Magic beats out Kobe as the best Laker Ever

I can see that does that really matter though.
Especially since Kareem and Wilt are better all-time players than Kobe.

Pretty sure this was done like two weeks ago.

Think the only differences I had from you were:

Atlanta – Bob Petit
New Jersey – Jason Kidd
Oklahoma – Gary Payton
Washington – Elvin Hayes

i got kobe number 1 laker all time. But there have been so many great lakers, kobe, magic, karrem and wilt can all have an argument for top 5 all time in the whole league. so its debateable.

one’s i would change from rudeboys:

atlanta-bob petit. Arguably the third greatest pf ever and he darn near single handidly ended the celtics 8 straight championship run by leading the hawks over the great celtics dynasty.

denver- i would go with alex english. He was basically what carmelo is now except he did it for a longer period of time so i give him the nod.

lakers-kobe bryant. 5 titles and counting. Nothing against magic whatsoever, but i just hitnk kobe is better. Both had tons of help and hall of fame teammates so you cant bring that into the equation.

oklahoma city-gary payton. Honestly since we are including the entire franchise history, there really is no argument at this point for durant over payton.

utah-karl malone, you give a tie to malone and stockton, but i give the edge to malone.

Maybe Vince Carter for Toronto? Hakeem played there too, but he wasn’t the same.

The Lakers have had a lot of great players. I’d go with Magic as the greatest simply because of what he did for the Lakers and what he meant to the game in general. It’ll be hard for Kobe to top that.

Magic had five title and nine finals appearances in twelve years. He missed the conference finals twice in his career, three if you include the ’96 comeback. Nobody can compare the two based off impact on the sport or the winning.

And How many HoF did Magic Johnson play with? Kobe has only played with 1 surefire HoF along with 1 potential HoF in Pau Gasol. The Kobe played with Shaq argument is moot. With that being said, I respect your opinion. Yeah, Kobe wouldn’t ever make his players better like how Magic did, but at the same time, Kobe is an entirely different type of player. I know this is cliche but comparing Kobe to Magic would be like comparing apples to oranges; they are both round, but they have two entirely different tastes.

And How many HoF did Magic Johnson play with? Kobe has only played with 1 surefire HoF along with 1 potential HoF in Pau Gasol.
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Magic won two championships with only one other HOF (Kareem).

Yes he won a championship in 85 with two hall of famers (Kareem and Worthy) but this was before Worthy had made a single all star game so he wasn’t playing at anywhere close to a hall of fame level yet.

By the time the 87 and 88 championships rolled around Worthy was a perennial all-star but Kareem was over the age of 40 and was playing nowhere near a hall of fame level anymore with averages of 14.6 PPG and 6.0 RPG in 1988.

So if you really look in depth Magic only played with one other elite player during each of his championship seasons. Which is on par with Kobe who had Shaq for his first three championships and Pau for his last two.

It isn’t like Magic had this super loaded team surrounded with superstars year in and year out. He carried his team past other strong teams such as Philadelphia, Boston and Detroit which also had multiple hall of famers.

Someone needs to look at how the careers of James Worthy and Byron Scott died as soon as Magic retired before talking about the great stars Magic had around him. They also need to look into how little Kareem cared before Magic got to LA.

Here is a fact: Kobe Bryant was on a team with Lamar Odom and Caron Butler and missed the playoffs. Those same two were with a Dwyane Wade team that made the second round of the playoffs. Kobe can win ten titles, but both years of being dropped in the first round and the year he missed the playoffs will always be on his resume.

“Here is a fact: Kobe Bryant was on a team with Lamar Odom and Caron Butler and missed the playoffs. Those same two were with a Dwyane Wade team that made the second round of the playoffs.”

Ha ha let’s get serious… What are you… Anti-Kobe or something? I don’t think Kobe is the best Laker, but what you posted was awful lol.

The East was terrible when Wade, Odom and Butler played together. The Heat got into the playoffs as a 4th seed with a 42-40 record. The Celtics got into the playoffs as an 8th seed with a 36-46 record… Knicks were the 7th seed with a 39-43 record. The East only had two teams win 50 games that season… It was Indiana, Detroit and everybody else.

SIX teams in the West had 50+ wins when Kobe, Odom and Butler played together. Not to mention the Lakers were in pure rebuilding mode. Phil was replaced with Rudy Tomjanovich, who resigned halfway through the season. Fisher opted out. Fox was traded.

IF not for Kobe and Lamar getting injured (Kobe played 66 and Lamar 64 games), they STILL could’ve made the playoffs as the 8th seed.

