HOF Candidates 1.0

I vote T-Mac in but he is another tough one because of his reduced prime.  In his prime however, his individual accomplishments crush VC but his playoff history is the worst.  I will post my Grant Hill soon if someone doesnt beat me to it.

I vote T-Mac in but he is another tough one because of his reduced prime.  In his prime however, his individual accomplishments crush VC but his playoff history is the worst.  I will post my Grant Hill soon if someone doesnt beat me to it.

Jamison crossed my mind but I didnt view him as on the fence.  Unless strong consideration is given to his college career he would never get in.  He is in a special class of guys who were great college players to have good NBA careers.  Had he won a championship with the Cavaliers that would have majorly helped his case.  Waymon Tisdale and Christian Laettner are two others who had a phenomenal college careers and good NBA careers. 

Jamison crossed my mind but I didnt view him as on the fence.  Unless strong consideration is given to his college career he would never get in.  He is in a special class of guys who were great college players to have good NBA careers.  Had he won a championship with the Cavaliers that would have majorly helped his case.  Waymon Tisdale and Christian Laettner are two others who had a phenomenal college careers and good NBA careers. 

Grant Hill:

What gets him in:

• 17.8ppg, 6.4rpg, 4.5apg
• Top 35 all time in NBA scoring and only needs about 2000 pts to crack top 25.
• 7-time All-Star. 5-time all NBA
• 3-time NBA Sportsmanship Award
• 1996 Olympic Gold Medalist
• 1995 Co-Rookie of the Year
• 1991 Bronze Medalist Pan-Am Games
• 2 NCAA National Titles
• ACC Player of the Year
• MVP calibur season (finishing 3 in votes behind Jordan and Malone) (I believe this was in his 2nd season)
• Late career rejuvenation and contributions to a winning team
• Current HOF Probability Ranking: 113

What keeps him out:

• shortened prime
• the fact that he was never considered the best player in the league at any point (but he was in the Jordan era)
• who he has to compete with on the ballots (careers and positions)

Extremely popular player.  Beat out Jordan in All-Star voting, proving his popularity.  Extremely likable by the media.

My Vote: IN

Grant Hill:

What gets him in:

• 17.8ppg, 6.4rpg, 4.5apg
• Top 35 all time in NBA scoring and only needs about 2000 pts to crack top 25.
• 7-time All-Star. 5-time all NBA
• 3-time NBA Sportsmanship Award
• 1996 Olympic Gold Medalist
• 1995 Co-Rookie of the Year
• 1991 Bronze Medalist Pan-Am Games
• 2 NCAA National Titles
• ACC Player of the Year
• MVP calibur season (finishing 3 in votes behind Jordan and Malone) (I believe this was in his 2nd season)
• Late career rejuvenation and contributions to a winning team
• Current HOF Probability Ranking: 113

What keeps him out:

• shortened prime
• the fact that he was never considered the best player in the league at any point (but he was in the Jordan era)
• who he has to compete with on the ballots (careers and positions)

Extremely popular player.  Beat out Jordan in All-Star voting, proving his popularity.  Extremely likable by the media.

My Vote: IN

this discussion is about players who deserve serious consideration and have amazing accomplishments….not about great players or all time greats.  if they were great we wouldnt have created this thread because their inductions would be a non-issue.  I think Carter, McGrady, and Hill all have good chances and Jamison’s chances will increase if his career continues to be solid and he can become a contributer on a contender.

next up….Shawn Marion…lol!

this discussion is about players who deserve serious consideration and have amazing accomplishments….not about great players or all time greats.  if they were great we wouldnt have created this thread because their inductions would be a non-issue.  I think Carter, McGrady, and Hill all have good chances and Jamison’s chances will increase if his career continues to be solid and he can become a contributer on a contender.

next up….Shawn Marion…lol!

Shawn Marion:

What gets him in:

• 16.8ppg, 9.3rpg, 1.9ast, 1.7stls, 1.9 blks (great numbers across the board)
• 4-time All-Star. 2-time all NBA
• NBA All-Rookie Team
• NBA Champion (2011)
• 2004 Olympic Bronze Medalist
• Late career contributions
• Current HOF Probability Ranking: 123

What keeps him out:

• no All-Defensive Team selection (not sure how that happened)
• played on one of the most disappointing US Olympic Teams ever
• played on teams with other HOF and was only 2nd-3rd option at best
• outside of 2011 championship, has never had stellar post-season
• simply overshadowed not only by the best players at his position but by his teammates

Not a hugely popular player, one who could be easily forgotten through the ages.  A role player and not a star by any means.  As a small foward, only Lebron and Melo have comparable all-around stats in this era.  Marion’s career is not over and should he contribute to another couple of titles or strong postseasons, he probably will get in.  At this point, although the championship helped him considerable, I still say he is on the outside looking in.

My Vote: OUT

Shawn Marion:

What gets him in:

• 16.8ppg, 9.3rpg, 1.9ast, 1.7stls, 1.9 blks (great numbers across the board)
• 4-time All-Star. 2-time all NBA
• NBA All-Rookie Team
• NBA Champion (2011)
• 2004 Olympic Bronze Medalist
• Late career contributions
• Current HOF Probability Ranking: 123

What keeps him out:

• no All-Defensive Team selection (not sure how that happened)
• played on one of the most disappointing US Olympic Teams ever
• played on teams with other HOF and was only 2nd-3rd option at best
• outside of 2011 championship, has never had stellar post-season
• simply overshadowed not only by the best players at his position but by his teammates

Not a hugely popular player, one who could be easily forgotten through the ages.  A role player and not a star by any means.  As a small foward, only Lebron and Melo have comparable all-around stats in this era.  Marion’s career is not over and should he contribute to another couple of titles or strong postseasons, he probably will get in.  At this point, although the championship helped him considerable, I still say he is on the outside looking in.

