Misconception that Athleticism = Defensive Ability

 I see what you’re saying, but most scouting reports for long athletic players usually say "Potential to be a lockdown defender". Which is true because any long and athletic player can become a good defensive player when they have the right mindset. In my eyes a lot of it is toughness, mentally and physically. For example, coming into the league, Nick Young was scouted to have the potential to develop into a lockdown defender with his 6’7 size and 7’0 wingspan but we all know his reputation on that end of the floor.

 I see what you’re saying, but most scouting reports for long athletic players usually say "Potential to be a lockdown defender". Which is true because any long and athletic player can become a good defensive player when they have the right mindset. In my eyes a lot of it is toughness, mentally and physically. For example, coming into the league, Nick Young was scouted to have the potential to develop into a lockdown defender with his 6’7 size and 7’0 wingspan but we all know his reputation on that end of the floor.

I agree, athleticism doesn’t mean defense. Prime example is JR Smith, who I always speak about because he COULD BE THE BEST SG IN THE LEAGUE DAMNIT.

Boozer plays alongside Noah most of the time, so he’s always going to have better numbers than he warrants. The GSW’s defense covers up for Curry’s shortcomings, but he isn’t such a bleeding liability to begin with. Gortat became more of a defensive anchor knowing that he won’t have to score 15+ points to lead his team to a win alongside Wall, Beal, and Nene.

Fun little fact, Blake Griffin has dinosaur arms. His defense will never be great, or even good, just “meh” or “damn”.

I agree, athleticism doesn’t mean defense. Prime example is JR Smith, who I always speak about because he COULD BE THE BEST SG IN THE LEAGUE DAMNIT.

Boozer plays alongside Noah most of the time, so he’s always going to have better numbers than he warrants. The GSW’s defense covers up for Curry’s shortcomings, but he isn’t such a bleeding liability to begin with. Gortat became more of a defensive anchor knowing that he won’t have to score 15+ points to lead his team to a win alongside Wall, Beal, and Nene.

Fun little fact, Blake Griffin has dinosaur arms. His defense will never be great, or even good, just “meh” or “damn”.

I believe effort is what makes great defenders. Being a good athlete helps but look at Paul George and Rudy Gay, just about the same athletically but one guy is a top 5 defender in the league.
Side Note: why does this site compare all 6’7-6’9 athletic wing players to Scottie Pippen? Examples include George, Gay and recently Wiggins

I believe effort is what makes great defenders. Being a good athlete helps but look at Paul George and Rudy Gay, just about the same athletically but one guy is a top 5 defender in the league.
Side Note: why does this site compare all 6’7-6’9 athletic wing players to Scottie Pippen? Examples include George, Gay and recently Wiggins

 "Teams found it harder to score with Booze on the floor than Griffin" is really an incomplete statement. it wouls probably be more accurate to say teams found it harder to score against the Bulls than the Clippers. You just cant measure individual defense that way. Its extremely difficult to quantifiably measure individual defense at all. Defense is a 5-man effort. Its nice to be able to stay in front of a guy when youre on an island, but as soon as a screen comes (which is every few seconds in today’s NBA), it becomes a team effort of rotations and the aforementioned defender’s on-ball defensive abilitiy becomes a moot point. 

 "Teams found it harder to score with Booze on the floor than Griffin" is really an incomplete statement. it wouls probably be more accurate to say teams found it harder to score against the Bulls than the Clippers. You just cant measure individual defense that way. Its extremely difficult to quantifiably measure individual defense at all. Defense is a 5-man effort. Its nice to be able to stay in front of a guy when youre on an island, but as soon as a screen comes (which is every few seconds in today’s NBA), it becomes a team effort of rotations and the aforementioned defender’s on-ball defensive abilitiy becomes a moot point. 

"David West, Roy Hibbert, Al Jefferson, Tim Duncan, Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy, Stephen Curry, Andrew Bogut, George Hill, Marcin Gortat"

Quite a few of those guys you listed are actually pretty solid athletes or were back in their physical primes.

"David West, Roy Hibbert, Al Jefferson, Tim Duncan, Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy, Stephen Curry, Andrew Bogut, George Hill, Marcin Gortat"

Quite a few of those guys you listed are actually pretty solid athletes or were back in their physical primes.

