This topic contains 102 replies, has 20 voices, and was last updated by AvatarAvatar dolla130 12 years, 11 months ago.

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  • #27637
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    Vivid5292
    Participant

    First & foremost, I’m tired of all these arguments against Derrick Rose for being the 2010-2011 MVP. Most of the counter arguments talk about "stats" and how that’s the highest measure for judging whether or not you’re the MVP. If that is the case, let me see any of you or any idiots like John Hollinger, make a case for Kevin Love to be the MVP. I DARE you. Anyways, it’s true that Rose may not be better than some of the other canadaites statiscally, but it doesn’t change the fact that the Chicago Bulls are first in the Eastern conference and could make a run for the best record in the league with him as their leader in only his 3rd year, adding that they have a great record when playing the other top teams in the league. It also doesn’t change the fact that without Rose’s stellar play, the Bulls would not be in position to be considered the NBA’s best team.

    However, I’m giving anybody who disagrees with Rose being the 2010-2011 MVP a chance to state why they don’t think he should win or why somebody else should win. Give me/other basketball fans your BEST arguement. Don’t come at this topic with weak points and/or without any supporting evidence because you will get shut down and proved otherwise. 

    Let the game begin…..

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  • #517324
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    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    It depends on what you look at. I personally feel LeBron James should get more love, but I think Rose will win it.

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  • #517325
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    SwatLakeCity
    Participant

     He’s my vote. I’ve been convinced of him being the MVP for a long time. Much better candidate then Dwade, Lebron, Dirk, Timmy D., Blake Griffen (debatable but its been awhile since a rookie wins the MVP, I think the last one was Timmy D.), Kobe, STAT, or the worst MVP candidate, Melo. 

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  • #517332
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    bennydabull
    Participant

    ^What?

    Wait, what?

    OP, I agree with you. Though the case for Dwight Howard as MVP is pretty strong as well, I gotta give my vote for the hometown kid, especially if the Bulls end up staying at #1 in the East.

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  • #517349
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    llperez

    i would put rose 3rd behind kobe and lebron. I just think those guys are better players.

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  • #517350
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    DanEboy
    Participant

    They are better players…..but Rose is out playing them this season.

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  • #517352
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    But how is he out playing them? That’s my question. I personally wrote yesterday Kobe is RUNNING back into the mix for the MVP.

    LeBron is still putting up the best numbers of the three, and he had to make a huge adjustment this offseason going to Miami.

    My personal vote is

    • James
    • Bryant
    • Rose
    • Howard

    But Derrick Rose has been the story of the season, thus he will win it.

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    • #517361
      AvatarAvatar
      Vivid5292
      Participant

      I clearly asked for ppl to come into this with an actual arguement and you do the exact opposite. You said "you feel like Lebron should win". Come on now…what is that? That’s weak.  & then you have the nerve to say that Lebron had to make a huge adjustment? Get outta here with that mess. The man came into the season knowing that he would be playing with one of the top 5 players in the league. & then a good player in Bosh. What kind of "huge" adjustment is that. If anything, he’s playing the same way he did last year. But, his job is much more easier seeing as those he has 2 reliable players that can finish & take the load off of him. I agree that nobody is "out playing" anybody but to only say that he is putting up the best numbers which is why he is MVP? That’s wack. His impact isn’t the same for this Heat team. If anything, this Heat team is underachieving. Come on now. Don’t come onto this thread if you gonna post some weak mess like that. Make an actual arguement or take a seat and stay out.

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  • #517358
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    llperez

    i dont think rose is out playing them. The only category rose has an advantage is assists. Lebon and kobe are better defenders and having better seasons imo.

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  • #517359
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    llperez

    rose is the best story of the season and that tilts the award in his favor. Politics and media hype always play too big a role in mvp voting.

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  • #517364
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    DanEboy
    Participant

    Rose is finishing games in the 4th quater by himself… completely taking over games. He doesn’t have guys like Wade, Bosh, Gasol and Odom to bail him out. Boozer helps some, but lately, Rose has been putting teams away.

    You guys should watch him play more often. There is no way you guys can honestly say you have watched him over the past month and still disagree.

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  • #517367
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    Malik-Universal
    Participant

    how is lebron the mvp or even kobe???

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  • #517369
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i was listenign to espn radio a few days ago talking about the mvp race, and the guy was tearing rose apart. Not that i need a radio guy to tell me who the mvp is. BUt i wish i had some of the stats he brought up. One of the stats was comparing how the bulls do without rose on the court compared to how the heat, lakers and magic do without lebron, kobe and dwight and its not even close. The bulls lose very little and still outscore opponents per 100 possesions without rose on the court. The other 3 teams fall off considerably and more then double the negative scoring output per 100 possesions that the bulls lose without rose.

