Jamal Murray the #2 pick

 & it def depends on who is Drafting…… but if, for example, Phila falls to #3 – I would Def take Murray ….. We have to keep in mind that the NBA & the NCAA are Worlds apart…… look at how quickly Portland has turned it around b/c they have 3 lights out shooters at PG & SG…….

Boston & Toronto are #2 & #3 in the East & Neither has an All Star presence in the paint….. But both teams have Guards who can fill it up & get to the line….. We are witnessing a Sea Change at the NBA level…. Rondo can still rack up stats but teams absolutely dare him to shoot & his Inability to shoot really handicaps his team’s offense…… Look how much Traditionally Athletic but poor shooting PG’s are struggling to lead teams to wins in this league……..

And that’s why I’d keep Ingram at #2 b/c he can really fill it up….. but Murray, Ingram, Hield & all these players who can really shoot will be more & more valuable…. Whereas players like Kris Dunn & Jaylen Brown who are Crazy athletic are slipping just a bit…..

 & it def depends on who is Drafting…… but if, for example, Phila falls to #3 – I would Def take Murray ….. We have to keep in mind that the NBA & the NCAA are Worlds apart…… look at how quickly Portland has turned it around b/c they have 3 lights out shooters at PG & SG…….

Boston & Toronto are #2 & #3 in the East & Neither has an All Star presence in the paint….. But both teams have Guards who can fill it up & get to the line….. We are witnessing a Sea Change at the NBA level…. Rondo can still rack up stats but teams absolutely dare him to shoot & his Inability to shoot really handicaps his team’s offense…… Look how much Traditionally Athletic but poor shooting PG’s are struggling to lead teams to wins in this league……..

And that’s why I’d keep Ingram at #2 b/c he can really fill it up….. but Murray, Ingram, Hield & all these players who can really shoot will be more & more valuable…. Whereas players like Kris Dunn & Jaylen Brown who are Crazy athletic are slipping just a bit…..

 If he has a solid tournament and Kentucky goes deep you can make a case for him being #2.  Hes been balling though, Ingram still the favourite though based on his potential as a dynamic scorer, but Murray can fill it up. March Madness!!!! Babyyy. 

 If he has a solid tournament and Kentucky goes deep you can make a case for him being #2.  Hes been balling though, Ingram still the favourite though based on his potential as a dynamic scorer, but Murray can fill it up. March Madness!!!! Babyyy. 

 Ingram is a year younger than the rest of the freshman class. He has shown a lot of growth but I would agree that he is in no way a lock at #2.

 Jamaal has been amazing and is now starting to get comfortable with his role off the ball. Imagine if he was playing as the primary ball handler.

 Ingram is a year younger than the rest of the freshman class. He has shown a lot of growth but I would agree that he is in no way a lock at #2.

 Jamaal has been amazing and is now starting to get comfortable with his role off the ball. Imagine if he was playing as the primary ball handler.

Hype Machine – If he was born in Australia would he be considered for the no 1 overall pick ?

On a serious note, you are onto something here. Us in the know who have been following him (including you), have had him in the top 5 for the past 6-8 weeks while this and the other draft site were fast asleep and had him at 9 or 10.

Reminds me of a few years ago when Dipo made a run up the mock boards……

Hype Machine – If he was born in Australia would he be considered for the no 1 overall pick ?

On a serious note, you are onto something here. Us in the know who have been following him (including you), have had him in the top 5 for the past 6-8 weeks while this and the other draft site were fast asleep and had him at 9 or 10.

Reminds me of a few years ago when Dipo made a run up the mock boards……

 I really like Jamal Murray and I think he is the player in the top ten who will improve his stock the most during the tournament. That being said, at this point I would still take Ingram and Simmons ahead of him. Both I think have the skills and athleticism to become top ten players in the league eventually. I could see Murray becoming a multiple all-star, but I do not think he will become an elite player. 

On another note, as much as people have bashed it, this draft has plenty of good players. I could see Murray, Brown, Dunn, and Poeltl all make multiple all-star teams and both Ingram and Simmons could be franchise players.

 I really like Jamal Murray and I think he is the player in the top ten who will improve his stock the most during the tournament. That being said, at this point I would still take Ingram and Simmons ahead of him. Both I think have the skills and athleticism to become top ten players in the league eventually. I could see Murray becoming a multiple all-star, but I do not think he will become an elite player. 

On another note, as much as people have bashed it, this draft has plenty of good players. I could see Murray, Brown, Dunn, and Poeltl all make multiple all-star teams and both Ingram and Simmons could be franchise players.