Give me size, length, and agility to go along with "athleticism" and I will take that over a team with short, stubby, slow guys who can’t jump.

By "effort" that helps, but mainly you want guys who force players into bad shots, deny guys the dang ball in the first place, help out on D, and don’t commit a bunch of bad fouls.  On top of that, yeah, give me a taller, longer, agile, explosive athlete with a great motor and a high basketball IQ.

Some of the best athletes in league history have also been some of the best defenders: Jordan, Pippen, LeBron, and Olajuwon.

Bill Russell was one of THE top athletes (ONLY athlete?) when he entered the league.  Defensive GENIUS.

And, I would guess that Wilt blocked a lot of shots in his day and he probably even got a few steals too.

Michael Cooper was a defensive SPECIALIST back in the 80’s but he was really long with wiry strength and could DUNK.

Being athletic helps.

Give me size, length, and agility to go along with "athleticism" and I will take that over a team with short, stubby, slow guys who can’t jump.

By "effort" that helps, but mainly you want guys who force players into bad shots, deny guys the dang ball in the first place, help out on D, and don’t commit a bunch of bad fouls.  On top of that, yeah, give me a taller, longer, agile, explosive athlete with a great motor and a high basketball IQ.

Some of the best athletes in league history have also been some of the best defenders: Jordan, Pippen, LeBron, and Olajuwon.

Bill Russell was one of THE top athletes (ONLY athlete?) when he entered the league.  Defensive GENIUS.

And, I would guess that Wilt blocked a lot of shots in his day and he probably even got a few steals too.

Michael Cooper was a defensive SPECIALIST back in the 80’s but he was really long with wiry strength and could DUNK.

Being athletic helps.

Dur being athletic helps…the dude is saying people assume being athletic is the rule in determining if a guy can be a good defender. Which it isn’t. Mike Beasley is a great example. All the athletic tools you want. Size, strength, length, speed. He’s an idiot though and doesn’t know what the hell he’s doing on that end of the floor.

Guys can be athletic as all hell but if they don’t know where to be on defense, they aren’t going to be good. If somebody doesn’t understand how to rotate, or how to communicate on defense, they aren’t going to be good. If guys don’t understand what other teams are doing or trying to do, and don’t adapt to how refs are calling games, they aren’t going to be good. None of these traits have anything to do with being athletic.

There is no reason JJ Redick should be a better defender than Mike Beasley if you look at them. But Redick gets that stuff, Beasley doesn’t. There are plenty of examples of this around the league.

Dur being athletic helps…the dude is saying people assume being athletic is the rule in determining if a guy can be a good defender. Which it isn’t. Mike Beasley is a great example. All the athletic tools you want. Size, strength, length, speed. He’s an idiot though and doesn’t know what the hell he’s doing on that end of the floor.

Guys can be athletic as all hell but if they don’t know where to be on defense, they aren’t going to be good. If somebody doesn’t understand how to rotate, or how to communicate on defense, they aren’t going to be good. If guys don’t understand what other teams are doing or trying to do, and don’t adapt to how refs are calling games, they aren’t going to be good. None of these traits have anything to do with being athletic.

There is no reason JJ Redick should be a better defender than Mike Beasley if you look at them. But Redick gets that stuff, Beasley doesn’t. There are plenty of examples of this around the league.

Klay thompson usually defends the opposing teams best guards. That helps Curry’s ranking, due to him being hid on a player with a limited offensive arsenal.

Overall, good post. Hell, Marc Gasol won DPOY over Lebron a few years ago, due to his IQ and toughness on that end.

Klay thompson usually defends the opposing teams best guards. That helps Curry’s ranking, due to him being hid on a player with a limited offensive arsenal.

Overall, good post. Hell, Marc Gasol won DPOY over Lebron a few years ago, due to his IQ and toughness on that end.

Athleticism is a small part of evaluating potential and of course, it is not everything.

A player who is fast, tall, long, etc… could be more efficient. There are other things that should be considered, as not everything can be learned and almost nobody can make great leaps skill-wise, which is why the actual skill level should also be taken into account. Basketball is a team game, so IQ is very important as well.

Athleticism is a small part of evaluating potential and of course, it is not everything.

