, so give him some respect…and by the way, MJ had to beat and overcome all that, as there was much more at stake than "just" a championship… 

But not only MJ beat the Lakers and the large shadow of Magic, but also the 2 times reigning champs: the bad boys.

How can you say such thing about them? Time had not taken its toll on them, how is that possible when you are the 2 times reigning champion and your players core is basically in their prime? because I.Thomas was just 30yo, Dumars 28, Rodman 30 or Aguirre 31… 

By the way, the Bad boys not only beat the Bulls in 3 consecutives years but they also beat Bird’s Celtics in ’88 ECF and Magic’s Lakers in 2 NBA Finals and almost a 3rd one, so again, those Bad Boys that MJ had to overcome not only were the reigning champs but they also beat more talent in its prime than Lebron ever did…

Not only Magic’s show time Lakers but also the Bad Boys were arguably better dynasties than Lebron’s own dynasty itself, because i’m not sure many people will remember the Heat’s dynasty in the future… and with the Cavs he was not even able to build one…

The problem with Lebron is that it’s actually him who aside from beating the Warriors with an injured Curry and with Green’s suspension, has rever been able to defeat a Dynasty in its prime, because a Spurs team with a 37yo Duncan, a 36yo Ginobili, a 21yo Kawhi that averaged 11’9Pts/g in RS and a Tony Parker as your best offensive weapon, is not a Spurs dynasty in its "prime"…

In the other hand it’s Lebron who was’t able to take care of business and lost against very inferior teams like Dallas or those old Spurs and then he wasn’t able to even compete against the Warriors for 2 consecutive years winning just 1 game in 2 Finals.. legends like MJ, Russell, Magic, Bird, Duncan or Kobe would have never ever let that happen as their level of competitiveness and pride was much much higher than that…

Truth is Lebron has never been able to stand up in big moments and wasn’t even able to beat Orlando in 2009 or the Celtics in 2010 after finishing with his Cavs as the best team in RS both years and as the MVP, in order to give the world what everyone expected: the NBA finals against KOBE’s Lakers..

MJ did. He beat the 2 times reigning champs to give the world fans what they expected: the finals against Magic because in those type of finals there’s much much more at stake than just a Title, but Lebron has not even been able to put himself in that type of situations because he has the habit of failing…

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 Again. You are using some misleading arguments here to support your point. To say that Jordan and bulls beat the showtime lakers at their peak is far from accurate. The lakers team that the bulls beat hadn’t won a championship in 3 years. Kareem was retired by than and Riley was gone. Magic was still one of the best players in the game but was clearly starting to show his age. They played a much slower brand of basketball and didn’t have the athleticism to keep up with Chicago. Worthy and Scott were both injured and missed portions of the finals as well.  

And the 91 pistons were nowhere near the team they were in 89-90. Age and injuries took a serious toll on that team. If you watched the “bad boys” documentary they essentially admitted as much. You saw how quickly that team aged and fell apart after that season. Within 2 years they were in the lottery. It made for a nice passing of the torch narrative when Jordan finally beat those guys but let’s not pretend he beat them at the height of their dominance. 

I’m not disrespecting Jordan in any way. He beat the opponents in front of him and they were some damn good teams. I still consider him the GOAT. But he also never had to go up against an absolute juggernaut in their prime like the warriors or went into a finals series at a clear talent disadvantage against his opponents the way lebron has repeatedly throughout his career.

[2quick4uParticipant]

I’m not sure it’s me the one using misleading arguments… I mean the things that you say cannot be supported by any means and are arguments that only a Lebron groupie could use to defend the impossible.

Again, to say that Magic was just "one of the best in the league" or that he was "clearly starting to show his age" is absurd, when Magic was at that time the best player in the world, the MVP in ’89 and ’90 and 2nd in the MVP race in ’91. Magic absolutely dominated that era winning 5 rings with 9 finals in just 11 full years and arguably in the most talented era per square meter, while MJ had still won nothing..

Magic came from winning the championship in ’87&’88, played the Finals in ’89 and again in ’91 but you expect him to win every year¿? Lebron has "only" won 3 rings in 16 years so you should actually apply that harshness to him.

Again Magic was in his absolute prime and at the top of his game, same his Lakers which actually got even deeper than in ’88 and ’89 with the additions of Vlade Divac and Sam Perkins. Kareem was not having any type of impact during his last 2 years and he was actually not even the 3 sword on the team but the 4th behind Magic, Worthy and B.Scott who at that time was playing his best basketball and was the leading scorer of the team.

