This topic contains 34 replies, has 12 voices, and was last updated by AvatarAvatar tuck243 11 years, 6 months ago.

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  • #58688
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    rileymcshea3
    Participant

     Who are the top 10 PGs in the NBA right now?

    The talent level at point guard position in the NBA is at an Alltime high, but does any one know who is the best? 

    Chris Paul has been at the top ofthe list for several years now, but is he even the best player on his team? He’s down a assist and point per game this year.

    Steph Curry and Kyle Lowry are leading their teams to the best record in their Conferences.

    Westbrook is looking as explosive as ever coming back from his injury, speaking of injuries Rose can’t stay in the court.

    Tony Parker of course is staying low key even after winning a championship, Rondo quietly makes the Mavs one of the best teams in the NBA.

    Damian Lillard and Mike Conley have their teams in second and third in the West, while Wall has the Wizards above the Cavs in the standings where Kyrie aka Uncle Drew gets to play with LeBron and K-Love.

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  • #960083
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    Lotto Stud
    Participant

     Take it for what it’s worth to you, but Brandon Knight is holding down a pretty decent underrated season.

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  • #960219
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    Lotto Stud
    Participant

     Take it for what it’s worth to you, but Brandon Knight is holding down a pretty decent underrated season.

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  • #960085
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    Pacers_Fan33
    Participant

    1. Chris Paul – taking slightly smaller role as he grows older but for my money he is the perfect guy to run a team and orchestrate an offense

    2. Russell Westbrook – too athletic, too talented, too aggressive at times, but who can actually guard him

    3. Stephen Curry – an awesome talent offensively and defensively

    4. John Wall – My lowkey pick for mvp this season

    5. Kyle Lowry – hands down the best player on a very good team, does it all for the raptors, good to see he found a team that would let him takeover

    6. Damian Lilliard – WOW, what a bright future in portland

    7. Derrick Rose – didnt want to put him this high for obvious reasons, but when he plays, you cannot deny his talent

    8. Tony Parker – Another guy I didnt wanna put this high, but you cant deny what he has done and is continuing to do on a yearly basis

    9. Jeff Teague – Point guard of a very very good atlanta hawks team, love watching this guy play, falls in the flow of the offense consistently, just a good player

    10. Kyrie Irving – after the last two years, i really thought he would be higher, but he is in a tough position, going from a score first point guard to a 2nd, sometimes 3rd option

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

      

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    • #960089
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      Lotto Stud
      Participant

      "4. John Wall – My lowkey pick for mvp this season"

      I’m actually happy to see the transition of his change in pace. There are times to where he needs to push the ball full-tilt and he doesn’t, but I don’t throw too much shade on it, because it’s growth in leadership.

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    • #960225
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      Lotto Stud
      Participant

      "4. John Wall – My lowkey pick for mvp this season"

      I’m actually happy to see the transition of his change in pace. There are times to where he needs to push the ball full-tilt and he doesn’t, but I don’t throw too much shade on it, because it’s growth in leadership.

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    • #960257
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      King Calucha
      Participant

       Curry might have improved from terrible to decent on the defensive side. That’s not enough to call him an awesome talent defensively.

       

       

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    • #960121
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      King Calucha
      Participant

       Curry might have improved from terrible to decent on the defensive side. That’s not enough to call him an awesome talent defensively.

       

       

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  • #960221
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    Pacers_Fan33
    Participant

    1. Chris Paul – taking slightly smaller role as he grows older but for my money he is the perfect guy to run a team and orchestrate an offense

    2. Russell Westbrook – too athletic, too talented, too aggressive at times, but who can actually guard him

    3. Stephen Curry – an awesome talent offensively and defensively

    4. John Wall – My lowkey pick for mvp this season

    5. Kyle Lowry – hands down the best player on a very good team, does it all for the raptors, good to see he found a team that would let him takeover

    6. Damian Lilliard – WOW, what a bright future in portland

    7. Derrick Rose – didnt want to put him this high for obvious reasons, but when he plays, you cannot deny his talent

    8. Tony Parker – Another guy I didnt wanna put this high, but you cant deny what he has done and is continuing to do on a yearly basis

    9. Jeff Teague – Point guard of a very very good atlanta hawks team, love watching this guy play, falls in the flow of the offense consistently, just a good player

    10. Kyrie Irving – after the last two years, i really thought he would be higher, but he is in a tough position, going from a score first point guard to a 2nd, sometimes 3rd option

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

      

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  • #960097
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    B-ball fan
    Participant

     1. Stephen Curry – Just the most talented offensive guard in the game right now.  Deadly with the ball in his hands and deadly off-the-ball.  

    2. Russell Westbrook – Big jump in efficiency this season.  Getting to the rim way more than usual this season, which is really saying something.

    3. Chris Paul – Some off games this season, but is as productive and efficient as always.

    4. John Wall – To TO-prone and inconsistent a shooter to be moved higher, but is super important to his team and creates tons of offense.

    5. Damian Lillard -Ridiculously clutch and dangerous from everywhere on the floor.

    6. Kyle Lowry – I didn’t know if his jump last season was sustainable, but he is proving me wrong as the best player on the best team in the east.

    7. Kyrie Irving – LeBron really plays PG more of the time, but Kyrie is scoring super efficiently and has the 2nd lowest TO rate of any starting PG in the league (after Kemba Walker).

    8. Tony Parker – Having TO-issues this season, but making a jump as a 3-point shooter.

    9. Jeff Teague – Key part of Atlanta’s rise.  May be benefitting from playing an easy schedule for a team with a lot of spacing.

    10. Derrick Rose – Inconsistent early in the season, but deadly in his good games.  His production will be key for Chicago in the postseason, as the Bulls have been much better this season with Rose in the lineup.

    Honorable Mentions: Mike Conley, Jr. – Benefits a lot from staying with the same core group of players for a while – and Ty Lawson, who has been getting tons of assists this season but is knocked for his team’s lack of success.

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  • #960233
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    B-ball fan
    Participant

     1. Stephen Curry – Just the most talented offensive guard in the game right now.  Deadly with the ball in his hands and deadly off-the-ball.  

    2. Russell Westbrook – Big jump in efficiency this season.  Getting to the rim way more than usual this season, which is really saying something.

    3. Chris Paul – Some off games this season, but is as productive and efficient as always.

    4. John Wall – To TO-prone and inconsistent a shooter to be moved higher, but is super important to his team and creates tons of offense.

