This topic contains 44 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by AvatarAvatar apb540 10 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #62064
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    Pro-21
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     At the height of his powers, how good of a player was Kobe Bryant? Where would he rank in today’s NBA, lets say, as of the end of last season (for an entire body of work to guage players)?

     

    Its hard to say how good he’d be considered, but his 2005-2006 run was absolutely incredible. He got the Lakers the 7th seed on a team with Lamar Odom as the second best player and the rest of the roster was just a bunch of fringe NBA players. 45 wins, 35 losses. Advanced metrics aren’t the kindest to Kobe, but a 28 PER is still excellent and he was shooting efficiently at a very high volume. How does Harden or Westbrook do on that Roster? We got a peek at westbrook last year, but he played with durant for like 20 games and he was injured for a good deal of the season and the west is harder now and his team is better than that lakers team. Its hard to say.

    I’m thinking Kobe would’ve been top 3 behind LeBron and Kobe. Davis I don’t think has proven he can take a team as far as a prime Kobe, and his team was much better.

     

    What you guys think?

     

     

     

     

     

     

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  • #1028731
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    Dazzling Dunks and Basketball Bloopers
    Participant

     His 2005-06 season was one of the best individually we’ve seen in NBA history imo. The way he was able to score the ball (and do so efficiently) with basically entire defenses geared up solely to stop him was something we haven’t seen since late 80s jordan in Chicago and havent seen since. He was far and away the best player in the league that season and the fact that he somehow came in 4th in the mvp voting is an absolute travesty.

    In his prime, Kobe was probably the most complete scorer in the history of the game, with virtually no weaknesses. He was also a tremendous all-around player who could absolutely make his teammates better and one of the best all-around defenders in the league when committed.  For about a 3 or 4 year stretch in the mid 2000s I would say he held the unofficial title of best player on the planet.

    Considering his peak wasn’t that long ago, I’m pretty certain he would be just as dominant today.

     

     

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  • #1028596
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    Dazzling Dunks and Basketball Bloopers
    Participant

     His 2005-06 season was one of the best individually we’ve seen in NBA history imo. The way he was able to score the ball (and do so efficiently) with basically entire defenses geared up solely to stop him was something we haven’t seen since late 80s jordan in Chicago and havent seen since. He was far and away the best player in the league that season and the fact that he somehow came in 4th in the mvp voting is an absolute travesty.

    In his prime, Kobe was probably the most complete scorer in the history of the game, with virtually no weaknesses. He was also a tremendous all-around player who could absolutely make his teammates better and one of the best all-around defenders in the league when committed.  For about a 3 or 4 year stretch in the mid 2000s I would say he held the unofficial title of best player on the planet.

    Considering his peak wasn’t that long ago, I’m pretty certain he would be just as dominant today.

     

     

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    • #1028631
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      ScarTissue98
      Participant

       than Kobe’s 35.4 ppg….      

       Kobe was Robbed of the MVP in 2005/06′ w/ 35.4 ppg & 45% FG% 

       I’ll put this in context…. Since 1970 when Willis Reed won the NBA MVP – ONLY One man has Averaged More than Kobe’s 35.4 ppg in 2006 & that was Michael Jordan w/ a 37.1 ppg average all the way back in 1987!!!

       In this Century – since the year 2000 No One has come close to 35+ ppg…. & ONLY 6 men have avg 30+ ppg in a season: Dwayne Wade & Tracy McGrady – ONCE each…… Lebron james & Kevin Durant – TWICE each…. & Kobe Bryant – THREE times & Allen Iverson – FOUR times….. 

      Steve Nash was a great player but he should have NEVER won an MVP…. Shaq was robbed in 2005 & Kobe was Robbed in 2006…. Kobe finished 4th in MVP voting that year which is the real joke…..

      Anyway, in this Century there is NO One – Not even Iverson or Durant got anywhere near 35.4 ppg – those are Jordan #’s….. Iverson’s best was 33.0 which was ALSO in 2006 (he received ZERO mvp votes & Durant’s was 32.0….. Let’s look back to the 30 years between 1970 – 1999

      Jordan finished w/ an Average of 30+ ppg EIGHT times! but Jordan only averaged more than Kobe’s 2006 35.4 ppg ONCE! & it was his 37.1 all the way back in 1986/87!