 Murray has a "meh" handle, but he does move great without the ball and is not scared to shoot.

 Murray has a "meh" handle, but he does move great without the ball and is not scared to shoot.

 I think Simmons is a near lock at #1. Ingram could go 1st, likely 2nd, conceivably 3rd. I think Jaylen Brown is more likely to go 2nd than Murray, but only slightly more likely. I really think Brown goes 3rd. 4th pick could be tons of different people, but I like Murray (most likely) or Hield. Someone might grab Dunn there if they need a true PG. I think Murray is way better, but I think the NBA would use him as a SG for sure (bummer). I’m withholding judgment on Dragan Bender. I can’t find recent footage that shows me what everyone is talking about. You really need to see a full recent game when it comes to big Euro guys. 

 I think Simmons is a near lock at #1. Ingram could go 1st, likely 2nd, conceivably 3rd. I think Jaylen Brown is more likely to go 2nd than Murray, but only slightly more likely. I really think Brown goes 3rd. 4th pick could be tons of different people, but I like Murray (most likely) or Hield. Someone might grab Dunn there if they need a true PG. I think Murray is way better, but I think the NBA would use him as a SG for sure (bummer). I’m withholding judgment on Dragan Bender. I can’t find recent footage that shows me what everyone is talking about. You really need to see a full recent game when it comes to big Euro guys. 

My point was to judge all of these guys on the same plateau, which I did not feel was being done for the most part. However, I never in any way mentioned anything about Brandon Ingram’s motor, plus at this point I think Simmons and Ingram at 1/2, in that order. As much as it is up for debate and discussion until it actually goes down, I think Ingram plays with a lot of energy, plus he plays like a guard, not like a ridiculously tall guy with guard skills. Much less, he has been asked to play point forward and guard bigger players, he has been challenged and has done a great job of living up to it.

I can absolutely see Ingram being a combo wing at the next level, with his combination of height, length and reach being pretty strong for a PF (6’9, 7-3 at least, 9’1.5 measurement at Hoop Summit). Even if he has struggled shooting at times, their are things he has you just cannot teach and given everything he has had to do, I think he is absolutely the favorite to go 2nd. 

One thing I unfortunately left out, that I thought I had put in my original post that was at least misinterpreted at least in terms of his "motor", was that I definitely believe that Duke’s system is one of the things limited Ingram’s transition possessions. For one, 18.5% of Jabari Parker’s plays are in transition now, as opposed to 11.9% when he was at Duke (they ranked 276th out of 351 teams in transition possessions per game, with it making up 12.7% of their offensive possessions).

This year, Duke is 282nd, with it being at 13.1%, while LSU is at 21.4% and 16th in the nation. Ingram actually has been very efficient in transition, he just gets much fewer opportunities, which I think will pick up in the NBA. Though, obviously, Simmons should still continue to excel and get many more opportunities to do so.

If anything, Ingram’s offensive efficiency in the half court is what is making people see him as a viable candidate to dethrone Simmons at the top of the draft. He is a great (yes, great) spot-up shooter and also has excelled in iso situations. The ability to both shoot of the catch and create his own shots, given his ridiculous physical attributes, are what lead many to see him becoming an absolute stud in due time. At just 18, one should expect speed bumps, but he has had an impressive body of work and has the makings of a complete match-up nightmare on the wing.

The reason I still have Ben Simmons at the top spot is not only that I see him becoming a match-up nightmare as well, but he also has incredible speed and strength. I think Ingram may actually have him beat in lateral movement and should be more proficient guarding the wing, with his length of course besting Simmons by three inches or so, with Simmons also having a reported 8’11 reach which is again less than Ingram.

Ingram still will absolutely need to add something to his body, and his being a year plus a couple months younger than Simmons will still never get him to Simmons stature there. One will point to Kevin Durant, but again something I point out is that, Kevin Durant was even more of a physical specimen than even Ingram. He was an offensive weapon, who also was grabbing a lot of rebounds and even blocking close to 2 shots per game. They will point to his success meaning strength is "overrated", but he is more of an exception than a rule.

When one talks about Durant not getting the ball at the end of the game, part of it may be Russell Westbrook, but another major part is his having issues with physical defense. He has improved a great deal, gotten much stronger, even developed some post moves to his arsenal, but physicality does still give him some issues. I think with Ingram, this will be even more so, with his likely measuring at sub 200 as opposed to the 215 KD measured at the combine.