You keep saying non sense things like the Bad boys were a lesser team than the old Spurs that beat a prime Lebron, when the bad boys were the 2 times reigning champs and none of their main players was older than 30 while the Spurs were led by a 38yo player and had won his last ring 7 years ago.. i mean pure none sense to defend Lebron’ failures…

Let me tell you the real reason why Magic’s Lakers lost 2 Titles against the Pistons in late 80’s or why MJ couldn’t beat them neither in the 80’s, and the reason why in 1991 MJ swept both dnasties, the Lakers show time and the Bad Boys: RULES & PACE

I’ve tried to explain several times in this site that the "ruling conditions" governing an Era are what determine which team and star will dominate it, and that no matter how great a player is (even the GOAT), if he’s not playing under the rules and conditions that benefit his style he won’t be able to win, which is what happened to Chamberlain, Kareem, Magic&Bird in late 80’s and early 90’s, MJ in the 80’s or Lebron in his early and late career.

MJ absolutely dominated the 90’s because of the change of Rules that took place in 1981 that slowed the Pace, hardened the game and gave birth to the ISO game and whose effects started to take place in late 80’s which was the reason why the Bad Boys dominated those years, but specially since 1991 when those effects were in full mode and MJ was absolutely unbeatable under them.

Magic’s "show time" and "team play" were absolutely ineffective under those "new rules and Pace" just the same way that MJ’s unguardable 1×1 was useless under the 80’s rules of a faster pace and wider space.

Here i try to explain this in different topics:

. http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/hacking-nba-matrix-part-1

. http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/who-are-top-ten-nba-players#comment-839041

. https://www.nbadraft.net/forum/who-should-be-n%C2%BA1-draft-pick-evolution-game

. http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/when-did-stats-become-irrelevant#comment-841052

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

Magic was still one of the best players in the league in 1991, but he wasn’t at the absolute top of his game. He had lost a lot of speed and was a liability on defense at that point. Lakers had to abandon the fast break offense that made them so devastating in the 80s and go to a more half court post-oriented style, in part because he didn’t have the legs and the stamina to get up and down the floor the same way. Don’t get me wrong, bulls still beat a very good lakers team (albeit a banged up and injured one) in the finals but that team wasn’t close to being on par with the 1985-1988 lakers teams that won 3 titles in 4 years and definitely wasn’t the showtime lakers at their peak.

As far as the pistons team that Jordan beat, if that team was really at the height of their dominance when the bulls beat them in 91, how do explain the fact that 2 seasons later (with virtually the same roster) they failed to make the playoffs? Age and injuries just him them hard.  Again, very good team, but clearly a team that was on the decline.  

Far from a lebron groupie, I still have Jordan as the GOAT, but this a just a blatant attempt to find any little detail to discount lebrons accomplishments. If your not a fan, I understand, but I don’t see any way you can realistically look at his overall body of work and make the argument he’s not a top 5 player of all time. 

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 I’ve always took lebrons 3-6 finals record with a grain of salt. How many of those series can you honestly say he really had the better team? I’d say 2-3 times max. 

2007- complete mismatch against a spurs team that was a borderline dynasty. It was an incredible accomplishment just to get there at all, considering the overall lack of talent on the roster and the fact he was only 22 at the time. 

2011- this is the one major stain on his legacy. Not discounting the mavs who had a ton of depth, experience, and a superstar playing at an all-time level. But with the big 3 all in their primes the heat were clearly the more talented overall team. This was Miami’s series to lose and lebron just didn’t rise to the occasion. 

2012- Thunder were extremely talented but too young. Heat had experience and better coaching on their side. Heat were favorites in this one and took care of business. 

2013- Even. Heat had more top end talent while spurs were deeper. Great series. Could have gone either way. 

2014- on paper it looked like a pretty even matchup but anyone who watched the series knew otherwise. Spurs were deep, hungry and clicking. Heat were worn down and lebron got basically no help from supporting cast. Complete mismatch. 

2015- with love and kyrie both hurt virtually no chance for Cavs. I still think the fact that they were even able to put a serious scare into the warriors was pretty remarkable 

2016- not saying this was a complete mismatch. Warriors were showing serious cracks before the finals and Cavs were healthy and clicking at right time. Still the warriors were heavily favored and this is probably his signature accomplishment.

2017- up against maybe the best team ever. Lebron was dominant in this series but really no chance to win.