      Here is another Crazy stat – not since 1990! has anyone other than Jordan (& the 6 players mentioned above) averaged 30+ ppg when Karl Malone, Jordan & Barkley finished behind Magic Johnson for League MVP….

      Pre 1990 Dominque Wilkins (2x), Adrian Dantley (2x), Bernard King (1x), George Gervin (2x), Pete Maravich (1x), Bob McAdoo (3x), Rick Barry (1x), Kareem Abdul Jabbar (5x), Tiny Archibald (1x) 7 Jerry West (1x)….

      So in the NBA only 17 men have Averaged 30 plus Points per game for a Whole season…. 29.9 does NOT count…. I included ONLY men who legitimately averaged 30.0 & Up!

       

       

       

       

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      • #1028637
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        Pro-21
        Participant

         Durant averaged 32 while shooting over 50% from the field compared to Kobe’s 45% … Durant could have pretty easily topped 35 ppg, even in an era where people average less points per game (for reasons i don’t quite understand).

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        • #1028698
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          ScarTissue98
          Participant

           Shooting %’s decrease as volume increases – this is why successful volume shooters are so very rare….. Durant’s Shooting %’s were slightly higher ewhen his scoring average was lower…. 51% & 52% vs 50%…… Kobe had the same pattern 46% & 47% in the next 2 years after his 35.4 ppg 45% mark… & even Jordan who shot 48% while scoring 37.1 ppg, shot a higher % in the next few years after the crazy number – 53% & 52%

          This is why the 36 minute stat is meaningless as well…. increased volume whether it be shots or minutes is NOT directly proportional with results…. In fact it Inversely proportional….. 

          & this makes more sense when you think about… Not everyone functions at the same levels….. So measurments compared to a mean are quite innacurate…. If a player functions a certain level a higher workload will diminish him…. Especially when we see a trend over 82 games… What his stats bare are his production at equilibriam…. 

          This is why Kobe’s 35.4 at 45% is definitely more impressive than K.D.’s 32.1 ppg at 50% 

           

           

           

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          • #1028898
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            Pro-21
            Participant

             Idk about definitely more impressive … fact is, KD is a more lethal 3point shooter than Kobe ever was, and he can get his shot off even more easily. I don’t think KD’s ppg would be lower if put in the same circumstances, but its debatable. 

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          • #1029033
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            Pro-21
            Participant

             Idk about definitely more impressive … fact is, KD is a more lethal 3point shooter than Kobe ever was, and he can get his shot off even more easily. I don’t think KD’s ppg would be lower if put in the same circumstances, but its debatable. 

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        • #1028833
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          ScarTissue98
          Participant

           Shooting %’s decrease as volume increases – this is why successful volume shooters are so very rare….. Durant’s Shooting %’s were slightly higher ewhen his scoring average was lower…. 51% & 52% vs 50%…… Kobe had the same pattern 46% & 47% in the next 2 years after his 35.4 ppg 45% mark… & even Jordan who shot 48% while scoring 37.1 ppg, shot a higher % in the next few years after the crazy number – 53% & 52%

          This is why the 36 minute stat is meaningless as well…. increased volume whether it be shots or minutes is NOT directly proportional with results…. In fact it Inversely proportional….. 

          & this makes more sense when you think about… Not everyone functions at the same levels….. So measurments compared to a mean are quite innacurate…. If a player functions a certain level a higher workload will diminish him…. Especially when we see a trend over 82 games… What his stats bare are his production at equilibriam…. 

          This is why Kobe’s 35.4 at 45% is definitely more impressive than K.D.’s 32.1 ppg at 50% 

           

           

           

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      • #1028773
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        Pro-21
        Participant

         Durant averaged 32 while shooting over 50% from the field compared to Kobe’s 45% … Durant could have pretty easily topped 35 ppg, even in an era where people average less points per game (for reasons i don’t quite understand).

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    • #1028767
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      ScarTissue98
      Participant

       than Kobe’s 35.4 ppg….      

       Kobe was Robbed of the MVP in 2005/06′ w/ 35.4 ppg & 45% FG% 

       I’ll put this in context…. Since 1970 when Willis Reed won the NBA MVP – ONLY One man has Averaged More than Kobe’s 35.4 ppg in 2006 & that was Michael Jordan w/ a 37.1 ppg average all the way back in 1987!!!