My Vote: OUT

The criteria for the Basketball HOF is more strict IMO then say a sport like Boxing.  Individual achievement is big but team success plays a major factor.  I would like to add some players who were extraordinary or exceptional but not great.   Maybe on another thread we can do Exceptional Players who were not Great.  My first on that list would be Robert Horry.

The criteria for the Basketball HOF is more strict IMO then say a sport like Boxing.  Individual achievement is big but team success plays a major factor.  I would like to add some players who were extraordinary or exceptional but not great.   Maybe on another thread we can do Exceptional Players who were not Great.  My first on that list would be Robert Horry.

Reggie is not on the fence IMO, I am sure he gets in, he just didnt get in on his first ballot.

Reggie is not on the fence IMO, I am sure he gets in, he just didnt get in on his first ballot.

Ben Wallace:

What gets him in:

• 4-time Defensive POY
• 6-time All-Defensive team
• 4-time All-Star
• 5-time All-NBA
• 2-time NBA Leader in Rebounds
• 1-time NBA Leader in Blocks
• NBA Champion 2004
• #37 NBA All Time in Rebounds
• perhaps the best player on his championship winning team
• Current HOF Probability Ranking: currently unlisted

What keeps him out:

• low scoring average and total
• horrible 41% for career from the line
• never averaged double figures in points

Notes: Its like beating a dead horse but as much as Big Ben was an asset on defense, he was a serious offensive liability.  He was not as impacting to the game as Rodman but he was a heck of a rebounder and defender.  He helped lead a Pistons team that was devoid of a superstar to a title.

My Vote: IN

Ben Wallace:

What gets him in:

• 4-time Defensive POY
• 6-time All-Defensive team
• 4-time All-Star
• 5-time All-NBA
• 2-time NBA Leader in Rebounds
• 1-time NBA Leader in Blocks
• NBA Champion 2004
• #37 NBA All Time in Rebounds
• perhaps the best player on his championship winning team
• Current HOF Probability Ranking: currently unlisted

What keeps him out:

• low scoring average and total
• horrible 41% for career from the line
• never averaged double figures in points

Notes: Its like beating a dead horse but as much as Big Ben was an asset on defense, he was a serious offensive liability.  He was not as impacting to the game as Rodman but he was a heck of a rebounder and defender.  He helped lead a Pistons team that was devoid of a superstar to a title.

My Vote: IN

I like the Arenas post.  Its just doubtful that he gets back to a similar level that he was on.  He is not very old, if he could have some real good consistency, maybe he turns it around….but like you said…not likely.

I like the Arenas post.  Its just doubtful that he gets back to a similar level that he was on.  He is not very old, if he could have some real good consistency, maybe he turns it around….but like you said…not likely.

thank you.  we are just discussing here.  I said that Marion is NOT as of right now.  we are just name-dropping here with people who are in the realm of possibility.  you cant shut the door an anybody.  also, I think the popular misconception is that EVERY single player that gets in the HOF has to be a GREAT player.  that is the perception we are trying to dispell here.

thank you.  we are just discussing here.  I said that Marion is NOT as of right now.  we are just name-dropping here with people who are in the realm of possibility.  you cant shut the door an anybody.  also, I think the popular misconception is that EVERY single player that gets in the HOF has to be a GREAT player.  that is the perception we are trying to dispell here.

excellent points, and maybe Big Ben doesnt get in, if he does it will be on the strength of those 5 years….but those 5 years were really strong and he was an integral part in that championship, either him or Billups was the best player on that team.

excellent points, and maybe Big Ben doesnt get in, if he does it will be on the strength of those 5 years….but those 5 years were really strong and he was an integral part in that championship, either him or Billups was the best player on that team.

Chauncey Billups:

What gets him in:

• 15.5ppg, 5.6ast, 2.9rpg
• 2-time All-Defensive team
• 5-time All-Star
• 3-time All-NBA
• NBA Champion (2004)
• NBA Finals MVP (2004)
• 5th All-Time 3pt FGs made
• 4th All-Time FT %
• 39th All-Time Assists
• NBA Sportsmanship Award (2009)
• NBA Citizenship Award (2008)
• perhaps the best player on his championship winning team
• still producing at a high level past his prime
• Led Colorado Buffaloes to 1st NCAA tourney win in over 30 years
• Current HOF Probability Ranking: 133

What keeps him out:

• never considered the best at his position
• not enough separation between himself and teammates as he almost always played with multiple All-Stars
• missed out on playing on 2008 Olympic Team

Notes: The one thing to me that stands out about Billups is, in his prime and even after, his presence or absence was always felt on his teams.  Look at the direction Detroit went after losing him…look at the success Denver had when gaining him.  His stats are not eye-popping but his contributions are unmistakable and for that reason, he has been more of the Fat Lever of his era.  Because he has played at such a consistent level and was a Finals MVP….a player with his popularity may be able to get in.  He was well liked by fans and teammates, which means years from now, he will probably be remembered well as "Mr Big Shot"