Just as the original poster seems to have an affinity for his Australians, I was born in Canada (moved back to Portland, OR very recently) and am a big fan of Jamal Murray. His last 10 games have been fantastic, though I think in part that is BECAUSE he is playing off of the ball, not in spite of it. Jamal was always best at being a scoring guard. He has been fantastic coming off of screens and Tyler Ulis is absolutely a guy you want with the ball in his hands.

As much as I love Jamal’s attitude and have been very aware of how well he has played lately, it is still really difficult for me to say he will hop over Ingram. Jamal still is much more of a "combo" than a true point, but I really kind of always thought he would end up as a SG. He showed some signs of becoming more of a point, though his best attributes are as a scorer. Now, while he has been a big time scorer over the last while, he is still undersized for a 2 and his athleticism is still not top notch. If you have a couple wing players, who do you take between Murray and Ingram? Think the 6’9 guy with the insanely long arms has more upside, especially given just how much Ingram has going for him as a scorer as well.

Finally, can you stop saying that Deng Adel was the match-up that gave Brandon Ingram the most issues against Louisville? Because, he wasn’t. His turnovers were:

• Botched lob to Marshall Plumlee. Was actually not a bad pass, feel like Marshall should have had it. Ingram was guarded by Chinanu Onuaku on that one. Adel not on floor.
• Low Ingram pass off of Grayson Allen’s foot. No one was guarding inbound, Trey Lewis was guarding Allen.
• Derryck Thornton bad inbound pass to Ingram, defended well by Jaylen Johnson. Johnson falling out of bounds, throws it to Ingram, who than tries to save it, pass intercepted by Damion Lee. Adel not on floor.
• Ingram defended by Trey Lewis, throws a sloppy pass to Marshall Plumlee. Chinanu Onuaku may have tipped it as Marshall bumbles it, Damion Lee seems to get a hand on it as well before it winds up in the hands of: tada, Deng Adel! Closest he came to actually being responsible for an Ingram turnover.
• Donovan Mitchell and Trey Lewis trap Ingram just before half court, travel.
• Trey Lewis guarding Ingram close on right side of the floor, Ingram losing his footing as he picks up the ball as he is well defended, travel.
• Ingram catches at left side of floor as Raymond Spalding commits. Donovan Mitchell comes over and they both trap him with the baseline, throws a bad pass between two teammates picked off by Damion Lee. Deng Adel not on the floor.
• Ingram catches an inbounds pass by being very well guarded by Trey Lewis. Raymond Spalding comes over to help and when Ingram feels he has a lay-up, he loses the ball going up, Chinanu Onuaku catches it on the way down. Adel not on floor.
• Deng Adel picks Ingram up just past half court. He passes it to Chase Jeter, who hands it back off, Adel picks him up again and he cuts off baseline well, forces Ingram back outside. Marshall Plumlee sets a pick on him, Ray Spalding comes over on the switch, Spalding shuts down a look at the basket and Ingram takes steps, travel.
• Ingram inbounding, Louisville defended it really well. Adel is sort of playing rover, than comes over to defend Ingram as inbounder, though hardly impedes his pass. Ingram panics, tries to for whatever reason get it to Marshall Plumlee once again. Chinanu Onuaku, once again, impedes the pass, saves it while it is going out of bounds into the hands of: Deng Adel.

Now, I know defense is more than just turnovers, but Adel was only really defending a couple of his shots, both of which he did not even put his hand up, Ingram just missed. They played a lot of zone, did their usual press now and than, not exactly like Adel was "the Ingram stopper" in their game plan. So, don’t go overboard on that whole thing. You love your Aussies, we get it. No, you are not "under-hyping them". Think it is a bit overboard with the, "5 to 7 Australian first rounders in 2017", but, I can’t read the future. I can just say at present time, your perception of what Deng Adel did to Brandon Ingram in one game (as Ingram actually had 18 and 10 in the Duke win) is maybe not exactly what really happened.

My point was to judge all of these guys on the same plateau, which I did not feel was being done for the most part. However, I never in any way mentioned anything about Brandon Ingram’s motor, plus at this point I think Simmons and Ingram at 1/2, in that order. As much as it is up for debate and discussion until it actually goes down, I think Ingram plays with a lot of energy, plus he plays like a guard, not like a ridiculously tall guy with guard skills. Much less, he has been asked to play point forward and guard bigger players, he has been challenged and has done a great job of living up to it.

I can absolutely see Ingram being a combo wing at the next level, with his combination of height, length and reach being pretty strong for a PF (6’9, 7-3 at least, 9’1.5 measurement at Hoop Summit). Even if he has struggled shooting at times, their are things he has you just cannot teach and given everything he has had to do, I think he is absolutely the favorite to go 2nd. 

