This topic contains 36 replies, has 9 voices, and was last updated by 
- AuthorPosts
- Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 4:54am #57565
caray12ParticipantI’ve been reading a lot about this John Wall vs Kyrie Irving debate. People argue who is the better player and who you will build your team around. Honestly John Wall is the better player and the player I would build my team around. Yes Kyrie Irving is very exiting playing his 1 vs 5 game, his jump shot, his craftiness, and his crossover. But that don’t win games as the main key to your team. I expect point guards to elevate their teams play and Kyrie don’t do it and he have a really talented team last year in Dion Waiters, Luol Deng, Andrew Bynum, Andy Varoujo, Tristan Thompson, Jared Jack, CJ Miles, Alonzo Gee, and Anthony Bennett. So they had a pretty talented team that should’ve made the playoffs last year. They had locker room issues and the main person that was in the middle of the issues was Kyrie Irving and your leader shouldn’t be in the middle and your point guard shouldn’t let his team have those problems. The Wizards has an equally talented team with Bradley Beal, Trevor Ariza, Martell Webster, Nene, Andre Miller, Marcin Gortat, and Otto Porter. John Wall led his team to the playoffs with in my opinion less talent and depth.
I’m going to do a list to see what areas of the game of which who is better.
Shooting: Kyrie Irving > John Wall
Finishing: Kyrie Irving < John Wall
Passing: Kyrie Irving < John Wall
Defense: Kyrie Irving < John Wall
Efficiency: Kyrie Irving > John Wall
Ability to make players better Kyrie Irving < John Wall
Leader: Kyrie Irving < John Wall
Potential: Kyrie Irving < John Wall
John Wall is a natural point guard and more overall player than Kyrie Irving. Kyrie Irving is more fun to watch player in many opinion than John Wall but I like the way he runs the show and that make me want to watch him play. Both players are exceptional talents and both are great NBA players but John Wall stick out as one of the best players in the game and nobody talk about him as they should. You can make an argument that John Wall is the most valuable player in the league because of what he means to his team and if you take him off the team they will really struggle. I can’t think of anyone player that mean that much to their team that if you take that one player you will lose so much when he’s gone last year. In my opinion John Wall was the second best overall point guard last year behind Chris Paul and he is a top 3 overall point guard in the league alongside Paul and Russell Westbrook. I like building teams that has an overall great talent that the player plays both offense and defense and be able to lead. And John Wall plays both ends and he leads.
Thoughts……
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 5:48am #940353
sweaterflexParticipantI would probably take Wall over Irving all things equal because of Irving’s terrible defense, but comparing them in their team settings from last year is difficult. Dion Waiters’ playing style is a much worse fit compared to Bradley Beal as a backcourt partner. Andy V played 25 games. Anthony Bennett was out of shape. Tristan Thompson has no offensive game to speak of. Bynum was quickly jettisoned. Luol Deng was dispirited after the trade.
Wall is elite at creating corner 3s and had available shooters to knock them down. Nene is a good post player, and Gortat works well in the pick ‘n’ roll. Wall is one of the top 5 atheletes in the game, but he doesn’t always play that way. He doesn’t crash the glass like Westbrook or make weakside blocks like vintage D-Wade. Wall also has zero range. Both teams had terrible coaches, but at least the Wiz’s players fit together. The future comp hinges on whether Wall can develop any range or if Irving learns to play defense.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 5:48am #940221
sweaterflexParticipantI would probably take Wall over Irving all things equal because of Irving’s terrible defense, but comparing them in their team settings from last year is difficult. Dion Waiters’ playing style is a much worse fit compared to Bradley Beal as a backcourt partner. Andy V played 25 games. Anthony Bennett was out of shape. Tristan Thompson has no offensive game to speak of. Bynum was quickly jettisoned. Luol Deng was dispirited after the trade.
Wall is elite at creating corner 3s and had available shooters to knock them down. Nene is a good post player, and Gortat works well in the pick ‘n’ roll. Wall is one of the top 5 atheletes in the game, but he doesn’t always play that way. He doesn’t crash the glass like Westbrook or make weakside blocks like vintage D-Wade. Wall also has zero range. Both teams had terrible coaches, but at least the Wiz’s players fit together. The future comp hinges on whether Wall can develop any range or if Irving learns to play defense.
0- Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 6:05am #940361
caray12ParticipantThat’s disrespectful to John Wall saying he haves no range on his jump shot when he hit 100 3’s last year while shooting close to 36% from downtown. John Wall average over 4 rebounds a game and he always gets blocks on a nightly basis. The Wizards is a much better defensive team when John Wall is on the court and the Wizards are a top 10 defensive teamteam last year and 2 years ago they was the second best and John Wall was key to that. When you talking about the team thing point guards suppose to make the people around them better and make it work. John Wall played for Nick Young, Gilbert Arenas, Javale McGee, and Andre Blache and he still average over 8 assist per game. I watch John Wall and Kyrie Irving and John Wall only struggle when facing small point guards like Isaiah Thomas.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 6:05am #940229
caray12ParticipantThat’s disrespectful to John Wall saying he haves no range on his jump shot when he hit 100 3’s last year while shooting close to 36% from downtown. John Wall average over 4 rebounds a game and he always gets blocks on a nightly basis. The Wizards is a much better defensive team when John Wall is on the court and the Wizards are a top 10 defensive teamteam last year and 2 years ago they was the second best and John Wall was key to that. When you talking about the team thing point guards suppose to make the people around them better and make it work. John Wall played for Nick Young, Gilbert Arenas, Javale McGee, and Andre Blache and he still average over 8 assist per game. I watch John Wall and Kyrie Irving and John Wall only struggle when facing small point guards like Isaiah Thomas.
0- Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 7:02am #940377
sweaterflexParticipantIf John Wall maintains his level from last year he would be an adequate outside shooter, but he is still under 31% for his career. John Wall had an "up" year and Irving had a "down" year and they had identical win shares/48 via basketball reference.com. Wall also leads the league in turnovers every year. Wall is likely better at making his teammates better, but Irving will not have to be a team leader for a long time. The league leader in assists has not won the ‘ship since Magic, so pass first point guards like Wall seem to have an up-hill battle.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 7:02am #940245
sweaterflexParticipantIf John Wall maintains his level from last year he would be an adequate outside shooter, but he is still under 31% for his career. John Wall had an "up" year and Irving had a "down" year and they had identical win shares/48 via basketball reference.com. Wall also leads the league in turnovers every year. Wall is likely better at making his teammates better, but Irving will not have to be a team leader for a long time. The league leader in assists has not won the ‘ship since Magic, so pass first point guards like Wall seem to have an up-hill battle.
0- Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 7:33am #940389
caray12ParticipantDuh he’s a 31% 3 point shooter for his career. It’s progression. He shot nearly 36% last year and that’s all that’s matter. He shot nearly identical to Paul George and James Harden. I like judging players off of the eye test because you don’t know what they did on the court and it’s a better judging measuring stick if you ask me. I’m not very fond of the advanced stats that everybody crave over. John Wall is not a pass first point guard. He’s like a mixture of both scoring and passing basically it’s 50/50 in the 2 categories. And Tony Parker won 4 championships, Rondo won a ring, and plenty of pass first/ combo of scoring and passing point guards did win a ring. Point guards that is score first didn’t win since Isaiah Thomas and that’s a fact.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 7:33am #940257
caray12ParticipantDuh he’s a 31% 3 point shooter for his career. It’s progression. He shot nearly 36% last year and that’s all that’s matter. He shot nearly identical to Paul George and James Harden. I like judging players off of the eye test because you don’t know what they did on the court and it’s a better judging measuring stick if you ask me. I’m not very fond of the advanced stats that everybody crave over. John Wall is not a pass first point guard. He’s like a mixture of both scoring and passing basically it’s 50/50 in the 2 categories. And Tony Parker won 4 championships, Rondo won a ring, and plenty of pass first/ combo of scoring and passing point guards did win a ring. Point guards that is score first didn’t win since Isaiah Thomas and that’s a fact.
0- Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 8:13am #940403
sweaterflexParticipantRondo averaged 5 assists a game the year Boston won. Tony Parker IS a shoot first point guard. No team has won the championship with a player averaging 8 assists per game since Magic. It might be a fluke, but high usage wing players and dominant bigs win. Even when LeBron averaged 8.6 assists the Cavs didn’t make it to the finals. Even when Jordan averaged 8 assists that one year they didn’t make the finals.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 8:13am #940272
sweaterflexParticipantRondo averaged 5 assists a game the year Boston won. Tony Parker IS a shoot first point guard. No team has won the championship with a player averaging 8 assists per game since Magic. It might be a fluke, but high usage wing players and dominant bigs win. Even when LeBron averaged 8.6 assists the Cavs didn’t make it to the finals. Even when Jordan averaged 8 assists that one year they didn’t make the finals.
