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  • #30712
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    mikeyvthedon
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    This was a post I made today when someone brought up that they believe teams should take after Dallas and OKC, who have both won "through loyalty and team commitment". Well, it may appear that is what happened, and both of their methods were incredibly successful, but lets take a deeper look at things before knocking ones ability to build winning teams by any means necessary:

    It has to work both ways man, and you have to be in the right situation for it too work. Do not act like Dallas was incredibly loyal to anyone other than Dirk Nowitzki really. They made tons of trades and took on a ridiculous amount of salary to make this championship happen. The fact that in 5 years you keep only 2 players from a championship team is not exactly ones idea of loyalty. What they were however, was dedicated to trying to get a winning formula around their two best players. They did this by trading for a bunch of former All-Star’s and other players who had contributed to winning environments. Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion and Tyson Chandler, three guys making beaucoup bucks, were critical to them winning. Marion was there for two years, and Chandler just this year.

    Still, Dallas completely changed its core over the years and were always trying to find ways to find that one player to put them over the top. They let Steve Nash go to Phoenix and let Michael Finley bail to San Antonio. They got Jason Terry and Devin Harris (when they took him as the #5 pick in 2004) by trading Antoine Walker to Atlanta, than they traded Harris for Kidd. They had the likes of Antawn Jamison, Juwan Howard and Marcus Camby, all of whom were still very productive players while on Dallas. They just made some good moves and some bad moves before making the right moves to get them this team. To say they have been loyal to anyone other than Dirk Nowitzki though, seems like an incredible stretch.

    The Thunder are a different case, and they have been fairly loyal thus far, but they are also only two years into having success in the play-offs. Give them time, and if they keep coming short, everyone not named Durant will be on the block as well. Not to mention, I am feeling them possibly make a big push for Chris Paul or Dwight Howard, so save the loyalty card until they have both safely signed extensions. Yes, Kevin Durant has been loyal, but so were LeBron and Wade up to that point. They both signed extensions they knew they had to sign, as any extension they tried to sign with another team after their third year would be matched. That is why when people say, "This Restricted Free Agent should sign here", they fail to realize that there team will match it without a second thought. When is the last time a big name RFA left without there team in major financial straights? Anyone? My point exactly. So, if Kevin Love signs somewhere else next year, expect him to loyally be matched by Minnesota (if he is still on Minnesota, which I am guessing he will be).

    But, look what the Thunder just did to Jeff Green? How is that loyalty? They just traded him to try and get better, so in that case it IS loyalty? Well, it is smart, they were trying to go in the right direction, but loyalty is not really involved. Here is why Kevin Durant’s situation is INCREDIBLY different from LeBron James’. Kevin Durant went to a team that decided "We are going to completely rebuild our team". They let one All-Star sign with another team in free agency (for way more money than they were willing to spend on him, which in hindsight was brilliant) and traded another All-Star for the 5th pick in the draft and a couple role players. That 5th pick was spent on Jeff Green, and it was surprising to me at the time as he, A) Would not provide immediate impact (though no one chosen at 5 in that draft would have) and B) Played basically the same position as Kevin Durant. That first year, Durant got too chuck up shots with reckless abandon, and his team got to suck without any expectations of doing otherwise.

    Flash forward to that next years draft, and the Seattle Super Sonics (as you see, they were very loyal to that city, though that is no fault of the players), choose Russell Westbrook with the 4th pick. They were probably hoping for Derrick Rose and more than likely Durant was hoping for his home boy Mike Beasley (they are both from MD), but they made due with getting a fantastic young scoring PG with explosive athleticism. Also, they had finished with the second worst in record in the league, behind no other than the Miami Heat. Well, they get Westbrook, Durant and Green, and what happens? They win 3 more games! Woohoo! Well, it was smart. Durant and Green got better, Russell showed flashes and they had a fantastic position to get a nice lottery pick again. They did, James Harden, the third pick in the draft.