A player who is fast, tall, long, etc… could be more efficient. There are other things that should be considered, as not everything can be learned and almost nobody can make great leaps skill-wise, which is why the actual skill level should also be taken into account. Basketball is a team game, so IQ is very important as well.

Defensive Win Shares is simply an allocation of Team defensive win shares. That’s why Boozer would show up on the list. It’s because defensive win shares is somewhat flawed. (Don’t get me wrong, I support the use of stats, and I like Win Shares in general)

I think Defensive IQ has to be at the top of the list. All of the players mentioned, aside from DeAndre Jordan, are very high on defensive IQ. (and DeAndre is not a great defender, he’s a good rim protector, but not great overall)

You need a minimum level of athleticism though. Some players don’t have a chance because they lack the lateral quickness to stay with their man. It’s also close to impossible to be a rim protector without good elevation. e.g. Zach Randolph. Whereas Blake Griffin has the athleticism to block shots, but doesn’t seem to understand the anticipation.

Defensive Win Shares is simply an allocation of Team defensive win shares. That’s why Boozer would show up on the list. It’s because defensive win shares is somewhat flawed. (Don’t get me wrong, I support the use of stats, and I like Win Shares in general)

I think Defensive IQ has to be at the top of the list. All of the players mentioned, aside from DeAndre Jordan, are very high on defensive IQ. (and DeAndre is not a great defender, he’s a good rim protector, but not great overall)

You need a minimum level of athleticism though. Some players don’t have a chance because they lack the lateral quickness to stay with their man. It’s also close to impossible to be a rim protector without good elevation. e.g. Zach Randolph. Whereas Blake Griffin has the athleticism to block shots, but doesn’t seem to understand the anticipation.

 You need athleticism just as much as the 4 things you’ve listed … put Bill Russells IQ into the body of Brian Scalabrine do you think he’s gonna be a shut down center ??? …. at the end of the day you need the physical attributes and the knowledge to be an elite defender 

 You need athleticism just as much as the 4 things you’ve listed … put Bill Russells IQ into the body of Brian Scalabrine do you think he’s gonna be a shut down center ??? …. at the end of the day you need the physical attributes and the knowledge to be an elite defender 

I actually think you need more athleticism to play defense than offense.

There are a lot of great shooters out there who play in the NBA — because they can shoot.  Not the quickest feet but they can get a shot off pretty quick.

Then you have a guy like Z Bo inside who is really, really long and uses his bulk to his advantage.  You can see him being like Moses Malone and still scoring inside and pounding the boards until he is 40.  BUT his defense is sliding and his DEFENSE will retire him out of the league before his OFFENSE does. 

Now I am wondering when guys generally peak on defense?

I think most guys peak overall in their 6th to 8th season before they hit 30.  But, this might be when they peak offensively.  Wonder when the peak on defense? 

I bet LeBron peaked a couple of years ago on defense (losing weight should help though), but he is more well rounded offensively. 

Taken to the extreme, yeah, Steve Kerr can still shoot but he hasn’t been able to guard anybody in 15 (20?) years, if ever. 

Guess we could settle this by finding out if the oldest MVP (based largely on offense) has been older than the league’s oldest DPOY.  Of course, an ageless freak like Dikembe Mutombo probably skewed these results, but I need to double check.

I do know that Jordan has a couple of MVP awards from the mid-Nineties but he won his only DPOY award in the Eighties.

I actually think you need more athleticism to play defense than offense.

There are a lot of great shooters out there who play in the NBA — because they can shoot.  Not the quickest feet but they can get a shot off pretty quick.

Then you have a guy like Z Bo inside who is really, really long and uses his bulk to his advantage.  You can see him being like Moses Malone and still scoring inside and pounding the boards until he is 40.  BUT his defense is sliding and his DEFENSE will retire him out of the league before his OFFENSE does. 

Now I am wondering when guys generally peak on defense?

I think most guys peak overall in their 6th to 8th season before they hit 30.  But, this might be when they peak offensively.  Wonder when the peak on defense? 

I bet LeBron peaked a couple of years ago on defense (losing weight should help though), but he is more well rounded offensively. 

Taken to the extreme, yeah, Steve Kerr can still shoot but he hasn’t been able to guard anybody in 15 (20?) years, if ever. 