0
- Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 11:22am #940326
tuck243ParticipantFor all the praise that CP3 gets, he was outplayed by Westbrook in the playoffs… I understand a PG is suppose to get his teammates involved, but he also have to win the game… For all the love that Blake Griffin receives he’s still not a go to player in the playoffs… ALA half court… He has a hard time backing down the defense and turn his shoulder for a hook… He rather bull doze you off the position and go straight up… Either causing a foul or a turnover… That doesn’t work in the playoffs… So, it brings me to CP3…
For a guy that’s a PG to shoot over 50% is great… He can literally get his shot whenever he wants it… Which is a problem for Kyrie… The issue with CP3 is that he should be a little bit more selfish and take more shots… It’s no way I should look at a Clippers loss and see CP3 was 7-10 and 10 assists… No way… If everyone else isn’t hitting, he should then look for his own shot… He made a statement after the game hitting all those 3’s… Something like "I’m a Point Guard… That’s MY job"… I think he’s not comfortable taking the scoring load… Which is fine, but it’s hard for his team because he’s normally the best option in crucial parts of the game…
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 11:22am #940458
tuck243ParticipantFor all the praise that CP3 gets, he was outplayed by Westbrook in the playoffs… I understand a PG is suppose to get his teammates involved, but he also have to win the game… For all the love that Blake Griffin receives he’s still not a go to player in the playoffs… ALA half court… He has a hard time backing down the defense and turn his shoulder for a hook… He rather bull doze you off the position and go straight up… Either causing a foul or a turnover… That doesn’t work in the playoffs… So, it brings me to CP3…
For a guy that’s a PG to shoot over 50% is great… He can literally get his shot whenever he wants it… Which is a problem for Kyrie… The issue with CP3 is that he should be a little bit more selfish and take more shots… It’s no way I should look at a Clippers loss and see CP3 was 7-10 and 10 assists… No way… If everyone else isn’t hitting, he should then look for his own shot… He made a statement after the game hitting all those 3’s… Something like "I’m a Point Guard… That’s MY job"… I think he’s not comfortable taking the scoring load… Which is fine, but it’s hard for his team because he’s normally the best option in crucial parts of the game…
0
- Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 7:02am #940379
JordoParticipantI personally like Wall more because he adapts to the personnel around him, more true of a PG. His first 2 years, crap teammates, a lot of highlights, a lot of losing(similar to Irving) but he still made his teammates better and avg 8 apg with the like of Javale McGee, Andray Blatche, Nick Young, Rashard Lewis, Yi Jianlian, Josh Howard, Jordan Crawford etc. They put Nene, Ariza, Gortat, Okafor, Webster, Beal around him and now they start to win games, Wall becones the leader of the Wizards and they play defense. Irving has yet to do those things but with Lebron back in Cleveland i find it hard to see Irving not take his game up another level because I know he hears the criticism. If we are talking stats its Irving but Wall has got his team to the playoffs and can turn the corner next year if they can build off thier success last year.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 7:02am #940247
JordoParticipantI personally like Wall more because he adapts to the personnel around him, more true of a PG. His first 2 years, crap teammates, a lot of highlights, a lot of losing(similar to Irving) but he still made his teammates better and avg 8 apg with the like of Javale McGee, Andray Blatche, Nick Young, Rashard Lewis, Yi Jianlian, Josh Howard, Jordan Crawford etc. They put Nene, Ariza, Gortat, Okafor, Webster, Beal around him and now they start to win games, Wall becones the leader of the Wizards and they play defense. Irving has yet to do those things but with Lebron back in Cleveland i find it hard to see Irving not take his game up another level because I know he hears the criticism. If we are talking stats its Irving but Wall has got his team to the playoffs and can turn the corner next year if they can build off thier success last year.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 7:46am #940395
TRC1991ParticipantI actually like Kyrie more…Kyrie is more smooth and has a ton of potential offensively – just wait til he has some talent surrounding him. Aside from the explosive finishes, I don’t see Wall being a whole lot better at any of the things you claim he is
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 7:46am #940264
TRC1991ParticipantI actually like Kyrie more…Kyrie is more smooth and has a ton of potential offensively – just wait til he has some talent surrounding him. Aside from the explosive finishes, I don’t see Wall being a whole lot better at any of the things you claim he is
0- Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 7:55am #940399
caray12ParticipantI watch both players. Yes Kyrie is fun to watch and yes he haves a killer crossover but he don’t have the potential as John Wall has. It’s evident that Kyrie Irving is a me player and a score first player. Kyrie don’t make players better and he probably would never have the intangibles to do so. Every body know John Wall is a way better passer than Kyrie Irving, way better defender than Irving, and a better leader than Irving. If you have to build a team as the key guy it would be John Wall.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 7:55am #940268
caray12ParticipantI watch both players. Yes Kyrie is fun to watch and yes he haves a killer crossover but he don’t have the potential as John Wall has. It’s evident that Kyrie Irving is a me player and a score first player. Kyrie don’t make players better and he probably would never have the intangibles to do so. Every body know John Wall is a way better passer than Kyrie Irving, way better defender than Irving, and a better leader than Irving. If you have to build a team as the key guy it would be John Wall.
0
- Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 9:34am #940292
thricethefunParticipantI wonder if this debate will continue with Lebron (and possibly Love) in Cleveland. Kyrie wouldn’t see the ball nearly as much.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 9:34am #940423
thricethefunParticipantI wonder if this debate will continue with Lebron (and possibly Love) in Cleveland. Kyrie wouldn’t see the ball nearly as much.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 11:06am #940318
tuck243ParticipantBecause people who see assists and John Wall defensive abilities are quick to go with him…
Let’s break down their games should we?