My Vote: IN

Chauncey Billups:

What gets him in:

• 15.5ppg, 5.6ast, 2.9rpg
• 2-time All-Defensive team
• 5-time All-Star
• 3-time All-NBA
• NBA Champion (2004)
• NBA Finals MVP (2004)
• 5th All-Time 3pt FGs made
• 4th All-Time FT %
• 39th All-Time Assists
• NBA Sportsmanship Award (2009)
• NBA Citizenship Award (2008)
• perhaps the best player on his championship winning team
• still producing at a high level past his prime
• Led Colorado Buffaloes to 1st NCAA tourney win in over 30 years
• Current HOF Probability Ranking: 133

What keeps him out:

• never considered the best at his position
• not enough separation between himself and teammates as he almost always played with multiple All-Stars
• missed out on playing on 2008 Olympic Team

Notes: The one thing to me that stands out about Billups is, in his prime and even after, his presence or absence was always felt on his teams.  Look at the direction Detroit went after losing him…look at the success Denver had when gaining him.  His stats are not eye-popping but his contributions are unmistakable and for that reason, he has been more of the Fat Lever of his era.  Because he has played at such a consistent level and was a Finals MVP….a player with his popularity may be able to get in.  He was well liked by fans and teammates, which means years from now, he will probably be remembered well as "Mr Big Shot"

My Vote: IN

I dont think Jamison will get in even with the 20k points, but it depends on how many more years he has as a quality contributor to a title team or contender.  If he goes over 20k and is a reliable 2nd or 3rd option….ehhh, I still dont know.  What really hurts him is, although his stats are good, he has never been considered an NBA elite, never cracking the top 10 in MVP voting.  He hasnt had much playoff success and he also racked up a lot of pts and rebounds while playing for bad teams.  He has never been a very popular/superstar level player either.  We dont think he will get in but we are just offering his career info as a probability….which at this stage of his career, is low.  He wouldve had a great chance had that Cavs team been able to win a couple of titles with him as the 2nd option.

I dont think Jamison will get in even with the 20k points, but it depends on how many more years he has as a quality contributor to a title team or contender.  If he goes over 20k and is a reliable 2nd or 3rd option….ehhh, I still dont know.  What really hurts him is, although his stats are good, he has never been considered an NBA elite, never cracking the top 10 in MVP voting.  He hasnt had much playoff success and he also racked up a lot of pts and rebounds while playing for bad teams.  He has never been a very popular/superstar level player either.  We dont think he will get in but we are just offering his career info as a probability….which at this stage of his career, is low.  He wouldve had a great chance had that Cavs team been able to win a couple of titles with him as the 2nd option.

that is important criteria…who that player has to beat out for a ballot.  Big Ben will be in a long line behind KG, Duncan, Mourning and Mutombo.  great point.

that is important criteria…who that player has to beat out for a ballot.  Big Ben will be in a long line behind KG, Duncan, Mourning and Mutombo.  great point.

in regards to Stockton, the probability chart is not saying who should get in but their probability to get in based on the formula which follows pattern of the HOF selection process.  Its not that bad of a predictor actually.  As read in the explanation of the probability chart, "Other than height, all of the predictors had positive coefficients."

The shorter a player is and the more his numbers stand out makes them stand out, but it can also work against them.  It is often stated that the best man under 6’1" is Iverson, and as reflected he has the highest probability out of anyone under that height.  Isiah and Cousy being above Iverson is appropriate.  Big Ben is not even on the list…at first I was like "what?" but after reading, I see why…for a player of his height, the probability is just not there because his numbers are not huge.  His scoring numbers are feeble, and he was not as good of a rebounder as Rodman, nor was he as good a rebounder or shot blocker as Mutombo.  All of them had low scoring output but like my man said above….Wallace’s prime was shorter than Rodman or Mutombo, therefore his probability should be lower.  This is why RUDEBOY’s point about Ben not getting in is an excellent one if you go by the chart and their prime years.  Basically what I am saying is, if Big Ben averaged 2 or 3 more ppg, he would likely get in with no problem.

in regards to Stockton, the probability chart is not saying who should get in but their probability to get in based on the formula which follows pattern of the HOF selection process.  Its not that bad of a predictor actually.  As read in the explanation of the probability chart, "Other than height, all of the predictors had positive coefficients."

The shorter a player is and the more his numbers stand out makes them stand out, but it can also work against them.  It is often stated that the best man under 6’1" is Iverson, and as reflected he has the highest probability out of anyone under that height.  Isiah and Cousy being above Iverson is appropriate.  Big Ben is not even on the list…at first I was like "what?" but after reading, I see why…for a player of his height, the probability is just not there because his numbers are not huge.  His scoring numbers are feeble, and he was not as good of a rebounder as Rodman, nor was he as good a rebounder or shot blocker as Mutombo.  All of them had low scoring output but like my man said above….Wallace’s prime was shorter than Rodman or Mutombo, therefore his probability should be lower.  This is why RUDEBOY’s point about Ben not getting in is an excellent one if you go by the chart and their prime years.  Basically what I am saying is, if Big Ben averaged 2 or 3 more ppg, he would likely get in with no problem.

yeah, I am a Jamison fan, he had a great college career and turned out to be a good NBA player, but as much as I want to make a case for him, I just cant.  He is not an HOFer and probably never will be.  What do you think about Grant Hill?

yeah, I am a Jamison fan, he had a great college career and turned out to be a good NBA player, but as much as I want to make a case for him, I just cant.  He is not an HOFer and probably never will be.  What do you think about Grant Hill?