    5. Damian Lillard -Ridiculously clutch and dangerous from everywhere on the floor.

    6. Kyle Lowry – I didn’t know if his jump last season was sustainable, but he is proving me wrong as the best player on the best team in the east.

    7. Kyrie Irving – LeBron really plays PG more of the time, but Kyrie is scoring super efficiently and has the 2nd lowest TO rate of any starting PG in the league (after Kemba Walker).

    8. Tony Parker – Having TO-issues this season, but making a jump as a 3-point shooter.

    9. Jeff Teague – Key part of Atlanta’s rise.  May be benefitting from playing an easy schedule for a team with a lot of spacing.

    10. Derrick Rose – Inconsistent early in the season, but deadly in his good games.  His production will be key for Chicago in the postseason, as the Bulls have been much better this season with Rose in the lineup.

    Honorable Mentions: Mike Conley, Jr. – Benefits a lot from staying with the same core group of players for a while – and Ty Lawson, who has been getting tons of assists this season but is knocked for his team’s lack of success.

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  • #960099
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    kazam
    Participant

    It is a very subjective question considering everyone may have different qualities they value in a lead guard. For me, the list would go as follows:

    1) Westbrook- I don’t think there is a player, let alone a point guard, as unguardable as Westbrook. He has comittted himself to d again this year and is back to being an elite two way guy. 

    2) Curry- He has been dominant on the O end this year, and improved defensively.

    3) Wall- Yes, I have Wall ahead of Chris Paul. Paul’s loss of athleticism has been a bit more pronounced this season as opposed to past years. Wall on the other hand, has played super efficiently, gets his teammates involved and is as disruptive a defender as there is.  

    4) Paul- Lost a step athletically, still a great play-maker and scorer when he wants to be. 

    5) Rose- If there was any doubt about D Rose it should be nearly erased after his last couple of games. He destroyed Lowry and the Raps in the 4th Q the other day. He’s on his way back to the top, slowly of course. 

    6) Mike Conley- Steady, solid defender and leader of his squad. Get’s everyone involved and makes big plays towards the end of games.

    7) Lowry- Lowry has consistently improved in his time in TO. I’ve been a critic of him in the past because he tends to put his head down, dribble until either he gets a shot or an assist. Seems to have improved trust in teammates this season though.

    8) Damian Lillard- Clutch, elite shooter. Needs to stay committed on D.

    9) Teague- He is an excellent defender, has improved as a playmaker and is leading the Hawks to a fantastic start.

    10) Irving- I’m not a fan of Kyrie because I don’t see him as a guy that really is interested in his teammates success. He has played well this year and it is certainly an adjustment period for him with newly acquired teammates. 

    Honorable Mention- Tony Parker and Brandon Knight. 

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    • #960113
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      TRC1991
      Participant

      Jeff Teague over Tony Parker…? What? Parker has multiple rings and if he played more minutes or for a non-elite team (like the Hawks) his stats would be mind-blowing 

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      • #960316
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        kazam
        Participant

        I can’t really disagree but this season you can argue for Teague, regardless of past accomplishments. If I was basing my rankings on past accomplishments D-Rose is the only guy on the list with an MVP, so shouldnt he be first? I was looking at more so this season only. 

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      • #960179
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        kazam
        Participant

        I can’t really disagree but this season you can argue for Teague, regardless of past accomplishments. If I was basing my rankings on past accomplishments D-Rose is the only guy on the list with an MVP, so shouldnt he be first? I was looking at more so this season only. 

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    • #960249
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      TRC1991
      Participant

      Jeff Teague over Tony Parker…? What? Parker has multiple rings and if he played more minutes or for a non-elite team (like the Hawks) his stats would be mind-blowing 

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  • #960235
    AvatarAvatar
    kazam
    Participant

    It is a very subjective question considering everyone may have different qualities they value in a lead guard. For me, the list would go as follows:

    1) Westbrook- I don’t think there is a player, let alone a point guard, as unguardable as Westbrook. He has comittted himself to d again this year and is back to being an elite two way guy. 

    2) Curry- He has been dominant on the O end this year, and improved defensively.

    3) Wall- Yes, I have Wall ahead of Chris Paul. Paul’s loss of athleticism has been a bit more pronounced this season as opposed to past years. Wall on the other hand, has played super efficiently, gets his teammates involved and is as disruptive a defender as there is.  

    4) Paul- Lost a step athletically, still a great play-maker and scorer when he wants to be. 

    5) Rose- If there was any doubt about D Rose it should be nearly erased after his last couple of games. He destroyed Lowry and the Raps in the 4th Q the other day. He’s on his way back to the top, slowly of course. 

    6) Mike Conley- Steady, solid defender and leader of his squad. Get’s everyone involved and makes big plays towards the end of games.

    7) Lowry- Lowry has consistently improved in his time in TO. I’ve been a critic of him in the past because he tends to put his head down, dribble until either he gets a shot or an assist. Seems to have improved trust in teammates this season though.

    8) Damian Lillard- Clutch, elite shooter. Needs to stay committed on D.

    9) Teague- He is an excellent defender, has improved as a playmaker and is leading the Hawks to a fantastic start.

    10) Irving- I’m not a fan of Kyrie because I don’t see him as a guy that really is interested in his teammates success. He has played well this year and it is certainly an adjustment period for him with newly acquired teammates. 

    Honorable Mention- Tony Parker and Brandon Knight. 

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  • #960105
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    TenSecondTom
    Participant

    1. Steph Curry – The deadliest shooter in the game just so happens to be a great passer and overall player. He has changed the way people think of point guards without getting away from the principle values of what someone running an offense ought to do. I think he remains at the top for a good 3-5 years just like CP3 did for a while.

    2. Chris Paul – He is starting a slow decline, yet he is exactly what you look for in a point guard. Has the ability to score and run an offense. Also, CP3 plays a good defensive game. Your team is bound to have some sort of success with CP3 on your team. 

    3. Russell Westbrook – Talent wise, there isn’t many people in the league that compare to Westbrook, yet I believe he falls short on some of the benchmarks required to be a "great" point guard. This has a lot to do with his shot selection and general basketball IQ. The irony is that this upredictableness that makes Westy so good is also his biggest weakness in certain circumstances. These circumstances are amplified due to the fact that Durant is his teammate. I think that this dynamic will keep Westbrook from reaching #1 status as a "point guard", but will make him an excellent player for the foreseeable future.