For starters:
Kyrie Irving is a better finisher than John Wall… I would say Kyrie, Rondo, and TP are neck even as the best finishing point guards…
Shooting… Of course Kyrie…
Defense… Wall
Passing… Wall
Efficency… A toss up because both need to do different things for their team to win…
Which is why the comparison can stop there…
Kyrie’s issues:
Kyrie played with guys that need the ball in their hands in order to score… Outside of CJ Miles hitting shots, they were unable to get alot of points from spot up shooters… Which is always been an issue for Mike Brown offenses… There are stats to prove that Tristan plays significantly better when Kyrie is on the floor… So that not improving other players crap isn’t true… We’ve seen how easy it is for Kyrie to score and he’s able to make those great passes that we see from CP3… I think his issue is that he’s so good offensively he’s normally the best option most of the time… The Cavs underachieved this year, but they played and beaten alot of playoffs teams too… No matter the conference…
John Wall issues:
I’m glad he has improved his jump shot, but one year isn’t enough to call him a good shooter just yet… ESPECIALLY after that TERRIBLE shooting performance in the playoffs… I also think John gets too much credit from people nowadays… It’s reminiscent of Paul George beginning of the year…
A few things to note about the Wizards of last year…
1. Ariza and Gortat were in contract years… They are KNOWN for playing out of their minds in contract years… Which they did last year…
2. This was the first year that the Wizards core guys were all healthy at the same time… That line up they have should make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference…
3. Bradley Beal doesn’t get enough credit for what he provides the Wizards… He works best as a shooter off screens, but can also provide scoring on his own…
4. They won games they were suppose to win during the season. They didn’t have many wins versus playoff teams.
Now back to Wall…
I’m afraid that John Wall’s assists are around 9 per game because he’s not willing to score… The series versus the Pacers proved that… Nene had to tell him to shoot the ball… Once he regained confidence in his shot he had a great game shooting… That was only one game though… Obviously he’s improved his shot, but let’s not act like it’s deadly… Majority of his shots are open because they rather him settle for the jumper than drive in… He has to improve his shot to take the next step…
Also, this notion the John Wall is a GREAT leader? Or that he WINS games compared to Kyrie… John Wall went to the playoffs one year… And that is his 4th season… Kyrie haven’t, but that was his 3rd season… Let’s be fair, shall we?
Personally, it depends on how your team is set up… John Wall wouldn’t be a good fit with LeBron because his outside shot is just as good as Wade’s… You see how that changed the court spacing for the Heat…
A PG like Kyrie would be able to fit on any team… His issue is defense, but that’s effort not abilities… Another thing that should be noted is that John Wall isn’t locking PG’s up… He’s jumping into passing lanes and giving effort on that end on the floor…
My thoughts:
I think it’s a toss up and it really depends on if you have enough guys that can spread the floor with Wall… I’ll give the edge to Kyrie right now because he can do so many things offensively… With LeBron those 2 will be much better offensively than LeBron with D-Wade…
0- Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 12:17pm #940338
caray12ParticipantLet’s get the facts straight when Bradley Beal played without Wall he averaged 12 points and shot about 38% from the field and 31% from downtown. When John Wall came back Bradley Beal averaged 19 points and 46% from the 3 point line. Trevor Ariza never shot close to 40% from downtown….EVER…. Even in his last contact year he didn’t shoot this well. He elevates his teammates play and if you watch his game you would know how how he play and what he does for his team offensively and defensively. He don’t just play the passing lanes and chase down blocks. The two games he went up against Stephan Curry ( the best scoring point guard in the NBA ) John Wall made Stephan Curry struggle with his length and forced him to bad shots. He did the same thing to Damien Lillard for the first match up they went up against. If you watch you will know and if you made the argument that he struggle to defend small point guards you will have a point because he struggle against small points.
And back to the teammates I been reading that a lot of people believe Dion Waiters is better than Bradley Beal and before the season a lot of Cleveland fans said they had the better roster than the Wizards. The truth is Cleveland had the better team but they didn’t have the floor general to make the other players play up to their abilities. Cleveland had players that was on their contract year and I didn’t see their play increase. They had a dysfunctional locker room and it was between Kyrie Irving and Dion Waiters. So he wasn’t leading his team he was a nuisance to the team with rumors that he wanted out multiple times.
John Wall is a great leader. The Wizards would’ve went to the playoffs in his 3rd season if he was healthy. They was like 25-20 when he came back and they lost the final 4 games because they sat everybody because of injury. And everybody know they had the most laughable locker room that had a guy that brought a locker room, shaqtin’ a fool winner in Javale McGee, shaqtin’ a fool runner up in Nick Young, Andre Blache, and many players that’s not in the NBA no more. And John Wall was still averaging 8 assist per game with ball hogs on the roster and players that plays in the summer league, d league, and oversees now.