    The Thunder in Durant’s third year did indeed make leaps and bounds as far as improvement. Durant got even better, they added two nice young role guys that year with James Harden and Serge Ibaka (a player they had chosen 24th in the same draft as Westbrook, but who waited a year before coming to the NBA), and they also had a full year of Thabo Sefolosha and Nenad Krstic. They were two players who had been acquired the year before (through a trade and Free Agency), who started every game they played that season with the Thunder (82 and 76 games respectively). Yes, it was Durant, Westbrook and Green leading them, but those guys played nice little roles. They had a very nice 50-32 season, though they were the 8th seed in the play-offs. They played very valiantly before losing to the eventual champions, but remember, the next year an 8 seed beat a one seed. That 8 seed took the Thunder to 7 games this past play-offs (just saying).

    Now, what am I trying to get at by saying all of this? I just want to give a history of two teams that indeed built (well in the Thunders case, are building) a team the right way. But, to say that they built through loyalty is a complete misnomer. Being smart and being loyal are two different teams. The Mavericks finished 67-15 after they made the finals, only to be owned by an 8 seed in the play-offs. After that, Cuban said, "Well, I like this Nowitzki fellow, and this Terry guy can score. Everyone else is for sale." The Thunder saw Green topple like a house of cards in the play-offs, and saw that he was not the answer at the 4, so they shipped him for a tough nosed defensive Center (who toppled like a house of cards in the play-offs. ugh.). The Mavericks swindled and dealed with the best of them, they went from All-Star to All-Star without a second thought, and finally got the right combo. The Thunder actually did do what people so love for teams to do (I have to admit, I love it too). They destroyed there team, sucked for three years and got a franchise player, a great sidekick and a wonderful scorer off of the bench (You might think they were San Antonio if any of them was a big. Though, having that David Robinson guy for the first two championship really helped out. Not too mention the Spurs getting their two sidekick players with the second too last pick of the first round and second round rather than in the top 4.).

    Now, my point is, did LeBron James have such a distinction? Did his team get too suck for his first couple of years too build a team through the draft? Nope. He was poked and prodded immediately, and was always expected to lead his team to the play-offs ASAP. He missed them first two years, both times as one of the last teams out of the draw. They had a team full of the best and brightest……volume shooters who are no longer in the league. DaJuan Wagner, who I know had issues with his health that were very unfortunate, but nonetheless was a chucker. Plus, I am sure Kevin Durant would have loved playing with Darius Miles and Ricky Davis, who wouldn’t? The guy they chose at 10th after LeBron’s rookie year (my boy Luke Jackson, who was incredibly awesome in college and I can still tell you stories about as far as big games), had debilitating back problems that derailed his career! After LeBron’s second year, they had traded that first round pick in 1997, when a 12 year old LeBron James told them too (he was 12 at the time they traded it, October 1, 1997).

    So, building through the Draft, LeBron did not do. It is safe to say, during LeBron first 7 years in the league, all in Cleveland, he had no Steve Nash or Michael Finley (those two other guys, who Dirk never really came close to winning a title with). He had an overpaid Zydrunas Ilgauskas on creaky knees and the RIDICULOUS signing of Larry Hughes. Think Durant would have wanted to trade places? Think Durant is saying, "Why didn’t you guys trade for Mo Williams?" Think Durant is asking for Anderson Verajao instead of Serge Ibaka? You guys have to put things into perspective!

    Yes, it is easy to hate the Heat, they did something that was against the grain. Their may have been collusion with these three players to sign together, which would indeed be kind of lame. But, they did nothing illegal in clearing up the cap space to sign three players who were Unrestricted Free Agents. Not to mention, being loyal is all well and good, but being smart and building teams that can win championships is the name of the game. Ask Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. Ask Pau Gasol. Ask Shawn Marion, Jason Kidd and Tyson Chandler. I am sure all of them would have loved to be on one team that could compete to WIN (key word) championships year in year out. Even the Bulls, I mean, there were three guys at the forefront of Chicago’s 6 rings, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen and Phil Jackson. They even took a while to figure out how to win and get their bumps and bruises. Scottie and Michael both played on other teams, Phil coached the Lakers to 5 more rings. But, the whole time, there heart and soul were in Chicago?