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  • #517370
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    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    But you said in your original post that this is a post to state why you don’t think Rose should win.

    I think LeBron James has had a better season. For one, the numbers compared, LeBron has better number numbers. LeBron went from a team where he was the 1st and 2nd option, to a team where he played conventional and still had to make sure Wade and Bosh get the ball, being the best "point guard" on the team. I guess being 2nd in the East is underachiveing huh? He’s still going with 26-7-7 with 1.5 steals on a team that had to change up everything WITH a weak bench. Say what you want, I think he’s been the best player in the NBA this season.

    The main reason why Rose is going to win MVP is because everyone fell in love with the story. Rose is great, I think he’s a top 5 player in the NBA and wrote so in the past, but that Chicago team isn’t as good as people think, he has talent in Boozer and Noah and it’s funny how people act as if he’s doing it all alone. He’s not a great defender either, so being the "best" player is flawed.  He had 30-10 last night, but Bayless had 26-8.

     

     

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  • #517371
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    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Don’t come onto this thread if you gonna post some weak mess like that. Make an actual arguement or take a seat and stay out.

     

    My man, you got 21 posts. Calm down.

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  • #517372
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    llperez

    vivid, you dont understand basketball if you dont think lebron had to make a huge adjustment by leanring to play witrh another ball dominant wing. GO back and check the cavs rosters the past 2 seasons and compare with the bulls rsoter this season and then compare the teams records and the stats between lebron and rose. Everything sides towards lebron if you do that, so bringing up how lebron has not had to make huge adjustments and his job is much easier is flawed.

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  • #517381
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    FastAndFurious
    Participant

    I agree, I still think it’s Lebron he is on a team with the 2nd best shooting guard in the NBA who also is a top 5 player in the league and who wants the ball just as much as Lebron, and LBJ still puts up great numbers, not to mention Bosh is a top 3-5 PF and needs his touches as well too.

     

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  • #517382
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    DanEboy
    Participant

    This is a no win argument anyway. I am from Chicago, LL is a Laker fan and BKKnicks is a Knick fan and a LeBron fan. And yes, he has Boozer and Noah, although combined they have missed over 60 games. They aren’t exactly Wade, Bosh, Gasol and Odom, all of whom have been relatively healthy.

    And what exactly is this ‘story’ that everyone fell in love with?

    The story about how he is the leader of the best team in the East? A conference where the Heat and Celtics were supposed to battle for the top spot?

    The story of him averaging 25pts and 8ast? Something only like 4 other guys have done in the league…ever? And doing it at age 22 no less.

    Or the story of how you can actually argue his case for the MIP award as well. His 3’s went from 16 last year to well over 100 this season. His scoring went up by 5 points while his assists also went up by 2. His FT shooting went from 77% to 86% while his attempts have gone up by 2.5 per game. He has improved his steals from 57 last year to 84 this season and his blocks have gone from 27 last year to 45 so far. He has improved in every single category..but mostly his confidence has improved.

     

     

     

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    • #517405
      AvatarAvatar
      Vivid5292
      Participant

      I give credit to you DanEboy. You actually stuck to the point of the thread. You stated an actual arguement. Props to perez. You actually got into it & brought up some facts. I respect. BKknicks fan? I think you should stop. You talk about 21 posts? Boy you got damn never over 1000 of them & you’re still in the negatives. You not seeing any points any time soon, so don’t criticize me. I’ve been on this site for over 2 years now. It’s people like you that made me even make an account, so I could knock some sense into your heads.

      Its underachieving to come into the season showing off and boasting about how you formed a super team and having a petty parade about it, and then have that record. & its not even so much the record, but rather, the fact as to how they couldn’t even beat some of the best teams in the league with exception to the Lakers. Thats underachieving. I don’t care how many chemistry issues they had or have. There’s no reason a team like that should lose to the cleveland cavaliers, under any circumstances.  That’s just one of example of how underachieving this team has been. If you need any more reasons, let me know "my man"

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  • #517389
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    llperez

    you’re right its a no win situation. But you have to admit rose compared to kobe and lebron is the best story from the media. Young humble kid turns team around or lebron with a an underachieving team(althoguh not lebrons fault) going for his 3rd straight or kobe playing with the most talented roster top to bottom but the team sleep walks half the season(not kobes fault) all fighting for recognition. Kobe and lebron are not doing anything they havent been doing for years, rose is having a breakout year and is the fresh new face. He drops 30 and its news. Kobe or lebron drop 30 and no one gives it much thought. Bulls, heat and lakers all very close in the standings, but if you just listened to the media you would think the lakers and heat were miles behind the bulls.

