most athletic point guard

This is basically it:

Palmer breaks down John Wall, Derrick Rose and Westbrook’s athleticism into five categories (leaping ability, speed, quickness, strength, balance) and then grades each player in each category, then totals them at the end to declare the ‘most athletic’ point in the league.

Leaping – Rose 9.5; Russ 10; Wall 9.5

Speed – Rose 9.5; Russ 9; Wall 10

Quickness – Rose 10; Russ 9.5; Wall 9

Strength – Rose 10; Russ 9; Wall 8.5

Balance – Rose 9.5; Russ 9; Wall 7

Total – Rose 48.5; Russ 46.5; Wall 44

Wall lacks balance? Not sure if I agree with that, he’s a bit like Russ in that he plays out of control, but he has some amazing body control in the air and on the ground. Also, Wall should probably be a 9.5 at least for quickness. I’d say Rose and Russ are equal in strength too.

I think when it’s all said and done, John Wall will be the best of the three because he has the best vision and basketball intangibles of the three. He sees open people and has a better natural understanding of the game than the other two…not by much though, as they’re all terrific players!

I think Wall has the potential to be the best of the three, but Rose will be when it’s all said and done. Rose knows how to win basketball games, Wall knows how to dominate them. There’s a difference.

 Yeah I have Rose over Wall as well. Rose is a winner, Wall has alot of style and flash but I just don’t think he is quite the winner Rose has proven to be. I could be wrong, but Wall’s style of play doesn’t seem as likely to get him wins like Rose’s has. That’s not a slight to Wall, who I think will develop into an All-Star PG and franchise player (he’s a franchise player now probably), but I simply think Rose will be the better PG. Wall has a number of things to work on, but for him to be as good as he is for as raw as he is, it shows that he will be a very good player for a long time.

 One being a winner doesn’t have anything to do with their athleticism. I think Rose is probably SLIGHTLY more athletic, but it’s not much. Not to mention Wall has the better size by FAR. I’ll take Rose now because he has proven to get wins, but IMO, I’ll take Wall in 3-5 years. I prefer my point guard to be able to consitently make plays for others instead of just score. Had Rose been able to do this, Chicago would have beaten Miami when they locked in on Rose’s ability to score. I remember countles times this happened and Rose tried to make a play for others but simply couldn’t due to the fact he isn’t the greatest playmaker for others and turned the ball over. 

Rose is a great player, but let’s not act as if it’s simply him who is a winner. He did in fact have Tom Thibbedau as a coach, and some terrific defenders around him. He is one hell of a clutch player though I will say. 

Give me Wall.  The mere fact that we are talking about him amongst Rose after only his rookie campaign partly explains why. 

My main reasoning I think I’ll take Wall is b/c of his defense.  After watching him in the tourney, his clutch D play, I thought that was gonna be what sets him apart from Rose eventually.  

If I were to take Rose though, the main reason for that would be I think he is proving he has the "Clutch" gene offensively and that trait seperates the greats from the GOATs.  Wall has the potential to show off that gene, I saw a bit of it in the tourney and def. saw defensive clutchness, but if Wall shows me offensive clutch ability then that is gonna seperate him from Rose IMO.

 im sorry. i think you guys have gone crazy. im not even explaining why wall and rose shouldnt be put in the same senence. all im going to say is rose will always be better at everything then wall.

Not on defense and as an assist guy Rose isn’t better.

Russell Westbrook goes from a dribble-to-the-rim quicker than any player i’ve ever seen. He’s a blur.

 Here’s the artcile:

Here’s the article:

What do the Chicago Bulls, Oklahoma City Thunder and Washington Wizards have in common? They all boast athletic, scoring point guards. Indeed, Derrick Rose, Russell Westbrook and John Wall are three of the most compelling athletes ever at the point guard position. All three were born within 23 months of each other, making this a golden age of athletic point guards.

With an MVP award on his résumé, Rose is the most accomplished of the three, but Westbrook and Wall’s athletic ability leaves the door open for them to one day match Rose’s honor. Much of their success and productivity hinges on their physical ability. But which one is the best athlete? On a scale of 1-10, with 10 being the best, here’s how I rated them.
Leaping ability

The ability to glide through the air for the spectacular play is the skill most people readily identify with athleticism. Rose is a power leaper who explodes off the floor with velocity. He might have the highest vertical leap, but he’s also the most one-dimensional leaper of the three, preferring to finish at the rim after taking off from two legs. While it makes for great highlights, it can somewhat hinder his ability around the basket — particularly when driving down the lane — because it allows a helping big man an extra half second to recover. Evidence: Rose led the NBA in shots blocked last season.

