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midwestbbscout 15 years, 8 months ago.
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- Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 8:55am #22399
mikeyvthedonParticipantI posted this on the NBA board, but maybe thought I might get more response here, where I initially meant to post it:
Since everyone is going crazy over the audacity of Michael Jordan to call Kobe Bryant a "Top 10 guard of all-time" (Oh, the humanity!), I thought it might be a good time to see who people pick as their top 10 guards of All-Time. To me, this list consists of players who were known primarily as guards, so that does not include players like Hondo Havlicek/George Gervin who were considered combo forwards. I am sure people will say, "well you left out so and so" and I am sure I will, but these are the top 10 players I would define as "guards":
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Magic Johnson
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Jerry West
6. Isiah Thomas
7. Walt Frazier
8. John Stockton
9. Bob Cousy
10. Allen Iverson
5 close calls: Gary Payton, Bill Sharman, Steve Nash, Tiny Archibald, Jason Kidd
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 9:16am #415557
xavier328ParticipantNo George Gervin?
another close call has to be pistol pete even with his short career.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 9:16am #415568
xavier328ParticipantNo George Gervin?
another close call has to be pistol pete even with his short career.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 9:19am #415561
RUDEBOY_ParticipantIts kind of hard to say if someone like Jerry West was better than someone like Wade,becuz they played in different eras and the game is different than it was 40 years ago…Thank goodness for those of us that are too young to have seen the Big O or Bill Russell play, we can watch them on Film…I think players like West,Gervin & Thomas will do today what they did back then..But i doubt if Cousy will be an allstar today…
Here are my Top 10 Guards of All-Time..
1.Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Kobe Bryant
4.Oscar Robertson
5.Isiah Thomas
6.Jerry West
7.Pistol Pete
8.George Gervin
9.John Stockton
10.Jason Kidd
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 9:19am #415572
RUDEBOY_ParticipantIts kind of hard to say if someone like Jerry West was better than someone like Wade,becuz they played in different eras and the game is different than it was 40 years ago…Thank goodness for those of us that are too young to have seen the Big O or Bill Russell play, we can watch them on Film…I think players like West,Gervin & Thomas will do today what they did back then..But i doubt if Cousy will be an allstar today…
Here are my Top 10 Guards of All-Time..
1.Jordan
2.Magic Johnson
3.Kobe Bryant
4.Oscar Robertson
5.Isiah Thomas
6.Jerry West
7.Pistol Pete
8.George Gervin
9.John Stockton
10.Jason Kidd
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 9:21am #415563
mikeyvthedonParticipantDefinitely is a close call and an oversight. I believe that George Gervin was a combo, and some may even define him as more of a 3, I guess guys like David Thompson might fall into that category as well, though David Thompson I think was another oversight, as was Earl Monroe as an honorable mention. I did mention that I considered him a combo forward. I was hoping this list might spark thought/debate, that is what it was meant for, but i think reading the outline is not to painful, it is not as long as many of my other topics and explanations :).
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 9:21am #415574
mikeyvthedonParticipantDefinitely is a close call and an oversight. I believe that George Gervin was a combo, and some may even define him as more of a 3, I guess guys like David Thompson might fall into that category as well, though David Thompson I think was another oversight, as was Earl Monroe as an honorable mention. I did mention that I considered him a combo forward. I was hoping this list might spark thought/debate, that is what it was meant for, but i think reading the outline is not to painful, it is not as long as many of my other topics and explanations :).