       In this Century – since the year 2000 No One has come close to 35+ ppg…. & ONLY 6 men have avg 30+ ppg in a season: Dwayne Wade & Tracy McGrady – ONCE each…… Lebron james & Kevin Durant – TWICE each…. & Kobe Bryant – THREE times & Allen Iverson – FOUR times….. 

      Steve Nash was a great player but he should have NEVER won an MVP…. Shaq was robbed in 2005 & Kobe was Robbed in 2006…. Kobe finished 4th in MVP voting that year which is the real joke…..

      Anyway, in this Century there is NO One – Not even Iverson or Durant got anywhere near 35.4 ppg – those are Jordan #’s….. Iverson’s best was 33.0 which was ALSO in 2006 (he received ZERO mvp votes & Durant’s was 32.0….. Let’s look back to the 30 years between 1970 – 1999

      Jordan finished w/ an Average of 30+ ppg EIGHT times! but Jordan only averaged more than Kobe’s 2006 35.4 ppg ONCE! & it was his 37.1 all the way back in 1986/87!

      Here is another Crazy stat – not since 1990! has anyone other than Jordan (& the 6 players mentioned above) averaged 30+ ppg when Karl Malone, Jordan & Barkley finished behind Magic Johnson for League MVP….

      Pre 1990 Dominque Wilkins (2x), Adrian Dantley (2x), Bernard King (1x), George Gervin (2x), Pete Maravich (1x), Bob McAdoo (3x), Rick Barry (1x), Kareem Abdul Jabbar (5x), Tiny Archibald (1x) 7 Jerry West (1x)….

      So in the NBA only 17 men have Averaged 30 plus Points per game for a Whole season…. 29.9 does NOT count…. I included ONLY men who legitimately averaged 30.0 & Up!

       

       

       

       

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  • #1028733
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    SkalAndJamal
    Participant

    Are you saying Kobe at his best is behind LeBron and Curry last year? Let me guess, you just finished school and you needed to roll a blunt and post something on draft.net.

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  • #1028597
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    SkalAndJamal
    Participant

    Are you saying Kobe at his best is behind LeBron and Curry last year? Let me guess, you just finished school and you needed to roll a blunt and post something on draft.net.

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    • #1028743
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      Pro-21
      Participant

       No. I’m saying Kobe would’ve been behind LeBron and KD, based on his 2013-2014 and when he was healthy, 2014-2015. LeBron did beat the warriors on their homecourt with a bad team, remember, I’m saying Kobe probably wasn’t quite better than LeBron was last year in terms of overall ability to carry horrible teams. LeBron is best ever at that. 

      Durant and Kobe that few years is really close in my book, despite Durant easily having the better advanced stats.

       

       

      LeBron has had MJ level dominance at times in his career, and going a level down is still roughly Kobe peak level. 

       

       

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    • #1028607
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      Pro-21
      Participant

       No. I’m saying Kobe would’ve been behind LeBron and KD, based on his 2013-2014 and when he was healthy, 2014-2015. LeBron did beat the warriors on their homecourt with a bad team, remember, I’m saying Kobe probably wasn’t quite better than LeBron was last year in terms of overall ability to carry horrible teams. LeBron is best ever at that. 

      Durant and Kobe that few years is really close in my book, despite Durant easily having the better advanced stats.

       

       

      LeBron has had MJ level dominance at times in his career, and going a level down is still roughly Kobe peak level. 

       

       

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      • #1028615
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        SkalAndJamal
        Participant

        Kobe in his peak would drop 40 on KD, and then lock his a** up. 

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        • #1028635
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          Pro-21
          Participant

           But would Kobe be a better franchise centerpiece than Durant? Very debatable. Who cares about one-on-one matchups?

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          • #1028639
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            SkalAndJamal
            Participant

             Would Kobe be a better franchise piece? That is not debatable lol. And 1-on-1 does matter cause usually the guy who wins the key match up did more to help his team win than the other guy did. if all 5 guys in the lineup win their matchup, 100% of the time that team wins.

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            • #1028649
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              Pro-21
              Participant

              Yes, it absolutely is debatable. Durant scores much more efficiently and is a solid defender. He does not need anywhere near as many shots as kobe does to get 30 points. He led the Thunder to 59 wins and 2nd overall seed in the incredibly competitive Western Conference w.out Russell Westbrook.