    So, guys, if you are claiming loyalty is the reason to the success of certain teams, I am not buying it. The Pistons won a chip with a team starting only one guy they had drafted at 23rd. The rest were traded for, one at mid-season that year in Rasheed Wallace. Soon as they stopped short of dominance, their heart and soul left (Ben Wallace) and than their fearless leader was on the chopping block (Chauncey Billups). But, they were still successful because they had won a ring. If they had stayed loyal, than doubt they do that. Players are usually loyal when it serves purpose or when they are in a good situation. Fans of certain teams may love a player for loyalty, but they also are cool with them being traded if it can get them a better shot at a championship. Owners are usually the ones that lack loyalty, they are the ones who will sell anyone they can to do whatever saves them money or gets them wins. Think Cleveland would have been loyal to LeBron James if he got hurt? Would they not be thinking the same thing Portland is about Brandon Roy?

    This is a business in the end. It can be brutal. Players have incredibly high expectations, and I do not think anyone has ever had higher expectations than LeBron James. No one has ever been under the microscope as much as him, and this is for the fact that there has never been a physical specimen in the NBA with his athleticism and basketball ability. Name one? Well, you are wrong. Never. Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant had better skill sets and are better players, but if LeBron is anything less than better than these two players, he catches heat. The fact that he did not stick it out in Cleveland and try to win a ring, well, people saw that as a cop out. The fact that he did not win one this year, people knock him down a few more notches. But, too say that LeBron being loyal would have meant he was in a better situation than he is now, well, that seems pretty farfetched. Would he be a better player had he stayed in Cleveland? Doubt it. Would you respect him more? Probably, "the Decision" certainly would have been viewed differently. People in Cleveland would be kissing each other and have a ticker tape parade. But, if LeBron keeps losing, what does loyalty matter?

    There was a player who was incredibly great for 12 seasons in one city. There were rumors, dating back to probably his 4th or 5th season that he could leave, and these rumors persisted every summer. Through this time, he won an MVP, was an All-Star every year and made it out of the first round once. But, Kevin Garnett was loyal to Minnesota for 12 seasons, 5 more than LeBron and missin the play-offs in his final three years. His last year, he did not have Ricky Davis and Zydrunas Ilgauskas. He had Ricky Davis and MARK BLOUNT! Sweet! Well, than, Kevin McHale did this little ditty of a trade that netted the Timberwolves ABSOLUTELY NO FUTURE ASSETS! WHOO! The Wolves have been complete league bottom feeders for years, but, 12 years of hard service and no hard feelings for KG. He was traded, he did not sign somewhere else on national TV. I am sure KG never said, "Get me out of here", or prodded the Wolves to trade him to a contender. Also, do you know what KG said to LeBron after he subsequently beat the Cavs in the 2nd round last year? "You are only young once, do whatever is best for you." KG was loyal longer, but winning really felt better. LeBron got closer with this team than any other he has been on. One ring makes it all worth it. I do not know too many loyal teams in this day in age, and I think if you think that Dirk or Durant would not want to do the same thing these guys did if it helps them win, you are dreaming.

     


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  • #547729
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    Jlv2011

    I’m not gona read all this.  Can I get the summary?

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  • #547736
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    i’m jus so offended
    Participant

     jesus mikey v, looks like u’ve out done urself on this one…what’s the name of this novel you’ve written so i can Spark Note it

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  • #547752
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    BallinlikeMJ23
    Participant

    MikeyV I need spark notes for your posts

    Whats the main idea?

    Whats the plot?

    Whats the setting?

    Who are the main characters?

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  • #547757
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    Johnny Chill

    that was the longest post ever. how many people actually read the whole thing?