It isn’t anti-Kobe to point out that three years of his prime were complete bombs, and it wasn’t because he was completely without talent around him. The Kobe apologists seem to ignore these years in the same way you conveniently ignore that the Lakers were 6-10 without Kobe that year, which wasn’t much worse than when they were with him, 28-38. The Lakers gagged that year in March and April when they had Kobe and Odom. They didn’t sit Odom until they got eliminated so yours is a nice little fiction, nothing more. Unless, of course, if you unaware of the difference between 34 wins over 82 games and 42?

How can you put Nash over Barkley? Durant over GP? Bosh over TMac and VC? Dr. J over A.I?

@BothTeamsPlayedHard

During those three years, other than Lamar Odom and Caron Butler (for one season), who did Kobe have? Smush Parker? Chris Mihm? Laron Profit? Von Wafer? Kwame Brown? Stanislav Medvedenko? Maurice Evans? A young Andrew Bynum?

Even with those players, they made the playoffs two of those three seasons. They lost to a better Suns team that had way more talent and firepower.

I’m not a Kobe apologist, but I know the statement you made about Wade taking the Heat to the playoffs with Odom and Butler was bogus lol. The Heat weren’t that good in 2003-04 and the East was garbage… Two teams got into the playoffs without winning 40 games…

wade also had eddie jones who averaged like 16ppg and was just coimng off being all starand brian grant who was one of the most solid bigs in the east. The lakers were injury riddled that year they missed the playoffs and after the suppossed big 3 of kobe, lamar and caron, the next best probably chucky atkins or chris mihm.

As for magic in the 80’s, he also had norm mixon, bob mcadoo, byron scott, ac green, michael cooper, jamal wilkes as well as worthy and kareem. Those 80’s teams were flat out stacked period even if all those all-stars didnt all peak at the same time.

As for magic in the 80’s, he also had norm mixon, bob mcadoo, byron scott, ac green, michael cooper, jamal wilkes as well as worthy and kareem. Those 80’s teams were flat out stacked period even if all those all-stars didnt all peak at the same time.
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Mcadoo was a washed up bench player during those 80s championships teams. He played less than 20 minutes a game and averaged around 10 points per game. If we’re going to list him among Magic’s terrific supporting cast we should also give the same consideration to guys like Mitch Richmond, Ron Harper and Gary Payton who played with Kobe when they were well out of their primes.

Yes the Showtime Lakers had a very good team I’m not disputing that. However it really isn’t any better than the supporting cast for Kobe during all his championship runs.

You can take all the Lakers players Kobe has played with that ever came close to making an all-star game and make the same argument:

“He also had Ron Harper, AC Green, Glen Rice, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, Ron Artest, Isaiah Rider, Mitch Richmond as well as Shaq and Gasol. That 21st century team was flat out stacked period even if all those all-stars didn’t all peak at the same time.”

Only prob for me is OK/Sonics Durant over Payton maybe in a few yrs but not now not even close they have a thing for sports players in Seattle and Payton and Mia Hamm are so respect there no way u can go against that an what Payton did for them

dwight, you’re wrong. Macadoo played 4 years with the lakers and avereged 10, 15, 13 & 11 points. He wasa one of the top bench guys in the league. And you are gonna compare him to the lakers having mitch richmond for 1 year when he averaged like 5? You are ignoring all the other guys i mentioned as well. You are digging for some cheap arguments to discredit kobe my friend.

im just looking at your name’s for kobe vs my name for magic.
My names:

bob mcadoo: 4 seasons of 10, 13, 15, 11
jamal wilkes: 8 years of 20, 23, 21, 20, 17, 8
norm nixon: 18, 17, 18, 15
byron scott: 11, 16, 15, 17, 22, 20, 16, 15
james worthy: 13, 15, 18, 20, 19, 20, 21, 21, 21,
kareem: 25, 26, 24,22, 22, 22, 23, 18, 15, 10
ac green: 6, 11, 11, 13, 13, 10, 14
cooper: known for defense but averaged about 10 ppg for 10 seasons

i present those guys as magics teammates and your response is

“if you are gonna include all those guys then we might as well include kobe’s teammates like:

isiah rider, mitch richmond, ron harper, ac green as well as payton and malone at the end of their careers? The only guy on that list who even played more then 1 season for the lakers is harper and he was at the end of his career.

that’s pretty soft man.

I’ll admit llperez you’re right about a few things. Half the guys I mentioned didn’t play more than a year or two for the Lakers dynasty of the 2000s.

I was speaking tongue in cheek because I felt that including McAdoo as a star player or a “HOF“ surrounding Magic was misleading if technically accurate. Similar to how me including Karl Malone as a HOF that surrounded Kobe would be extremely misleading if technically accurate.

McAdoo during the two championship seasons of 1982 and 1985 averaged 9.6 PPG and 10.5 PPG respectively. 3.9 RPG and 4.5 RPG. 18.2 and 19 MPG. Throwing around the term All-Star to describe McAdoo at that stage of his career is very misleading. Yes he was a very good bench player. But he was a BENCH player. A role player. No more talented and less productive than Odom has been for LA.