Guess we could settle this by finding out if the oldest MVP (based largely on offense) has been older than the league’s oldest DPOY.  Of course, an ageless freak like Dikembe Mutombo probably skewed these results, but I need to double check.

I do know that Jordan has a couple of MVP awards from the mid-Nineties but he won his only DPOY award in the Eighties.

I have no problem with the statement of "athleticism (does not equal) defensive ability". Where I think it went a bit off the rails is using defensive rating to assume that Carlos Boozer is a better defender than say, Blake Griffin. Yes, he had a 98 DRtg compared to Blake’s 103. However, the Bulls as a team averaged 100.5 DRtg overall and the Clippers where at a 104.8 DRtg. As the originator of defensive rating (Dean Oliver) exclaims, individual defensive ratings are heavily influenced by team defense. Plus, it is an estimate. So, throw that in, still need to use a human component to determine whether the individual is a good defender.

No doubt, the Pacers and Bulls were two of the best team defenses, with some strong individual defenders. However, looking at Boozer’s track record (not to mention his 95/98 ORtg to DRtg ratio and the nice 95 to 106 ratio of the same he had in the play-offs), it is easy to see why one would be skeptical using this as evidence of his defensive ability. Now, you may respond, "well, I used defensive WIN SHARES instead of rating". Touche. We’ll save that from happening by stating that this same analytic relies on Dean Oliver’s Defensive Rating and is equally if not more so reliant on TEAM defensive rating. So, when using this statistic to view as a good defender, approach with caution.

Now, I will say, the system is INCREDIBLY important in defensive success. I mean, people actually were giving me the "LeBron barely makes Miami better defensively" based on analytics, to which I say, "REALLY?" (In my Kyle from South Park voice). It is true, Miami or team defense, LeBron may not have been as dialed in as normal, but he is still obviously a MAJOR difference maker defensively. One of the better defenders in the league, most would agree. Also, Al Jefferson’s lack of lateral quickness has made him a liability and the Warriors were afraid to trade for Kevin Love due to Klay Thompson covering up Curry’s defensive issues. Despite there being among the Defensive Win Share leaders, this is based MUCH more on team defense. Not to mention it takes into account minutes and games played, so it is not an average rating that takes it on an individual game basis.

With this on the table, you are right in some regards. It is not like James Harden is lacking in athleticism, plus am surprised no one has brought up Vince Carter as an incredible athlete never known for his defensive prowess. Defense seems to rely on awareness, length and the willingness or effort to play it more so than athleticism at the NBA level. Lack of lateral quickness certainly can make one a liability and speed certainly helps. Vertical leap certainly does not lead to great defenders. Most blocks take place on length and timing as opposed to being able to jump high (despite the usual block highlights that are shown). Eddy Curry was actually a very solid jump athlete and had crazy long arms. He not only was a poor defender, but was never a major shot blocking threat even at his best. It is knowing when to jump or having awareness of tendencies, it really is an art.

Honestly, analytics for individual defense right now are not fantastic. Synergy breaks things down pretty well, though until it takes into account where a player is on the court in terms of preventing the other team or individual they are guarding from scoring, their will be margin for error in using it as gospel. It is not really purely black and white as far as what makes a good defender, though I like what you mentioned. The majority of players considered the NBA’s best individual defenders did indeed use size and athleticism to their advantage. Effort is a huge part and I think conditioning is BIG time as far as being more than a one side of the ball player.

Athleticism is not the end all of defensive ability, though lateral quickness absolutely helps, as does size and overall court awareness. Some older players actually become more valuable defenders just based off of knowledge and experience, also, Vince Carter is an example in my mind. It is knowing angles and scouting players, plus getting the right coach system or personnel to make a good defense. Some strong individual defenders play on bad teams at times, one player rarely changes an entire defense. All in all, it is a team game and mediocre to poor individual defenders can at times be great scheme or help defenders.

Defense is not always just about being an athlete, though if you can move well or have size, defensive potential is certainly there. As far as draftable prospects, it is definitely not only based on athleticism as we know they have a track record which gives an idea of whether or not they know what they are doing on defense. Potential is always there and I do not think every young athletic player is considered to be a potential lock down, though they in many cases at least have potential to get better. If you have any particular examples that inspired this, would be interested in hearing them. Think that using defensive rating or defensive win shares as a tool to distinguish these players as top defenders is a tad misleading, though.