I left a line in for Grant Hill that was from VC’s accomplishments about the top 35 scoring (I cut and pasted my template).  Grant has only scored just over 16,000 points for his career.

I left a line in for Grant Hill that was from VC’s accomplishments about the top 35 scoring (I cut and pasted my template).  Grant has only scored just over 16,000 points for his career.

Jamison aint gettin in…lets be clear…his chance was when Lebron was with the Cavs, if the Cavs couldve won a couple of championships with him getting his averages and being a #2 option, he couldve gotten good consideration.  Now, he would be lucky if he was to a) get on a contender b) be that team’s 2nd option c) play a high level and stay injury free d) win one or two championships.  he would need to do all of the above.  the foundation for HOF is there, as with the others listed here, he just hasnt set himself apart from the crowd.

Jamison aint gettin in…lets be clear…his chance was when Lebron was with the Cavs, if the Cavs couldve won a couple of championships with him getting his averages and being a #2 option, he couldve gotten good consideration.  Now, he would be lucky if he was to a) get on a contender b) be that team’s 2nd option c) play a high level and stay injury free d) win one or two championships.  he would need to do all of the above.  the foundation for HOF is there, as with the others listed here, he just hasnt set himself apart from the crowd.

after Vince Carter on the probability list….not including young players like James, Wade, Paul, etc…and active or recently retired players I dont believe are on the fence like Pierce, Allen, Payton, etc… comes CWeb.  Lets take a look.

Chris Webber:

What gets him in:

• 20ppg, 9.8rpg, 4.2ast, 1.5stls, 1.5blks
• 5-time All-Star
• 5-time All-NBA
• 1994 NBA Rookie of the Year
• NBA Rebound Champ (1999)
• #1 Overall Pick (1994)
• Legitimate MVP candidate
• Had his jersey retired by Sacramento
• where it will hurt Ben Wallace will be viewed as a Center, CWeb will be in as a foward
• Current HOF Probability Ranking: 80

What keeps him out:

• Injuries took a large chunk out of his minutes.
• played less than 65 games in five separate seasons
• although he had good playoff success, he fell short in getting to the finals
• soft label and choker label from college days may always stick to him, albeit unfair…as his team could get past O’Neal and the Lakers.

One of only 6 players to avg 20ppg, 10rpg, and 4.2 asts.  Webber was a difference maker as evident with his playoff runs with Golden State, Washington, and Sacramento.  All 3 of those teams had very few playoff appearances before or after Webber played for them.  Their rare appearances and success was during his tenure with them.  The key about Webber is, if you are going by the probability chart, he had a good 5 year run just as Big Ben.  Ben has the title, but CWeb’s numbers are much better and he was a legitimate MVP.  I voted Wallace in, and with that, I would have to put CWeb in.  I think CWeb’s probability is higher than Big Ben’s once again because Webber is one of the best PF’s to play, its just that he didnt play very much for a player who’s career spanned from 93′ to 08′

My Vote: IN

after Vince Carter on the probability list….not including young players like James, Wade, Paul, etc…and active or recently retired players I dont believe are on the fence like Pierce, Allen, Payton, etc… comes CWeb.  Lets take a look.

Chris Webber:

What gets him in:

• 20ppg, 9.8rpg, 4.2ast, 1.5stls, 1.5blks
• 5-time All-Star
• 5-time All-NBA
• 1994 NBA Rookie of the Year
• NBA Rebound Champ (1999)
• #1 Overall Pick (1994)
• Legitimate MVP candidate
• Had his jersey retired by Sacramento
• where it will hurt Ben Wallace will be viewed as a Center, CWeb will be in as a foward
• Current HOF Probability Ranking: 80

What keeps him out:

• Injuries took a large chunk out of his minutes.
• played less than 65 games in five separate seasons
• although he had good playoff success, he fell short in getting to the finals
• soft label and choker label from college days may always stick to him, albeit unfair…as his team could get past O’Neal and the Lakers.

One of only 6 players to avg 20ppg, 10rpg, and 4.2 asts.  Webber was a difference maker as evident with his playoff runs with Golden State, Washington, and Sacramento.  All 3 of those teams had very few playoff appearances before or after Webber played for them.  Their rare appearances and success was during his tenure with them.  The key about Webber is, if you are going by the probability chart, he had a good 5 year run just as Big Ben.  Ben has the title, but CWeb’s numbers are much better and he was a legitimate MVP.  I voted Wallace in, and with that, I would have to put CWeb in.  I think CWeb’s probability is higher than Big Ben’s once again because Webber is one of the best PF’s to play, its just that he didnt play very much for a player who’s career spanned from 93′ to 08′

My Vote: IN

I thought about Manu, and he is one of the best 6th men of all times which makes him an exceptional if not great player.  I dont think he gets in before Gasol, but lets discuss it.

His credentials are solid, 3x NBA champ, and 2x All NBA, 6th man of the year, and All Rookie selection works in his favor.  Only 2 All Star appearances and playing on a team that wasnt wildly popular didnt do anything to help his popularity.

Could Gasol win without the Lakers is the big question, so if Gasol doesnt get in, then I dont see Manu getting in.

I thought about Manu, and he is one of the best 6th men of all times which makes him an exceptional if not great player.  I dont think he gets in before Gasol, but lets discuss it.

