Where does Vince Carter rank all-time?

This topic contains 32 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by terrancebower 11 years, 8 months ago.

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Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 7:24am #58246

Aderito
Participant
Ah, Vince Carter. My 2nd favorite player (My favorite player is Dirk Nowitzki) as a kid, and its a toss up if he’s still 2nd my favorite player now. I had NBA Live 2004 for PS2, when he was the cover athlete. I would go into the player rosters and edit Vinsanity stats all the way up to 99.
At a point in time, he was in the conversation with the likes of Kobe, AI, T-Mac, etc.
VC at his prime was a consistent top 3 SG. He was Rookie of the Year, and was top 10 in scoring during his prime, with around a 24/5/5 average then (his prime). In my opinion, his best season was 2000-2001 with the Raptors when he averaged 27.6pts, 1.1blks, 1.5stls, 3.9ast, 5.5rbs, 40.8 percent from three and 46.0 percent from the field. Not many players can boast those kind of averages. However, his legacy (and career) will forever be tarnished by his injuries and his time in Toronto. Also, he’s never averaged less than 10pts for a season in his career. His career average for points hovers over 20pts. Great player…
In the NBA when you think about dunkers, three players come to mind: Dominique Wilkins, Michael Jordan, and Vince Carter. His athleticism, vertical, and dunking ability was unmatched. Pure joy to watch play. His play in the clutch is also underrated.
Many doesn’t know but he in the 7th place in terms of NBA all time career leaders in 3-Pt Field Goals made with 1809 3pts made over his career. He only have Ray Allen (2973), Reggie Miller (2560), Jason Kidd (1988), Jason Terry (1950), Paul Pierce (1935), Chauncey Billups (1830) in front of him…
After his stint with the Nets, he went to the Magic,Suns, Mavericks and now he is in the Grizzlies. At this phase, it was firmly established Vince’s career was on the wind-down. A typical player that’s role is to shoot 3s and even with that Vince Carter is such a good player, even at his older age. He can still take over games sometimes..
So, where does VC rank as an all-time SG? For me, he has to at least be in the top 10. His work ethic was the downfall of his stardom… would he be an all-time great if he had the work ethic of Kobe? Who knows.
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Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 8:47am #953225

juves4783
Participant
no doubt top 15. i think you could argue top 10 but i could see mj, kobe, wade, drexler, reggie millter, ray allen, earl monroe, pistol pete, allen iverson, havlicek, george gervin, jerry west and maybe joe dumars all being ahead of him.
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Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 8:47am #953087

juves4783
Participant
no doubt top 15. i think you could argue top 10 but i could see mj, kobe, wade, drexler, reggie millter, ray allen, earl monroe, pistol pete, allen iverson, havlicek, george gervin, jerry west and maybe joe dumars all being ahead of him.
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- Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 9:21am #953091
  
  tuck243
  Participant
  I thought he was a PG?
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- Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 9:21am #953229
  
  tuck243
  Participant
  I thought he was a PG?
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- Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 10:20am #953101
  
  terrancebower
  Participant
  Havlicek was a SF
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  - Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 10:24am #953103
    
    juves4783
    Participant
    well, then sam jones would replace him on the list.
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    - Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 10:30am #953105
      
      terrancebower
      Participant
      Fair enough. Maybe throw in Hal Greer too if we’re talking about old timers?
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    - Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 10:30am #953243
      
      terrancebower
      Participant
      Fair enough. Maybe throw in Hal Greer too if we’re talking about old timers?
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  - Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 10:24am #953241
    
    juves4783
    Participant
    well, then sam jones would replace him on the list.
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- Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 10:20am #953239
  
  terrancebower
  Participant
  Havlicek was a SF
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Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 11:11am #953114

BogDon_Krypt
Participant
When it’s all said and done, I think its safe to say VC is the great shooting guard ever on NBA 2k. Even today on NBA 2K15, he can take over exhibition games. In fact, last night he scored 38 points on 12/19 shooting. Although his assist level low at 2, his +- for the game was 8.
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Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 11:11am #953253

BogDon_Krypt
Participant
When it’s all said and done, I think its safe to say VC is the great shooting guard ever on NBA 2k. Even today on NBA 2K15, he can take over exhibition games. In fact, last night he scored 38 points on 12/19 shooting. Although his assist level low at 2, his +- for the game was 8.
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Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 11:17am #953116

OhCanada-
Participant
I will always remember him as the most exciting player to ever play an NBA basketball game. Now to an NBA athlete of his level that may not be saying much. These guys love competing and Im sure that he wouldve loved being ranked up there with Kobe and Jordan on the Alltime greatest list. Yet in my humble opinion being the most exciting player to play the sport holds its own greatness in itself because at the end we watch the game to be enticed and excited while watching the best competitively go at it. VC made it look so easy as well.
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Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 11:17am #953256

