Wiggins at #2, its the right thing to do

This topic contains 56 replies, has 17 voices, and was last updated by jwall1 12 years, 4 months ago.

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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 5:56pm #53656

valentine
The fact that he is letting Embiid shine in that manner just makes him more valuable, he can share the spotlight thru his style of play, had his shot been shaky and mechanics off I would not label him the number two pick, but he happens to be able to balance his body mid air and letting the a ball float off his hand, although the ball doesn’t reach the rim in a rainbow manner his arms movements after realeasing the ball is inpecable and shows you the soft touch he does have. At the rim the talent and extreme soft touch together with the calmness he performs makes him look like a star. At 6’7 he will be able to play SG because he will be able to defend the position, with athleticism that rivals Paul George. And like always says (great quote btw) if you can defend the position he can play it. Land finally like I said long time ago, what is ultimately gonne separate Wiggins from Jabari is defense ala Lebron vs Carmelo, although other things play a role. This is not bold, the battle for the second and first for that letter is an open race, I feel like Wiggins is at 2 right now. With Jabari a lock at three
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 6:04pm #867152

TenSecondTom
Participant
I mean according to Chad Ford it seems like Wiggins and Embiid are currently battling for the no. 1 and 2 spots. A lot will be determined by draft order / needs. Also you have to consider the possibility that Embiid and/or Parker might return for a sophomore year. Wiggins will be a great player in the league once he learns to assert himself better, the tools are there though.
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 6:04pm #867048

TenSecondTom
Participant
I mean according to Chad Ford it seems like Wiggins and Embiid are currently battling for the no. 1 and 2 spots. A lot will be determined by draft order / needs. Also you have to consider the possibility that Embiid and/or Parker might return for a sophomore year. Wiggins will be a great player in the league once he learns to assert himself better, the tools are there though.
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 6:05pm #867154

frogman
Participant
The reason I like Wiggins over Parker is because he doesn’t need the ball as much as Parker. He just seems he would be the perfect 2nd option on a championship contender that can play off the ball and play great defence. Whereas Jabari the way he plays would almost certainly have to be a number one option as he needs the ball in his hands all the time.
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 6:05pm #867050

frogman
Participant
The reason I like Wiggins over Parker is because he doesn’t need the ball as much as Parker. He just seems he would be the perfect 2nd option on a championship contender that can play off the ball and play great defence. Whereas Jabari the way he plays would almost certainly have to be a number one option as he needs the ball in his hands all the time.
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 6:14pm #867160

Aran Smith
Keymaster
frogman- You want to use the #2 pick in one of the best drafts in recent memory on a guy that is going to be your 2nd option? Most teams don’t have numerous chances at a franchise talent. Most drafts don’t have numerous franchise talents. Some have none. Whomever takes Wiggins/Parker is going to be hoping they are the team’s savior, not a 2nd option.
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 6:14pm #867056

Aran Smith
Keymaster
frogman- You want to use the #2 pick in one of the best drafts in recent memory on a guy that is going to be your 2nd option? Most teams don’t have numerous chances at a franchise talent. Most drafts don’t have numerous franchise talents. Some have none. Whomever takes Wiggins/Parker is going to be hoping they are the team’s savior, not a 2nd option.
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- Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 11:54pm #867113
  
  frogman
  Participant
  Yeh that was worse case scenario, of course they will be asked to be number options on the terrible teams that will draft them. I’m just trying to say he can play off the ball which is an excellent trait for a superstar and stars would love playing with him moreso than Parker because he will demand the ball a lot more in half court sets ala Melo.
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- Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 11:54pm #867218
  
  frogman
  Participant
  Yeh that was worse case scenario, of course they will be asked to be number options on the terrible teams that will draft them. I’m just trying to say he can play off the ball which is an excellent trait for a superstar and stars would love playing with him moreso than Parker because he will demand the ball a lot more in half court sets ala Melo.
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 6:20pm #867162

Jayhawks2011
Participant
yes i agree that you probably don’t want to use your #2 pick on a second option, but if you look at the second option on the previous champions. They are all awesome players…

-wade
-Chandler*
-Pau
-Pierce
-Parker
-Shaq.

All those guys are amazing players. Is getting a second option on a championship thing really a bad pick??

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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 6:20pm #867058

Jayhawks2011
Participant
yes i agree that you probably don’t want to use your #2 pick on a second option, but if you look at the second option on the previous champions. They are all awesome players…

-wade
-Chandler*
-Pau
-Pierce
-Parker
-Shaq.

All those guys are amazing players. Is getting a second option on a championship thing really a bad pick??

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- Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 5:16am #867137
  
  benny15
  Participant
  agreed. and lets not forget that Kobe was the number 2 option for 3 straight championships. aside from the detroit pistons that dint have a clear first option either, i cant remember the last championship team that to not have at least an all-star level 2nd option.
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- Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 5:16am #867242
  
  benny15
  Participant
  agreed. and lets not forget that Kobe was the number 2 option for 3 straight championships. aside from the detroit pistons that dint have a clear first option either, i cant remember the last championship team that to not have at least an all-star level 2nd option.
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 6:22pm #867164

flopdownD
I think he will be able to be the number one option while completely being able to let someone shine, sorta like Kevin Durant
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 6:22pm #867060

flopdownD
I think he will be able to be the number one option while completely being able to let someone shine, sorta like Kevin Durant
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 7:00pm #867172

Ghost01
Participant
Please don’t put Wiggins and Kevin Durant in the same sentence.
Let’s make a note on the Kevin Durant thing though…he is the best scorer in the NBA, by some margin. The only reason another guy shares the spotlight is because that other guy is really good. It is no indictment on Durant, its the fact Westbrook is that good.
I am not saying Wiggins can’t/won’t/shouldn’t be number 2. But there is really no way to have this argument right now. The rest of this season will mean a lot. the combine will mean a lot. What Dante Exum looks like will mean a lot. All of these guys have had their ups and downs.
Until I see Wiggins dribble the ball like he know’s what he’s doing, I am going to continue to shoot down Paul George talk. PG gets a lot of buckets off the dribble. Andrew Wiggins really can’t dribble. I watched the majority of the game vs ISU the other night. He was definitely good, and he showed a lot of things that make him a unique athlete. But in a half court set, he still doesn’t look like a guy who gets me poiints when I need points. He looks like a guy who gets his points in opportunistic forms, which is fine. I know he is a good defender, but I just don’t think offensively he is there for me to say "number 2" right now. Sooooo much can happen between now and draft day.
And I agree with Aran that if you think Wiggins might be a number 2 guy…why would you pick him ahead of Jabari? I know Jabari has flaws but he clearly has the potential to be a no.1 scorer on a team. People forget how hard getting truly gifted scorers is.