His credentials are solid, 3x NBA champ, and 2x All NBA, 6th man of the year, and All Rookie selection works in his favor.  Only 2 All Star appearances and playing on a team that wasnt wildly popular didnt do anything to help his popularity.

Could Gasol win without the Lakers is the big question, so if Gasol doesnt get in, then I dont see Manu getting in.

I think Manu can get in.  Yes, I think so if he can produce like that and they are still contenders, or whoever he is with, mainly because he was one of the best at his class, a 6th man.  To not be a full time starter for a lot of your career with his accomplishments, he can make it.

I didnt think Webber was a lock, but I started thinkin after I posted about Big Ben, I am thinking CWebb has to get in before him, lol.

I think Manu can get in.  Yes, I think so if he can produce like that and they are still contenders, or whoever he is with, mainly because he was one of the best at his class, a 6th man.  To not be a full time starter for a lot of your career with his accomplishments, he can make it.

I didnt think Webber was a lock, but I started thinkin after I posted about Big Ben, I am thinking CWebb has to get in before him, lol.

I think Billups deserves to get in, no doubt about it in my mind, he is much better than his numbers show on paper.  I agree with you though, it will be hard for him to get in but he will make some ballots.

Let me add though, another thing that hurts Chauncey is, he had a very slow start in his first 5 years.  One thing that will help him though is, at 34 he is still producing at a high level.  His ppg is still high considering he has been playing with some damn good scorers like Melo, Stat, Nene.  In NY, he is one hell of a 3rd option.

I think Billups deserves to get in, no doubt about it in my mind, he is much better than his numbers show on paper.  I agree with you though, it will be hard for him to get in but he will make some ballots.

Let me add though, another thing that hurts Chauncey is, he had a very slow start in his first 5 years.  One thing that will help him though is, at 34 he is still producing at a high level.  His ppg is still high considering he has been playing with some damn good scorers like Melo, Stat, Nene.  In NY, he is one hell of a 3rd option.

College Body of Work has to be considered because Mullin got in already and Reggie didnt even make the ballot yet.  I think my 2.0 will be comparisons of players who have gotten in like Mullin and players who havent yet like Miller.

To give you a teaser, some people rank Reggie as a better player than Mullin…but that could be misleading as Reggie was a notoriously famous player.  He was a big time player but he was pretty one dimensional too.  Mullin had better All-NBA selections.

Again, Mullin was famous…Reggie…notoriously famous.  Plus I think being on the Dream Team sealed it for Chris….so he is in the HOF twice already.

College Body of Work has to be considered because Mullin got in already and Reggie didnt even make the ballot yet.  I think my 2.0 will be comparisons of players who have gotten in like Mullin and players who havent yet like Miller.

To give you a teaser, some people rank Reggie as a better player than Mullin…but that could be misleading as Reggie was a notoriously famous player.  He was a big time player but he was pretty one dimensional too.  Mullin had better All-NBA selections.

Again, Mullin was famous…Reggie…notoriously famous.  Plus I think being on the Dream Team sealed it for Chris….so he is in the HOF twice already.

I dont think Billups opens the door for those players, maybe the perception is that he does…and you could be right, that could happen.  Me personally, I rate Billups a lil above guys like Marion and Cassell just be Billups was Detroit’s best player for a while and the whole time they were big time threats in the East…as soon as Billups left, there postseason success ended and Denver’s began.

I dont think Billups opens the door for those players, maybe the perception is that he does…and you could be right, that could happen.  Me personally, I rate Billups a lil above guys like Marion and Cassell just be Billups was Detroit’s best player for a while and the whole time they were big time threats in the East…as soon as Billups left, there postseason success ended and Denver’s began.

Lets take a look at criteria.  It can go in a few different directions.  One thing I did not do when I started this thread, that I will do on my next version, is set criteria.

When you say players "like" Billups, then I am sure we are refering to him from a numbers standpoint.  If we just add one or two pieces of criteria that can change the whole dynamic.

For instance, if we say all perimeter and wings need 20k points to be considered, then that eliminates guys like Billups, but keeps the Carter’s in.  If we are looking at a numbers perspective, then Vince gets in the same way Reggie does.

If we say all PF’s and C’s need at least 10k rebounds to be considered, well then Wallace is in and Webber out.

Now, the criteria I think that is most important from the HOF perspective is, how GOOD a player actually was…this is measured by a couple of things.  Realize when we set this criteria, this will clearly separate Billups from other players, including Reggie.

A player is deemed good by his All-NBA selections, would you agree?  Lets put in the criteria that no one gets considered that has not made All-NBA first or second team.

Well, there goes Reggie.

Another criteria is, the player must have cracked the top 10 in MVP voting.  This is not even close, Reggie received votes only for 2 seasons, he was never higher than 13th.  Billups on the other hand finished in the top 6 twice, that is usually the mark of an elite player.  Billups did make All-NBA second team as well.  Plus he trumps Reggie because he won a title and on top of that was the finals MVP. 

so as I say, if we put in criteria for best players, Billups was a better player than Miller and he is still playing.  if you put in criteria for numbers then Reggie scored a lot more than Billups, but by that token if Reggie gets in Vince goes too because Vince may pass Reggie on the list and do it without making as many 3-pointers. 

Lets take a look at criteria.  It can go in a few different directions.  One thing I did not do when I started this thread, that I will do on my next version, is set criteria.