OhCanada-
Participant
I will always remember him as the most exciting player to ever play an NBA basketball game. Now to an NBA athlete of his level that may not be saying much. These guys love competing and Im sure that he wouldve loved being ranked up there with Kobe and Jordan on the Alltime greatest list. Yet in my humble opinion being the most exciting player to play the sport holds its own greatness in itself because at the end we watch the game to be enticed and excited while watching the best competitively go at it. VC made it look so easy as well.
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Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 1:42pm #953127

Grandmama
Participant
Probably in the 15-20 range of best SG’s ever. Definitely not a top 10 SG.
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- Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 2:25pm #953134
  
  capecodder
  Participant
  Too much of ratings are based on dunking and Sports Center highlights….if you discount the highlight reels, he may be top 25…..if you base it on talent and spectacular showtime assets…..top 10
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- Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 2:25pm #953274
  
  capecodder
  Participant
  Too much of ratings are based on dunking and Sports Center highlights….if you discount the highlight reels, he may be top 25…..if you base it on talent and spectacular showtime assets…..top 10
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Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 1:42pm #953266

Grandmama
Participant
Probably in the 15-20 range of best SG’s ever. Definitely not a top 10 SG.
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Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 2:50pm #953140

rope
Participant
Where does he rank all time? HOF in the first few ballots. He is an all timer. Trying to rank them 1 thru 5 (or 15 or whatever) is too tough. There are so many great players in the history of the game and very few people have seen most of them. As far as Maravich, he was a guard, just like the Frazier / Monroe backcourt were just guards. You had to have a variety of skills and complement each other to form a good backcourt. I know Cousy is credited for inventing the position, but the strict designations didn’t show up until way later. PS – I am a huge Pistons fan and loved the Bad Boys, but Joe Dumars was a good player who really doesn’t belong in this discussion. I really don’t think he was even in the next tier down.
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- Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 2:54pm #953142
  
  rope
  Participant
  This is a really great article on Maravich from the SI archives.
  http://www.si.com/nba/2014/10/23/si-60-curry-kirkpatrick-pete-maravich-no-one-can-cap-pistol
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- Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 2:54pm #953282
  
  rope
  Participant
  This is a really great article on Maravich from the SI archives.
  http://www.si.com/nba/2014/10/23/si-60-curry-kirkpatrick-pete-maravich-no-one-can-cap-pistol
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Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 2:50pm #953280

rope
Participant
Where does he rank all time? HOF in the first few ballots. He is an all timer. Trying to rank them 1 thru 5 (or 15 or whatever) is too tough. There are so many great players in the history of the game and very few people have seen most of them. As far as Maravich, he was a guard, just like the Frazier / Monroe backcourt were just guards. You had to have a variety of skills and complement each other to form a good backcourt. I know Cousy is credited for inventing the position, but the strict designations didn’t show up until way later. PS – I am a huge Pistons fan and loved the Bad Boys, but Joe Dumars was a good player who really doesn’t belong in this discussion. I really don’t think he was even in the next tier down.
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Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 11:47pm #953182

thparadox
Participant
Not top 10. Probably around 15th.
Jordan
Jerry West
Kobe
Reggie Miller
Ray Allen
Manu Ginobili
Wade
Clyde Drexler
Tracy McGrady (better peak years. stopped by injuries)
That’s already 9.
Guys on a similar level / Shortened careers:
Eddie Jones
Sidney Moncrief
George Gervin
Sam Jones (could be in the higher group, but hard to adjust for era)
James Harden’s first 5 years are better than VC’s first 5.
That adds to 14.
Vince was also not a pure SG. He played a lot of SF. Paul Pierce was his direct competition, and had a much better career than him.

If we want to add intangibles into the mix…. Vince was an incredible player early in his career, performing at a superstar level in his third year at the age of 24. He lead the Raptors to the Eastern Conference Finals where they lost to the 76ers in 7 games. On his way to being a strong MVP candidate.
The following season, he was riddled with what was called "jumpers knee".
Then, for some reason, VC spent the next 2.5 years of his prime in Toronto jogging up the court and settling for "fall away" jumpers.
At first it was probably just discomfort coming back from injury…
But when he was dropped from the team in 2004-2005 after 20 games of just jacking fallaway jumpers, racking up a .068 WS/48, he immediately hit his 3rd year level again on the Nets, putting up a .184 WS/48 over the remainder of the year.
So he spent somewhere between 0.5 and 2.5 seasons playing far below his abilities, in an attempt to get traded.
I don’t know about you, but for me he gets knocked down a few pegs for that.