Westbrook is as close to a perfect leaper as there is. He owns a high vertical leap, the ability to take off from far out and his versatility in jumping effectively off of one foot or two make him the complete package. Westbrook was third in the league among guards in dunks (52) and had almost as many as Rose and Wall combined (58).
Russell Westbrook
Glenn James/NBAE/Getty ImagesRussell Westbrook could use some more muscle to ward off physical defenders.

The Thunder point guard also has the unique ability to create a late burst with his last two steps — after he picks up his dribble — allowing him to essentially accelerate in the air, rendering most help defense useless. Westbrook’s long arms also allow him to time follow-up dunks while taking off from outside the charge circle.

Wall is at his best exploding off his vertical to catch alley-oops, which he can finish with authority. But his hang time and elevation don’t quite match up to Westbrook’s.

Rose 9.5, Westbrook 10, Wall 9.5

Speed

When it comes to speed, we’re talking end-to-end speed, arguably a point guard’s most useful physical tool. From one foul line to the other, there is no faster player in the game than Wall. His speed is such that he can create a fast break out of almost any turnover, loose ball or rebound. While most players begin to decelerate and look for an open wing or trailer once crossing half court, Wall continues to accelerate until the defense can no longer keep up.

Often this will take Wall below the foul line, putting him in a position to shoot. It can also take him too far under the rim, which can sometimes lead to low-percentage shot attempts. But for the most part it works; Wall was second in the league with 5.6 fast-break points per game last year.

Rose is not quite as speedy as Wall but in many ways uses his speed more effectively. The edge Rose has over Wall is that he operates with more control. There’s a fine line between going full tilt and turning over the ball. In fact, if Wall slowed down, he would certainly trim his average of 3.8 turnovers per game.

Westbrook likes to push but not with the determination and zeal of Rose or Wall. Often he brings the ball upcourt at a measured trot with his body upright, then goes into attack mode when he sees an opening. The difference: Rose and Wall’s quickness creates openings while Westbrook just exploits them.

Rose 9.5, Westbrook 9, Wall 10

Quickness

Top-flight point guards have to consistently beat their man off the dribble whether they are of the pass-first variety or have a scorer’s mentality. The kind of quickness that matters most is 3-point line-to-basket quickness.

Rose has the game’s best first step regardless of position. Rose sets up much of his penetration with left-to-right crossovers or simple head fakes to get the defender to lean before exploding in the opposite direction. Much like a running back who plants his foot and explodes upfield, Rose can quickly turn the corner and exploit most holes in defenses. But his true skill is being able to change directions several times from the 3-point line to the rim without sacrificing speed, which leaves help defenders flat-footed. Rose is also good at coming down from speed, which can be as tricky for defenders to handle as his initial burst.

Westbrook’s deceptive quickness is better suited for the half-court game as he likes to use low dribbles to split double-teams and has a second step just as quick as his first, allowing him to get up to speed in tight spaces. In many ways — thanks to long arms and excellent floor vision — Westbrook is just as dangerous as Rose. But Rose’s quickness is a cut above.

Wall has a nice variety of setup moves to initiate his ample quickness but simply doesn’t put defenders on notice the way his counterparts do. For all Wall’s quickness he averages only 1.9 points at the rim in the half-court set. Too often Wall settles for an outside shot, which decreases the number of times he can use his quickness. Either way Wall takes a backseat to Rose and Westbrook in this category.

Rose 10, Westbrook 9.5, Wall 9

Strength

Thanks to a powerful build and tree trunk-like legs, Rose makes this the most one-sided category. Rose’s strength puts nearly everyone he faces at a disadvantage. When he turns the corner with his dribble, defenders are forced to be as physical as possible to prevent him from getting to the hole, which often results in overzealous hacking that sends him to the line. Rose ranks 11th in free throw attempts with 6.85 attempts per game.

In the air he invites contact, which ironically almost seems to stabilize him as he double-clutches his way to yet another reverse layup.

Westbrook is no slouch in this category but doesn’t exactly turn heads. He won’t bully you like Deron Williams but has shown resiliency in taking contact at the rim. Rarely do hard fouls discourage him. Putting on five to 10 more pounds of muscle would make Westbrook near impervious to midair assaults from opposing guards.
Derick Rose, John Wall
Geoff Burke/US PresswireJohn Wall is young, but in time he could rise to Rose’s level.