I have no problem with the statement of "athleticism (does not equal) defensive ability". Where I think it went a bit off the rails is using defensive rating to assume that Carlos Boozer is a better defender than say, Blake Griffin. Yes, he had a 98 DRtg compared to Blake’s 103. However, the Bulls as a team averaged 100.5 DRtg overall and the Clippers where at a 104.8 DRtg. As the originator of defensive rating (Dean Oliver) exclaims, individual defensive ratings are heavily influenced by team defense. Plus, it is an estimate. So, throw that in, still need to use a human component to determine whether the individual is a good defender.

No doubt, the Pacers and Bulls were two of the best team defenses, with some strong individual defenders. However, looking at Boozer’s track record (not to mention his 95/98 ORtg to DRtg ratio and the nice 95 to 106 ratio of the same he had in the play-offs), it is easy to see why one would be skeptical using this as evidence of his defensive ability. Now, you may respond, "well, I used defensive WIN SHARES instead of rating". Touche. We’ll save that from happening by stating that this same analytic relies on Dean Oliver’s Defensive Rating and is equally if not more so reliant on TEAM defensive rating. So, when using this statistic to view as a good defender, approach with caution.

Now, I will say, the system is INCREDIBLY important in defensive success. I mean, people actually were giving me the "LeBron barely makes Miami better defensively" based on analytics, to which I say, "REALLY?" (In my Kyle from South Park voice). It is true, Miami or team defense, LeBron may not have been as dialed in as normal, but he is still obviously a MAJOR difference maker defensively. One of the better defenders in the league, most would agree. Also, Al Jefferson’s lack of lateral quickness has made him a liability and the Warriors were afraid to trade for Kevin Love due to Klay Thompson covering up Curry’s defensive issues. Despite there being among the Defensive Win Share leaders, this is based MUCH more on team defense. Not to mention it takes into account minutes and games played, so it is not an average rating that takes it on an individual game basis.

With this on the table, you are right in some regards. It is not like James Harden is lacking in athleticism, plus am surprised no one has brought up Vince Carter as an incredible athlete never known for his defensive prowess. Defense seems to rely on awareness, length and the willingness or effort to play it more so than athleticism at the NBA level. Lack of lateral quickness certainly can make one a liability and speed certainly helps. Vertical leap certainly does not lead to great defenders. Most blocks take place on length and timing as opposed to being able to jump high (despite the usual block highlights that are shown). Eddy Curry was actually a very solid jump athlete and had crazy long arms. He not only was a poor defender, but was never a major shot blocking threat even at his best. It is knowing when to jump or having awareness of tendencies, it really is an art.

Honestly, analytics for individual defense right now are not fantastic. Synergy breaks things down pretty well, though until it takes into account where a player is on the court in terms of preventing the other team or individual they are guarding from scoring, their will be margin for error in using it as gospel. It is not really purely black and white as far as what makes a good defender, though I like what you mentioned. The majority of players considered the NBA’s best individual defenders did indeed use size and athleticism to their advantage. Effort is a huge part and I think conditioning is BIG time as far as being more than a one side of the ball player.

Athleticism is not the end all of defensive ability, though lateral quickness absolutely helps, as does size and overall court awareness. Some older players actually become more valuable defenders just based off of knowledge and experience, also, Vince Carter is an example in my mind. It is knowing angles and scouting players, plus getting the right coach system or personnel to make a good defense. Some strong individual defenders play on bad teams at times, one player rarely changes an entire defense. All in all, it is a team game and mediocre to poor individual defenders can at times be great scheme or help defenders.

Defense is not always just about being an athlete, though if you can move well or have size, defensive potential is certainly there. As far as draftable prospects, it is definitely not only based on athleticism as we know they have a track record which gives an idea of whether or not they know what they are doing on defense. Potential is always there and I do not think every young athletic player is considered to be a potential lock down, though they in many cases at least have potential to get better. If you have any particular examples that inspired this, would be interested in hearing them. Think that using defensive rating or defensive win shares as a tool to distinguish these players as top defenders is a tad misleading, though.