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 9:40am #415571
mikeyvthedonParticipantHe might not have been an All-Star today, we can only assume as he played in a totally different era, but he was a major pioneer and proven winner over his career, which to me merits him mention among the best to have ever played guard. I do definitely try to take eras as context, but it is simple to say, "well, players are so much better athletically that they would have left older generations in the dust." The game has changed drastically over time, and as much as technology and training tools have helped modern players get to points of ability few have seen before, you have to give both sides at least some concession. I think people tend to look at players now and say, "well you did not see anyone built like him back than, he would have dominated", without really thinking that with the same tools used now, older basketball greats would have been able to get to much greater heights than they had achieved in their era. I do not think their was as much emphasis on sleeping, eating and living the sport as their is now a day, I might be wrong, but I think many will agree with me. It could be drugs, hormones, who knows, but I think that some of those old legends might have had greater physical tools under the current system of basketball training. So, looking at both sides, I would not just say, well, anything Cousy did every 12 year old can do right now. He was a pioneer, and he did not have someone doing those things before him, while we have the ability to see some of the things he did an imitate/innovate them. Pete Maravich was much the same way, he was a pioneer and just someone who did things with a basketball noone had done before him. I think that places somewhere in a persons all-time achievement, what they added or changed in the game, and Cousy and Pete Maravich were two pioneers when it came to dribbling/passing, even with their athletic limitations. Afterall, IQ is such a huge part of it as well, and Bob Cousy’s brain was a big reason for 6 Celtics championships. He was lucky enough to be in an era where he was indeed an All-Star and one of the best players in the game, and I guess I have a hard time saying that if he had someone like himself to emulate that he would not have still been a great player. As far as Gervin goes, I would rate him very high on my list of All-Time players, as I would Hondo, Rick Barry, David Thompson, but I was just going with people who were considered guards in the strictest sense of the word, though there seems to be no set definition.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 9:40am #415582
mikeyvthedonParticipantHe might not have been an All-Star today, we can only assume as he played in a totally different era, but he was a major pioneer and proven winner over his career, which to me merits him mention among the best to have ever played guard. I do definitely try to take eras as context, but it is simple to say, "well, players are so much better athletically that they would have left older generations in the dust." The game has changed drastically over time, and as much as technology and training tools have helped modern players get to points of ability few have seen before, you have to give both sides at least some concession. I think people tend to look at players now and say, "well you did not see anyone built like him back than, he would have dominated", without really thinking that with the same tools used now, older basketball greats would have been able to get to much greater heights than they had achieved in their era. I do not think their was as much emphasis on sleeping, eating and living the sport as their is now a day, I might be wrong, but I think many will agree with me. It could be drugs, hormones, who knows, but I think that some of those old legends might have had greater physical tools under the current system of basketball training. So, looking at both sides, I would not just say, well, anything Cousy did every 12 year old can do right now. He was a pioneer, and he did not have someone doing those things before him, while we have the ability to see some of the things he did an imitate/innovate them. Pete Maravich was much the same way, he was a pioneer and just someone who did things with a basketball noone had done before him. I think that places somewhere in a persons all-time achievement, what they added or changed in the game, and Cousy and Pete Maravich were two pioneers when it came to dribbling/passing, even with their athletic limitations. Afterall, IQ is such a huge part of it as well, and Bob Cousy’s brain was a big reason for 6 Celtics championships. He was lucky enough to be in an era where he was indeed an All-Star and one of the best players in the game, and I guess I have a hard time saying that if he had someone like himself to emulate that he would not have still been a great player. As far as Gervin goes, I would rate him very high on my list of All-Time players, as I would Hondo, Rick Barry, David Thompson, but I was just going with people who were considered guards in the strictest sense of the word, though there seems to be no set definition.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 9:42am #415577
mikeyvthedonParticipantI had an explanation about Dwyane Wade on my other post, guess it did not copy, but I was saying that I tend to look at the players whole career in a broad sense, and Wade has just played 7 years up until this point. I do feel that he could end up very high on the list, and if I had to put him somewhere, I would say 6 or 7.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 9:42am #415588
mikeyvthedonParticipantI had an explanation about Dwyane Wade on my other post, guess it did not copy, but I was saying that I tend to look at the players whole career in a broad sense, and Wade has just played 7 years up until this point. I do feel that he could end up very high on the list, and if I had to put him somewhere, I would say 6 or 7.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 9:53am #415585
esperanzafleet69Participantgreat list.. i just think fraizer should be moved to #10, possibly jerry west down a little too..
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 9:53am #415596
esperanzafleet69Participantgreat list.. i just think fraizer should be moved to #10, possibly jerry west down a little too..