2018- complete mismatch.  Virtually no chance for Cavs. 

Compare that with Jordan who basically had the better team every year he was in the finals. We never really saw him perform in what was considered an underdog situation. 

[2quick4uParticipant]

Let me ask you something:

You "label" Lebron`s finals in 2013 and 2014 against those old Spurs as "even" and as "complete mismatch"… for the Heat…

But, how is it that if Lebron James was the best and most dominant player in the league and was at his prime, and was playing next to Wade who at that time was a 1st all NBA and a top 5 player in  the league regarded as the 2nd best G in the league behind Kobe, and if he also had as teammate Bosh who was an all-star franchise player regarded as one of the best Forwards in the league and if he finally also had as teammate Ray allen who at the time was considered the best shooter of all time, then again:   How is it that you label those finals as "complete mismatch" when the Spurs had a 38yo Duncan as franchise player, Ginobili with 37yo, Kawhi at 22 who still just averaged 13Pts/g in RS (14 in playoff) and Tony Parker who at 32 was their leading scorer in playoffs with 17Pts/G ???

The next question should then be: How should have we labeled the Spurs when Duncan and the rest were in their primes? 

And the 2 final questions would be: If Lebron the "chosen one", who was the most dominant player in the league and was playing next to a top 5 player,  plus another all-star (all in their primes) and plus the best shooter in history at the time, but he was not even able to beat the Spurs with Duncan as a 38yo franchise player, the question is:  Is then Duncan the best player in history?

And the final question would be: In what situation does this leave Lebron and how should we regard him in history, if him as the most dominant player and surrounded with the best possible is not able to beat a team lead by a 38yo player?

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

You make a lot of misleading arguments here.  Sure, Wade was a top 5 player in his prime but he was nowhere near that in 2014. The last 3 games of that series he struggled mightily and looked like a shell of his former self. Bosh was very subpar in that series as well and thoroughly outplayed by Duncan and the spurs bigs. They were relying heavily of way past their prime veterans like ray Allen, Shane battier, and rashard Lewis (all of whom never played in the league again following that series). 

That series was really kawhis coming out party and he was the guy that really made the difference for San Antonio. But really lebron and the heat just ran into a buzzsaw. The last 3 games of that series might have been the best example of great team basketball I’ve ever seen. It wasn’t so much individual dominance by any one player, collectively as a group they played almost perfect basketball. That group was ridiculously deep and well-rested for the playoffs (no player on the team averaged over 30 mpg for the regular season.) Meanwhile, the heat were worn down, very top heavy, and their supposed star players (besides lebron) gave them essentially nothing. Lebrons numbers in that series were actually quite good but there’s nothing he could have reasonably done to change the outcome. I still stand by the fact that, at that particular point in time, the spurs were just a far superior team, even if the heat had flashier names and more star power. 

[airguytonParticipant]

 Jordan beat all the competition and lebron didn’t and he did it with one team and didn’t need to team up with top 5 nba players to do so.  So there you go case closed Jordan’s the GOAT.  There’s a difference between 97 overall and 99 overall.

[frogmanParticipant]

I hate this argument.  Jordan did not beat all the competition.  When there were great teams in the Eastern Conference (Celtics, Pistons) Jordan could not beat them.  

We literally discount LeBron for getting to the Finals more times.  Losing in ECF semis etc is not more impressive than losing in the Finals but people don’t understand this for some reason.

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

Jordan did beat all the competition, when he had the best team, which was virtually every year from 1991-1998. Earlier is his career, when his teams weren’t as good, he couldn’t get to the finals. And as far as him teaming up with other stars or changing teams, he never had to because he was already on the best team in the league. For all the hatred that jerry Krause gets, he actually did a remarkable job surrounding Jordan with exactly the pieces he needed to win titles. If he hadn’t and Jordan had remainded without a title for a few more seasons, you can bet he would have been a lot less patient and probably demanded a trade at some point.

[nick5354Participant]

 I would also like to add a common knock on LBJ is he has inflated stats due to him coming into the league out of HS, and not playing college ball like lots of other greats. 

Why is this a bad thing? If anything it should go to show how special and great he is to come into the league day 1 and basically dominate? That is absolutely amazing to come into the league so young and play at such a high level. 

Off topic but this has always annoyed me haha.

And to asnwer your question, different players different areas. Always hard to compare, I never saw Jordan play but do think LBJ is not the GOAT. I would say he is Top 5.

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