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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 7:00pm #867068

Ghost01
Participant
Please don’t put Wiggins and Kevin Durant in the same sentence.
Let’s make a note on the Kevin Durant thing though…he is the best scorer in the NBA, by some margin. The only reason another guy shares the spotlight is because that other guy is really good. It is no indictment on Durant, its the fact Westbrook is that good.
I am not saying Wiggins can’t/won’t/shouldn’t be number 2. But there is really no way to have this argument right now. The rest of this season will mean a lot. the combine will mean a lot. What Dante Exum looks like will mean a lot. All of these guys have had their ups and downs.
Until I see Wiggins dribble the ball like he know’s what he’s doing, I am going to continue to shoot down Paul George talk. PG gets a lot of buckets off the dribble. Andrew Wiggins really can’t dribble. I watched the majority of the game vs ISU the other night. He was definitely good, and he showed a lot of things that make him a unique athlete. But in a half court set, he still doesn’t look like a guy who gets me poiints when I need points. He looks like a guy who gets his points in opportunistic forms, which is fine. I know he is a good defender, but I just don’t think offensively he is there for me to say "number 2" right now. Sooooo much can happen between now and draft day.
And I agree with Aran that if you think Wiggins might be a number 2 guy…why would you pick him ahead of Jabari? I know Jabari has flaws but he clearly has the potential to be a no.1 scorer on a team. People forget how hard getting truly gifted scorers is.

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- Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 7:16pm #867072
  
  marquee_mark
  Participant
  "he still doesn’t look like a guy who gets me poiints when I need points. He looks like a guy who gets his points in opportunistic forms, which is fine."
  That is incredibly well said and such a great point. His athleticism is undeniable, and it’s clear that he’s an extremely talented basketball player. Everything he does looks effortless and he looks so smooth on the court. But the fact that you can’t be confident that he can get you a bucket when you absolutely have to have one is a really glaring flaw.
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- Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 7:16pm #867176
  
  marquee_mark
  Participant
  "he still doesn’t look like a guy who gets me poiints when I need points. He looks like a guy who gets his points in opportunistic forms, which is fine."
  That is incredibly well said and such a great point. His athleticism is undeniable, and it’s clear that he’s an extremely talented basketball player. Everything he does looks effortless and he looks so smooth on the court. But the fact that you can’t be confident that he can get you a bucket when you absolutely have to have one is a really glaring flaw.
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- Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 7:35pm #867078
  
  TYO
  Participant
  Whenever ISU made a run Wiggins was there to make a play. KU’s system won’t have the wing dribbling a lot. And I saw this stat on twitter.
  "Since ACC play, Jabari Parker has scored 117 points on 105 shots. In Big 12 play Andrew Wiggins has scored 124 points on 79 shots."
  Wiggins is scoring while actually being efficient.
  
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  - Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 8:09pm #867084
    
    Ghost01
    Participant
    That’s fine and true, but its also totally irrelavent.
    You could argue that conference play is tougher, but realistically Duke has played mostly bad teams (including losing to bad teams) and finally got a nice W against Pitt the other night. KU has played quite a few ranked teams, but Wiggins best and most efficient game was vs mid-major level TCU at home.
    If you want to argue potential, argue potential. But as far as production goes, those who think Wiggins has been better are just wrong. The eye test itself tells you he gets a ton of those aformentioned buckets on easy shots, but the actual stats tell the same tale:
    Parker’s PER is 27.6 and Wiggins’ is 20.7. If you aren’t familar with PER, in comparison to the NBA a PER in the mid 27s is top 5 caliber, a PER around 20 is in the Bosh-Millsap-Lowry range.
    What is probably the most shocking thing advanced stats tell you, is that Wiggins actually is better at the shooting statistics like TS% and such, but Parker is better in all of the all around stats, including even DEFENSIVE ratings. Now I don’t think Parker is a better defender than Wiggins, but I also think Wiggins shooting efficiency is helped by the fact he gets a ton of uncontested shots, and he doesn’t take the tough shots Parker takes. Parker does take bad shots. But the best player on a team tends to take bad shots from time to time. This isn’t Melo/Jr Smith level chucking. He has been efficient overall which is what truly matters.
    
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    - Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 8:23pm #867088
      
      TYO
      Participant
      He was 10-16 yesterday against ISU. That’s slight a little bit more efficient than 8-13.
      To go along effienciency Jabari hasn’t shot over 50 pct in 10 games. Wiggins is more efficient because he takes smart shots..you won’t see Andrew trying step back 3’s. And like you said the numbers are great and all but there’s not even a debate on who the better defender is between the 2. I don’t want this to come off as a Jabari hate post because I think he’s a great prospect. But yeah right now I think Wiggins is playing better basketball. But I’m bias as a Jayhawk fan.
      
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    - Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 8:23pm #867192
      
      TYO
      Participant
      He was 10-16 yesterday against ISU. That’s slight a little bit more efficient than 8-13.
      To go along effienciency Jabari hasn’t shot over 50 pct in 10 games. Wiggins is more efficient because he takes smart shots..you won’t see Andrew trying step back 3’s. And like you said the numbers are great and all but there’s not even a debate on who the better defender is between the 2. I don’t want this to come off as a Jabari hate post because I think he’s a great prospect. But yeah right now I think Wiggins is playing better basketball. But I’m bias as a Jayhawk fan.
      