              One-on-one regular season matchups don’t matter, the playoffs do … and honestly, goodluck w. Kobe locking up KD. Peak LeBron played him as well as he could in 2012, and he still averaged 30 ppg on over 57% TS. 

               

              Kobe was basically throughly outplayed by LeBron in every single one of their matchups dating back to ’04. Durant’s match up against LeBron is a good deal more even than Kobe’s. 

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              • #1028899
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                SkalAndJamal
                Participant

                 Yeah yeah why hasnt Durant won sh!t if he’s so good? Well Kobe clearly doesnt need as much help to win than Durant. Durant wont even be the best player on his team anymore at OKC, and they are nowhere close to being title favorites. Kobe came out of the wild west 3 times and won two championships with Pau being he’s 2nd best player and Odom being his 3rd. This is no debate.

                LeBron is an overrated 1 on 1 defender, he’s very legit on the helpside and transition but one on one, he’s never been elite. dont give me the series vs bulls, Drose was playing 1 on 5 offensively.

                 

                 

                 

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              • #1028764
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                SkalAndJamal
                Participant

                 Yeah yeah why hasnt Durant won sh!t if he’s so good? Well Kobe clearly doesnt need as much help to win than Durant. Durant wont even be the best player on his team anymore at OKC, and they are nowhere close to being title favorites. Kobe came out of the wild west 3 times and won two championships with Pau being he’s 2nd best player and Odom being his 3rd. This is no debate.

                LeBron is an overrated 1 on 1 defender, he’s very legit on the helpside and transition but one on one, he’s never been elite. dont give me the series vs bulls, Drose was playing 1 on 5 offensively.

                 

                 

                 

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            • #1028785
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              Pro-21
              Participant

              Yes, it absolutely is debatable. Durant scores much more efficiently and is a solid defender. He does not need anywhere near as many shots as kobe does to get 30 points. He led the Thunder to 59 wins and 2nd overall seed in the incredibly competitive Western Conference w.out Russell Westbrook.

              One-on-one regular season matchups don’t matter, the playoffs do … and honestly, goodluck w. Kobe locking up KD. Peak LeBron played him as well as he could in 2012, and he still averaged 30 ppg on over 57% TS. 

               

              Kobe was basically throughly outplayed by LeBron in every single one of their matchups dating back to ’04. Durant’s match up against LeBron is a good deal more even than Kobe’s. 

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          • #1028775
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            SkalAndJamal
            Participant

             Would Kobe be a better franchise piece? That is not debatable lol. And 1-on-1 does matter cause usually the guy who wins the key match up did more to help his team win than the other guy did. if all 5 guys in the lineup win their matchup, 100% of the time that team wins.

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        • #1028771
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          Pro-21
          Participant

           But would Kobe be a better franchise centerpiece than Durant? Very debatable. Who cares about one-on-one matchups?

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      • #1028751
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        SkalAndJamal
        Participant

        Kobe in his peak would drop 40 on KD, and then lock his a** up. 

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    • #1028647
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      Scrooge McBuckets
      Participant

      Altho you did not ask me… I am around the same age as Kobe, grew up in Philly, followed and admired him. And I can tell you at no point was Kobe better player than Lebron… Ppl are too infatuated wit scoring numbers

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      • #1028652
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        Pro-21
        Participant

         I think LeBron was debatably as good a player as Kobe in ’06 at least, and most definitely better from ’07 on. He simp,ly do more with less, and always has … case in point, cleveland winning 66 games in 2010 w. Mo Williams as their second best player, or him going to the finals with an even worse team than that in 2007.

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      • #1028787
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        Pro-21
        Participant

         I think LeBron was debatably as good a player as Kobe in ’06 at least, and most definitely better from ’07 on. He simp,ly do more with less, and always has … case in point, cleveland winning 66 games in 2010 w. Mo Williams as their second best player, or him going to the finals with an even worse team than that in 2007.

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      • #1028901
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        SkalAndJamal
        Participant

        Kobe would kill the spurs while Tim, Tony and Manu were in their primes. If it wasnt for Ray Allen, LeBron would be 3-12 vs the old, way past their prime Spurs in the finals. This aint a debate. LeBron hasnt beaten many good teams in the playoffs.