1) Kyrie Irving never played more than 60 games in a season
2) His team played better when he was injured
3) Teammates do not like playing with him
4) Players enjoy playing with John Wall
5) John Wall continuously improve every year
6) Kyrie Irving is going in the opposite direction
7) John Wall has more potential
How do you know Kyrie Irving fits with everybody. Do he fit with Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant, and many more other scorers in the league. Yeah, he fits better with LeBron James because LeBron James is a point guard and Kyrie Irving is practically a shooting guard. Kyrie won’t fit with James Harden, Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant and more. He will get the ball where they needed the most.
And don’t talk about playoffs if Kyrie Irving never made it to the playoffs and you won’t know what would he do in the playoffs. So let’s get this straight don’t talk about playoffs if you didn’t make it to the playoffs.
And to the fact that you said they didn’t win games against playoff opponents is laughable. They split with Golden State, Oklahoma City, Portland, should’ve beat Houston but James Harden flopped at the end of the game, took San Antonio to overtime, blew out Miami 2 times, swept Chicago, won the season series vs the Atlanta and swept Brooklyn. And your points should be why Cleveland should’ve made the playoffs last year. They didn’t made the playoffs and you seem like a fan that always will be bias about your team.
And if you watch John Wall it will prove me right that he is a leader. And don’t bring up what Kyrie Irving haves to deal with when John Wall went through much worst.
And what do LeBron James have to do with this conversation?
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 12:17pm #940469
caray12ParticipantLet’s get the facts straight when Bradley Beal played without Wall he averaged 12 points and shot about 38% from the field and 31% from downtown. When John Wall came back Bradley Beal averaged 19 points and 46% from the 3 point line. Trevor Ariza never shot close to 40% from downtown….EVER…. Even in his last contact year he didn’t shoot this well. He elevates his teammates play and if you watch his game you would know how how he play and what he does for his team offensively and defensively. He don’t just play the passing lanes and chase down blocks. The two games he went up against Stephan Curry ( the best scoring point guard in the NBA ) John Wall made Stephan Curry struggle with his length and forced him to bad shots. He did the same thing to Damien Lillard for the first match up they went up against. If you watch you will know and if you made the argument that he struggle to defend small point guards you will have a point because he struggle against small points.
And back to the teammates I been reading that a lot of people believe Dion Waiters is better than Bradley Beal and before the season a lot of Cleveland fans said they had the better roster than the Wizards. The truth is Cleveland had the better team but they didn’t have the floor general to make the other players play up to their abilities. Cleveland had players that was on their contract year and I didn’t see their play increase. They had a dysfunctional locker room and it was between Kyrie Irving and Dion Waiters. So he wasn’t leading his team he was a nuisance to the team with rumors that he wanted out multiple times.
John Wall is a great leader. The Wizards would’ve went to the playoffs in his 3rd season if he was healthy. They was like 25-20 when he came back and they lost the final 4 games because they sat everybody because of injury. And everybody know they had the most laughable locker room that had a guy that brought a locker room, shaqtin’ a fool winner in Javale McGee, shaqtin’ a fool runner up in Nick Young, Andre Blache, and many players that’s not in the NBA no more. And John Wall was still averaging 8 assist per game with ball hogs on the roster and players that plays in the summer league, d league, and oversees now.
1) Kyrie Irving never played more than 60 games in a season
2) His team played better when he was injured
3) Teammates do not like playing with him
4) Players enjoy playing with John Wall
5) John Wall continuously improve every year
6) Kyrie Irving is going in the opposite direction
7) John Wall has more potential
How do you know Kyrie Irving fits with everybody. Do he fit with Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant, and many more other scorers in the league. Yeah, he fits better with LeBron James because LeBron James is a point guard and Kyrie Irving is practically a shooting guard. Kyrie won’t fit with James Harden, Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Kobe Bryant and more. He will get the ball where they needed the most.
And don’t talk about playoffs if Kyrie Irving never made it to the playoffs and you won’t know what would he do in the playoffs. So let’s get this straight don’t talk about playoffs if you didn’t make it to the playoffs.
And to the fact that you said they didn’t win games against playoff opponents is laughable. They split with Golden State, Oklahoma City, Portland, should’ve beat Houston but James Harden flopped at the end of the game, took San Antonio to overtime, blew out Miami 2 times, swept Chicago, won the season series vs the Atlanta and swept Brooklyn. And your points should be why Cleveland should’ve made the playoffs last year. They didn’t made the playoffs and you seem like a fan that always will be bias about your team.
And if you watch John Wall it will prove me right that he is a leader. And don’t bring up what Kyrie Irving haves to deal with when John Wall went through much worst.
And what do LeBron James have to do with this conversation?
0
- Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 11:06am #940449
tuck243ParticipantBecause people who see assists and John Wall defensive abilities are quick to go with him…
Let’s break down their games should we?