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    - Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 8:49am #867215
      mikeyvthedon
      Participant
      Taken from basketball-reference:
      
      In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that Offensive Ratings shouldn’t be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player’s ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team’s offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player’s ORtg should primarily be compared to those of other players in a similar role.
      Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team’s defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.
      Perhaps as a byproduct, big men tend to have the best Defensive Ratings (although Oliver notes that history’s best defensive teams were generally anchored by dominant defensive big men, suggesting that those types of players are the most important to a team’s defensive success). A corollary to this is that excellent perimeter defenders who don’t steal the ball a lot — for instance, Joe Dumars or Doug Christie — are underrated defensively by DRtg, and are prone to look only as good as their team’s overall defense performs.
      Lets also take into account that Jabari is playing the 4 spot, primarily, at Duke. While Wiggins is most definitely being asked to guard positions 1-3 on a regular basis. Feel he is being challenged much more defensively and is indeed, the better individual defender. So, do not get why defensive rating was capitalized in respect to this giving an argument towards Parker. Rodney Hood, a player on his own team, has a lower defensive rating than Parker and is definitely the better perimeter defender of the two. He was the one who guarded Lamar Patterson and held him to 4-14 shooting.
      Duke as a team has a lower defensive rating, so that also helps. It does not take into pace adjustment, nor does it take into account strength of schedule. As you can see by that last example, Doug Christie and Joe Dumars get screwed in this system. So, if you want to use a rating that has Carlos Boozer tied with LeBron James on the career scale and act like it means something, by all means do so. It just really does not mean what you think it does and I think that while you were trying to prove a point, defensive rating does not do that in this instance.
      Now, the PER thing. Their is so little overlap to comparing NBA and college PER’s. You can try to use it as a gauge of where NBA players are on the scale, but saying that Parker’s PER being 27 and Wiggins being 20.7 leaves out so many factors. There is a reason that ESPN always waits until the end of the season to do the NBA PER translator. It is something that actually takes into account the position and role or similarity one has to other prospects. PER again is something that tends to favor big men and in this context, Parker is in a better position to accumulate than Wiggins.
      The other huge thing PER leaves out again is the level of competition. That is why it is much better used as a tool in the NBA as opposed to the NCAA. In the NBA, you are pretty much going up against the same teams as everyone. There is a level of difference between everyone and of course the conferences make it slightly different. In the end, not a huge drop off. Not so for the NCAA. Kansas played a much harder schedule than Duke.
      Think this applies to non-conference and conference, as well. Duke played more home games and neutral site games than KU. They played each other, Duke has played Arizona and their schedule has not been terrible. Just not the same as Kansas. They didn’t go to Colorado (with Spencer Dinwiddie at the time) and Florida. They didn’t host an 18-1 San Diego St. team, nor have they faced the same start to conference challenges that Kansas handled.
      If you do want to compare PER for playing against teams in ones conference, Wiggins is at 20.24 and Jabari is at 20.28. Wiggins also still has a higher defensive rating than Parker, though his differential between that and his offensive rating is 14.1 while Parker is at 8.8. Now, these "uncontested shots" you speak of, is that part of your "easy buckets" quotient? Just know that the reason he gets them is probably more because of him than his teammates, necessarily. He has gotten way fewer of his shots assisted than Parker has. That at least shows something about his maybe, helping create these opportunies.
      Thinking Jabari Parker is better than Andrew Wiggins is one thing. Using these statistics as proof just does not do that. Jabari is a better shooter and does take tougher shots. He is also having a hell of a time doing so since ACC play has started. Meanwhile, though Wiggins has "drifted" through a couple games, he has really started to get it together and has put up a solid Big 12 sleight. Plus, if you look at how he has played overall against top teams, I do not think it makes him look bad in the least. I realize he is not putting up the same PER as Jabari Parker, though also realize that Parker isn’t putting up the same PER as Michael Beasley. Basketball reasons are what make Parker and Wiggins great prospects. This can be highlighted by stats, just think the ones being used do not do it justice. Plus, I do think you are leaving out quite a bit, especially writing off Jabari’s struggles by dwelling on those of Wiggins.
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      - Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 1:32pm #867406
        
        Ghost01
        Participant
        It is fine if you want to ignore PER. Hell, ignore stats in general.
        The reason I bring up stats is because I don’t think a hand full of games define a player. Sorry. You’re absolutely right, Parker has struggled more than Wiggins lately. But Wiggins has less tasks on both the offensive and defensive end of the floor than Parker. When Parker doesn’t play well, Duke sucks. When Wiggins doesn’t play well, KU has still beaten top 10 teams this year. I believe in the eye test and I believe in watching these players in terms of what they can and cannot do. But everyone on here wants to jump up and down because Wiggins has put up some good stat lines and Parker has been inefficient. But let’s look at Parker’s last 4 games:
        7-14, 23 points, 7 rebounds W
        5-12, 17 points, 15 rebounds W
        3-13, 14 points, 14 rebounds W
        7-19, 21 points, 11 rebounds W
        
        You are right, he has been inefficient. His team has also won 4 straight games handily. But this is his big "slump".
        Why don’t I like Wiggins? It has nothing to do with his good games or is his bad games or what the stats say. It’s two things:
        1. He drifts
        2. He can’t dribble
        
        Its really that easy. If I want a good NBA player, I think he will be that, if I want a franchise player, that scares me.
        