When you say players "like" Billups, then I am sure we are refering to him from a numbers standpoint.  If we just add one or two pieces of criteria that can change the whole dynamic.

For instance, if we say all perimeter and wings need 20k points to be considered, then that eliminates guys like Billups, but keeps the Carter’s in.  If we are looking at a numbers perspective, then Vince gets in the same way Reggie does.

If we say all PF’s and C’s need at least 10k rebounds to be considered, well then Wallace is in and Webber out.

Now, the criteria I think that is most important from the HOF perspective is, how GOOD a player actually was…this is measured by a couple of things.  Realize when we set this criteria, this will clearly separate Billups from other players, including Reggie.

A player is deemed good by his All-NBA selections, would you agree?  Lets put in the criteria that no one gets considered that has not made All-NBA first or second team.

Well, there goes Reggie.

Another criteria is, the player must have cracked the top 10 in MVP voting.  This is not even close, Reggie received votes only for 2 seasons, he was never higher than 13th.  Billups on the other hand finished in the top 6 twice, that is usually the mark of an elite player.  Billups did make All-NBA second team as well.  Plus he trumps Reggie because he won a title and on top of that was the finals MVP. 

so as I say, if we put in criteria for best players, Billups was a better player than Miller and he is still playing.  if you put in criteria for numbers then Reggie scored a lot more than Billups, but by that token if Reggie gets in Vince goes too because Vince may pass Reggie on the list and do it without making as many 3-pointers. 

Reggie Miller:

What gets him in:

• 18ppg, 3rpg, 3apg
• Top 20 All Time Scoring
• 5-time All-Star. 3-time all NBA.
• #2 All-Time 3pt Field Goals Made
• 1996 Olympic Gold Medalist
• Led the league in FT% 5 times
• Current HOF Probability Ranking: 190

What keeps him out:

• career averages good but not great
• never higher than 3rd Team All-NBA
• low rebound total when consideration is given to his height and minutes played.
• although finishing with high point total, he only cracked the top-10 in scoring once.
• playoff averages almost identical to regular season averages
• never an MVP calibur player
• never won an NBA title
• participated in 3-point contest 5 times but never won
• outside the top-40 in 3pt % but 2nd all-time in attempts

Reggie is a notoriously famous player and this could cause cloudy judgement when viewing how good he actually was.  He was primarily known for being the most prolific 3pt shooter in history when he retired.  That record has since been broken.  Being in the top-20 in scoring and winning a gold medal definitely helps his case.  What hurts him?  He was just not a good all-around player.  He had a playoff scoring average of 21ppg, but ever other catagory was nearly identical to his career numbers, insisting his game didnt really elevate to another level in the postseason…although he was particularly clutch.  Outside of scoring most of his other stats are low considering he is 7th all time in minutes played.  Payton and Kidd have more rebounds despite playing less minutes and being 3-4 inches shorter.  Kidd has nearly twice as many rebounds as Miller.  Being that he was so famous and infamous and provided the NBA with some unforgettable moments, he will always be a popular player, even if not well liked.

My Vote: IN

Reggie Miller:

What gets him in:

• 18ppg, 3rpg, 3apg
• Top 20 All Time Scoring
• 5-time All-Star. 3-time all NBA.
• #2 All-Time 3pt Field Goals Made
• 1996 Olympic Gold Medalist
• Led the league in FT% 5 times
• Current HOF Probability Ranking: 190

What keeps him out:

• career averages good but not great
• never higher than 3rd Team All-NBA
• low rebound total when consideration is given to his height and minutes played.
• although finishing with high point total, he only cracked the top-10 in scoring once.
• playoff averages almost identical to regular season averages
• never an MVP calibur player
• never won an NBA title
• participated in 3-point contest 5 times but never won
• outside the top-40 in 3pt % but 2nd all-time in attempts

Reggie is a notoriously famous player and this could cause cloudy judgement when viewing how good he actually was.  He was primarily known for being the most prolific 3pt shooter in history when he retired.  That record has since been broken.  Being in the top-20 in scoring and winning a gold medal definitely helps his case.  What hurts him?  He was just not a good all-around player.  He had a playoff scoring average of 21ppg, but ever other catagory was nearly identical to his career numbers, insisting his game didnt really elevate to another level in the postseason…although he was particularly clutch.  Outside of scoring most of his other stats are low considering he is 7th all time in minutes played.  Payton and Kidd have more rebounds despite playing less minutes and being 3-4 inches shorter.  Kidd has nearly twice as many rebounds as Miller.  Being that he was so famous and infamous and provided the NBA with some unforgettable moments, he will always be a popular player, even if not well liked.

My Vote: IN

its arguable that T-Mac deserves to go in before Vince.  Vince played more but T-Mac played better.  Once again, if we set criteria….say 25k in points, (which VC is likely to reach and T-Mac is not) Vince gets more consideration.  If we say MVP calibur player, although T-Mac never won it, its not close as to who was better in their prime.  Out of the active players on the MVP share list…T-Mac is #12.  There are ONLY 3 players above him who have NOT won MVP yet.  Chris Paul, Jason Kidd, and Dwight Howard.  That tells you what kind of player T-Mac was in his prime.  Ben Wallace, Jermain O’Neal, and get this…Peja Stojakovic all have higher MVP shares than Vince.