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      • #1028766
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        SkalAndJamal
        Participant

        Kobe would kill the spurs while Tim, Tony and Manu were in their primes. If it wasnt for Ray Allen, LeBron would be 3-12 vs the old, way past their prime Spurs in the finals. This aint a debate. LeBron hasnt beaten many good teams in the playoffs.

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    • #1028783
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      Scrooge McBuckets
      Participant

      Altho you did not ask me… I am around the same age as Kobe, grew up in Philly, followed and admired him. And I can tell you at no point was Kobe better player than Lebron… Ppl are too infatuated wit scoring numbers

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  • #1028609
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    holefillers1
    Participant

     Kobe’s peak was Jordan with slightly worse shooting pct.  I remember watching him and thinking how no one man could stop him.  Sometimes no two men.  Best offensive player I have ever seen save a two year period when Tracy McGrady could do no wrong.

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    • #1028711
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      ScarTissue98
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       & I have seen them all…. excluding Centers not b/c they were better but they score differently….. But there have been a handful of players who for a time were simply unguardable….

      I’m not talking about over a career… I’m saying that for a year or two or three at their peak & in their prime these players were almost inhuman…..

      Dr. J – Julius Erving – Michael Jordan – Kobe Bryant……

      I can name so many other great Pure scorers: Tiny Archilbald, Pete Maravich, Bob McAdoo, Larry Bird, George Gervin, Elgin Baylor, Rick Barry, Allen Iverson, Kevin Durant, Dominque Wilkins, Bernard King, Oscar Robertson, Alex English, Karl Malone, Bob Pettit, Dwayne Wade….. I could name more players that were just unstoppable….

       but None of these Hall of Fame stars transcended the game the way Julius Erving & then Michael Jordan & then Kobe Bryant did…..

       

       

       

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    • #1028847
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      ScarTissue98
      Participant

       & I have seen them all…. excluding Centers not b/c they were better but they score differently….. But there have been a handful of players who for a time were simply unguardable….

      I’m not talking about over a career… I’m saying that for a year or two or three at their peak & in their prime these players were almost inhuman…..

      Dr. J – Julius Erving – Michael Jordan – Kobe Bryant……

      I can name so many other great Pure scorers: Tiny Archilbald, Pete Maravich, Bob McAdoo, Larry Bird, George Gervin, Elgin Baylor, Rick Barry, Allen Iverson, Kevin Durant, Dominque Wilkins, Bernard King, Oscar Robertson, Alex English, Karl Malone, Bob Pettit, Dwayne Wade….. I could name more players that were just unstoppable….

       but None of these Hall of Fame stars transcended the game the way Julius Erving & then Michael Jordan & then Kobe Bryant did…..

       

       

       

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    • #1028886
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      whiteflash
      Participant

       Mcgrady never Bryant’s handle, left hand, first step or ability to finish over/through people. 

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    • #1029021
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      whiteflash
      Participant

       Mcgrady never Bryant’s handle, left hand, first step or ability to finish over/through people. 

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  • #1028745
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    holefillers1
    Participant

     Kobe’s peak was Jordan with slightly worse shooting pct.  I remember watching him and thinking how no one man could stop him.  Sometimes no two men.  Best offensive player I have ever seen save a two year period when Tracy McGrady could do no wrong.

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  • #1028676
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    Hitster
    Participant

     Statisically and successwise Kobe has been as good as anyone in the last 25-30 years as anyone bar MJ in my opinion. 

    The one telling fact about how good Kobe was considered that for year’s on the NBA GM survey he was voted the guy you wanted taking the last shot of a game when you need a basket to win etc. He won this category for several years when LBJ was ranked a better player than him but a crunch time they all wanted Kobe ball in hand.

    I was thinking Kobe put up a fairly nifty performance of 31 points in a game as a 37 year old but then discovered MJ dropped 50 points in a game at 38 years old and 40 points as a 40 year old.

     

     

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  • #1028812
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    Hitster
    Participant

     Statisically and successwise Kobe has been as good as anyone in the last 25-30 years as anyone bar MJ in my opinion. 