    4. John Wall – He is primed to jump into the top 3 shortly as he is developing areas of his game that were once his weakness. I think in terms of the idea of a "point guard" Wall will eventually jump into the top 2, due to the fact that his weaknesses are being developed in ways that Westbrook’s are innately synced into his game. Great all-around player and I hope he gets paired with another star because that tandem could be a force in the East. 

    5. Damian Lillard – The biggest knock on Lillard for me prior to this season was his inefficiency. He has shown to be much better in that department thus far, therefore I put him ahead of TP9 to round off the top 5. He is extremely clutch and a low maintenance player. This is something desired from a point guard, especially one that plays in a city like Portland. He exemplifies the new school point guard extremely well in that he can facilitate and create offense for himself.

    6. Tony Parker – This guy is a champion; someone who regardless of the matchup, will most likely have the advantage due to sheer basketball IQ and savyness. While he is entering a new stage of his career, it should be interesting to see how his game transforms as he loses the speed that allows him to penetrate better than any PG in the league.

    7. Kyle Lowry – As TP9 is on the decline, a guy like Lowry has the chance to sneak into the top 5. Not a flashy player such as Westbrook or Steph Curry, but can compete with them consistently. He is a leader, which is the no. 1 trait a PG ought to have.

    8. Kyrie Irving – While his talent warrants a higher spot on the list much like Westbrook, it is his intangibles that lower his position underneath guys who exemplify model PGs such as TP9, Lowry, and Wall. Doesn’t seem to make his teammates around him any better, and we have seen how this has played out this year with star wings such as Kobe and Carmelo Anthony. I think this trait is even more important with PGs, but Irving is lucky he has the player on his team who does this better than anyone in LeBron. Another player who can facilitate (when necessary), but looks to build his game around the fact that he is a threat to score at anytime. The protoypical PG in this generation.

    9. Mike Conley – The last two on the list are highly underrated in my opinion. This is mostly due to the fact that they aren’t necessarily the "go to guy" on their respective teams. Conley Jr. is a great defensive player and a point guard who can instantly jumpstart an offense. He does it with great basketbal IQ and a sense that all players on the court must be a threat to score at any time. Although talent wise he pales in comparison to guys like Westbrook and Irving, he is on their level because he plays the game like any coach would want their PG to.

    10. Goran Dragic – The only thing that has changed for the Dragon this year is that his usage rate is down, and he is not the dominant ball handler he was last year due to Thomas creating a logjam in the backcourt. Nevertheless, I will vouch for Gogi due to the fact that he is one of the most efficient guards in the game. He is still shooting 50% from the field while averaging 16 PPG. His 3pt % has risen after a dreadful start from behind the arc, but he embodies exactly what smart teams are looking for in a PG during this golden age.

    Key Exclusion

    Derrick Rose – Again, talent wise Rose is arguably a Top 5 PG even after his injury so it is hard to justify keeping him out of my top 10 but let me make my points. A point guard should be the most reliable player on the team, and due to health and sporadic play, Rose has prove (thusfar, it could change) that he will have his extended rough patches. Additionally, Rose hasn’t really contributed to the overall team effort as much as a point guard should (one could argue that Jimmy Butler has been the key cog that makes Chicago tick this year). While it wouldn’t suprise me if Rose proves my arguments invalid, I simply cannot trust that he will due to the fact that his health is deteriorating and his athleticism is the derivative that makes his game MVP or even All-Star caliber. In any other ERA, Rose would still be a Top 3 PG, but in these times, there are a slew of other PG’s I would trust with running my team than Derrick Rose.

    Honorable Mentions – Eric Bledsoe, Jeff Teague, Ricky Rubio, Ty Lawson.

     

     

      

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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  • #960241
    AvatarAvatar
    TenSecondTom
    Participant

    1. Steph Curry – The deadliest shooter in the game just so happens to be a great passer and overall player. He has changed the way people think of point guards without getting away from the principle values of what someone running an offense ought to do. I think he remains at the top for a good 3-5 years just like CP3 did for a while.

    2. Chris Paul – He is starting a slow decline, yet he is exactly what you look for in a point guard. Has the ability to score and run an offense. Also, CP3 plays a good defensive game. Your team is bound to have some sort of success with CP3 on your team. 

    3. Russell Westbrook – Talent wise, there isn’t many people in the league that compare to Westbrook, yet I believe he falls short on some of the benchmarks required to be a "great" point guard. This has a lot to do with his shot selection and general basketball IQ. The irony is that this upredictableness that makes Westy so good is also his biggest weakness in certain circumstances. These circumstances are amplified due to the fact that Durant is his teammate. I think that this dynamic will keep Westbrook from reaching #1 status as a "point guard", but will make him an excellent player for the foreseeable future.

    4. John Wall – He is primed to jump into the top 3 shortly as he is developing areas of his game that were once his weakness. I think in terms of the idea of a "point guard" Wall will eventually jump into the top 2, due to the fact that his weaknesses are being developed in ways that Westbrook’s are innately synced into his game. Great all-around player and I hope he gets paired with another star because that tandem could be a force in the East. 

    5. Damian Lillard – The biggest knock on Lillard for me prior to this season was his inefficiency. He has shown to be much better in that department thus far, therefore I put him ahead of TP9 to round off the top 5. He is extremely clutch and a low maintenance player. This is something desired from a point guard, especially one that plays in a city like Portland. He exemplifies the new school point guard extremely well in that he can facilitate and create offense for himself.

    6. Tony Parker – This guy is a champion; someone who regardless of the matchup, will most likely have the advantage due to sheer basketball IQ and savyness. While he is entering a new stage of his career, it should be interesting to see how his game transforms as he loses the speed that allows him to penetrate better than any PG in the league.

    7. Kyle Lowry – As TP9 is on the decline, a guy like Lowry has the chance to sneak into the top 5. Not a flashy player such as Westbrook or Steph Curry, but can compete with them consistently. He is a leader, which is the no. 1 trait a PG ought to have.

    8. Kyrie Irving – While his talent warrants a higher spot on the list much like Westbrook, it is his intangibles that lower his position underneath guys who exemplify model PGs such as TP9, Lowry, and Wall. Doesn’t seem to make his teammates around him any better, and we have seen how this has played out this year with star wings such as Kobe and Carmelo Anthony. I think this trait is even more important with PGs, but Irving is lucky he has the player on his team who does this better than anyone in LeBron. Another player who can facilitate (when necessary), but looks to build his game around the fact that he is a threat to score at anytime. The protoypical PG in this generation.