For starters:
Kyrie Irving is a better finisher than John Wall… I would say Kyrie, Rondo, and TP are neck even as the best finishing point guards…
Shooting… Of course Kyrie…
Defense… Wall
Passing… Wall
Efficency… A toss up because both need to do different things for their team to win…
Which is why the comparison can stop there…
Kyrie’s issues:
Kyrie played with guys that need the ball in their hands in order to score… Outside of CJ Miles hitting shots, they were unable to get alot of points from spot up shooters… Which is always been an issue for Mike Brown offenses… There are stats to prove that Tristan plays significantly better when Kyrie is on the floor… So that not improving other players crap isn’t true… We’ve seen how easy it is for Kyrie to score and he’s able to make those great passes that we see from CP3… I think his issue is that he’s so good offensively he’s normally the best option most of the time… The Cavs underachieved this year, but they played and beaten alot of playoffs teams too… No matter the conference…
John Wall issues:
I’m glad he has improved his jump shot, but one year isn’t enough to call him a good shooter just yet… ESPECIALLY after that TERRIBLE shooting performance in the playoffs… I also think John gets too much credit from people nowadays… It’s reminiscent of Paul George beginning of the year…
A few things to note about the Wizards of last year…
1. Ariza and Gortat were in contract years… They are KNOWN for playing out of their minds in contract years… Which they did last year…
2. This was the first year that the Wizards core guys were all healthy at the same time… That line up they have should make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference…
3. Bradley Beal doesn’t get enough credit for what he provides the Wizards… He works best as a shooter off screens, but can also provide scoring on his own…
4. They won games they were suppose to win during the season. They didn’t have many wins versus playoff teams.
Now back to Wall…
I’m afraid that John Wall’s assists are around 9 per game because he’s not willing to score… The series versus the Pacers proved that… Nene had to tell him to shoot the ball… Once he regained confidence in his shot he had a great game shooting… That was only one game though… Obviously he’s improved his shot, but let’s not act like it’s deadly… Majority of his shots are open because they rather him settle for the jumper than drive in… He has to improve his shot to take the next step…
Also, this notion the John Wall is a GREAT leader? Or that he WINS games compared to Kyrie… John Wall went to the playoffs one year… And that is his 4th season… Kyrie haven’t, but that was his 3rd season… Let’s be fair, shall we?
Personally, it depends on how your team is set up… John Wall wouldn’t be a good fit with LeBron because his outside shot is just as good as Wade’s… You see how that changed the court spacing for the Heat…
A PG like Kyrie would be able to fit on any team… His issue is defense, but that’s effort not abilities… Another thing that should be noted is that John Wall isn’t locking PG’s up… He’s jumping into passing lanes and giving effort on that end on the floor…
My thoughts:
I think it’s a toss up and it really depends on if you have enough guys that can spread the floor with Wall… I’ll give the edge to Kyrie right now because he can do so many things offensively… With LeBron those 2 will be much better offensively than LeBron with D-Wade…
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 5:24pm #940563
JJ_PRParticipantShooting: Kyrie Irving > John Wall
Finishing: Kyrie Irving > John Wall
Passing: Kyrie Irving = John Wall
Defense: Kyrie Irving John Wall
Ability to make players better Kyrie Irving = John Wall
Leader: Kyrie Irving = John Wall
Potential: Kyrie Irving = John Wall
Seeing your post makes me think you’re a Wizards fan. Are you telling me that Wall is a better finisher than Kyrie? Have you seen Kyrie play much? He’s one of the best finishers at his position, better than Wall actually.
They both have decent passing abilities, Kyrie made huge strides this season in that area with a bad supporting cast. I’d say they’re equal in that regard.
As for the ability to make teammates better, they’re both too young right now to consider them as players that can have that ability. I never really saw John Wall making his teammates better during the playoffs and neither of them are great leaders.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 5:24pm #940432
JJ_PRParticipantShooting: Kyrie Irving > John Wall
Finishing: Kyrie Irving > John Wall
Passing: Kyrie Irving = John Wall
Defense: Kyrie Irving John Wall
Ability to make players better Kyrie Irving = John Wall
Leader: Kyrie Irving = John Wall
Potential: Kyrie Irving = John Wall
Seeing your post makes me think you’re a Wizards fan. Are you telling me that Wall is a better finisher than Kyrie? Have you seen Kyrie play much? He’s one of the best finishers at his position, better than Wall actually.
They both have decent passing abilities, Kyrie made huge strides this season in that area with a bad supporting cast. I’d say they’re equal in that regard.
As for the ability to make teammates better, they’re both too young right now to consider them as players that can have that ability. I never really saw John Wall making his teammates better during the playoffs and neither of them are great leaders.
0- Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 5:56pm #940575
alex23ParticipantAnd seeing your post and username picture clearly indicates that you’re a biased Cavs fan. You lost all credibilty the minute I read Kyrie’s passing is equal to that of Wall’s.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 5:56pm #940444
alex23ParticipantAnd seeing your post and username picture clearly indicates that you’re a biased Cavs fan. You lost all credibilty the minute I read Kyrie’s passing is equal to that of Wall’s.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 7:37pm #940600
caray12ParticipantYeah I’m a Wizards fan and I make arguments for many subjects about many teams. I’ve made arguments about how Miami can still be a great team and if Phoenix can land both Eric Bledsoe and Greg Monroe they can be a great team. I’m a realist and says what need to be said. In can tell that your bias about your opinion because everybody know John Wall is the better passer.