One thing I unfortunately left out, that I thought I had put in my original post that was at least misinterpreted at least in terms of his "motor", was that I definitely believe that Duke’s system is one of the things limited Ingram’s transition possessions. For one, 18.5% of Jabari Parker’s plays are in transition now, as opposed to 11.9% when he was at Duke (they ranked 276th out of 351 teams in transition possessions per game, with it making up 12.7% of their offensive possessions).

This year, Duke is 282nd, with it being at 13.1%, while LSU is at 21.4% and 16th in the nation. Ingram actually has been very efficient in transition, he just gets much fewer opportunities, which I think will pick up in the NBA. Though, obviously, Simmons should still continue to excel and get many more opportunities to do so.

If anything, Ingram’s offensive efficiency in the half court is what is making people see him as a viable candidate to dethrone Simmons at the top of the draft. He is a great (yes, great) spot-up shooter and also has excelled in iso situations. The ability to both shoot of the catch and create his own shots, given his ridiculous physical attributes, are what lead many to see him becoming an absolute stud in due time. At just 18, one should expect speed bumps, but he has had an impressive body of work and has the makings of a complete match-up nightmare on the wing.

The reason I still have Ben Simmons at the top spot is not only that I see him becoming a match-up nightmare as well, but he also has incredible speed and strength. I think Ingram may actually have him beat in lateral movement and should be more proficient guarding the wing, with his length of course besting Simmons by three inches or so, with Simmons also having a reported 8’11 reach which is again less than Ingram.

Ingram still will absolutely need to add something to his body, and his being a year plus a couple months younger than Simmons will still never get him to Simmons stature there. One will point to Kevin Durant, but again something I point out is that, Kevin Durant was even more of a physical specimen than even Ingram. He was an offensive weapon, who also was grabbing a lot of rebounds and even blocking close to 2 shots per game. They will point to his success meaning strength is "overrated", but he is more of an exception than a rule.

When one talks about Durant not getting the ball at the end of the game, part of it may be Russell Westbrook, but another major part is his having issues with physical defense. He has improved a great deal, gotten much stronger, even developed some post moves to his arsenal, but physicality does still give him some issues. I think with Ingram, this will be even more so, with his likely measuring at sub 200 as opposed to the 215 KD measured at the combine.

Just as the original poster seems to have an affinity for his Australians, I was born in Canada (moved back to Portland, OR very recently) and am a big fan of Jamal Murray. His last 10 games have been fantastic, though I think in part that is BECAUSE he is playing off of the ball, not in spite of it. Jamal was always best at being a scoring guard. He has been fantastic coming off of screens and Tyler Ulis is absolutely a guy you want with the ball in his hands.

As much as I love Jamal’s attitude and have been very aware of how well he has played lately, it is still really difficult for me to say he will hop over Ingram. Jamal still is much more of a "combo" than a true point, but I really kind of always thought he would end up as a SG. He showed some signs of becoming more of a point, though his best attributes are as a scorer. Now, while he has been a big time scorer over the last while, he is still undersized for a 2 and his athleticism is still not top notch. If you have a couple wing players, who do you take between Murray and Ingram? Think the 6’9 guy with the insanely long arms has more upside, especially given just how much Ingram has going for him as a scorer as well.

Finally, can you stop saying that Deng Adel was the match-up that gave Brandon Ingram the most issues against Louisville? Because, he wasn’t. His turnovers were:

• Botched lob to Marshall Plumlee. Was actually not a bad pass, feel like Marshall should have had it. Ingram was guarded by Chinanu Onuaku on that one. Adel not on floor.
• Low Ingram pass off of Grayson Allen’s foot. No one was guarding inbound, Trey Lewis was guarding Allen.
• Derryck Thornton bad inbound pass to Ingram, defended well by Jaylen Johnson. Johnson falling out of bounds, throws it to Ingram, who than tries to save it, pass intercepted by Damion Lee. Adel not on floor.
• Ingram defended by Trey Lewis, throws a sloppy pass to Marshall Plumlee. Chinanu Onuaku may have tipped it as Marshall bumbles it, Damion Lee seems to get a hand on it as well before it winds up in the hands of: tada, Deng Adel! Closest he came to actually being responsible for an Ingram turnover.
• Donovan Mitchell and Trey Lewis trap Ingram just before half court, travel.
• Trey Lewis guarding Ingram close on right side of the floor, Ingram losing his footing as he picks up the ball as he is well defended, travel.
• Ingram catches at left side of floor as Raymond Spalding commits. Donovan Mitchell comes over and they both trap him with the baseline, throws a bad pass between two teammates picked off by Damion Lee. Deng Adel not on the floor.
• Ingram catches an inbounds pass by being very well guarded by Trey Lewis. Raymond Spalding comes over to help and when Ingram feels he has a lay-up, he loses the ball going up, Chinanu Onuaku catches it on the way down. Adel not on floor.
• Deng Adel picks Ingram up just past half court. He passes it to Chase Jeter, who hands it back off, Adel picks him up again and he cuts off baseline well, forces Ingram back outside. Marshall Plumlee sets a pick on him, Ray Spalding comes over on the switch, Spalding shuts down a look at the basket and Ingram takes steps, travel.
• Ingram inbounding, Louisville defended it really well. Adel is sort of playing rover, than comes over to defend Ingram as inbounder, though hardly impedes his pass. Ingram panics, tries to for whatever reason get it to Marshall Plumlee once again. Chinanu Onuaku, once again, impedes the pass, saves it while it is going out of bounds into the hands of: Deng Adel.