    9. Mike Conley – The last two on the list are highly underrated in my opinion. This is mostly due to the fact that they aren’t necessarily the "go to guy" on their respective teams. Conley Jr. is a great defensive player and a point guard who can instantly jumpstart an offense. He does it with great basketbal IQ and a sense that all players on the court must be a threat to score at any time. Although talent wise he pales in comparison to guys like Westbrook and Irving, he is on their level because he plays the game like any coach would want their PG to.

    10. Goran Dragic – The only thing that has changed for the Dragon this year is that his usage rate is down, and he is not the dominant ball handler he was last year due to Thomas creating a logjam in the backcourt. Nevertheless, I will vouch for Gogi due to the fact that he is one of the most efficient guards in the game. He is still shooting 50% from the field while averaging 16 PPG. His 3pt % has risen after a dreadful start from behind the arc, but he embodies exactly what smart teams are looking for in a PG during this golden age.

    Key Exclusion

    Derrick Rose – Again, talent wise Rose is arguably a Top 5 PG even after his injury so it is hard to justify keeping him out of my top 10 but let me make my points. A point guard should be the most reliable player on the team, and due to health and sporadic play, Rose has prove (thusfar, it could change) that he will have his extended rough patches. Additionally, Rose hasn’t really contributed to the overall team effort as much as a point guard should (one could argue that Jimmy Butler has been the key cog that makes Chicago tick this year). While it wouldn’t suprise me if Rose proves my arguments invalid, I simply cannot trust that he will due to the fact that his health is deteriorating and his athleticism is the derivative that makes his game MVP or even All-Star caliber. In any other ERA, Rose would still be a Top 3 PG, but in these times, there are a slew of other PG’s I would trust with running my team than Derrick Rose.

    Honorable Mentions – Eric Bledsoe, Jeff Teague, Ricky Rubio, Ty Lawson.

     

     

      

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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  • #960107
    AvatarAvatar
    he_gets_buckets
    Participant

     While I don’t think he is top 10 just yet, as Windy City said Brandon Knight should be getting more love in the honourable mention section. He’s lead a Bucks team that had rock bottom expectations coming in to a respectable record and has Milwaukee right in the thick of the Eastern Playoff race, and while he isn’t the purest point guard as of yet, I think he definitely is a guy to keep an eye on over the next few seasons.

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  • #960243
    AvatarAvatar
    he_gets_buckets
    Participant

     While I don’t think he is top 10 just yet, as Windy City said Brandon Knight should be getting more love in the honourable mention section. He’s lead a Bucks team that had rock bottom expectations coming in to a respectable record and has Milwaukee right in the thick of the Eastern Playoff race, and while he isn’t the purest point guard as of yet, I think he definitely is a guy to keep an eye on over the next few seasons.

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  • #960115
    AvatarAvatar
    rileymcshea3
    Participant

    Surpised Rondo didn’t make anyone’s list. I may be a little bias, but by the time the season ends Rondo will be at the lowest a top 7 PG.

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    • #960261
      AvatarAvatar
      TenSecondTom
      Participant

      Completely forgot about Rondo… Good call he’s definitely a top 10 PG.

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    • #960125
      AvatarAvatar
      TenSecondTom
      Participant

      Completely forgot about Rondo… Good call he’s definitely a top 10 PG.

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    • #960263
      AvatarAvatar
      TenSecondTom
      Participant

      Completely forgot about Rondo… Good call he’s definitely a top 10 PG.

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    • #960127
      AvatarAvatar
      TenSecondTom
      Participant

      Completely forgot about Rondo… Good call he’s definitely a top 10 PG.

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  • #960251
    AvatarAvatar
    rileymcshea3
    Participant

    Surpised Rondo didn’t make anyone’s list. I may be a little bias, but by the time the season ends Rondo will be at the lowest a top 7 PG.

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  • #960119
    AvatarAvatar
    rileymcshea3
    Participant

    My list goes

    1.Stephen Curry- If there was a league wide draft with every team starting from scratch, I’m starting my team with either Curry or Westbrook when looking at the PG position. Curry is a deadly and efficient scorer, that can make you pay for doubling him. A Nash type of PG that makes you choose from letting him or his teammates score. Unlike Nash he can play defense and rebound the ball.

    2.Russell Westbrook- So explosive, a force to be wreckin with on both sides of the court. His energy and relentlessness never gives opposing guards a off night. Only problem is his craziness can lead bad decision making and inefficient offense.

    3.Chris Paul-Still one of the best in the game, his IQ and copetiviness is tops in the league. So smooth of a game a true PG by all means. Lack of team success and age bring him down a few notches.

    4.John Wall-Starting to get MVP hype, really does have a huge impact on the game in every single way scoring, passing, rebounding,steals, blocks. 6’4 and one of the fastest PGs in the league, unlimited potential based on how good of a shooter he becomes. As of right now hasn’t proven much, and his jump shot is good, but needs to be better to become unstoppable like the names listed above.

    5. Kyle Lowry-Strong and quick with a great feel for the game like CP3. Leading the Raptors to best record in the East.

    6. Rajon Rondo- Best passer in the league, led the league in assist while playing with the lousy Celtics. Now he has Monta, Parsons, Dirk, and Tyson and to pass to. Like Shaq said “Last time Rondo had players to pass to he won a championship” by the end of this season Rondo will show he is still an elite PG.

    7. Damian Liliard- Inside and out scoring likes Curry, a little bit more athletic but Curry’s skills are on a level of his own. Great leader with a bright future, it will take a lot to make it out of the East and show how good he really is.

    8. Kyrie Irving- Some times he looks like a top 5 PG, sometimes he looks like a PG version of Melo (ball stopper). He is Allen Iverson trying to play with LeBron and K-Love. Once he learns how to share the ball with them,expect many Finals appearances in Cleveland.

    9.Derrick Rose- When “fully” ( before he tore his ACL) healthy he is the best PG in the NBA and an MVP type player. Only problem is that May never happen again, even after recovering from two torn ACLs he still has nagging injuries causing to miss many games.

    10. Tony Parker- The Title holder has of right now, always gets overlooked in the regular season, but his team always come out on top come playoff time.

