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- Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 12:35pm #64179
Pro-21ParticipantRegardless of how the 2016 NBA Finals conclude, Kyrie Irving has established himself as someone who should be regarded as a fringe superstar if not a flatout superstar.
For the playoffs, he’s averaged 24.5 ppg, 5 assists and on 47 percent shooting from the field and 43% from 3point land. He’s led one of the most efficient and productive playoff offenses in recent memory. He’s managed to thoroughly outplay all of his point guard match-ups, and is now easily holding his own — if not outplaying — Stephen Curry, who has been called the best player in the NBA all year. He has, at time in this NBA Finals, scored at will against the league’s most inexhaustible and flexible defense. He’s played very sound defense on Curry.
People have said that Kyrie is just a ball dominant chucker, but he’s actually one of the most efficient scorers in the league and his turnover rate is incredibly low for someone who handles the ball as much as he does.
His defense is criticized, but he’s shown the capacity to be a solid defender in high pressure situations *and besides, no one can actually stop westbrook, cp3 or curry*.
I think Kyrie’s stats in these playoffs might have given us a glimpse at what his peak performance might look like. He can average 25 points per game on 47% shooting and 43% shooting from 3, and at least 5 or 6 assists and maybe 2 steals. Those stats and his low turnover rate and superior shooting could give him a ceiling as high as 2011 D.Rose, who averaged 25 ppg and 7.5 assists.
I think as of now, the best point guards are 1. Curry/Westbrook 2. Westbrook/Curry 3. CP3 4. Kyrie Irving 5. Damian Lillard/John Wall.
Kyrie probably won’t ever get past the three guards in front of him, but his lower turnover rate and ability to score very efficiently from everywhere on the court and potential to improve on defense definitely make him better than wall or lillard. By the way, Kyrie’s playoff run is a better one than any wall or lillard have ever had.
I’m not sure Kyrie’s stats ceiling will be revealed playing with LeBron, but we’ll see. Either way, look out for Uncle Drew in the future, because this guy can flatout play with anyone on any night.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 12:49pm #1072731
OhCanada-ParticipantI agree. One on one offensively he can’t be stopped. You have to hope he loses his aggression and settles for bad shots and gets into a slump. Defensively he works hard and rarely gets caught taking plays off more than any of his teammates would. Fringe superstar to me as well. Playing with Lebron in this atmosphere has helped him develop into a complete player and should do wonders for his career.
But I can’t say the same for Love.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 12:49pm #1072616
OhCanada-ParticipantI agree. One on one offensively he can’t be stopped. You have to hope he loses his aggression and settles for bad shots and gets into a slump. Defensively he works hard and rarely gets caught taking plays off more than any of his teammates would. Fringe superstar to me as well. Playing with Lebron in this atmosphere has helped him develop into a complete player and should do wonders for his career.
But I can’t say the same for Love.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 2:05pm #1072743
VRod305ParticipantI’ve been saying this for six years, this guy is not a winning player. He’s the guy you have if you are a bad team that wants to be in the lottery every year and you don’t care if he shoots 30 times a game at a 35 percent rate.
I don’t know how stupid people like Zach Lowe don’t get this. If he didn’t get lucky enough to be on LeBron’s team, there would be no difference between him and Ruby Gay.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 2:05pm #1072629
VRod305ParticipantI’ve been saying this for six years, this guy is not a winning player. He’s the guy you have if you are a bad team that wants to be in the lottery every year and you don’t care if he shoots 30 times a game at a 35 percent rate.
I don’t know how stupid people like Zach Lowe don’t get this. If he didn’t get lucky enough to be on LeBron’s team, there would be no difference between him and Ruby Gay.
0- Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 2:35pm #1072645
Pro-21ParticipantI’m sorry, but losing players don’t get the same player efficiency rating as the world’s best point guard during the postseason, and they surely don’t lead a historically good offense in scoring while also averaging 5 assists with a 3:1 turnover ration. They also don’t torch the league’s best defense in two straight games.
0- Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 3:34pm #1072658
VRod305ParticipantWowwwwwwwww. A whole five assists a game for a point guard.
0- Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 7:19pm #1072710
NZBennyParticipantHes not really playing the point though. LeBron is the primary ball handler on the team, and Kyrie is playing the role that traditionally would have been the shooting guard. Secondary ball handler and good shooter. Given that, his assist numbers are fine. Although I would disagree with the claim earlier that he is running an elite playoff offense. LeBron is running the offense, as he always is when on the court.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 7:19pm #1072824
NZBennyParticipantHes not really playing the point though. LeBron is the primary ball handler on the team, and Kyrie is playing the role that traditionally would have been the shooting guard. Secondary ball handler and good shooter. Given that, his assist numbers are fine. Although I would disagree with the claim earlier that he is running an elite playoff offense. LeBron is running the offense, as he always is when on the court.