    Oh well, rose will most likely win and kobe will have to settle for the mvp award given out in june.

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  • #517391
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    DanEboy
    Participant

    And another thing….damnit!

    LeBron is the most gifted player in the league…maybe ever. How come I hardly see him taking over games down the stretch? Wade usually has to. LeBron doesn’t seem like much of a leader to me. And also, how come you hardly ever, if ever, hear LeBron’s or Kobe’s teammates talking highly of them?

    I would be willing to bet if you switched Rose with either LeBron or Kobe on the Bulls, they wouldn’t have the record they do. They may be better players..right now…but I don’t think they command the respect from their teammates that Rose already does. The Bulls seem to play with another kind of energy this season and it is a direct reflection of Rose.

    More than just stats guys.

    Have at it.

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  • #517392
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    wait, kobe and lebron dont get praise from teamates? Now i know you are just making that one up from no where. I live and so cal and kobe gets love non stop from his teammates.

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  • #517394
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    DanEboy
    Participant

    I never hear it anywhere. Could be on local news, but I never hear it much in the national media. Just my opinion and what I hear.

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  • #517396
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    llperez

    "i never hear it in the national media"

    exactly

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  • #517398
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    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    My opinion: The story of the Chicago born boy, leading Chicago to a high eastern conference seed. Being the best of the young guns and taking point guards and eating them for lunch. Single handedly bringing Chicago back in games ( early season Detroit) and proving himself against veterans ( friday night Los Angeles game). The fact he (along with the city) was shun by LeBron and Wade to form a super team in Miami, settling for Boozer and Rose making the leap from a nice, very nice young player to (what I believe) is a top 5 player in the league.

    That’s the story for me.

    Let’s not forget everyone overrating the fact they were a good team last year. They were actually a good team, pretty good last year.

    Just my opinion: LeBron should be MVP

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  • #517400
    AvatarAvatar
    DanEboy
    Participant

    Yeah, they won 41 games and were the 8th seed. Now they are the #1 seed and on pace for 60 wins… one year later.

    They are miles ahead of last season.

    Miami, by the way, was a 5th seed and won 47 games.

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  • #517401
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    DanEboy
    Participant

    Also, that story you wrote sounds like an MVP. You also forgot how the Bulls swept the Heat 3-0 this season.

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  • #517403
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    B-ball fan
    Participant

     He may not have the ball in his hands as much or score like Rose or make as good a story or be on as good a tema, but he means more to his team than Derrick Rose.  Rose is no better than an average defender, but the Bulls are the best defensive team in the league.  That is why they are so great.  The Bulls are a slightly above average offensive team.  Without Rose, they would be a very poor offensive team, but their defense would still be the best in the league and they still could have a shot at the playoffs.  

    The Magic may not even have a single average or above average defender besides Howard, but they are the 4th best defensive team in the league.  Howard is also extremely important to the Magic, as he is their only good post scorer, offensive rebounder, or pick and roll threat.  Without him, they wouldn’t be able to get as many open threes.  The Magic may be the second worst team in the league if they lost Howard.

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  • #517406
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    FastAndFurious
    Participant

    So if thats the case, should Russell Westbrook be in contention for MVP as well?

    His numbers have inflated big time as well him and rose actually have the same stats.

    Derrick Rose:

    25.1 PPG

    4.2 RPG

    7.9 APG

    1.1 SPG

    44% FG

    85% FT

    33% 3PT

    3.4 TO’s

    37.5 MPG

     

    Russell Westbrook:

    21.8 PPG

    4.6 RPG

    8.3 APG

    1.8 SPG

    44% FG

    83 % FT

    33% 3

    3.9 TO’s

    34.9 MPG

    Also with Westbrooks points per game going up 5 as well……

    I understand Rose is more valuable to his team and he gets to prove it on a nightly basis, but when Durant ha sat out some games Westbrook showed he can def play and lead a team to wins on his own, like when he tore the celtics up for 31, 5 and 4 with the win.

    I’m not saying Westbrook should MVP in any means even tho he is my favorite player in the NBA, but Westbrook is basically having the same season Rose is having, but gets overshawdowed becasue he plays with Durant.

    Let’s not forget Boozer is an All-Star caliber player and will be again once he is healthy, and I think Joakim will be making an apperance shortly. I just dont like how the media and people on this board make it seem like Rose is the clear cut winner, when in all actuality Dwight Howard affects the game more than ANYONE in the NBA for the simple fact he DOMINATES both ends of the floor and he might not even finish top 3 for the voting….Rose,Lebron,Kobe

    I honestly think Lebron is still the MVP of the NBA and should win it, but that’s another story.