    Just missed

    Mike Conley- Great leader and good player on both sides of the ball.

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  • #960255
    AvatarAvatar
    rileymcshea3
    Participant

    My list goes

    1.Stephen Curry- If there was a league wide draft with every team starting from scratch, I’m starting my team with either Curry or Westbrook when looking at the PG position. Curry is a deadly and efficient scorer, that can make you pay for doubling him. A Nash type of PG that makes you choose from letting him or his teammates score. Unlike Nash he can play defense and rebound the ball.

    2.Russell Westbrook- So explosive, a force to be wreckin with on both sides of the court. His energy and relentlessness never gives opposing guards a off night. Only problem is his craziness can lead bad decision making and inefficient offense.

    3.Chris Paul-Still one of the best in the game, his IQ and copetiviness is tops in the league. So smooth of a game a true PG by all means. Lack of team success and age bring him down a few notches.

    4.John Wall-Starting to get MVP hype, really does have a huge impact on the game in every single way scoring, passing, rebounding,steals, blocks. 6’4 and one of the fastest PGs in the league, unlimited potential based on how good of a shooter he becomes. As of right now hasn’t proven much, and his jump shot is good, but needs to be better to become unstoppable like the names listed above.

    5. Kyle Lowry-Strong and quick with a great feel for the game like CP3. Leading the Raptors to best record in the East.

    6. Rajon Rondo- Best passer in the league, led the league in assist while playing with the lousy Celtics. Now he has Monta, Parsons, Dirk, and Tyson and to pass to. Like Shaq said “Last time Rondo had players to pass to he won a championship” by the end of this season Rondo will show he is still an elite PG.

    7. Damian Liliard- Inside and out scoring likes Curry, a little bit more athletic but Curry’s skills are on a level of his own. Great leader with a bright future, it will take a lot to make it out of the East and show how good he really is.

    8. Kyrie Irving- Some times he looks like a top 5 PG, sometimes he looks like a PG version of Melo (ball stopper). He is Allen Iverson trying to play with LeBron and K-Love. Once he learns how to share the ball with them,expect many Finals appearances in Cleveland.

    9.Derrick Rose- When “fully” ( before he tore his ACL) healthy he is the best PG in the NBA and an MVP type player. Only problem is that May never happen again, even after recovering from two torn ACLs he still has nagging injuries causing to miss many games.

    10. Tony Parker- The Title holder has of right now, always gets overlooked in the regular season, but his team always come out on top come playoff time.

    Just missed

    Mike Conley- Great leader and good player on both sides of the ball.

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  • #960296
    AvatarAvatar
    Tioseco
    Participant

    It seems that the general consensus of the top 5 PGs today has more or less formed already this season. I remember how over the last year or so how everyone’s rankings around here for the PGs was really a mess with just different permutations of the same 10-12 players. It seems like some guys this season really have separated themselves from the pack to form the truly ‘elite’ tier. Here’s my list:

    1. Steph Curry – The most entertaining player in the NBA right now, also the best shooter. With his much improved finishing this season, there really is no more real weakness in his offensive game. Defense isn’t elite, but has definitely improved.

    2. Russell Westbrook – Relentless, agressive, explosive, erratic The most athletically explosive player in the NBA today, Westbrook really has a case for being the best PG today. He just becomes too out of control far too often for my (and a lot of others’) liking. Some people take his seemingly ‘me first’ attitude against him due to Durant’s presence, but sometimes I wonder if the two of them are actually in the same level already and if Durant could also be faulted for ignoring Wesbrook at times (tho Russ has the disadvantage of being the PG, thus the biased notions)

    3. John Wall – Ok so this is a bit bold on my part. He is my favorite player in the league (along with Kobe) so this might be biased. I was so tempted to put him at number 2 HAHA. Having watched so many Wiz games this season, it is just amazing to see how Wall affects the entire game. He doesn’t even need to fill the boxscore to do so (though he does that regularly). Again, his shooting and turnovers are holding him back, but the shooting is better than what people give him credit for, and the turnovers are severely outweighed by everything else he does. He was already a good defensive player before but he has also taken that to a whole new level this season. All of these, along with a slight drop in production and team role by Chris Paul made me put Wall at number 3.

    4. Chris Paul – Has shown ever so subtle signs of decline, but maybe it’s just due to Blake Griffin developing more. He may not be as dominant this season as compared to previous ones, but he is definitely still elite. If he were playing at this level 5-7 years ago, he would still probably be the best point guard in the league. One thing I wonder about Paul is how much his playstyle changes when he just wants to takeover games. And I have a feeling that will show in the playoffs or in spurts in the bigger games during the regular season, and people will reconsider if he still is the best PG today. The last of the ‘elite, clearly franchise guys PG’ tier.

    5. Kyle Lowry – Choosing between him and Lillard, and I gave Lowry the edge due to him being the clear-cut best player on his team, which is the best in the East right now. There’s just something that gets to people’s hearts about a player who stumbles arund the league, never being able to truly make his mark, then eventually finding a home that is willing to give him control. A slightly scoring-inclined all-around PG, he really is having the time of his life these past 2 seasons with the Raptors. Maybe outside of his rebounding for a PG, not much else about his game is truly elite, but if all of those traits are classified as ‘above-avreage to great,’ who would complain?

    6. Damian Lillard – Tremendous shooter both off the dribble and in catch-and-shoot situations. Definitely a proven clutch player this early in his career. He lacks a bit of ability when it comes to creating for others, but is passable on that regard. He knows when to allow the offense come to him or when to be aggressive. As of now, still a sub-par defender, although his steals are at a career-high. He seems to be more or less a polished player already, and so I’m not sure how much higher he can go this list. Maybe top 3 or 4 tops? (Meant more as a testament to how good the PGs are today rather than a knock on Lillard)

    7. Tony Parker – In terms of the raw numbers, he’s having a slightly down year, but his intangibles are ever-present, plus he remains to be one of the most efficient guards in the league today. For a career below-average 3-point shooter, his surprising rate from 3 this year is expected to go down. But with more than 1/4 of the season already over, it will likely stay high. Has been the best player on the Spurs for a few seasons now. Sometimes I wonder though, is Parker this good these past few years because of the Spurs’ system or are the Spurs so good because of Parker (note: they play differently now compared to when Duncan was super dominant). Hard to tell.