Now, I know defense is more than just turnovers, but Adel was only really defending a couple of his shots, both of which he did not even put his hand up, Ingram just missed. They played a lot of zone, did their usual press now and than, not exactly like Adel was "the Ingram stopper" in their game plan. So, don’t go overboard on that whole thing. You love your Aussies, we get it. No, you are not "under-hyping them". Think it is a bit overboard with the, "5 to 7 Australian first rounders in 2017", but, I can’t read the future. I can just say at present time, your perception of what Deng Adel did to Brandon Ingram in one game (as Ingram actually had 18 and 10 in the Duke win) is maybe not exactly what really happened.

5 to 7 sounds conservative to me…I’m not gonna pretend that I watch more of these guys than the Don…so tell me which of these have what it takes?

Isaac Humphries – Standard Kentucky Business…1st round Lock

Thon Maker – How is this guy not in the lottery in this site? Nonethless hes a Lock

William McDowell White – Best PG in class – Lock

Deng Adel – 1 more season will make him a coveted 3&D guy….Borderline lock.

Dejan Vaseljevic – My favourite…Possibly as good offensively as Jamal Murray (Better in FIBA U17 champs) – Expect 15ppg and crazy 3pt barrages….Lock

Harry Froling – Basketball without Borders MVP despite stiff competiton – Seemingly a Lock

Tom Wilson & Jack White – Maybes….

5 to 7 sounds conservative to me…I’m not gonna pretend that I watch more of these guys than the Don…so tell me which of these have what it takes?

Isaac Humphries – Standard Kentucky Business…1st round Lock

Thon Maker – How is this guy not in the lottery in this site? Nonethless hes a Lock

William McDowell White – Best PG in class – Lock

Deng Adel – 1 more season will make him a coveted 3&D guy….Borderline lock.

Dejan Vaseljevic – My favourite…Possibly as good offensively as Jamal Murray (Better in FIBA U17 champs) – Expect 15ppg and crazy 3pt barrages….Lock

Harry Froling – Basketball without Borders MVP despite stiff competiton – Seemingly a Lock

Tom Wilson & Jack White – Maybes….

I like Dejan Vaseljevic too but am unsure as a pro as he is small to play SG, can he be a combo guard ? He has signed to play with Miami Hurricanes next season

I like Dejan Vaseljevic too but am unsure as a pro as he is small to play SG, can he be a combo guard ? He has signed to play with Miami Hurricanes next season

 Haven’t watched much of him but I like his style of play too.  I could be wrong, but kinda reminds me of Greivis Vasquez, one of my all time college faves.  What advantage does Murray have over Vasquez to warrent high draft pick ( serious question ) ?  

 Haven’t watched much of him but I like his style of play too.  I could be wrong, but kinda reminds me of Greivis Vasquez, one of my all time college faves.  What advantage does Murray have over Vasquez to warrent high draft pick ( serious question ) ?  

 They took the "rip through" move away and dont reward free throws for it anymore

 They took the "rip through" move away and dont reward free throws for it anymore

I would 100 percent take Murray over Ingram. I just don’t see anything all that special about Ingram. Both times I’ve watched him, he’s been garbage. Murray seems to be a natural scorer at either guard position. I’m on board at No. 2

I would 100 percent take Murray over Ingram. I just don’t see anything all that special about Ingram. Both times I’ve watched him, he’s been garbage. Murray seems to be a natural scorer at either guard position. I’m on board at No. 2

Jamal Murray averaging nearly 22ppg over his 3 games. Has scored 9+ points in all but 2 games this season.

 48 from Jamal Murray today