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  • #547767
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    mikeyvthedon
    Participant
    • I get bored with short posts with no real research and a lack of general perspective.
    • Dallas has only shown loyalty to Dirk Nowitzki (and Jason Terry to some extent), but not a single player other than Dirk (who was a draft day trade) that made a contribution to there team was drafted by Dallas. Also, many of the contributing players were there for less than 3 years.
    • Seattle/OKC/Kevin Durant was given the ability to suck for two solid years (not to mention the year before which lead to their ability to draft Kevin Durant) and build through the draft. LeBron was not given this same ability and through a series of poor executive decisions, was left in a talent wasteland.
    • Were the Thunder loyal to Jeff Green? Debate, discuss, but no, they were not, they traded him to get better. Loyalty versus building a winning team is a conundrum every team faces. 
    • Basically, I am incredibly sarcastic about how most of these teams do whatever they can to win. Miami put together a situation where they are trying to win, plain and simple. People may not have liked it, or say that it is "Not how it is done" and say that there are better ways, but you show me a winning team, I show you some ways in that they did something extraordinary to maintain that ability. Building through the draft is the ultimate goal, but since the NBA/ABA merger and the rise of Free Agency, it has become more and more difficult to do this. So, the fact that they question the loyalty of Chris Bosh and LeBron James is fine, but do not tell me you would not want to go to greener pastures in the situations of those folks.
    • Pick year after LeBron James rookie year: Luke Jackson (bad back, too bad). Pick after Chris Bosh’s rookie year: Hoffa Araujo. Pick after Kevin Durant’s rookie year: Russell Westbrook. See no difference in those situations? Should LeBron and Chris Bosh made someone on their team Russell Westbrook? Not gonna happen.
    • Kevin Garnett=Loyal. Kevin Garnett=Probably regrets wasting his best years of basketball making it past the first round once. Kevin Garnett=Tells LeBron James not to make the same mistake because winning feels better than loyalty
    • Owners are way less loyal than players, and it is a two way street. Fans always get the worst of it, but odds are, if you can win, you want them to do whatever. People can say whatever they want in hindsight, but if LeBron would have gone to the Bulls, and the Bulls win a championship, than LeBron is a hero. Say you dislike him now, but it was a possibility, and it is true. If he loses, pariah, if he wins, all good.
    • People need to look further into things, they make it too black and white. You can not win by never making changes, you need to constantly improve and constantly look for ways to plug holes in your team.
    • Miami may piss people off, but at the end of the day, they are trying to win by any means necessary. It is not easy to do that, but how can you blame them for trying to build a winning situation? Because it effects parity and is not fun to watch? You realize the Lakers and Mavericks had the two highest salary cap figures in the league, right? It was awesome too watch, and they have not won anything yet, but it has been a cool ride thus far. Plus, how happy were most of you after they lost? I must say, from what I saw, very.
    • If you are bored, than try to read what I write, if not than don’t. I promise you may learn something and it really will not take very long. But, I understand wanting to read paragraphs with no basic point or arguing any new information you might have looked past.
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  • #547775
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    I read the entire thing and I must say, it’s a great read.  People do not realize that the NBA is a business.  In a business, you want to be the top employee and you want to have all the tools to be successful.  The Cavaliers could not give LeBron that, so he went elsewhere.

    It’s okay for GMs to break up friendships like Raja Bell’s and Steve Nash’s but it’s completely wrong for a star player to make his business decision and leave?  And about the "The Decision", I’m pretty sure if LeBron still did that one-hour special and chose to go to Cleveland, nobody would have said a damn thing about how bad "The Decision" was.  They would have said, "Great job for LeBron and his charity work".  Since he decided to make a better business decision for LeBron, the player.. LeBron, the company.. and LeBron, the person, he is now seen as the bad guy?