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      - Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 1:32pm #867301
        
        Ghost01
        Participant
        It is fine if you want to ignore PER. Hell, ignore stats in general.
        The reason I bring up stats is because I don’t think a hand full of games define a player. Sorry. You’re absolutely right, Parker has struggled more than Wiggins lately. But Wiggins has less tasks on both the offensive and defensive end of the floor than Parker. When Parker doesn’t play well, Duke sucks. When Wiggins doesn’t play well, KU has still beaten top 10 teams this year. I believe in the eye test and I believe in watching these players in terms of what they can and cannot do. But everyone on here wants to jump up and down because Wiggins has put up some good stat lines and Parker has been inefficient. But let’s look at Parker’s last 4 games:
        7-14, 23 points, 7 rebounds W
        5-12, 17 points, 15 rebounds W
        3-13, 14 points, 14 rebounds W
        7-19, 21 points, 11 rebounds W
        
        You are right, he has been inefficient. His team has also won 4 straight games handily. But this is his big "slump".
        Why don’t I like Wiggins? It has nothing to do with his good games or is his bad games or what the stats say. It’s two things:
        1. He drifts
        2. He can’t dribble
        
        Its really that easy. If I want a good NBA player, I think he will be that, if I want a franchise player, that scares me.
        
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        Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 2:06pm #867418
        
        mikeyvthedon
        Participant
        LOL. That is his slump. His shooting 7-19 against Pitt is getting "out of the slump". Saying Wiggins can’t dribble is ridiculous. Saying that he is not incredibly confident in close space and sometimes dribbles too high is real. Feel that you saying he "drifts" is getting a tad ridiculous, as he seems to be rapidly gaining confidence. Plus, Wiggins being on a better team than Parker does not mean Parker is necessarily the better player. He didn’t play well against one team who was a top 10 team at the time, though generally has indeed, played well. Played well against a lot of ranked teams.
        The thing about Wiggins that makes him an exciting prospect is that he does indeed combine a high level athleticism with an ability to know his spots on the court. He has not yet overexerted in an effort to get his, though he has generally not had too. Meanwhile, it is not like Jabari Parker is not playing with a bunch of top recruits and a possible lottery pick. Is not at least sort of puzzling as to why he is shooting so poorly since conference play has began. Are there not at least some questions about his conditioning? His ability to defend the perimeter? It is not like he is perfect, either.
        Guess my point is that your trying to defend him using statistics has not really done much. This was a guy you even expected to be more college ready than Wiggins. He is a better shooter and has more refined ball skills. Though, he is not really creating as much for his teammates in conference play and has had a much harder time scoring. Man, as a franchise player, I don’t see either as locks. Just also do not see as much of a divide as you seem to want to make it. You said Wiggins can’t shoot, you say he can’t dribble.
        Well, is there not such a thing as improvement? Or projection? Just seems like these are things he can work on, basketball wise. Will it be as easy for Parker to work on the athletic qualities and firming his body? Is his skill set THAT much more advanced than Andrew Wiggins to make him a sure thing? I think these are legitimate questions and your answer appears to be, yes. Still, that does not make it more right than other people who may not be so sure. Doesn’t mean I am right either, just not making the same "absolutes" you seem to be making in regards to a prospect you have never been incredibly fond of.
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        Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 2:06pm #867313
        
        mikeyvthedon
        Participant
        LOL. That is his slump. His shooting 7-19 against Pitt is getting "out of the slump". Saying Wiggins can’t dribble is ridiculous. Saying that he is not incredibly confident in close space and sometimes dribbles too high is real. Feel that you saying he "drifts" is getting a tad ridiculous, as he seems to be rapidly gaining confidence. Plus, Wiggins being on a better team than Parker does not mean Parker is necessarily the better player. He didn’t play well against one team who was a top 10 team at the time, though generally has indeed, played well. Played well against a lot of ranked teams.
        The thing about Wiggins that makes him an exciting prospect is that he does indeed combine a high level athleticism with an ability to know his spots on the court. He has not yet overexerted in an effort to get his, though he has generally not had too. Meanwhile, it is not like Jabari Parker is not playing with a bunch of top recruits and a possible lottery pick. Is not at least sort of puzzling as to why he is shooting so poorly since conference play has began. Are there not at least some questions about his conditioning? His ability to defend the perimeter? It is not like he is perfect, either.
        Guess my point is that your trying to defend him using statistics has not really done much. This was a guy you even expected to be more college ready than Wiggins. He is a better shooter and has more refined ball skills. Though, he is not really creating as much for his teammates in conference play and has had a much harder time scoring. Man, as a franchise player, I don’t see either as locks. Just also do not see as much of a divide as you seem to want to make it. You said Wiggins can’t shoot, you say he can’t dribble.
        Well, is there not such a thing as improvement? Or projection? Just seems like these are things he can work on, basketball wise. Will it be as easy for Parker to work on the athletic qualities and firming his body? Is his skill set THAT much more advanced than Andrew Wiggins to make him a sure thing? I think these are legitimate questions and your answer appears to be, yes. Still, that does not make it more right than other people who may not be so sure. Doesn’t mean I am right either, just not making the same "absolutes" you seem to be making in regards to a prospect you have never been incredibly fond of.
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    - Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 8:49am #867320
      mikeyvthedon
      Participant
      Taken from basketball-reference:
      