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- Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 3:34pm #1072773
VRod305ParticipantWowwwwwwwww. A whole five assists a game for a point guard.
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- Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 2:35pm #1072759
Pro-21ParticipantI’m sorry, but losing players don’t get the same player efficiency rating as the world’s best point guard during the postseason, and they surely don’t lead a historically good offense in scoring while also averaging 5 assists with a 3:1 turnover ration. They also don’t torch the league’s best defense in two straight games.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:31pm #1072675
dudo670ParticipantCompletely agree with this guy. Kyrie Irving may be putting up points efficiently but he’s had no impact on wins and losses in the NBA finals he’s just a stats filler. He’s not that athletic and he makes a fair amount of dumb plays and doesn’t make up for them with anything great.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:31pm #1072789
dudo670ParticipantCompletely agree with this guy. Kyrie Irving may be putting up points efficiently but he’s had no impact on wins and losses in the NBA finals he’s just a stats filler. He’s not that athletic and he makes a fair amount of dumb plays and doesn’t make up for them with anything great.
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- Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 2:41pm #1072647
OhCanada-ParticipantOffensively he performs like a more controlled and less productive Russell Westbrook. It may not always be in the flow of the offense but it is effective and helps his team win.
0- Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 3:29pm #1072653
Pro-21ParticipantI’d agree. When it results in a win, its awesome. When it doesn’t, its a stupid hero ball. People look at Kyrie Irving’s numerous isos in the second half of game 4 and they don’t see his teammates standing still and LeBron passing up open jumpshots. If Kyrie doesn’t play hero ball, the cavs would’ve been blown out by 20 at halftime.
Westbrook is just a beast, but people want to blame him for OKC’s loss to GSW, after he’d near singlehandedly beated one of history’s greatest teams for two games. People forgot about the hustle, the pressuring on the GSW defense by relentlessly attacking the paint and getting buckets or open shots for teammates. They forgot his rebounding and defense and scoring. Curry had the advantage of sitting on the bench. Westbrook is just an amazing player and he should be regarded as a legend by the end of it all.
I’d say Kyrie with his quickness, body control and scoring ability, reminds me of a less physically overwhelming but better jumpshooting Derrick Rose, maybe without quite the court vision.
26 ppg with 6.5 assists on high effiency is very possible. Maybe he just needs to get used to playing faster, making quicker decisions and continuing to improve on defense.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 3:29pm #1072767
Pro-21ParticipantI’d agree. When it results in a win, its awesome. When it doesn’t, its a stupid hero ball. People look at Kyrie Irving’s numerous isos in the second half of game 4 and they don’t see his teammates standing still and LeBron passing up open jumpshots. If Kyrie doesn’t play hero ball, the cavs would’ve been blown out by 20 at halftime.
Westbrook is just a beast, but people want to blame him for OKC’s loss to GSW, after he’d near singlehandedly beated one of history’s greatest teams for two games. People forgot about the hustle, the pressuring on the GSW defense by relentlessly attacking the paint and getting buckets or open shots for teammates. They forgot his rebounding and defense and scoring. Curry had the advantage of sitting on the bench. Westbrook is just an amazing player and he should be regarded as a legend by the end of it all.
I’d say Kyrie with his quickness, body control and scoring ability, reminds me of a less physically overwhelming but better jumpshooting Derrick Rose, maybe without quite the court vision.
26 ppg with 6.5 assists on high effiency is very possible. Maybe he just needs to get used to playing faster, making quicker decisions and continuing to improve on defense.
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- Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 2:41pm #1072761
OhCanada-ParticipantOffensively he performs like a more controlled and less productive Russell Westbrook. It may not always be in the flow of the offense but it is effective and helps his team win.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 3:41pm #1072660
VRod305ParticipantIf they lose, LeBron is going to realize it doesn’t work and trade him. He can’t trade Love (that was a really, really dumb contract), so he’ll trade Irving and some dumb team will take him.
Secretary: "LeBron, I have Vlade Divac on Line 1, he wants to make a trade."
Vlade: "I’ll give you Darren Collison, our next three first round picks that we haven’t already given away and I’ll throw in five more pick swaps because I’m a nice guy."
LeBron: Thanks bro, I would have just taken Collison. Good luck in the lottery.
Hangs up.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 3:41pm #1072775
VRod305ParticipantIf they lose, LeBron is going to realize it doesn’t work and trade him. He can’t trade Love (that was a really, really dumb contract), so he’ll trade Irving and some dumb team will take him.
Secretary: "LeBron, I have Vlade Divac on Line 1, he wants to make a trade."