    8. Derrick Rose – It’s as simple as this: If you can’t be relied on to play regularly, or to even play at an elite level when you do play given how much leeway is given to you about resting to avoid injuries, you can’t be considered one of the best. I’d even argue that he hasn’t even been 1st or 2nd best player on his team so far this season (Butler and Gasol respectively). I am actually still reluctant to have him this high due to the aforementioned case, but he’s had a few really good games recently, and those have made me give him the benefit of the doubt. The last of the 2nd tier, though he should definitely be part of the 1st when healthy.

    9. Kyrie Irving – Best handles in the league right now, great shooter and finisher (under the rim). Why isn’t he higher on the list then? As a lot have mentioned, he doesn’t really make other players around him better, and (as of now) seems to be more style over substance when it comes to his play, and he also doesn’t play defense. His style of play has definitely garnered him a lot of fans and media attention, but doing all those without winning can only take you so far. Still very young, and has a lot of time to mature as a player. Has the benefit of playing along Lebron to help him figure things out. You could make a case for Kyrie being part of the 2nd tier (with the potential to eventually join the 1st), or maybe you can put him alone in the 3rd tier and move everyone else below into the 4th tier. But as of now, I’ll keep him at the top of the 3rd tier.

    10. Mike Conley – After careful deliberation, I have decided to choose Conley to finally be part of my top 10 PGs. Has always been under-appreciated and on the outside-looking-in  when it comes to the discussion of top PGs, but I guess his solid and consistent play along with his track record made me choose him over the guys I would list in my honorable mentioons (though they are all part of the 3rd tier as well). Good shooter, good distributor (not necessarily assists, but in terms of just getting the play rolling), good defender and has slowly turned into a solid leader. I understand why he has consistently been underrated by everyone because of how nothing really stands out about his play and how he never really made a huge ‘leap’ as a player but more of incremental steps, but I guess it is time to give credit where credit is due. Him being the PG of a consistent playoff team also gave him bonus points over the others.

    Honorable mentions (no particular order): Ty Lawson, Eric Bledsoe, Goran Dragic, Jeff Teague, Rajon Rondo. Wow the 3rd tier is really packed.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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  • #960159
    AvatarAvatar
    Tioseco
    Participant

    It seems that the general consensus of the top 5 PGs today has more or less formed already this season. I remember how over the last year or so how everyone’s rankings around here for the PGs was really a mess with just different permutations of the same 10-12 players. It seems like some guys this season really have separated themselves from the pack to form the truly ‘elite’ tier. Here’s my list:

    1. Steph Curry – The most entertaining player in the NBA right now, also the best shooter. With his much improved finishing this season, there really is no more real weakness in his offensive game. Defense isn’t elite, but has definitely improved.

    2. Russell Westbrook – Relentless, agressive, explosive, erratic The most athletically explosive player in the NBA today, Westbrook really has a case for being the best PG today. He just becomes too out of control far too often for my (and a lot of others’) liking. Some people take his seemingly ‘me first’ attitude against him due to Durant’s presence, but sometimes I wonder if the two of them are actually in the same level already and if Durant could also be faulted for ignoring Wesbrook at times (tho Russ has the disadvantage of being the PG, thus the biased notions)

    3. John Wall – Ok so this is a bit bold on my part. He is my favorite player in the league (along with Kobe) so this might be biased. I was so tempted to put him at number 2 HAHA. Having watched so many Wiz games this season, it is just amazing to see how Wall affects the entire game. He doesn’t even need to fill the boxscore to do so (though he does that regularly). Again, his shooting and turnovers are holding him back, but the shooting is better than what people give him credit for, and the turnovers are severely outweighed by everything else he does. He was already a good defensive player before but he has also taken that to a whole new level this season. All of these, along with a slight drop in production and team role by Chris Paul made me put Wall at number 3.

    4. Chris Paul – Has shown ever so subtle signs of decline, but maybe it’s just due to Blake Griffin developing more. He may not be as dominant this season as compared to previous ones, but he is definitely still elite. If he were playing at this level 5-7 years ago, he would still probably be the best point guard in the league. One thing I wonder about Paul is how much his playstyle changes when he just wants to takeover games. And I have a feeling that will show in the playoffs or in spurts in the bigger games during the regular season, and people will reconsider if he still is the best PG today. The last of the ‘elite, clearly franchise guys PG’ tier.

    5. Kyle Lowry – Choosing between him and Lillard, and I gave Lowry the edge due to him being the clear-cut best player on his team, which is the best in the East right now. There’s just something that gets to people’s hearts about a player who stumbles arund the league, never being able to truly make his mark, then eventually finding a home that is willing to give him control. A slightly scoring-inclined all-around PG, he really is having the time of his life these past 2 seasons with the Raptors. Maybe outside of his rebounding for a PG, not much else about his game is truly elite, but if all of those traits are classified as ‘above-avreage to great,’ who would complain?

    6. Damian Lillard – Tremendous shooter both off the dribble and in catch-and-shoot situations. Definitely a proven clutch player this early in his career. He lacks a bit of ability when it comes to creating for others, but is passable on that regard. He knows when to allow the offense come to him or when to be aggressive. As of now, still a sub-par defender, although his steals are at a career-high. He seems to be more or less a polished player already, and so I’m not sure how much higher he can go this list. Maybe top 3 or 4 tops? (Meant more as a testament to how good the PGs are today rather than a knock on Lillard)

    7. Tony Parker – In terms of the raw numbers, he’s having a slightly down year, but his intangibles are ever-present, plus he remains to be one of the most efficient guards in the league today. For a career below-average 3-point shooter, his surprising rate from 3 this year is expected to go down. But with more than 1/4 of the season already over, it will likely stay high. Has been the best player on the Spurs for a few seasons now. Sometimes I wonder though, is Parker this good these past few years because of the Spurs’ system or are the Spurs so good because of Parker (note: they play differently now compared to when Duncan was super dominant). Hard to tell.

    8. Derrick Rose – It’s as simple as this: If you can’t be relied on to play regularly, or to even play at an elite level when you do play given how much leeway is given to you about resting to avoid injuries, you can’t be considered one of the best. I’d even argue that he hasn’t even been 1st or 2nd best player on his team so far this season (Butler and Gasol respectively). I am actually still reluctant to have him this high due to the aforementioned case, but he’s had a few really good games recently, and those have made me give him the benefit of the doubt. The last of the 2nd tier, though he should definitely be part of the 1st when healthy.