      In a later chapter of Basketball on Paper, Oliver emphasized that Offensive Ratings shouldn’t be viewed in a vacuum. Introducing a concept he called "Skill Curves", he acknowledged that a player’s ORtg needed to be judged in conjunction with his Usage Rate, a measure of how big a role the player fills in his team’s offense. The bigger the role, the more difficult it is to maintain a high ORtg; the smaller the role, the easier it is to be highly efficient. Because of this, Oliver stressed that a player’s ORtg should primarily be compared to those of other players in a similar role.
      Out of necessity (owing to a lack of defensive data in the basic boxscore), individual Defensive Ratings are heavily influenced by the team’s defensive efficiency. They assume that all teammates are equally good (per minute) at forcing non-steal turnovers and non-block misses, as well as assuming that all teammates face the same number of total possessions per minute.
      Perhaps as a byproduct, big men tend to have the best Defensive Ratings (although Oliver notes that history’s best defensive teams were generally anchored by dominant defensive big men, suggesting that those types of players are the most important to a team’s defensive success). A corollary to this is that excellent perimeter defenders who don’t steal the ball a lot — for instance, Joe Dumars or Doug Christie — are underrated defensively by DRtg, and are prone to look only as good as their team’s overall defense performs.
      Lets also take into account that Jabari is playing the 4 spot, primarily, at Duke. While Wiggins is most definitely being asked to guard positions 1-3 on a regular basis. Feel he is being challenged much more defensively and is indeed, the better individual defender. So, do not get why defensive rating was capitalized in respect to this giving an argument towards Parker. Rodney Hood, a player on his own team, has a lower defensive rating than Parker and is definitely the better perimeter defender of the two. He was the one who guarded Lamar Patterson and held him to 4-14 shooting.
      Duke as a team has a lower defensive rating, so that also helps. It does not take into pace adjustment, nor does it take into account strength of schedule. As you can see by that last example, Doug Christie and Joe Dumars get screwed in this system. So, if you want to use a rating that has Carlos Boozer tied with LeBron James on the career scale and act like it means something, by all means do so. It just really does not mean what you think it does and I think that while you were trying to prove a point, defensive rating does not do that in this instance.
      Now, the PER thing. Their is so little overlap to comparing NBA and college PER’s. You can try to use it as a gauge of where NBA players are on the scale, but saying that Parker’s PER being 27 and Wiggins being 20.7 leaves out so many factors. There is a reason that ESPN always waits until the end of the season to do the NBA PER translator. It is something that actually takes into account the position and role or similarity one has to other prospects. PER again is something that tends to favor big men and in this context, Parker is in a better position to accumulate than Wiggins.
      The other huge thing PER leaves out again is the level of competition. That is why it is much better used as a tool in the NBA as opposed to the NCAA. In the NBA, you are pretty much going up against the same teams as everyone. There is a level of difference between everyone and of course the conferences make it slightly different. In the end, not a huge drop off. Not so for the NCAA. Kansas played a much harder schedule than Duke.
      Think this applies to non-conference and conference, as well. Duke played more home games and neutral site games than KU. They played each other, Duke has played Arizona and their schedule has not been terrible. Just not the same as Kansas. They didn’t go to Colorado (with Spencer Dinwiddie at the time) and Florida. They didn’t host an 18-1 San Diego St. team, nor have they faced the same start to conference challenges that Kansas handled.
      If you do want to compare PER for playing against teams in ones conference, Wiggins is at 20.24 and Jabari is at 20.28. Wiggins also still has a higher defensive rating than Parker, though his differential between that and his offensive rating is 14.1 while Parker is at 8.8. Now, these "uncontested shots" you speak of, is that part of your "easy buckets" quotient? Just know that the reason he gets them is probably more because of him than his teammates, necessarily. He has gotten way fewer of his shots assisted than Parker has. That at least shows something about his maybe, helping create these opportunies.
      Thinking Jabari Parker is better than Andrew Wiggins is one thing. Using these statistics as proof just does not do that. Jabari is a better shooter and does take tougher shots. He is also having a hell of a time doing so since ACC play has started. Meanwhile, though Wiggins has "drifted" through a couple games, he has really started to get it together and has put up a solid Big 12 sleight. Plus, if you look at how he has played overall against top teams, I do not think it makes him look bad in the least. I realize he is not putting up the same PER as Jabari Parker, though also realize that Parker isn’t putting up the same PER as Michael Beasley. Basketball reasons are what make Parker and Wiggins great prospects. This can be highlighted by stats, just think the ones being used do not do it justice. Plus, I do think you are leaving out quite a bit, especially writing off Jabari’s struggles by dwelling on those of Wiggins.
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  - Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 8:09pm #867188
    
    Ghost01
    Participant
    That’s fine and true, but its also totally irrelavent.
    You could argue that conference play is tougher, but realistically Duke has played mostly bad teams (including losing to bad teams) and finally got a nice W against Pitt the other night. KU has played quite a few ranked teams, but Wiggins best and most efficient game was vs mid-major level TCU at home.
    If you want to argue potential, argue potential. But as far as production goes, those who think Wiggins has been better are just wrong. The eye test itself tells you he gets a ton of those aformentioned buckets on easy shots, but the actual stats tell the same tale:
    Parker’s PER is 27.6 and Wiggins’ is 20.7. If you aren’t familar with PER, in comparison to the NBA a PER in the mid 27s is top 5 caliber, a PER around 20 is in the Bosh-Millsap-Lowry range.
    What is probably the most shocking thing advanced stats tell you, is that Wiggins actually is better at the shooting statistics like TS% and such, but Parker is better in all of the all around stats, including even DEFENSIVE ratings. Now I don’t think Parker is a better defender than Wiggins, but I also think Wiggins shooting efficiency is helped by the fact he gets a ton of uncontested shots, and he doesn’t take the tough shots Parker takes. Parker does take bad shots. But the best player on a team tends to take bad shots from time to time. This isn’t Melo/Jr Smith level chucking. He has been efficient overall which is what truly matters.
    
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- Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 7:35pm #867182
  
  TYO
  Participant
  Whenever ISU made a run Wiggins was there to make a play. KU’s system won’t have the wing dribbling a lot. And I saw this stat on twitter.
  "Since ACC play, Jabari Parker has scored 117 points on 105 shots. In Big 12 play Andrew Wiggins has scored 124 points on 79 shots."
  Wiggins is scoring while actually being efficient.
  