Wall’s strength is one of the more underrated aspects of his game. At 6-foot-4 and blessed with excellent size — broad shoulders and long arms — Wall’s strength will be an even bigger asset when he develops a post game and begins to take smaller guards on the block. But Wall’s speed and quickness is so effective that he rarely resorts to strength as a means of gaining an advantage.

Rose 10, Westbrook 9, Wall 8.5
Balance

Balance is one of the most overlooked athletic attributes yet easily one of the most important. It’s the building block all athletic fundamentals are built upon. Excellent balance allows players to operate at speed, quickly change direction and absorb contact while still getting off a shot. Rose’s excellent balance and agility allow him to tie together each of his abilities seamlessly, which results in near athletic perfection when operating on the floor. That balance is the source of his ability to stop and start so suddenly and shift to a higher gear on his penetration.

Westbrook also shines in this category, particularly in the air, as he effectively gets off shots when bumped while high above ground. Good thing, since Westbrook often takes off from one foot, making him easier to knock off balance. His gaudy 10.2 points in the paint per game ranks 14th overall ahead of both Rose and Wall.

This category is where Wall falls way short. A lack of balance is Wall’s biggest weakness. Ironically, his brilliant speed might contribute to his wobbly ways, as he can sometimes move too fast for his own good and find himself out of control. Also his center of gravity at speed is so low that the faster he goes he tends to lean forward, causing him to lose his balance, especially if he’s bumped.

Rose 9.5, Westbrook 9, Wall 7

Final score: Rose 48.5, Westbrook 46.5, Wall 44

Even among the elite athletes in the game Derrick Rose stands out as the best. From a physical standpoint the fourth-year point guard has almost no weakness. He’s the fastest, strongest and most fluid NBA player of his generation at his position.

While not quite on Rose’s level, Westbrook is electrifying in his own right and has one of the most complete athletic arsenals at any position. Westbrook lacks Rose’s body control and strength — which is why he finishes second — but turns his speed and leaping ability into tangible stats in a way Rose doesn’t.

Westbrook edges Rose in dunks, fast-break points, free throw attempts and points in the paint — four key categories that point to great athleticism for small guards.

Wall still possesses game-breaking ability and is the youngest of the three. With a better understanding of how to use his immense tools he could wind up on the level of Rose and Westbrook. But for now Rose stands alone as the most athletic guard in the NBA.

@iguapops420

“I prefer my point guard to be able to consitently make plays for others instead of just score. Had Rose been able to do this, Chicago would have beaten Miami when they locked in on Rose’s ability to score.”

That’s ridiculous. There was no way Chicago was going to beat Miami and it had nothing to do with Rose making plays for others. Chicago simply didn’t have enough playmakers and THAT was why Miami was able to defend him the way they did. He averaged seven assists in that series. He just didn’t get enough offensive support. I mean, just look at the statistics of his teammates.

Nate Robinson

 Exactly. It’s funny that Wall had more assists than Rose, but also more turnovers and more shot WAY worse from the floor. Rose is a HUGE reason why Chicago won those games, and I honestly think that Wall is probably a worse playmaker for others in all honesty. Just because Wall has more assists doesn’t mean he’s a better playmaker, especially considering his TO rate. You would think a pure PG would be able to have more of an impact on his team winning. Assists don’t mean your a better playmaker. Rose is a good PG, he just has NO other shot creators and has to take the shots he does. That’s a redundant argument, but you guys will see. I think Wall gets a large number of assists due to his aggressiveness and not due to this great playmaking ability for others, he’s probably neck and neck as good a playmaker for others as Rose

Here’s how I would’ve rated the three:

Leaping – Russ 10; Rose 9.5; Wall 9.0

Gave Russ the edge over Rose as a leaper due to his ability to jump off of one foot. I don’t think Wall is the explosive/powerful leaper that Rose is though.

Speed – Wall 10; Rose 9.5; Russ 9

Wall’s best attribute is his speed. His stride is bigger than Rose’s.

Quickness – Rose 10; Russ 9.5; Wall 9

Russ is right there, but Rose explodes from a standstill position. While Wall is quick, I always thought his quickness from a standstill position was slower than his end to end speed.

Strength – Rose 10; Russ 9; Wall 8.5

Clearly Rose. Russ plays aggressive, but doesn’t seem to possess the natural top to bottom strength that Rose does. Wall will get there in due time once his frame fills out.