    The one telling fact about how good Kobe was considered that for year’s on the NBA GM survey he was voted the guy you wanted taking the last shot of a game when you need a basket to win etc. He won this category for several years when LBJ was ranked a better player than him but a crunch time they all wanted Kobe ball in hand.

    I was thinking Kobe put up a fairly nifty performance of 31 points in a game as a 37 year old but then discovered MJ dropped 50 points in a game at 38 years old and 40 points as a 40 year old.

     

     

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  • #1028719
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    ScarTissue98
    Participant

     that utterly could Not be stopped jordan was the standard….. I put him at #1….. So with Jordan in mind there are Only 2 players I ever saw who reminded me of Jordan & that was Dr.J & Kobe…..

     Dominque Wilkins was close be he lacked that alpha male "everyone get on my back & I’ll carry us by myself if I have to" gene…… But in 50 + years of watching the NBA Jordan, Dr.J & Kobe really stand alone IMHO…..

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  • #1028855
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    ScarTissue98
    Participant

     that utterly could Not be stopped jordan was the standard….. I put him at #1….. So with Jordan in mind there are Only 2 players I ever saw who reminded me of Jordan & that was Dr.J & Kobe…..

     Dominque Wilkins was close be he lacked that alpha male "everyone get on my back & I’ll carry us by myself if I have to" gene…… But in 50 + years of watching the NBA Jordan, Dr.J & Kobe really stand alone IMHO…..

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  • #1028884
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    whiteflash
    Participant

    Bryant’s peak is hard to quantify ’cause he shared most of it (Shaq, Gasol) and played in a non traditional system that blunted his numbers. With that, he’s HANDS DOWN the most advanced individual scorer the NBA has ever – and will ever – seen. 65 against the Blazers, 62 in 34 minutes against the Mavs, 56 in 33 minutes against the Griz, 81 against Toronto while bringing his team back from a 20 point deficit… Jordan to me is still the goat, but what Bryant did against modern NBA athletes with advanced defensive schemes and scouting reports designed with the sole intent on stopping him is absolutely mind blowing. If he’d have played in a traditional offense with iso’s, p&r’s, etc…. he would’ve put up 40 a game for a few seasons. Also, his 81 is the single most impressive individual performance in pro sports history to me. Wilt scored his hundo against 6’7, 190lb centers with no three seconds and no shot clock. He was great for his era but might literally not even make sn NBA squad today. Kobe’s 81 is so ridiculous it’s hard to put into words. What’s even crazier is he had three buckets waved off that game, so 81 could’ve been 86-88, and his big games against the Griz and Mavs were called after 3 quarters, so he easilt could have two other 80+ games. That’s insane to think about.

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  • #1029019
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    whiteflash
    Participant

    Bryant’s peak is hard to quantify ’cause he shared most of it (Shaq, Gasol) and played in a non traditional system that blunted his numbers. With that, he’s HANDS DOWN the most advanced individual scorer the NBA has ever – and will ever – seen. 65 against the Blazers, 62 in 34 minutes against the Mavs, 56 in 33 minutes against the Griz, 81 against Toronto while bringing his team back from a 20 point deficit… Jordan to me is still the goat, but what Bryant did against modern NBA athletes with advanced defensive schemes and scouting reports designed with the sole intent on stopping him is absolutely mind blowing. If he’d have played in a traditional offense with iso’s, p&r’s, etc…. he would’ve put up 40 a game for a few seasons. Also, his 81 is the single most impressive individual performance in pro sports history to me. Wilt scored his hundo against 6’7, 190lb centers with no three seconds and no shot clock. He was great for his era but might literally not even make sn NBA squad today. Kobe’s 81 is so ridiculous it’s hard to put into words. What’s even crazier is he had three buckets waved off that game, so 81 could’ve been 86-88, and his big games against the Griz and Mavs were called after 3 quarters, so he easilt could have two other 80+ games. That’s insane to think about.

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  • #1028916
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    apb540
    Participant

    To me Kobe didn’t really have a "peak" like some players do. He had some ups-and-downs like any human, but for the most part he played at a HOF level for the majority of his career. One of the best players to ever play the game of basketball.

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  • #1029051
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    apb540
    Participant

    To me Kobe didn’t really have a "peak" like some players do. He had some ups-and-downs like any human, but for the most part he played at a HOF level for the majority of his career. One of the best players to ever play the game of basketball.

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