reference:  http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_active.html

its arguable that T-Mac deserves to go in before Vince.  Vince played more but T-Mac played better.  Once again, if we set criteria….say 25k in points, (which VC is likely to reach and T-Mac is not) Vince gets more consideration.  If we say MVP calibur player, although T-Mac never won it, its not close as to who was better in their prime.  Out of the active players on the MVP share list…T-Mac is #12.  There are ONLY 3 players above him who have NOT won MVP yet.  Chris Paul, Jason Kidd, and Dwight Howard.  That tells you what kind of player T-Mac was in his prime.  Ben Wallace, Jermain O’Neal, and get this…Peja Stojakovic all have higher MVP shares than Vince.

reference:  http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/mvp_shares_active.html

well my point to you is, I think in most peoples opinion, Grant and T-Mac should go in before Vince, not the other way around.  When I first mentioned the possibility of Vince being in the HOF, I got negged like hell.  Showing that most people dont even think he belongs.  If you are going by NBA, no you cant make a case for Peja really, but there is a new thread going now about International Players going in the HOF…and if you consider his body of work he gets in no doubt about it.

well my point to you is, I think in most peoples opinion, Grant and T-Mac should go in before Vince, not the other way around.  When I first mentioned the possibility of Vince being in the HOF, I got negged like hell.  Showing that most people dont even think he belongs.  If you are going by NBA, no you cant make a case for Peja really, but there is a new thread going now about International Players going in the HOF…and if you consider his body of work he gets in no doubt about it.

the biggest things that help Peja is he is all time on 3pt list for makes and shot it at 40%.  he gained most of his mvp shares because at one brief time he was considered the best SF in the league where I dont think Vince was ever considered the best SG.  this is tricky because of timing…because Vince came in just as the Kobe was starting to breakout and Peja’s best year was in Lebron’s rookie season IIRC.  Peja had a very short prime.

the biggest things that help Peja is he is all time on 3pt list for makes and shot it at 40%.  he gained most of his mvp shares because at one brief time he was considered the best SF in the league where I dont think Vince was ever considered the best SG.  this is tricky because of timing…because Vince came in just as the Kobe was starting to breakout and Peja’s best year was in Lebron’s rookie season IIRC.  Peja had a very short prime.

the biggest things that help Peja is he is all time on 3pt list for makes and shot it at 40%.  he gained most of his mvp shares because at one brief time he was considered the best SF in the league where I dont think Vince was ever considered the best SG.  this is tricky because of timing…because Vince came in just as the Kobe was starting to breakout and Peja’s best year was in Lebron’s rookie season IIRC.  Peja had a very short prime.

the biggest things that help Peja is he is all time on 3pt list for makes and shot it at 40%.  he gained most of his mvp shares because at one brief time he was considered the best SF in the league where I dont think Vince was ever considered the best SG.  this is tricky because of timing…because Vince came in just as the Kobe was starting to breakout and Peja’s best year was in Lebron’s rookie season IIRC.  Peja had a very short prime.

I have been thinking a lot since I posted about Reggie, and I would have to say he is overated as how good a player/HOF candidate he was.  Sorry Reggie fans, I hate to do this…I was a huge Reggie fan from his UCLA days.  When people say Ben Wallace shouldnt be in but Reggie should, when you look at it, thats kinda obsurd because lets compare from what we have listed…..

If people say Ben was a specialist, then how do you see that Reggie was not?  Reggie was a SHOOTER only.  He wasnt a diverse scorer.  He was a 3-point marksman.  What else could Reggie do?  He wasnt a good defender or passer.  He made 3 All-NBA teams but never higher than 3rd team.

Ben was a specialist in 2 things, rebounding and defense.  He made All-NBA 2nd Team 3 times!  In MVP shares Ben is ranked # 20 while Reggie only finished his career with 3 total MVP points in 18 years.

I always say that too much emphasis is placed on scoring and this is an example.

Accolades:

Championships- Wallace (1) Miller (0)

All-Star Selections- Miller (5) Wallace (4)

All NBA Second Team- Wallace (3) Miller (0)

All NBA Third Team- Miller (3) Wallace (2)

add in the fact that Big Ben led the league in rebounding and was Defensive POY 4-times and I dont see how people think Reggie is better HOF candidate than Wallace and a lot of others out there.   Without Wallace how good are the Pistons all those years during their playoff runs?  We can safely say they dont win a championship without him.  If we take Miller off the Pacers it dont matter anyway because he never won a title for them.  Wallace’s accomplishments are nothing to sneeze at, regardless of the fact that he was non existent on the offensive end…because he still was a winner.

I have been thinking a lot since I posted about Reggie, and I would have to say he is overated as how good a player/HOF candidate he was.  Sorry Reggie fans, I hate to do this…I was a huge Reggie fan from his UCLA days.  When people say Ben Wallace shouldnt be in but Reggie should, when you look at it, thats kinda obsurd because lets compare from what we have listed…..

If people say Ben was a specialist, then how do you see that Reggie was not?  Reggie was a SHOOTER only.  He wasnt a diverse scorer.  He was a 3-point marksman.  What else could Reggie do?  He wasnt a good defender or passer.  He made 3 All-NBA teams but never higher than 3rd team.

Ben was a specialist in 2 things, rebounding and defense.  He made All-NBA 2nd Team 3 times!  In MVP shares Ben is ranked # 20 while Reggie only finished his career with 3 total MVP points in 18 years.

I always say that too much emphasis is placed on scoring and this is an example.