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 7:18pm #867074

Aran Smith
Keymaster
Jayhawks2011- You make a solid point, but still, none of the players you mentioned were selected in the top 3-5 to be a #2 option. I remember liking Steph Curry more than Tyreke Evans and one of the reasons was the topic at hand. Being better as a facilitator/team player with others. But that was in the middle lotto in a weaker draft. Curry happened to develop into a franchise player, but he would be an ideal #2 option, better than say Russell Westbrook for instance…. In terms of drafting, I think it becomes much more of a consideration when you are discussing players with talent level that is questionable to be a #1 option. At the top of a quality draft you need to find your franchise guy. If he ultimately becomes an ideal 2nd option later in his career, so be it.
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 7:18pm #867178

Aran Smith
Keymaster
Jayhawks2011- You make a solid point, but still, none of the players you mentioned were selected in the top 3-5 to be a #2 option. I remember liking Steph Curry more than Tyreke Evans and one of the reasons was the topic at hand. Being better as a facilitator/team player with others. But that was in the middle lotto in a weaker draft. Curry happened to develop into a franchise player, but he would be an ideal #2 option, better than say Russell Westbrook for instance…. In terms of drafting, I think it becomes much more of a consideration when you are discussing players with talent level that is questionable to be a #1 option. At the top of a quality draft you need to find your franchise guy. If he ultimately becomes an ideal 2nd option later in his career, so be it.
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 8:28pm #867090

highflyer0
Participant
People keep making the argument that defense is what separates Lebron from Carmelo. Well, Wiggins is not Lebron and he will never be Lebron. James is practically equal to Melo in terms of scoring ability anyway. If Jabari can become the scorer that Carmelo is, he is deserving of the number 1 pick. Anthony is bashed a lot but the truth is I think he could be a number one option on a championship team if he had the right pieces around him. Yes, he is ball dominant but wasn’t Kobe? I’m not saying that Parker will ever average 27 per game like Melo. I’m just saying that if you’re a GM and you see Parker as a top 5 scorer, you choose him over the guy who you think will be a solid scorer and a great defender in Wiggins. The Warriors signed Andre Iguadola and it is working out great, but it is clear that the defensively challenged Curry is by far the most important player on the team. Having said that, I think I would still choose Wiggins over Parker because I’m not totally sold on Parker becoming Melo-esque. However, if he proves me wrong and steps up big in the tournament, I am more than willing to flipflop and join the Jabari bandwagon.

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- Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 5:52am #867163
  
  jwall1
  Participant
  Carmelo Anthony is a better scorer than Lebron, flat out. Lebron, however, is better than Carmelo at just about everything else. Its funny, Wiggins has 2 strong games and everyone who was left the Wiggins train suddenly hopped back on. His handles are lackluster, his iso game is almost non existent, and his attitude is questionable. There is no doubt about it that Jabari Parker is a more well rounded player and a better scorer than Wiggins. Everyone raves about Wiggins’ defense, but for some reason I do not see the same lockdown defender that alot of people rave about on here. His weaknesses will be exploited more-so in the NBA, and honestly I can only see him being able to score off the ball and in transition. Most of the buckets Wiggins gets now are uncontested, transition buckets and in the NBA he will not be able to score much like this. Parker may be struggling a bit now, but I do not see how anyone could pass up on him for an overblown, raw athlete in Wiggins. I feel the only reason he is compared to Paul George is because he is athletic and people think he will come into the league raw and become a superstar in his 3rd season, but the reality is what George did was rare, and requires a special work ethic/attitude and a good situation.
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  - Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 6:18am #867177
    
    TYO
    Participant
    Maybe you’ve got Andrew Wiggins mixed up with someone else. The Big 4 freshman in Jabari, Randle, Gordon & Wiggins have all shown good attitudes & appear to be very coachable.
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    - Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 4:30pm #867343
      
      jwall1
      Participant
      Im not talking attitude like Demarcus Cousins, I am talking about his lack of aggressiveness and "drifting"
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    - Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 4:30pm #867448
      
      jwall1
      Participant
      Im not talking attitude like Demarcus Cousins, I am talking about his lack of aggressiveness and "drifting"
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  - Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 6:18am #867282
    
    TYO
    Participant
    Maybe you’ve got Andrew Wiggins mixed up with someone else. The Big 4 freshman in Jabari, Randle, Gordon & Wiggins have all shown good attitudes & appear to be very coachable.
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- Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 5:52am #867268
  
  jwall1
  Participant
  Carmelo Anthony is a better scorer than Lebron, flat out. Lebron, however, is better than Carmelo at just about everything else. Its funny, Wiggins has 2 strong games and everyone who was left the Wiggins train suddenly hopped back on. His handles are lackluster, his iso game is almost non existent, and his attitude is questionable. There is no doubt about it that Jabari Parker is a more well rounded player and a better scorer than Wiggins. Everyone raves about Wiggins’ defense, but for some reason I do not see the same lockdown defender that alot of people rave about on here. His weaknesses will be exploited more-so in the NBA, and honestly I can only see him being able to score off the ball and in transition. Most of the buckets Wiggins gets now are uncontested, transition buckets and in the NBA he will not be able to score much like this. Parker may be struggling a bit now, but I do not see how anyone could pass up on him for an overblown, raw athlete in Wiggins. I feel the only reason he is compared to Paul George is because he is athletic and people think he will come into the league raw and become a superstar in his 3rd season, but the reality is what George did was rare, and requires a special work ethic/attitude and a good situation.
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 8:28pm #867194

highflyer0
Participant
People keep making the argument that defense is what separates Lebron from Carmelo. Well, Wiggins is not Lebron and he will never be Lebron. James is practically equal to Melo in terms of scoring ability anyway. If Jabari can become the scorer that Carmelo is, he is deserving of the number 1 pick. Anthony is bashed a lot but the truth is I think he could be a number one option on a championship team if he had the right pieces around him. Yes, he is ball dominant but wasn’t Kobe? I’m not saying that Parker will ever average 27 per game like Melo. I’m just saying that if you’re a GM and you see Parker as a top 5 scorer, you choose him over the guy who you think will be a solid scorer and a great defender in Wiggins. The Warriors signed Andre Iguadola and it is working out great, but it is clear that the defensively challenged Curry is by far the most important player on the team. Having said that, I think I would still choose Wiggins over Parker because I’m not totally sold on Parker becoming Melo-esque. However, if he proves me wrong and steps up big in the tournament, I am more than willing to flipflop and join the Jabari bandwagon.