Finishing goes to John Wall because he had a better field goal percentage in the paint than Kyrie Irving and averaged more paint points than he is. Just because Kyrie Irving does acrobatic layups than John Wall doesn’t mean he’s the better finisher. John Wall is a better passer than Kyrie Irving because he averaged more assist, he created others shots, and he give his teammates easy shots. It’s obvious that John Wall makes his teammates better than John Wall because when he plays his teammates stats and overall play be significantly better than if he’s off the court. When Kyrie Irving was injured and I was watching Cleveland play ( I like watching Dion Waiters ) they played better as a team without him playing and they had a better winning percentage while he was out. I also didn’t know that there’s an age restriction for the ability to making your teammates better. I say John Wall is the better leader because his teammates gravitate towards him and they look up to him to lead the team. And Kyrie Irving was in the center of a dysfunctional locker room starring him and Dion Waiters about him only giving up the ball to Tristan Thompson. Also, there was multiple reports stating by his camp that he didn’t want to be in Cleveland and that happened multiple times. Potential have to go with John Wall because of athletic ability, rawness, and physical tools. John Wall looks to be at least 6’5 215 pounds when he stand next to Derrick Rose and Damien Lillard. Yeah, Kyrie Irving is younger but he don’t have the athletic ability, rawness, and physical tools. I believe Kyrie Irving play is digressing since his rookie year. And my last point is that defense is 50% of the game and Kyrie Irving stinks on defense while John Wall is a top 5 defensive point guard. And Kyrie Irving didn’t make huge strides passing he only improved .2 assist to his stat line and by watching him he’s the same type of player.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 7:37pm #940468
caray12ParticipantYeah I’m a Wizards fan and I make arguments for many subjects about many teams. I’ve made arguments about how Miami can still be a great team and if Phoenix can land both Eric Bledsoe and Greg Monroe they can be a great team. I’m a realist and says what need to be said. In can tell that your bias about your opinion because everybody know John Wall is the better passer.
Finishing goes to John Wall because he had a better field goal percentage in the paint than Kyrie Irving and averaged more paint points than he is. Just because Kyrie Irving does acrobatic layups than John Wall doesn’t mean he’s the better finisher. John Wall is a better passer than Kyrie Irving because he averaged more assist, he created others shots, and he give his teammates easy shots. It’s obvious that John Wall makes his teammates better than John Wall because when he plays his teammates stats and overall play be significantly better than if he’s off the court. When Kyrie Irving was injured and I was watching Cleveland play ( I like watching Dion Waiters ) they played better as a team without him playing and they had a better winning percentage while he was out. I also didn’t know that there’s an age restriction for the ability to making your teammates better. I say John Wall is the better leader because his teammates gravitate towards him and they look up to him to lead the team. And Kyrie Irving was in the center of a dysfunctional locker room starring him and Dion Waiters about him only giving up the ball to Tristan Thompson. Also, there was multiple reports stating by his camp that he didn’t want to be in Cleveland and that happened multiple times. Potential have to go with John Wall because of athletic ability, rawness, and physical tools. John Wall looks to be at least 6’5 215 pounds when he stand next to Derrick Rose and Damien Lillard. Yeah, Kyrie Irving is younger but he don’t have the athletic ability, rawness, and physical tools. I believe Kyrie Irving play is digressing since his rookie year. And my last point is that defense is 50% of the game and Kyrie Irving stinks on defense while John Wall is a top 5 defensive point guard. And Kyrie Irving didn’t make huge strides passing he only improved .2 assist to his stat line and by watching him he’s the same type of player.
0- Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 8:31pm #940610
Jr. ROXASParticipantRight.. John Wall makes his teammates better than John Wall lol. And I hate that part last season when the media was all over the Cavaleirs end rumors were blown out of proportion and a whole lot of people took it seriously. Kyrie was hella adamant about his decision to stay in Cleveland, I do not know why or how those reports even started. Media just want to make up storylines to those up and coming players to gain more publicity. That contract Kyrie just signed this off-season pretty much dispells all the rumors that he wants to leave Ohio.
In terms of Kyrie’s skills, I don’t know where this argument of Kyrie is a terrible defender came from. He is not elite, but in smoe of the games I saw, he puts a decent effort on defending the opposing team’s point guard. His perceived ‘lack of passing skills’ also to bother me a lot. Throughout his career, he averaged 6 APG playing with a ball-dominant Dion Waiters, Mr. Stone Hands Tristan Thompson (who also can’t hit a midrange J) and Alonzo Gee. Yes, John Wall is a better passer, but I don’t Kyrie’s that far behind.