Balance – Rose 10; Russ 9; Wall 8

I gave Rose a 10. I think his balance is what makes him so special. He has amazing body control. Russ is a full notch below. And while Wall can improve his balance, he still very good there.

Total – Rose 49; Russ 46.5; Wall 44.5

IF I had to guess who’ll be better going long term, I’d go:

1. Rose
2. Wall
3. Westbrook

If we are talking most athletic point guard shouldn’t that be nate robinson.

Rose is the most athletic PG in the league

 Rose is the one who is most likely to cross you because of his quickness

Westbrook is the one who is most likely gonna dunk on you

Wall is the most dangerous to get on fast breaks because he is the fastest

 I mean we got alot of athletic PG’s but, I think when he finds out how to really play tha game. Eric Bledsoe will be in tha discussion…..

6’1 195 pounds(Strong as an ox built like a tank)

6’8 Wingspan

41 inch vertical

and reports outta kentcuky was that he was quicker and just as fast as wall.

But time will only tell.

Derrick Rose being ball dominate and only averaging 7 assists is piss poor for a All-Star PG… I’ve said this for years now, John Wall has a better overrall feel for the position than Russ or Rose…  Every Rookie has a bad TO ratio so what the hell does that have to do with it?  Wall as a rookie was more impressive as a PG than Rose was…  You can say whatever you want, but Rose went to a Playoff team NOT a rebuilding one…  I do give him credit because Boozer was no F’ing help in the Playoffs, but D. Rose is just a ball player (similar to A.I. that way) and gets it done… The jury is still out on Wall because he’s not on a team that will enable him to get to the Playoffs and that’s when we get to see how great he really is or not in the clutch…   When it’s all done if both maximize their potential Wall will be given the slight edge because he is the better PG…

 Yeah, JNixon, because CP3 had such an impact his rookie year also. And I disagree completely that Rose couldn’t have done more for his team being able to create for others. They simply played him with LBJ one on one and allowed a help defender to stick close because Rose isn’t creative enough, nor does he have the vision to create for OTHERS consistently. BTW, he may have averaged 7 assists for that series, but that’s actually less than his season avg, and not that gret considering the amount of time he was handling the ball for hi team. Face it, Rose simply is a scoring point guard. Not a bad thing to have as it clearly wins games, but IMO, Wall just has more of true pg mentality. 

BTW, Rose for all his athleticism and length, has some pretty poor defense. Give me the pg who will actually D his man up, has a nack for a pass first mentality, and is quickly learning to score himself(not to mention 2.5 inches taller) over the below overage defender who looks for his shot first, and doesn’t have the greatest vision or creativity.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree.

@iguapops420

Who’s 2.5 inches taller than Rose? Rose is 6′ 1.5" without shoes, Russ is 6′ 2.5" without shoes and Wall is 6′ 2.75" without shoes…

I respect you as a poster, but I don’t think you know what you’re talking about sometimes. I almost think you write things just to write them. Other than getting into the passing lanes, Wall’s defense isn’t anything to talk about at this point. He’s NOT a better defender than Rose. Rose led all point guards in least amount of PPG giving up to who he was defending. And he also led all point guards in blocks. Rose isn’t a great defender, but the "below average defender" talk is getting old.

And what you’re saying about Rose vs the Heat makes no sense… The fact he had no offensive support is why they were able to defend him that way. Who was he going to pass to when his teammates weren’t making shots??? Miami simply closed out too quickly on the Bulls’ shooters and NOBODY could put the ball on the floor to create a shot. Just look at the shooting statistics of Korver, Bogans, Boozer, Watson, etc in that series.

I can agree with what some of Tuck wrote though. Wall has more potential than both Rose and Russ. I still just think Rose ends up being the better player though.

double post

double post

^^
i dont think that wall or westbrook would ever be able to lead a team offensively as rose did.. that being said, your completely right about that miami series, the rest of the bulls played like crap.. however i think the thing that really seperates these point guards is their peremeter defense, and really just defensive ability.. i feel like westbrook is the best defensively as of now, followed by wall, then rose in that order, but i know that rose has that tenacious work ethic. developing  new parts of his game over the offseason last yearwith the deep shooting.. i think that a good defensive game could happen this year..