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 10:06am #415593
Mr. ChicagoParticipantMy order is a littler different, but overall great work.
Couldn’t gree more with your assessment of Cousy, we can go on and on about how they wouldn’t be able to compete athletically and what not, however we really need to judge on how they affected the game in the time period they played in.
Well here is my order.
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Jerry West
6. Isiah Thomas
7. John Stockton
8. Bob Cousy
9. Allen Iverson
10. Gary Payton
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 10:06am #415605
Mr. ChicagoParticipantMy order is a littler different, but overall great work.
Couldn’t gree more with your assessment of Cousy, we can go on and on about how they wouldn’t be able to compete athletically and what not, however we really need to judge on how they affected the game in the time period they played in.
Well here is my order.
1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Jerry West
6. Isiah Thomas
7. John Stockton
8. Bob Cousy
9. Allen Iverson
10. Gary Payton
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 10:20am #415597
llperezi have no problem with mikeyvthedon’s list although i might flip flop frazier and stockton.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 10:20am #415608
llperezi have no problem with mikeyvthedon’s list although i might flip flop frazier and stockton.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 11:01am #415619
mikeyvthedonParticipantThank you my friend, and I would have no problem with Stockton and Frazier possibly being flip flopped on a list. My one thing with Clyde (Not Drexler, who was also an amazing guard, but Walt Frazier’s nickname) was not only his amazing body of work over his career (19, 6 assists, 5 boards, on strong shooting from the field and line), but also his contributions to the Knicks Finals wins. Especially the famous triple double in the Knicks 1970 title win, one of the best performances in NBA Finals history. Stockton was amazing, people tend to not really realize how good he was, thinking he was just some white guy who rode Karl Malone’s coat tails (which is definitely not the case, the guy was a ferocious baller), but again, his lack of a ring is the one thing that puts him further down on my list. He is after all the first guard on my list without a title. But, he was also an iron man, a great complete basketball player and he has some records that people are nowhere near breaking at this current date. He really was tough as nails, and he rarely missed games due to injury, pretty damn amazing, not to mention his shooting percentages rival those of Steve Nash.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 11:01am #415630
mikeyvthedonParticipantThank you my friend, and I would have no problem with Stockton and Frazier possibly being flip flopped on a list. My one thing with Clyde (Not Drexler, who was also an amazing guard, but Walt Frazier’s nickname) was not only his amazing body of work over his career (19, 6 assists, 5 boards, on strong shooting from the field and line), but also his contributions to the Knicks Finals wins. Especially the famous triple double in the Knicks 1970 title win, one of the best performances in NBA Finals history. Stockton was amazing, people tend to not really realize how good he was, thinking he was just some white guy who rode Karl Malone’s coat tails (which is definitely not the case, the guy was a ferocious baller), but again, his lack of a ring is the one thing that puts him further down on my list. He is after all the first guard on my list without a title. But, he was also an iron man, a great complete basketball player and he has some records that people are nowhere near breaking at this current date. He really was tough as nails, and he rarely missed games due to injury, pretty damn amazing, not to mention his shooting percentages rival those of Steve Nash.
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 11:06am #415621
IndianaBasketballParticipant1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Jerry West
6. Isiah Thomas
7. John Stockton
8. Bob Cousy
9. George Gervin
10. Walt Fraiser
—
11. Allen Iverson
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 11:06am #415632
IndianaBasketballParticipant1. Michael Jordan
2. Magic Johnson
3. Oscar Robertson
4. Kobe Bryant
5. Jerry West
6. Isiah Thomas
7. John Stockton
8. Bob Cousy
9. George Gervin
10. Walt Fraiser
—
11. Allen Iverson
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 11:47am #415644
talmighty87ParticipantRegarding this post I feel like if Bob Cousy is not in your Top 5 you not talking bout NOTHING
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 11:47am #415656
talmighty87ParticipantRegarding this post I feel like if Bob Cousy is not in your Top 5 you not talking bout NOTHING
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 11:58am #415648
llperezwell most seem to have jordan, kobe, magic, robertson and west as the top 5 in some order. WHo is bob cousy so clearly ahead of among those 5 that you cant know what you are talking about if you dont include him?