If there is one overrated point guard, IT SHOULD BE Damian Lillard. A lot of people love Lillard, so I’ll accept the hate. Don’t get me wrong, Lillard’s still a good player but, Kyrie gets tons of flack for being a ball-hog and bad passer but Lillard gets away with averaging 5.6 APG with a loaded starting lineup. Lillard is also as bad a defender as Kyrie, if not worse. That guy gets killed by opposing pgs ALL the time, seriously whether pick and roll or iso. At least Kyrie still gets 1.5 steals a game, and while some people will always argue that it is not a measure of how good a player plays defense, it still determines a player’ anticipation and nose for the passing lanes.
I’m no Kyrie fanatic but it just feels right to defend the guy. I feel like after a much hyped 2012-2013 season, a whole lot was expected for him and his team. Too bad mangement and coaching staff were boneheads. To a casual fan, and to a media’s perspective, Kyrie’s season will seem dissapointing. But in truth, he still had a solid season with a PER of 20.1 while also averaging only 2.7 TOs per game despite being top 5 in user percentage.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 8:31pm #940478
Jr. ROXASParticipantRight.. John Wall makes his teammates better than John Wall lol. And I hate that part last season when the media was all over the Cavaleirs end rumors were blown out of proportion and a whole lot of people took it seriously. Kyrie was hella adamant about his decision to stay in Cleveland, I do not know why or how those reports even started. Media just want to make up storylines to those up and coming players to gain more publicity. That contract Kyrie just signed this off-season pretty much dispells all the rumors that he wants to leave Ohio.
In terms of Kyrie’s skills, I don’t know where this argument of Kyrie is a terrible defender came from. He is not elite, but in smoe of the games I saw, he puts a decent effort on defending the opposing team’s point guard. His perceived ‘lack of passing skills’ also to bother me a lot. Throughout his career, he averaged 6 APG playing with a ball-dominant Dion Waiters, Mr. Stone Hands Tristan Thompson (who also can’t hit a midrange J) and Alonzo Gee. Yes, John Wall is a better passer, but I don’t Kyrie’s that far behind.
If there is one overrated point guard, IT SHOULD BE Damian Lillard. A lot of people love Lillard, so I’ll accept the hate. Don’t get me wrong, Lillard’s still a good player but, Kyrie gets tons of flack for being a ball-hog and bad passer but Lillard gets away with averaging 5.6 APG with a loaded starting lineup. Lillard is also as bad a defender as Kyrie, if not worse. That guy gets killed by opposing pgs ALL the time, seriously whether pick and roll or iso. At least Kyrie still gets 1.5 steals a game, and while some people will always argue that it is not a measure of how good a player plays defense, it still determines a player’ anticipation and nose for the passing lanes.
I’m no Kyrie fanatic but it just feels right to defend the guy. I feel like after a much hyped 2012-2013 season, a whole lot was expected for him and his team. Too bad mangement and coaching staff were boneheads. To a casual fan, and to a media’s perspective, Kyrie’s season will seem dissapointing. But in truth, he still had a solid season with a PER of 20.1 while also averaging only 2.7 TOs per game despite being top 5 in user percentage.
0- Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 9:42pm #940628
caray12ParticipantI’m not saying Kyrie Irving is overrated. I believe he’s a top 7 point guard in the league. It depends on who you prefer running you team and I would take John Wall. I believe John Wall and Kyrie Irving is the best two young point guards in the league and if you want to build around a score first point guard you go with Kyrie Irving and if you want to build around a passer you go with John Wall. I didn’t try to bash Kyrie Irving by any mean I go by what’s been reported and what I see on TV when I watch them play.
I don’t want to see Dame Lillard as overrated but he’s getting there. Dame Lillard haves the world around him but he only average 5 assist per game and most of his points comes from the 3 point line. Also he not really a good defender.
I just wanted to get that out of the air that I like Kyrie Irving but I was stating that I believe John Wall is the more complete player and that I would build the team around him.
0 - Posted on: Mon, 07/28/2014 - 9:42pm #940496
caray12ParticipantI’m not saying Kyrie Irving is overrated. I believe he’s a top 7 point guard in the league. It depends on who you prefer running you team and I would take John Wall. I believe John Wall and Kyrie Irving is the best two young point guards in the league and if you want to build around a score first point guard you go with Kyrie Irving and if you want to build around a passer you go with John Wall. I didn’t try to bash Kyrie Irving by any mean I go by what’s been reported and what I see on TV when I watch them play.
I don’t want to see Dame Lillard as overrated but he’s getting there. Dame Lillard haves the world around him but he only average 5 assist per game and most of his points comes from the 3 point line. Also he not really a good defender.
I just wanted to get that out of the air that I like Kyrie Irving but I was stating that I believe John Wall is the more complete player and that I would build the team around him.
0
- AuthorPosts
| You must be logged in to reply to this topic. | Login |