Since my argument was weak before I’ll try to make it a little more comprehensive this time around and only include the actual players that I feel made significant contributions for the Lakers during their championship runs of the 21st century.

Kobe has played with Shaq, Glen Rice, Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, Horace Grant, Samaki Walker, Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom and Ron Artest.

Yes some of those guys only played a season or two with him but during each of the 8 Lakers Finals appearances of the last 11 years Kobe was surrounded by at least 4 of the afore mentioned players playing significant roles comparable to the Showtime Lakers crew which included guys like McAdoo, Cooper and AC Green.

It’s interesting that you list the points per game for most of Magic’s star supporting cast players. As if PPG is an absolute indication of a better player.

Of course Magic’s teammates scored more points than Bryant‘s teammates. They were playing with one of the greatest passers in NBA history.

Magic averaged 11.2 APG over the course of his career and attempted 13.2 FG per game. Kobe has averaged 4.7 APG and 19.3 FG attempts per game. His teammates aren’t going to score as much because there hasn’t been anybody on the current Lakers squads half the distributer Magic was.

Just because Kobe’s teammates don’t score as much doesn’t make them any less talented or important to the Lakers success. Not to mention it doesn’t mean that they are incapable of averaging 17+ PPG if they were in the right situation to do so. On most other teams those same players would be scoring 15+ points per game.

Using his current teammates as an example do you honestly think Ron Artest, Andrew Bynum and Lamar Odom are incapable of averaging around 17 PPG for other teams in the league right now? That would put them on par with guys like Nixon and Scott for most of their careers.

You’re right about another thing. You list Magic’s supporting cast and the years they played with the Lakers. Many of them played for large stretches of the 80s for LA while on the other hand Kobe’s supporting cast (besides Fisher) has gone through a lot of changes.

A matter of fact there is one three year stretch where I will admit that Magic supporting cast was clearly superior to Kobe’s: 2005-2007. And in that three year stretch the Lakers missed the playoffs once and were eliminated from the first round of the playoffs twice.

My stance remains the same; Kobe’s surrounding cast during the 8 years when he has made the finals has been just as good as the cast that surrounded Magic during the 80’s.

Honestly I don’t consider myself a “Kobe hater” even though I know that’s a term thrown around here for anybody who doesn’t consider Kobe either the greatest or the second greatest player of all time.

But if I’m a “Kobe hater” then I consider half the fans on this board “Fisher/Bynum/Odom haters” because so many of them seem not to appreciate Kobe’s supporting cast. Yes Magic had a very good supporting cast but during Kobe’s championship years (including the years in which they lost to Detroit and Boston in the finals) he had a very good group of teammates surrounding him as well.

dwight, that is much better stated and reasonable. And the biggest thing is from the very get go on this thread i said they both have played with great talent thus who they played with should be thrown out the window. This was after someone said kobe had shaq so there is no way to put kobe ahead of magic as if magic was carrying arouna bunch of bums or somehting.

I still dont see why you bring up samaki walker. That guy is a straight up bench warmer if there ever was one.

I also dissagree about magics treamamtes putting up stats because of magic. Did he help? ABsolutely. He defenitely made thier jobs easier. But Every single player i mentioned put up huge numbers without magic. James worthy averaged 20ppg the year after magic retired and that was with him in his 30’s. Kareem was arugubaly the best center in the game before magic. Ac green best and highest scoring seasons came after magic retired. Norm Nixon was putting up all star number without magic and even with magic was still averaging over 8apg and even got 11apg one year playing with magic. Byron scott is proabably the only guy who went down without magic, and he was just getting old.

Again, i looked up mcadoos stats. 10, 11, 13 and 15. Not great, but i never said it like magic played with him during his HOF years like you imply. I just threw his name out as one of the better guys he played with wich is true.

Bringing up jr rider who avereged single digits and dint even make the playoff roster or ac green who was damn near 40 or mitch richmond who was on his last tank of gas and got like 5ppg is pretty weak and you know that.

People always remember the good sides of players in hindsite. People forget that the LA media nicknamed him Tragic Johnson at one point for his poor play in the playoffs. People forget that he lost almost as mant times in the finals as he won(5 wins 4 losses). Its easy to only remember the good times while kobe is rtight in front of our eyes getting nit picked for every singel game he doesnt play great.

One last thing that i get tired of hearing on here and not neceassarily from you is how he didnt win with gary and malone. Malone was injured in the finals. He was great in the first 3 rounds but hurt his back in the finals missed one game and played shit the rest the time while rasheed lit him up. It was huge news back then how his back kept him from playing well and even he said he would have come back the next year if he could but the injury didnt let him.

ANyways, not trying to make this a big back and forth.