Accolades:

Championships- Wallace (1) Miller (0)

All-Star Selections- Miller (5) Wallace (4)

All NBA Second Team- Wallace (3) Miller (0)

All NBA Third Team- Miller (3) Wallace (2)

add in the fact that Big Ben led the league in rebounding and was Defensive POY 4-times and I dont see how people think Reggie is better HOF candidate than Wallace and a lot of others out there.   Without Wallace how good are the Pistons all those years during their playoff runs?  We can safely say they dont win a championship without him.  If we take Miller off the Pacers it dont matter anyway because he never won a title for them.  Wallace’s accomplishments are nothing to sneeze at, regardless of the fact that he was non existent on the offensive end…because he still was a winner.

Disclaimer: I am just doing this for giggles, I in no way think Fisher is getting in.

Derrick Fisher:

What gets him in:

• 5-time NBA Champion
• highest 3pt percentage in Finals History
• 3rd All Time in 3-pointers made in the Finals
• 2nd All Time 3pt % in the Finals
• MVP Shares among active players: unranked
• Current HOF Probability Ranking: 229

What keeps him out:

• virtually no indivual accolades outside of the NBA Finals
• 8.8pts, 3.1apg, 2.1rpg
• hasnt scored 10,000 points in a 14 year career
• no where near 5,000 assists for career.

Where Fisher excels is in the postseason.  He is a winner with a huge heart.  Individual stats mean nothing in his case.  The HOF criteria is just not designed to let players like him in.  As good as a role player as he was, he wasnt even the best in his era…arguably Robert Horry was.  He made a difference on the Lakers team and would be a difference maker on any team as evident by the Heats pursuit of him.  He is Kobe’s sidekick and has been a damn good one but he could not muster up enough numbers to even appear to be a player who was irreplaceable…which he very well could have been in the Lakers system.  If he was even considered…one stat that would shut the door on him everytime would be that he has some of the lowest assist totals ever for a full time starting PG who played as long as he did.  His Jersey will be retired but that will be the closest thing he will ever see to being immortalized. 

My Vote: Absolutely, positively, with a snowball’s chance in hell NO.  If he makes it on a ballot there will always be someone on there to go before him.

Disclaimer: I am just doing this for giggles, I in no way think Fisher is getting in.

Derrick Fisher:

What gets him in:

• 5-time NBA Champion
• highest 3pt percentage in Finals History
• 3rd All Time in 3-pointers made in the Finals
• 2nd All Time 3pt % in the Finals
• MVP Shares among active players: unranked
• Current HOF Probability Ranking: 229

What keeps him out:

• virtually no indivual accolades outside of the NBA Finals
• 8.8pts, 3.1apg, 2.1rpg
• hasnt scored 10,000 points in a 14 year career
• no where near 5,000 assists for career.

Where Fisher excels is in the postseason.  He is a winner with a huge heart.  Individual stats mean nothing in his case.  The HOF criteria is just not designed to let players like him in.  As good as a role player as he was, he wasnt even the best in his era…arguably Robert Horry was.  He made a difference on the Lakers team and would be a difference maker on any team as evident by the Heats pursuit of him.  He is Kobe’s sidekick and has been a damn good one but he could not muster up enough numbers to even appear to be a player who was irreplaceable…which he very well could have been in the Lakers system.  If he was even considered…one stat that would shut the door on him everytime would be that he has some of the lowest assist totals ever for a full time starting PG who played as long as he did.  His Jersey will be retired but that will be the closest thing he will ever see to being immortalized. 

My Vote: Absolutely, positively, with a snowball’s chance in hell NO.  If he makes it on a ballot there will always be someone on there to go before him.

I am sorry, but Mullin was a better player than Reggie in his prime. 

All-NBA 1st Team- Mullin (1) Miller (0)

All-NBA 2nd Team- Mullin (2) Miller (0)

All-NBA 3rd Team- Mullin (1) Miller (3)

All-Star Selections- Mullin (5) Miller (5)

Mullin was considered as an NBA elite at one point and Reggie was not.

this is the Basketball HOF so there is some consideration to college body of work.

Mullin had the more accomplished career, he won the John Wooden award and is a two-time Olympic Gold Medalist.  He is in the HOF twice as a result of going in with the Dream Team.

I am sorry, but Mullin was a better player than Reggie in his prime. 

All-NBA 1st Team- Mullin (1) Miller (0)

All-NBA 2nd Team- Mullin (2) Miller (0)

All-NBA 3rd Team- Mullin (1) Miller (3)

All-Star Selections- Mullin (5) Miller (5)

Mullin was considered as an NBA elite at one point and Reggie was not.

this is the Basketball HOF so there is some consideration to college body of work.

Mullin had the more accomplished career, he won the John Wooden award and is a two-time Olympic Gold Medalist.  He is in the HOF twice as a result of going in with the Dream Team.

Excellent point, I didnt think about that.  That is something that should be added to his resume.  There is no doubt about it…Fisher is one of the smartest and well respected players the league has ever seen.

Excellent point, I didnt think about that.  That is something that should be added to his resume.  There is no doubt about it…Fisher is one of the smartest and well respected players the league has ever seen.

I thought about Buck, but I didnt make a list for him.  He was one of my favorite players, in college and the NBA.  Slam Magazine ranks him #100 Greatest Player of All Time.

I thought about Buck, but I didnt make a list for him.  He was one of my favorite players, in college and the NBA.  Slam Magazine ranks him #100 Greatest Player of All Time.