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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 9:23pm #867100

moochiee
Participant
I hate to be the guy to say it, but I’m still not totally seeing it with Wiggins. Sure his stats are looking nice the past couple of games, but watching these games he still hasn’t done anything to "wow" me. I don’t see the hyper athlete that his was billed as coming into college. I certainly don’t think his athleticism is on another level than most of the good athletes in the nba. He gets most of his points on jump shots, which has definitely improved over the course of the season, but is still very shaky. Most of all, he just seems so unsmooth. His moves are so herky jerky, and his handle is really sloppy. Seems limited to making moves in a straight line a lot of the time. Obviously these are areas that he can improve on, but you hear him being compared to people like Paul George and T-Mac, and while those guys were also works in progress entering the NBA, the one thing you could always say about them was that they were smooth in the way they operated on the court. I can’t say the same things about Wiggins. I like him, but these last fews games still aren’t making me fall in love with his game.
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Posted on: Thu, 01/30/2014 - 9:23pm #867204

moochiee
Participant
I hate to be the guy to say it, but I’m still not totally seeing it with Wiggins. Sure his stats are looking nice the past couple of games, but watching these games he still hasn’t done anything to "wow" me. I don’t see the hyper athlete that his was billed as coming into college. I certainly don’t think his athleticism is on another level than most of the good athletes in the nba. He gets most of his points on jump shots, which has definitely improved over the course of the season, but is still very shaky. Most of all, he just seems so unsmooth. His moves are so herky jerky, and his handle is really sloppy. Seems limited to making moves in a straight line a lot of the time. Obviously these are areas that he can improve on, but you hear him being compared to people like Paul George and T-Mac, and while those guys were also works in progress entering the NBA, the one thing you could always say about them was that they were smooth in the way they operated on the court. I can’t say the same things about Wiggins. I like him, but these last fews games still aren’t making me fall in love with his game.
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Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 4:57am #867135

Ebown5
Participant
I think that saying that Wiggins can’t handle the ball is unfair. A more accurate statement would be that he isn’t handling the ball confidently right now. I think from previous highlight videos it is clear that he CAN handle the ball well when he is feeling confident. By the end of his highschool career he felt like he could dominate at anytime.
He is starting to get more agressive and I think that is coming from him starting to feel more comfortable. He doesn’t have the Iverson kind of mentality where he feels like he is better than everyone else no matter who he is playing. He is slow to adapt to new situations, but his abilities are all there.
He is just very undeveloped compared to a Jabari Parker. People develop and different paces. So evaluating his current game at 18 is not to say that he won’t be a lot better at 22.
It is clear to me that he can be a plus defender and a very good shooter. If he is able to make open jumpshots consistently it will open up the interior for him to use his explosiveness to get to the rim. He doesn’t need to be a guy that is constantly creating something from nothing. If he gets drafted by the Sixers he will be playing with a better point guard than he has ever played with, and the whole system will be geared around getting him chances.
The more success that he has in this regard, the more confident and agressive he will become. He will probably never be a 30 pt scorer on average, but that doesnt mean that he won’t be a top ten scorer in the NBA someday.
I think he can be Paul George some day. Nobody can be projected to be a Kevin Durant.

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Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 4:57am #867240

Ebown5
Participant
I think that saying that Wiggins can’t handle the ball is unfair. A more accurate statement would be that he isn’t handling the ball confidently right now. I think from previous highlight videos it is clear that he CAN handle the ball well when he is feeling confident. By the end of his highschool career he felt like he could dominate at anytime.
He is starting to get more agressive and I think that is coming from him starting to feel more comfortable. He doesn’t have the Iverson kind of mentality where he feels like he is better than everyone else no matter who he is playing. He is slow to adapt to new situations, but his abilities are all there.
He is just very undeveloped compared to a Jabari Parker. People develop and different paces. So evaluating his current game at 18 is not to say that he won’t be a lot better at 22.
It is clear to me that he can be a plus defender and a very good shooter. If he is able to make open jumpshots consistently it will open up the interior for him to use his explosiveness to get to the rim. He doesn’t need to be a guy that is constantly creating something from nothing. If he gets drafted by the Sixers he will be playing with a better point guard than he has ever played with, and the whole system will be geared around getting him chances.
The more success that he has in this regard, the more confident and agressive he will become. He will probably never be a 30 pt scorer on average, but that doesnt mean that he won’t be a top ten scorer in the NBA someday.
I think he can be Paul George some day. Nobody can be projected to be a Kevin Durant.

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Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 6:17am #867175

Sikma42
Participant
Let me preface this by saying that I have Wiggins currently at #2 on my board.
Wiggins is more talented than Paul George. Better athlete, better body control and more agile. But let’s not try to rush his development as a player. He is only 19 years old and is getting criticized for actually fitting into an offense with another AMAZING prospect. There is something to be said for a guy that can get you 29 while playing within an offense. But, college production is only a small piece of the puzzle. Wiggins just has too many tools that NBA players don’t have and that you just cannot teach. His first step is lightning quick, his lenght is tremondous, his lateral movement is top notch, and he has the ability to create spact against the top defenders. If Wiggins can handle adversity(show mental toughness) then he will develop into at least an all star. He seems to have a good head on his shoulders and is honestly too talented not to become an all star if he puts the work in. That first step combined with his length and ability to play in the open floor is just gonna be too much for people…im telling you that isnt even considering the fact he is actually a good shooter and will likely develop the other part of his games to compentant levels. I really can’t see anyone drafting Parker over him. I also think the PG comparison is modest imo. He has the talent to be a better player.

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Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 6:17am #867280

Sikma42
Participant
Let me preface this by saying that I have Wiggins currently at #2 on my board.
Wiggins is more talented than Paul George. Better athlete, better body control and more agile. But let’s not try to rush his development as a player. He is only 19 years old and is getting criticized for actually fitting into an offense with another AMAZING prospect. There is something to be said for a guy that can get you 29 while playing within an offense. But, college production is only a small piece of the puzzle. Wiggins just has too many tools that NBA players don’t have and that you just cannot teach. His first step is lightning quick, his lenght is tremondous, his lateral movement is top notch, and he has the ability to create spact against the top defenders. If Wiggins can handle adversity(show mental toughness) then he will develop into at least an all star. He seems to have a good head on his shoulders and is honestly too talented not to become an all star if he puts the work in. That first step combined with his length and ability to play in the open floor is just gonna be too much for people…im telling you that isnt even considering the fact he is actually a good shooter and will likely develop the other part of his games to compentant levels. I really can’t see anyone drafting Parker over him. I also think the PG comparison is modest imo. He has the talent to be a better player.