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- Posted on: Tue, 10/28/2014 - 6:00am #953359
  
  Aderito
  Participant
  Vince Carter: Per Game (1998-99 to 2002-03)
  24.1 PTS, 45.4 FG%, 38.7 3P%, 78.2 FT%, 3.7 AST, 5.4 TRB, 1.4 STL, 1.1 BLK, 2.2 TOV
  James Harden: Per Game (2009-10 to 2013-14)
  18.0 PTS, 44.5 FG%, 36.9 3P%, 84.9 FT%, 3.9 AST, 4.0 TRB, 1.3 STL, 0.3 BLK, 2.2 TOV
  Vince Carter was way better than James Harden in the 1st years in the league
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- Posted on: Tue, 10/28/2014 - 6:00am #953220
  
  Aderito
  Participant
  Vince Carter: Per Game (1998-99 to 2002-03)
  24.1 PTS, 45.4 FG%, 38.7 3P%, 78.2 FT%, 3.7 AST, 5.4 TRB, 1.4 STL, 1.1 BLK, 2.2 TOV
  James Harden: Per Game (2009-10 to 2013-14)
  18.0 PTS, 44.5 FG%, 36.9 3P%, 84.9 FT%, 3.9 AST, 4.0 TRB, 1.3 STL, 0.3 BLK, 2.2 TOV
  Vince Carter was way better than James Harden in the 1st years in the league
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  - Posted on: Tue, 10/28/2014 - 7:30am #953369
    
    thparadox
    Participant
    Vince carter was way better because he averaged 6 more PPG??
    Harden was 6th man on a stacked OKC team. He got his points with far fewer FGA than Vince did.
    If you compare the advanced stats you’ll see what I’m talking about.
    Harden’s last 2 years were better than Vince’s peak.
    
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  - Posted on: Tue, 10/28/2014 - 7:30am #953230
    
    thparadox
    Participant
    Vince carter was way better because he averaged 6 more PPG??
    Harden was 6th man on a stacked OKC team. He got his points with far fewer FGA than Vince did.
    If you compare the advanced stats you’ll see what I’m talking about.
    Harden’s last 2 years were better than Vince’s peak.
    
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    - Posted on: Tue, 10/28/2014 - 8:18am #953379
      
      tuck243
      Participant
      You said James Harden first few years were better than VC… Which isn’t true… Also, Vince had a bigger impact on the game and literally put a$$es in those seats in Toronto…
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    - Posted on: Tue, 10/28/2014 - 8:18am #953240
      
      tuck243
      Participant
      You said James Harden first few years were better than VC… Which isn’t true… Also, Vince had a bigger impact on the game and literally put a$$es in those seats in Toronto…
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    - Posted on: Tue, 10/28/2014 - 10:52am #953417
      
      terrancebower
      Participant
      Defense, in case anyone had forgotten, is 50% of the game (to put simply, just as important as scoring). Vince was a way better defender than James Harden. Not that he was a crazy ballhawk or anything, but solid for sure. Not only is James Harden less than solid on that end, he is downright awful (purely an effort issue, has potential to be atleast average, but terrible effort on that end).
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    - Posted on: Tue, 10/28/2014 - 10:52am #953277
      
      terrancebower
      Participant
      Defense, in case anyone had forgotten, is 50% of the game (to put simply, just as important as scoring). Vince was a way better defender than James Harden. Not that he was a crazy ballhawk or anything, but solid for sure. Not only is James Harden less than solid on that end, he is downright awful (purely an effort issue, has potential to be atleast average, but terrible effort on that end).
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Posted on: Mon, 10/27/2014 - 11:47pm #953321

thparadox
Participant
Not top 10. Probably around 15th.
Jordan
Jerry West
Kobe
Reggie Miller
Ray Allen
Manu Ginobili
Wade
Clyde Drexler
Tracy McGrady (better peak years. stopped by injuries)
That’s already 9.
Guys on a similar level / Shortened careers:
Eddie Jones
Sidney Moncrief
George Gervin
Sam Jones (could be in the higher group, but hard to adjust for era)
James Harden’s first 5 years are better than VC’s first 5.
That adds to 14.
Vince was also not a pure SG. He played a lot of SF. Paul Pierce was his direct competition, and had a much better career than him.

If we want to add intangibles into the mix…. Vince was an incredible player early in his career, performing at a superstar level in his third year at the age of 24. He lead the Raptors to the Eastern Conference Finals where they lost to the 76ers in 7 games. On his way to being a strong MVP candidate.
The following season, he was riddled with what was called "jumpers knee".
Then, for some reason, VC spent the next 2.5 years of his prime in Toronto jogging up the court and settling for "fall away" jumpers.
At first it was probably just discomfort coming back from injury…
But when he was dropped from the team in 2004-2005 after 20 games of just jacking fallaway jumpers, racking up a .068 WS/48, he immediately hit his 3rd year level again on the Nets, putting up a .184 WS/48 over the remainder of the year.
So he spent somewhere between 0.5 and 2.5 seasons playing far below his abilities, in an attempt to get traded.
I don’t know about you, but for me he gets knocked down a few pegs for that.

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