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 11:58am #415660
llperezwell most seem to have jordan, kobe, magic, robertson and west as the top 5 in some order. WHo is bob cousy so clearly ahead of among those 5 that you cant know what you are talking about if you dont include him?
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 3:58pm #415761
flybobbyflyParticipantits funny that positions are seperated into guards and forwards. power forward is much closer to center than to small forward and shooting guard is much closer to small forward than point guard.
I think they should change the names of the positions in order to eradicate these comparisons. something like this.
point=point guard
shooting wing=shooting guard
power wing= small forward
high post=power forward
low post=center
or something that would more accurately describe the positions at least
0 - Posted on: Tue, 10/19/2010 - 3:58pm #415773
flybobbyflyParticipantits funny that positions are seperated into guards and forwards. power forward is much closer to center than to small forward and shooting guard is much closer to small forward than point guard.
I think they should change the names of the positions in order to eradicate these comparisons. something like this.
point=point guard
shooting wing=shooting guard
power wing= small forward
high post=power forward
low post=center
or something that would more accurately describe the positions at least
0 - Posted on: Wed, 10/20/2010 - 8:52pm #416430
whyyouhatingParticipantIts funny how some people don’t put Iverson on that list but he is honestly the greatest small guard to ever do it I mean he 3rd all time in scoring behind Jordan and Wilt,and he also led a very mediocre Philly team to the finals and managed not to get swept by a power house Lakers team? Iverson is top 7 guard all time
0 - Posted on: Wed, 10/20/2010 - 8:52pm #416435
whyyouhatingParticipantIts funny how some people don’t put Iverson on that list but he is honestly the greatest small guard to ever do it I mean he 3rd all time in scoring behind Jordan and Wilt,and he also led a very mediocre Philly team to the finals and managed not to get swept by a power house Lakers team? Iverson is top 7 guard all time
0 - Posted on: Thu, 10/21/2010 - 6:10am #416533
IndianaBasketballParticipantAs phenomenal as Allen Iverson was, he was a poor defender (other than in the passing lanes) and lacked leadership. He was also somewhat selfish in my opinion. I’ve never seen another player’s style of play equal so many empty possessions on offense.
0 - Posted on: Thu, 10/21/2010 - 6:10am #416536
IndianaBasketballParticipantAs phenomenal as Allen Iverson was, he was a poor defender (other than in the passing lanes) and lacked leadership. He was also somewhat selfish in my opinion. I’ve never seen another player’s style of play equal so many empty possessions on offense.
0 - Posted on: Thu, 10/21/2010 - 6:50am #416543
Im Your FatherParticipantIndiana, I agree, but I think that it’s worth noting that his efficiency increased dramatically, with his scoring remaining very high, when he played with Melo before he began his decline. I just wonder if he would have played differently had he had another star.
0 - Posted on: Thu, 10/21/2010 - 6:50am #416546
Im Your FatherParticipantIndiana, I agree, but I think that it’s worth noting that his efficiency increased dramatically, with his scoring remaining very high, when he played with Melo before he began his decline. I just wonder if he would have played differently had he had another star.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 10/22/2010 - 8:26am #417175
midwestbbscoutParticipantStockton is at least number 5…..He is the all-time best in 2 of the 5 main stats in NBA history….and calling Iverson a poor defender is unfair….he was pretty good I think for being outsized by 4-6 inches and at least 30 pounds every night…..
0 - Posted on: Fri, 10/22/2010 - 8:26am #417178
midwestbbscoutParticipantStockton is at least number 5…..He is the all-time best in 2 of the 5 main stats in NBA history….and calling Iverson a poor defender is unfair….he was pretty good I think for being outsized by 4-6 inches and at least 30 pounds every night…..