    Doesn’t everyone make selfish decision on a daily basis that better themselves?  Whether it’s eating the last muffin and your sister or mother wanted it later that day, using the car when you know your dad needed it, or something even simpler like not answering your phone because you do not want to talk to that person.  We all make decisions that are in better interest for ourselves.  LeBron makes a great decision to help himself and everybody jumps on him?

    Oklahoma traded Green.  Only two players from the ’06 runner-up Mavs team were left on the ’11 championship team. 

    Not everybody is as loyal as they seem.

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  • #547791
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    Malik-Universal
    Participant

     great points tol23

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  • #547806
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    JoeWolf1

     Damn guys, how many of you have read a book or hell, even a 2 or 3 page magazine article in the past year?

    You guys are right, it is a business, and loyalty only goes as far as your team winning games.  Look at the most in tact teams year after year and those are the teams that win consecutive championships, get to the NBA finals or get as close as a game or two.

    With sports media being as big as ever, you gotta look to the media for all these projected fairy tales and back stabbing tales of decept.  Everyone wants to root for the team that does it "right" has the same core of 4 or 5 players, works hard, eats their wheaties and stays out of sex scandals and holding cells, so when a team that vaguely resembles or meets a certain percentage of that criteria they are the golden boys and pinnacles of loyalty and team work.  Everybody knows the real world and the business end of the league doesn’t quite operate like that, but the media knows if they get a story right, they get attention, people tune in, buy their magazines, or hit up their website. People like to be entertained, myself included and we’re buying loyalty.

    We’re also buying the villians, I’ve never heard a team be micro analyzed and talked about so much despite losing the championship like the Miami Heat.  I don’t know a single person who likes the Heat and cheers for Lebron and co, but the Heat and Lebron dominated water cooler talk for the past 3 or 4 months.  "Can you believe what he said?" "8 points!? MJ never had a game like that." and everything in between I’ve heard throughout the course of the playoffs.  

    Now don’t get my wrong, I’m not one of those politicians criticizing the liberal media.  I love sports media, and again, I like to be entertained.  I love basketball as a former player, fan, draft junkie, and guy who gets funny looks for doing the dream shake in pickup games against guys 10 years younger than me, but to realize these realities are tweaked for a good story is just common sense.  I thought your piece on loyalty was very good and I think, adside from us die hards, that the average perception on loyalty in sports is 100% controlled by the media, and I’m okay with that.  It just shouldn’t stop people from thinking outside the box.

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  • #547862
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    mikeyvthedon
    Participant

    Glad you liked it, realize it was really long, but I tried to make it fun and sarcastic at least :). You guys raise great points as well, and ultimately hit on the points I was trying to reach. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Oscar Robertson were criticized and called haters for saying that Scottie Pippen had a limited perspective on All-Time basketball. Well, I am not saying that Michael Jordan is not the greatest player of All-Time, but those guys at the very least have a valid point. History has been full of shrewd moves and a lack of loyalty, which has continued into the 1980’s. This lack of loyalty works both ways, and it involves clever executive decisions, spending a lot of money and building around the right players. It sucks when your favorite team loses a player, or when someone leaves for greener pastures, but legacies are always greatly improved by winning. You can fault a player for leaving and wanting to win, but do not act like you would not at least struggle with the decision if you were in there shoes.

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  • #547871
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    DanEboy
    Participant

    I flagged this as offensive. Too much thought for this site.

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  • #547872
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    cward23
    Participant

    Agreed. Dallas hasn’t shown Loyalty since they only have two players from the last team that made it to the finals. Teams are only if the Players can get them wins, if they can’t they will be traded. If OKC continues to come up short you best believe anyone not named Durant or WestBrook will be traded( and those two could be as well if they get around 27 and still cant get to the finals)

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  • #547916
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    mikeyvthedon
    Participant

    I always appreciate the support 🙂 

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  • #547975
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    Hale
    Participant

    To sum it up: It’s a double standard. Team trades player, team gets applauded for making move to possibly improve their team. Good player leaves team, he gets called selfish.

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