Vlade: "I’ll give you Darren Collison, our next three first round picks that we haven’t already given away and I’ll throw in five more pick swaps because I’m a nice guy."
LeBron: Thanks bro, I would have just taken Collison. Good luck in the lottery.
Hangs up.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:40pm #1072679
bloodshyParticipantwhat about D? Offensively, I agree with everything said. He’s at least a fringe superstar on O. But can a player really be a superstar when he is a liability defensively? I’m not sure.
0- Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:50pm #1072683
Pro-21ParticipantI think he can be an adequate defender. In the 2014-2015 season he was a pretty adequate defender, especially man-to-man. He’s also done a great job on Curry this series. If the cavs get a legit rim protector, his defense won’t be a problem at all. I think he’s a superstar offensively.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:50pm #1072797
Pro-21ParticipantI think he can be an adequate defender. In the 2014-2015 season he was a pretty adequate defender, especially man-to-man. He’s also done a great job on Curry this series. If the cavs get a legit rim protector, his defense won’t be a problem at all. I think he’s a superstar offensively.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:50pm #1072685
Pro-21ParticipantI think he can be an adequate defender. In the 2014-2015 season he was a pretty adequate defender, especially man-to-man. He’s also done a great job on Curry this series. If the cavs get a legit rim protector, his defense won’t be a problem at all. I think he’s a superstar offensively.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:50pm #1072799
Pro-21ParticipantI think he can be an adequate defender. In the 2014-2015 season he was a pretty adequate defender, especially man-to-man. He’s also done a great job on Curry this series. If the cavs get a legit rim protector, his defense won’t be a problem at all. I think he’s a superstar offensively.
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- Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:40pm #1072793
bloodshyParticipantwhat about D? Offensively, I agree with everything said. He’s at least a fringe superstar on O. But can a player really be a superstar when he is a liability defensively? I’m not sure.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:48pm #1072681
Hype MachinePG is the leagues deepest position. It seems at least 15 teams have a PG that could make the difference on any given night.
Irvings a nice player, but is he really better than Lillard, Westbrook, Wall, Curry, Paul etc.
Then theres a whole second tier that isnt even that far behind the All Star guys too. If Reggie Jackson or Kyle Lowry outplayed Irving…I wouldnt be surprised.
Hes just one of many great PGs so in my opinion he doesnt stand out as being a ‘superstar’. Gotta be at least top 3-5 at your position for that.
0- Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 6:04pm #1072692
Pro-21ParticipantKyrie thoroughly outplayed both Reggie Jackson and Kyle Lowry in this year’s playoffs. I wouldn’t call damian lillard a superstar, but he did make 2nd team all nba with kevin durant and chris paul. He’s essentially a less efficient, less creative Kyrie with maybe a bit more court vision.
Kyrie is definitely not better than Westbrook, Curry or Paul, but all of them should end up as top 25-30 players at minimum, given their statistics and accomplishments. Westbrook led the league in scoring last year and finished second or third in assists this year (like 10.5 assists a game) and is probably the best rebounding point guard ever. He might break the record for triple doubles.
Chris Paul has the highest career PER for any point guard in history and is also an elite defender. Curry is the greatest shooter of all time and just had a historic season. Point guards are simply better now than they’ve ever been.
Really I think, 1. Curry/Westbrook 2. Westbrook/Curry 3. CP3 4. Kyrie 5. John Wall/Damian Lillard
He’s put together a better playoff run then either Wall, Lillard or Kyle Lowry, and he’s two years younger than Wall or Lillard. Also, I doubt Lillard or Wall or Lowry would often be the best player on the floor with a player like LeBron.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 6:04pm #1072806
Pro-21ParticipantKyrie thoroughly outplayed both Reggie Jackson and Kyle Lowry in this year’s playoffs. I wouldn’t call damian lillard a superstar, but he did make 2nd team all nba with kevin durant and chris paul. He’s essentially a less efficient, less creative Kyrie with maybe a bit more court vision.
Kyrie is definitely not better than Westbrook, Curry or Paul, but all of them should end up as top 25-30 players at minimum, given their statistics and accomplishments. Westbrook led the league in scoring last year and finished second or third in assists this year (like 10.5 assists a game) and is probably the best rebounding point guard ever. He might break the record for triple doubles.
Chris Paul has the highest career PER for any point guard in history and is also an elite defender. Curry is the greatest shooter of all time and just had a historic season. Point guards are simply better now than they’ve ever been.
Really I think, 1. Curry/Westbrook 2. Westbrook/Curry 3. CP3 4. Kyrie 5. John Wall/Damian Lillard
He’s put together a better playoff run then either Wall, Lillard or Kyle Lowry, and he’s two years younger than Wall or Lillard. Also, I doubt Lillard or Wall or Lowry would often be the best player on the floor with a player like LeBron.