0 - Posted on: Fri, 10/22/2010 - 8:56am #417191
Mr. 19134ParticipantMr. Indiana you are completely wrong about Iverson’s lack of leadership. This is not my opinion this is a fact. Iverson was as competitive as they came. He lead by example and vocally as he got older. The team use to always follow Iverson wherever he took them because he would never take a play off. Every game he played he played like he was going to die later that night. For that reason and his competitive nature he always commanded nothing but the utmost respect of whoever was on his team in any giving year. These last few years who smudging the legacy of one of the top 10 players of our generation. What the man has accomplished in that body is truly incredible. And he never had anybody on his team who was even remotely close to being a second option untill he played with Melo. Matt Hapring? George Lynch? Kenny Thomas? Derrick Coleman? Keith Van Horn? None of these players were legitimate second options and yes with the defenses focused solely on stopping him he got the job done anyway. The Sixers in Iverson’s prime were one of the most dangerous teams in the league because they could spank anybody on any given night. And you take Iverson off that team they are easily top 5 worse in the league. His impact on that franchise goes beyond borders Allen Iverson is a transcendent talent, the likes that we will never see again.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 10/22/2010 - 8:56am #417194
Mr. 19134ParticipantMr. Indiana you are completely wrong about Iverson’s lack of leadership. This is not my opinion this is a fact. Iverson was as competitive as they came. He lead by example and vocally as he got older. The team use to always follow Iverson wherever he took them because he would never take a play off. Every game he played he played like he was going to die later that night. For that reason and his competitive nature he always commanded nothing but the utmost respect of whoever was on his team in any giving year. These last few years who smudging the legacy of one of the top 10 players of our generation. What the man has accomplished in that body is truly incredible. And he never had anybody on his team who was even remotely close to being a second option untill he played with Melo. Matt Hapring? George Lynch? Kenny Thomas? Derrick Coleman? Keith Van Horn? None of these players were legitimate second options and yes with the defenses focused solely on stopping him he got the job done anyway. The Sixers in Iverson’s prime were one of the most dangerous teams in the league because they could spank anybody on any given night. And you take Iverson off that team they are easily top 5 worse in the league. His impact on that franchise goes beyond borders Allen Iverson is a transcendent talent, the likes that we will never see again.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 10/22/2010 - 9:04am #417201
Mr. 19134ParticipantKobe Bryant has proved that Jordans game can be emulated, maybe not as good but dam close.
LeBron James has proved that Magic’s style of game can be infused with Jordans and put on steroids.
Dirk is doing his best Bird and its mightily impressive.
Great Big Men are always being compared to each other and DH tho not as good as Shaq, is certainly physically fearing people like The Big Aristotle does.
Amare picked up where Shawn Kemp left off.
Theres a Steve Nash doing what Stockton use to do.
Theres a Chris Paul doing what Payton use to do.
But I can promise you never will you see another 5’11 160 lb shooting guard get taken with the first pick in the draft only 2 years released from prison. Never will a good that small come into the league with a du rag and swagger and in his first season make even the League most dominant player at the times head spin. Never will a player that nobody could control be that small again and just completely dominate because he loved the fans and the fans loved him back.
And I don’t think ever again will there be somebody under 6’1 winning the scoring title. Let alone 4 of them.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 10/22/2010 - 9:04am #417204
Mr. 19134ParticipantKobe Bryant has proved that Jordans game can be emulated, maybe not as good but dam close.
LeBron James has proved that Magic’s style of game can be infused with Jordans and put on steroids.
Dirk is doing his best Bird and its mightily impressive.
Great Big Men are always being compared to each other and DH tho not as good as Shaq, is certainly physically fearing people like The Big Aristotle does.
Amare picked up where Shawn Kemp left off.
Theres a Steve Nash doing what Stockton use to do.
Theres a Chris Paul doing what Payton use to do.
But I can promise you never will you see another 5’11 160 lb shooting guard get taken with the first pick in the draft only 2 years released from prison. Never will a good that small come into the league with a du rag and swagger and in his first season make even the League most dominant player at the times head spin. Never will a player that nobody could control be that small again and just completely dominate because he loved the fans and the fans loved him back.