    9. Kyrie Irving – Best handles in the league right now, great shooter and finisher (under the rim). Why isn’t he higher on the list then? As a lot have mentioned, he doesn’t really make other players around him better, and (as of now) seems to be more style over substance when it comes to his play, and he also doesn’t play defense. His style of play has definitely garnered him a lot of fans and media attention, but doing all those without winning can only take you so far. Still very young, and has a lot of time to mature as a player. Has the benefit of playing along Lebron to help him figure things out. You could make a case for Kyrie being part of the 2nd tier (with the potential to eventually join the 1st), or maybe you can put him alone in the 3rd tier and move everyone else below into the 4th tier. But as of now, I’ll keep him at the top of the 3rd tier.

    10. Mike Conley – After careful deliberation, I have decided to choose Conley to finally be part of my top 10 PGs. Has always been under-appreciated and on the outside-looking-in  when it comes to the discussion of top PGs, but I guess his solid and consistent play along with his track record made me choose him over the guys I would list in my honorable mentioons (though they are all part of the 3rd tier as well). Good shooter, good distributor (not necessarily assists, but in terms of just getting the play rolling), good defender and has slowly turned into a solid leader. I understand why he has consistently been underrated by everyone because of how nothing really stands out about his play and how he never really made a huge ‘leap’ as a player but more of incremental steps, but I guess it is time to give credit where credit is due. Him being the PG of a consistent playoff team also gave him bonus points over the others.

    Honorable mentions (no particular order): Ty Lawson, Eric Bledsoe, Goran Dragic, Jeff Teague, Rajon Rondo. Wow the 3rd tier is really packed.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    • #960326
      AvatarAvatar
      Sewok15
      Participant

      Great list I would say that is pretty much the exact same as mine except I would move Irving to 10 and Conley up a spot to 9. From a pure talent level Kyrie is already top 5 but he needs to make a playoff run before I move him over Conley who has been so consistent on winning teams for years now.

      That John Wall spinning layup today made me want to move him up as well but he is pretty much solidified at #3 right now with the discussion for the best being between the effecient offensive game of Curry and the electric all around game of Westbrook. Curry just gets the edge for me because of how well their whole team is playing this season.

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    • #960189
      AvatarAvatar
      Sewok15
      Participant

      Great list I would say that is pretty much the exact same as mine except I would move Irving to 10 and Conley up a spot to 9. From a pure talent level Kyrie is already top 5 but he needs to make a playoff run before I move him over Conley who has been so consistent on winning teams for years now.

      That John Wall spinning layup today made me want to move him up as well but he is pretty much solidified at #3 right now with the discussion for the best being between the effecient offensive game of Curry and the electric all around game of Westbrook. Curry just gets the edge for me because of how well their whole team is playing this season.

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  • #960285
    AvatarAvatar
    tuck243
    Participant

    If we’re going TRUE PG then John Wall is the clear cut favorite IMO.  The best players at the position? It’s tricky because this is the only position you can split up into 2 categories…  So for best player at PG……………….

    1. Russell Westbrook – I don’t think it’s a better player attacking right now.  Seeing how TERRIBLE the Thunder was without KD and Westbrook to a great record with one or both…. It’s hard for me (or anyone else) to say he isn’t having an MVP year.  I’m starting to understand him more and more when KD is out with injuries.   This is a guy that DESTROYED Chris Paul last year in the playoffs.  Still gambles too much on defense and sometimes can miss WIDE OPEN teammates due to carrying the load. But the best IMO.

    2. Stephen Curry – It’s hard to go against the best player on the leading team in the NBA.  Some of the success can be attributed to him, but most is the development of Klay, Green, and Barnes.  With that said, Steph has improved on what was already a deadly step back shot and his defense is better.  One thing that’s concerns me is his turnovers sometimes and how he goes missing.  Ala the Clippers game.

    3. Derrick Rose – Now before you guys go crazy on me for this pick, let me explain.  Derrick hasn’t missed that many games lately and when he plays he’s clearly the best PG on the floor.  He just played Toronto and killed the aggressive guard that is Kyle Lowery.  Then he played the Wizards, locked up John Wall and dropped 20 on 50% shooting… Speaking of which…

    4. John Wall – He’s by far the best True PG in the league.  He get’s everyone into position and we watched him DESTROY Jose on Christmas without pick set for him.   He was killing so bad that Jose was looking at teammates like they did something wrong.  I don’t care how fast a guy is, it’s no way he should get 3-4 steps on you without a screen set for him… But that’s another story…  Anyway… Wall is a nightmare to handle offensively and will work his a$$ off defensively too…  He’s stopped gambling too much which is the best part of his game to me.  Shooting 60% in the paint last year was up there with LeBron.  He’s continuing that trend this year.  Only issue is he’s still not efficient in the half court and his FG% has taken a hit because of that…  More work to be done for this guy with that jumper…  

    5. Chris Paul – I don’t think he’s slowing down, I just think he’s too soft at times.  Instead of being a threat he tends to allow teammates to score.  That’s what a PG suppose to do, but you have to question at what cost to the team it is.  He’s obviously the best offensive threat on the team (yes even with Blake improving and that MONSTER off the bench in J. Crawford).  He seems to go missing a lot and I’m not sure Blake & Co. is there ‘yet’ for him to do that.

    6. Kyle Lowery – I would’ve had TP here, but Kyle is a better all-around PG and really showing the world why should’ve received more money in the off-season.  Not really a fast, but he can hit timely shots and if you’re not elite speed PG’s ala Rose, Wall, or Westbrook you ain’t doing Sh!t on Mike Lowery… I mean Kyle….  

    7. Tony Parker – I actually put him here because you guys always sleep on him every season and when the playoffs come you guys go "Tony Parker is the best PG in the league" or some other jive sh!t like that.  I like TP and think he’s a top 10 PG in the league still.  He forces you to put him in the Top 5 conversation, but his team is simply well put together to actually be there. Plus he really isn’t depended on during the regular season, but he’s still Top 10 until he shows us otherwise when it counts.

    8. Mario Chalmers – Sike just kidding 

    8. Damien Lillard – This guy is top 3 offensive threat in the entire league.  Forget position…  Can hit it from anywhere on the court and during the most critical situations as well…  Or like my man Fabolous says "Lituation"…  Gawd damn this guy is good offensively…  And then it’s night time when talking about his offense.  Remember early how I said Jose Calderon was getting killed by John Wall?  Enter Lillard defensively…  Well it’s not that bad, but yall get the point.   It’s terrible *Barkley’s voice*.  Some have to wonder if he played remotely as good on the defensive end would he NEED to be as good offensively?  Let that sit on your minds…..