 "Yeah, JNixon, because CP3 had such an impact his rookie year also. And I disagree completely that Rose couldn’t have done more for his team being able to create for others. They simply played him with LBJ one on one and allowed a help defender to stick close because Rose isn’t creative enough, nor does he have the vision to create for OTHERS consistently. BTW, he may have averaged 7 assists for that series, but that’s actually less than his season avg, and not that gret considering the amount of time he was handling the ball for hi team. Face it, Rose simply is a scoring point guard. Not a bad thing to have as it clearly wins games, but IMO, Wall just has more of true pg mentality.

BTW, Rose for all his athleticism and length, has some pretty poor defense. Give me the pg who will actually D his man up, has a nack for a pass first mentality, and is quickly learning to score himself(not to mention 2.5 inches taller) over the below overage defender who looks for his shot first, and doesn’t have the greatest vision or creativity."

As I’ve said before, Chris Paul not getting to the playoffs as a rookie does not mean he’s not a great PG. Or that he didn’t have a great rookie year. He’s the best PG in the NBA to me, and he was a very good PG immediately as a rookie. It’s just a HUGE testament that Derrick Rose got to the playoffs every single year he’s been in the NBA. Chris Paul didn’t average 4 turnovers a game as a rookie, he didn’t shoot 41% either. He showed that he was going to be an elite PG that rookie year, in some ways Wall did the same.

But Rose was the only player in that Heat series that was actually consistently good. Carlos Boozer is getting an 80 million dollar contract, and he was missing point-blank layups and open 15 footers that were literally spoonfed for him. But of course, you don’t want to remember that because there are no exact stats that show it. "All you see is Rose averaged 7 apg, which is lower than what he averaged for the season," not realizing that the ENTIRE team besides him can’t create for themselves, and when Rose did create for them they often missed the shots that he set up. If you are just going to read into stats, then fine. But just make sure you have some recollection of the series. Rose did his job. He’s not a 10 apg guy, he might never be, but that doesn’t mean he looks to score because he just wants to. Nobody else on the Bulls roster is a shot-creator, and Boozer, who is the closest thing to their 2nd best creator, played terrible. Throughout the playoffs. 

Rose isn’t even a bad defender. He’s not great, not great at all, but his D isn’t poor or below average. The Bulls were way too good a defensive team for me to believe their players play anything close to poor D. In the NBA your are going to allow points, especially in basic man-to-man. The Bulls play team D so if a guy is beat the guys around swarm the ball. Rose played his guy and more often than not if he was beat, which will happen no matter who you play, his team rotated for helpside D. I’m not buying that "Rose is a poor defender" talk. I feel like he did his job in Coach Thibodeaux’s defensive scheme.

 Perhaps poor isn’t the best choice of words, but for where he should be defensively, he is below par. As for him being 2.5 inches taller Indy, all reports over the summer are that he is a legit 6’5 and mightbe 6’6 and that was the reason he had the knee troubles last season. So my friend, I do in fact know the shit I’m talking about.

 Well JNixon, again, we’ll agree to disagree and wait to see how he progresses when he gets a second creator. But IMO, I don’t think he’s the type of guy who can play up to his top potential when he has a second creator as he’s best with the ball in his hands evidenced by him playing with Kirk and Ben.

 He was a rookie when he played with those guys, he played about as good as a rookie PG can play against a great  Boston squad can play as is. 37 points and 7 assists in his 1st ever playoff game? Against Rajon Rondo and the same vaunted team defensive scheme he now is apart of (Coach Thibodeaux was a Doc Rivers asst., for those who forgot), and he STILL dominated to that tune? As a rookie? Isn’t it ironic that he looked like a pure PG when he had Gordon, John Salmons when he was actually good, and Hinrich on the team? I’ve seen Rose play with scorers and look like a PG. It’s just been so long since he’s had shot creators around him that people tend to forget. NOBODY was saying Rose was a score-1st when he had Ben Gordon, Hinrich and an effective John Salmons. Im just saying.

 I did think he played more like a true pg then but he still didn’t have the greatest vision or creativity though.

 Rose was actually the best defensive PG last year. The numbers say that, and Wall was the worst defensive PG statistically, aisde from steals and blocks. Wall has all the tools to be a great defender but he isn’t up to snuff yet, even though I think the injuries really affected him. I actually think that Wall might be better off guards SGs in the future. He plays with a high cneter of gravity and struggled to keep up with the quick Pgs last year.

@ Wiz……Rose was far from the best defensive PG last year, I know first hand.  I live in Chicago and watch the majority of the Bulls games, he is an average defender.