And I don’t think ever again will there be somebody under 6’1 winning the scoring title. Let alone 4 of them.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 10/22/2010 - 9:09am #417209
midwestbbscoutParticipanthe hurt his reputation as a team player and a leader by what he did in Memphis…..I already thought he was and he had an opportunity to prove to his haters that he was about the team by mentoring a guy like OJ Mayo…..he threw that chance down the pisser…..
furthermore, despite being a very unique offensive weapon, possibly the most unique we’ve ever seen…..Dirk is by no means Larry Bird…..
0 - Posted on: Fri, 10/22/2010 - 9:09am #417211
midwestbbscoutParticipanthe hurt his reputation as a team player and a leader by what he did in Memphis…..I already thought he was and he had an opportunity to prove to his haters that he was about the team by mentoring a guy like OJ Mayo…..he threw that chance down the pisser…..
furthermore, despite being a very unique offensive weapon, possibly the most unique we’ve ever seen…..Dirk is by no means Larry Bird…..
0 - Posted on: Fri, 10/22/2010 - 10:27am #417270
IndianaBasketballParticipant@Mr. 19134
Tell me the last great leader and example who complained about having to practice?
And it’s arguable that Iverson ran all of his second options off. Do you remember Jerry Stackhouse? What about Larry Hughes?
Iveron was a phenomenal player, but not the easiest to play with. Larry Brown was able to surround him with the perfect team with Mutumbo, Snow, Lynch, McKey, etc. A bunch of defenders, role players, etc who didn’t mind doing all of the dirty work while Iverson took all of the shots.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 10/22/2010 - 10:27am #417275
IndianaBasketballParticipant@Mr. 19134
Tell me the last great leader and example who complained about having to practice?
And it’s arguable that Iverson ran all of his second options off. Do you remember Jerry Stackhouse? What about Larry Hughes?
Iveron was a phenomenal player, but not the easiest to play with. Larry Brown was able to surround him with the perfect team with Mutumbo, Snow, Lynch, McKey, etc. A bunch of defenders, role players, etc who didn’t mind doing all of the dirty work while Iverson took all of the shots.
0 - Posted on: Fri, 10/22/2010 - 1:48pm #417327
The Scare Crow ReturnsParticipantForget about stats,rings and practice, yeah practice…he was pound for pound the greatest one on one scorer ever and the fact he was the underdog his whole career is what people should remember…As a Philly guy I was lucky to see that man play in his prime…he was simply the best player with the ball in his hands ever…MJ and Kobe have the hardware but imagine a 6’6 Iverson with half the talent of the Bulls or Lakers Dynasty’s…I’d take that guy over MJ and Kobe in a game of 1 on 1 if my life depended on it…Teams are still enormored with AI…if he would only commit himself to a year of conditioning in China and then buy into being a role player for any Contender he’d can back a lot of respect…I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Iverson…
0 - Posted on: Fri, 10/22/2010 - 1:48pm #417331
The Scare Crow ReturnsParticipantForget about stats,rings and practice, yeah practice…he was pound for pound the greatest one on one scorer ever and the fact he was the underdog his whole career is what people should remember…As a Philly guy I was lucky to see that man play in his prime…he was simply the best player with the ball in his hands ever…MJ and Kobe have the hardware but imagine a 6’6 Iverson with half the talent of the Bulls or Lakers Dynasty’s…I’d take that guy over MJ and Kobe in a game of 1 on 1 if my life depended on it…Teams are still enormored with AI…if he would only commit himself to a year of conditioning in China and then buy into being a role player for any Contender he’d can back a lot of respect…I don’t think we’ve seen the last of Iverson…
0 - Posted on: Fri, 10/22/2010 - 3:56pm #417359
midwestbbscoutParticipanthe dug his own grave with what he did in Memphis…..nobody will ever believe him even if he swears on his children that he will commit to being a role player….
0 - Posted on: Fri, 10/22/2010 - 3:56pm #417362
midwestbbscoutParticipanthe dug his own grave with what he did in Memphis…..nobody will ever believe him even if he swears on his children that he will commit to being a role player….
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