    9. Kyrie Irving – Now I was high on Kyrie beginning of this season and thought all the hate was unwarranted, BUT I’m starting to see the light (I’m also starting to see that Blatt isn’t who we think he is too).  Kyrie goes one on one all the time when he has the ball.  Might be the play calling or might be him, regardless he doesn’t look to be the PG that I so wish he was…  This maybe playing with LeBron and the system, but one has to wonder why was he taking the most shots out of everyone the beginning of the season?  22 shots per game and they were losing.  He still takes bad shots which is non-sense with the players that’s around him.  Until he gets "IT" he’s shouldn’t move from the lower half of folks’ lists.

    10. Mike Conley – I think him and Kyrie are interchangeable for me right now.  Not saying Conley plays anything like Kyrie, just he’s that good at times.   Keyword "TIMES"…  He’s not aggressive enough to me, but when he decides to semi take over MAN…  He’s more of a true PG though and has 2 great post players.  With a great defense so I can see why it’s not really needed.  

     

    Honorable Mention: Bledsoe, Rondo, and Teague…   

     

     

     

     

     

      

      

     

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  • #960421
    AvatarAvatar
    tuck243
    Participant

    If we’re going TRUE PG then John Wall is the clear cut favorite IMO.  The best players at the position? It’s tricky because this is the only position you can split up into 2 categories…  So for best player at PG……………….

    1. Russell Westbrook – I don’t think it’s a better player attacking right now.  Seeing how TERRIBLE the Thunder was without KD and Westbrook to a great record with one or both…. It’s hard for me (or anyone else) to say he isn’t having an MVP year.  I’m starting to understand him more and more when KD is out with injuries.   This is a guy that DESTROYED Chris Paul last year in the playoffs.  Still gambles too much on defense and sometimes can miss WIDE OPEN teammates due to carrying the load. But the best IMO.

    2. Stephen Curry – It’s hard to go against the best player on the leading team in the NBA.  Some of the success can be attributed to him, but most is the development of Klay, Green, and Barnes.  With that said, Steph has improved on what was already a deadly step back shot and his defense is better.  One thing that’s concerns me is his turnovers sometimes and how he goes missing.  Ala the Clippers game.

    3. Derrick Rose – Now before you guys go crazy on me for this pick, let me explain.  Derrick hasn’t missed that many games lately and when he plays he’s clearly the best PG on the floor.  He just played Toronto and killed the aggressive guard that is Kyle Lowery.  Then he played the Wizards, locked up John Wall and dropped 20 on 50% shooting… Speaking of which…

    4. John Wall – He’s by far the best True PG in the league.  He get’s everyone into position and we watched him DESTROY Jose on Christmas without pick set for him.   He was killing so bad that Jose was looking at teammates like they did something wrong.  I don’t care how fast a guy is, it’s no way he should get 3-4 steps on you without a screen set for him… But that’s another story…  Anyway… Wall is a nightmare to handle offensively and will work his a$$ off defensively too…  He’s stopped gambling too much which is the best part of his game to me.  Shooting 60% in the paint last year was up there with LeBron.  He’s continuing that trend this year.  Only issue is he’s still not efficient in the half court and his FG% has taken a hit because of that…  More work to be done for this guy with that jumper…  

    5. Chris Paul – I don’t think he’s slowing down, I just think he’s too soft at times.  Instead of being a threat he tends to allow teammates to score.  That’s what a PG suppose to do, but you have to question at what cost to the team it is.  He’s obviously the best offensive threat on the team (yes even with Blake improving and that MONSTER off the bench in J. Crawford).  He seems to go missing a lot and I’m not sure Blake & Co. is there ‘yet’ for him to do that.

    6. Kyle Lowery – I would’ve had TP here, but Kyle is a better all-around PG and really showing the world why should’ve received more money in the off-season.  Not really a fast, but he can hit timely shots and if you’re not elite speed PG’s ala Rose, Wall, or Westbrook you ain’t doing Sh!t on Mike Lowery… I mean Kyle….  

    7. Tony Parker – I actually put him here because you guys always sleep on him every season and when the playoffs come you guys go "Tony Parker is the best PG in the league" or some other jive sh!t like that.  I like TP and think he’s a top 10 PG in the league still.  He forces you to put him in the Top 5 conversation, but his team is simply well put together to actually be there. Plus he really isn’t depended on during the regular season, but he’s still Top 10 until he shows us otherwise when it counts.

    8. Mario Chalmers – Sike just kidding 

    8. Damien Lillard – This guy is top 3 offensive threat in the entire league.  Forget position…  Can hit it from anywhere on the court and during the most critical situations as well…  Or like my man Fabolous says "Lituation"…  Gawd damn this guy is good offensively…  And then it’s night time when talking about his offense.  Remember early how I said Jose Calderon was getting killed by John Wall?  Enter Lillard defensively…  Well it’s not that bad, but yall get the point.   It’s terrible *Barkley’s voice*.  Some have to wonder if he played remotely as good on the defensive end would he NEED to be as good offensively?  Let that sit on your minds…..

    9. Kyrie Irving – Now I was high on Kyrie beginning of this season and thought all the hate was unwarranted, BUT I’m starting to see the light (I’m also starting to see that Blatt isn’t who we think he is too).  Kyrie goes one on one all the time when he has the ball.  Might be the play calling or might be him, regardless he doesn’t look to be the PG that I so wish he was…  This maybe playing with LeBron and the system, but one has to wonder why was he taking the most shots out of everyone the beginning of the season?  22 shots per game and they were losing.  He still takes bad shots which is non-sense with the players that’s around him.  Until he gets "IT" he’s shouldn’t move from the lower half of folks’ lists.

    10. Mike Conley – I think him and Kyrie are interchangeable for me right now.  Not saying Conley plays anything like Kyrie, just he’s that good at times.   Keyword "TIMES"…  He’s not aggressive enough to me, but when he decides to semi take over MAN…  He’s more of a true PG though and has 2 great post players.  With a great defense so I can see why it’s not really needed.  

     

    Honorable Mention: Bledsoe, Rondo, and Teague…   

     

     

     

     

     

      

      

     

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