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Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 9:12am #867329
Rip255
I like some of the points that have come up in this debate, and I feel like there are merits to both arguments for Wiggins and Parker and there is no definitive answer because each team is in a different position due to factors outside of their current roster.
For example, Milwaukee can’t attract top free agents, therefore always having Wiggins as a "second option" would make no sense. The Lakers on the other hand might be able to attract their franchise-level playmaker via other means and Wiggins would be more valuable as a second-fiddle than Parker might as a second alpha-dog.
Of the teams in the lottery that might expect to get a top picks, I would predict they take the following if given the choice of Parker or Wiggins
- Milwaukee – Parker
- Toronto – Wiggins (certain)
- Utah – Parker (certain)
- Lakers – Wiggins
- Philly – Parker
- Orlando – Parker
- Boston – Not Sure
- Sacramento – Parker
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Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 9:12am #867223
Rip255
I like some of the points that have come up in this debate, and I feel like there are merits to both arguments for Wiggins and Parker and there is no definitive answer because each team is in a different position due to factors outside of their current roster.
For example, Milwaukee can’t attract top free agents, therefore always having Wiggins as a "second option" would make no sense. The Lakers on the other hand might be able to attract their franchise-level playmaker via other means and Wiggins would be more valuable as a second-fiddle than Parker might as a second alpha-dog.
Of the teams in the lottery that might expect to get a top picks, I would predict they take the following if given the choice of Parker or Wiggins
- Milwaukee – Parker
- Toronto – Wiggins (certain)
- Utah – Parker (certain)
- Lakers – Wiggins
- Philly – Parker
- Orlando – Parker
- Boston – Not Sure
- Sacramento – Parker
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- Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:45am #867380
  
  hubhub
  Participant
  In my opinion Sixers would take Wiggins over Parker and even Embiid. The have Noel at 5 so drafting Embiid doesnt have much sense. Sixers cant make the playoffs next year because if they do their pick goes to Miami and I’m sure that they dont want that. That indicates that they wont take Parker because he’s more of a finished player than Wiggins. The next thing, maybe even more important is that Brett Brown wants to run and Wiggins with his athlecism fits better to that style.
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- Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 11:45am #867275
  
  hubhub
  Participant
  In my opinion Sixers would take Wiggins over Parker and even Embiid. The have Noel at 5 so drafting Embiid doesnt have much sense. Sixers cant make the playoffs next year because if they do their pick goes to Miami and I’m sure that they dont want that. That indicates that they wont take Parker because he’s more of a finished player than Wiggins. The next thing, maybe even more important is that Brett Brown wants to run and Wiggins with his athlecism fits better to that style.
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Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 2:16pm #867420

VintageKobe
Participant
Honestly anyone still nitpicking on Wiggins is a hater. There is no such thing as a perfect prospect. He will develop. People still hating on wiggins just don’t know college basketball. What he’s doing in Bill Selfs offense is great. Him and Embiid and maybe Exum are the only true franchise changers in this draft. To be a true franchise player you have to dominate on defense and offense. Parker will never be a dominate defender. He can be a great scorer but he just doesn’t have the tools to be a great defender. Wiggins had shown the clear potential to be a top 5 defensive player while also being a top 5 offensive player.. And has a huge Paul George fan , faience his days a Fresno st, I’ll tell you right now Wiggins definitely has the potential to being a better player than him. Wiggins is much better than Paul was at this same age. Much better.
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Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 2:16pm #867315

VintageKobe
Participant
Honestly anyone still nitpicking on Wiggins is a hater. There is no such thing as a perfect prospect. He will develop. People still hating on wiggins just don’t know college basketball. What he’s doing in Bill Selfs offense is great. Him and Embiid and maybe Exum are the only true franchise changers in this draft. To be a true franchise player you have to dominate on defense and offense. Parker will never be a dominate defender. He can be a great scorer but he just doesn’t have the tools to be a great defender. Wiggins had shown the clear potential to be a top 5 defensive player while also being a top 5 offensive player.. And has a huge Paul George fan , faience his days a Fresno st, I’ll tell you right now Wiggins definitely has the potential to being a better player than him. Wiggins is much better than Paul was at this same age. Much better.
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- Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 4:45pm #867351
  
  jwall1
  Participant
  Assuming that a player will never be a dominate defender is pretty silly. All of this talk of athleticism and ceiling is so overblown. So what if Parker and Smart aren’t freaks of nature. Look at Tony Allen, is he a freak of an athlete? No, hes not, but he is the best defensive 2 guard in the league and arguably one of the best defenders in the league. You really lost me when you said only Embiid, Wiggins, and Exum were the only franchise changers. You are clearly undermining the talent and ability of Smart, Parker, and Randle. All 3 of those guys are dominating college basketball just as much or more than Wiggins and Embiid. And as far as Exum, I bet half of the people on here have never even seen him play….
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- Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 4:45pm #867456
  
  jwall1
  Participant
  Assuming that a player will never be a dominate defender is pretty silly. All of this talk of athleticism and ceiling is so overblown. So what if Parker and Smart aren’t freaks of nature. Look at Tony Allen, is he a freak of an athlete? No, hes not, but he is the best defensive 2 guard in the league and arguably one of the best defenders in the league. You really lost me when you said only Embiid, Wiggins, and Exum were the only franchise changers. You are clearly undermining the talent and ability of Smart, Parker, and Randle. All 3 of those guys are dominating college basketball just as much or more than Wiggins and Embiid. And as far as Exum, I bet half of the people on here have never even seen him play….
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Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 2:55pm #867428

VintageKobe
Participant
Sorry for the misspellings in my last post. My fault. Rushing on my cell phone
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Posted on: Fri, 01/31/2014 - 2:55pm #867322

VintageKobe
Participant
Sorry for the misspellings in my last post. My fault. Rushing on my cell phone
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