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- Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:48pm #1072795
Hype MachinePG is the leagues deepest position. It seems at least 15 teams have a PG that could make the difference on any given night.
Irvings a nice player, but is he really better than Lillard, Westbrook, Wall, Curry, Paul etc.
Then theres a whole second tier that isnt even that far behind the All Star guys too. If Reggie Jackson or Kyle Lowry outplayed Irving…I wouldnt be surprised.
Hes just one of many great PGs so in my opinion he doesnt stand out as being a ‘superstar’. Gotta be at least top 3-5 at your position for that.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:54pm #1072687
halfdecayedParticipantlolllllll. See Stephen Curry bro! He’s lucky his teammates are so good at hiding his defense!
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 5:54pm #1072802
halfdecayedParticipantlolllllll. See Stephen Curry bro! He’s lucky his teammates are so good at hiding his defense!
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 6:31pm #1072696
benny15Participanti dont really care that much on the argument that kyrie is only winning now cause of lebron. lets say there is truth to that, does it matter a whole lot? kyrie is still a big part of why they are winning. his ability to score to score from the outside, pull up or get to the rim with great finishing ability is every bit helping his team win games. almost every good team need multiple players to bring different things on the table to get the W, and scoring is generally what kyrie brings.
now do i think a guy like damian lillard is better than irving, yes. do i think lillard has done more with a simillar supporting cast to what kyrie had in the past, yes. does any of these take away from the fact that irving is being one of the better scorers in the league, no it does not. does any of it take out how important kyrie is to the cavs, no it does not.
to me theres nothing wrong with kyrie being a very good offensive player who is an ideal compliment to lebron and a huge part of a back to back eastern conference champion team.
0 - Posted on: Sun, 06/12/2016 - 6:31pm #1072810
benny15Participanti dont really care that much on the argument that kyrie is only winning now cause of lebron. lets say there is truth to that, does it matter a whole lot? kyrie is still a big part of why they are winning. his ability to score to score from the outside, pull up or get to the rim with great finishing ability is every bit helping his team win games. almost every good team need multiple players to bring different things on the table to get the W, and scoring is generally what kyrie brings.
now do i think a guy like damian lillard is better than irving, yes. do i think lillard has done more with a simillar supporting cast to what kyrie had in the past, yes. does any of these take away from the fact that irving is being one of the better scorers in the league, no it does not. does any of it take out how important kyrie is to the cavs, no it does not.
to me theres nothing wrong with kyrie being a very good offensive player who is an ideal compliment to lebron and a huge part of a back to back eastern conference champion team.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/13/2016 - 3:50am #1072754
TWILL123ParticipantI have seen nothing out of Kyrie to make me think he is better than Damian Lillard.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/13/2016 - 3:50am #1072868
TWILL123ParticipantI have seen nothing out of Kyrie to make me think he is better than Damian Lillard.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/13/2016 - 4:40am #1072768
Untouchable JParticipantI came into this year thinking it ws Kyrie>Wall> Lillard
Now? Lillard is a bad man. I’ll put him over both now. Wall and Kyrie are even. Wall is low key the only elite true pg left in the league not named Paul. He needs help for people to see how good he really is
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/13/2016 - 4:40am #1072881
Untouchable JParticipantI came into this year thinking it ws Kyrie>Wall> Lillard
Now? Lillard is a bad man. I’ll put him over both now. Wall and Kyrie are even. Wall is low key the only elite true pg left in the league not named Paul. He needs help for people to see how good he really is
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/13/2016 - 10:43am #1072983
BiggysmallsParticipantI don’t really like Irving, but I don’t really dislike him either. He hasn’t been the player I thought he’d be coming out of college.
I will say this though: that dude can finish. Some of those layups he makes driving and throwing up against bigs at the rim are unbelievable. The amount of english he puts on the ball, and the touch he has, it’s maddening because I don’t want the Cavs to win, but its awe-inspiring because as many have said, he’s not a freak athlete and he’s not incredibly strong. That’s just damn impressive.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 06/13/2016 - 10:43am #1072869
BiggysmallsParticipantI don’t really like Irving, but I don’t really dislike him either. He hasn’t been the player I thought he’d be coming out of college.
I will say this though: that dude can finish. Some of those layups he makes driving and throwing up against bigs at the rim are unbelievable. The amount of english he puts on the ball, and the touch he has, it’s maddening because I don’t want the Cavs to win, but its awe-inspiring because as many have said, he’s not a freak athlete and he’s not incredibly strong. That’s just damn impressive.
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