     

     

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  • #517407
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    DanEboy
    Participant

    The Bulls would be fucked without Rose….if you think otherwise, you are ridiculous.

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  • #517410
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    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Yeah, they won 41 games and were the 8th seed. Now they are the #1 seed and on pace for 60 wins… one year later.

    You’re forgetting the part where they gave up Salmons AND Thomas for nothing thinking they were getting LeBron James. Ironic as well because both Milwaukee and Charlotte jumped over Chicago for the 6th and 7th spots.

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    • #517493
      AvatarAvatar
      HeelsFan
      Participant

      Before the trade deadline and giving those two away the Bulls were not in a better position. . .

       

       

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  • #517413
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    DanEboy
    Participant

    Westbrook has Durant to take some of the pressure off. Rose is the main guy. I am not saying Westbrook can’t be that guy, but Rose is right now.

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  • #517414
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    DanEboy
    Participant

    Yeah well, what does that have to do with anything? Salmons is proving this season that he isn’t that good. And Tyrus Thomas is a cancer.I don’t understand your argument there.

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  • #517416
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    BKknicks fan? I think you should stop.

    – I think I’m going to continue.

    You talk about 21 posts? Boy you got damn never over 1000 of them & you’re still in the negatives.

    – I guess, because noone with negative points are smart huh?

    You not seeing any points any time soon, so don’t criticize me. I’ve been on this site for over 2 years now. It’s people like you that made me even make an account, so I could knock some sense into your heads.

    – If you been on the site 2 years now….where you been? Says your account was made Feb 2011.

    Its underachieving to come into the season showing off and boasting about how you formed a super team and having a petty parade about it, and then have that record. & its not even so much the record, but rather, the fact as to how they couldn’t even beat some of the best teams in the league with exception to the Lakers. Thats underachieving. I don’t care how many chemistry issues they had or have. There’s no reason a team like that should lose to the cleveland cavaliers, under any circumstances. That’s just one of example of how underachieving this team has been. If you need any more reasons, let me know "my man"

    • – So any team that boasts and wins 50 is underachiving? Oh, my bad. Didn’t know that.
    • -So any team that finishes 2nd in the conference is underachiving? Oh my bad, didn’t know that
    • – So any team that finishes 2nd with 50 wins without a point guard, a strong lost post player OR bench is underachiving? Oh my bad didn’t know

    Come on man. I come with a idea, you try to attack me. Then ppl wonder why I play the jerk, because people like this guy.

     

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  • #517418
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Im going to look at this the opposite way…why these other guys are not Derrick Rose.

     

    1. Kobe. Heres the difference. The Lakers were the No.1 team a year ago, they played the first half of the season in mediocrity by the standards of good teams. They have been a force since the break, but give me a full season. Thats what D Rose has done. Kobe was not killing fools in December. He was getting blown out by the Heatles on Christmas in his house. Also, arguing a player whose team was overwealmingly expected to be the No.1 team in the west and is actually No.2, compound it with the fact he plays with a legit all star and 2 other players that people feel are one of a kind time difference makers, and he doesnt stand a chance.

    2. Lebron. Foolish, really. The fact the Heat are below the Bulls in the standings and are 0-3 vs the Bulls is reason enough to disqualify Lebron. The Heat were the No.5 seed last year, added Lebron and Bosh and are now No.2. The Bulls were the 8 seed, added Boozer and 3 bad shooting guards and are the No.1 The difference? Rose has taken his game to another level while Lebron has actually been worse than he was a year ago. One year ago, if you said LBJ and Wade were going to be on the same team, and D Rose was going to lead his team to a better record than their team, theres no way you would have argued for LBJ the way you are now.

    3. Dwight Howard. I understand his value to his team which is about equal to Rose’s. I understand hes a premier defender, and Rose is not. However, Orlando is another team that has actually gone down from last season. I dont see how a team gets worse, lowers its seed, and no real experts are even considering them a contender, and the guy get the MVP. But beyond that, Bill Simmons brought up the most important point. Howard is a stat stuffer who loves to block shots out of bounds for stats and do anything to look good on paper. Rose cares about 1 thing. Winning. And most experts have seen this, and have understood why Rose is the clear cut front runner. His stats are irrelevant, because hes playing to win, not for stats. And more importantly, Howard is an absolute non factor in crunch time. While Rose has time and time again lead the Bulls in the final 2 minutes, Howard defers to mediocrity such as Hedu Turkoglu and Jameer Nelson for primetime shots.

    The other point Simmons makes, and sums it up is that Rose shouldnt be rememberd as "The guy whose MVP candidacy got crapped on by the entire blogosphere because his plus/minus and true shooting percentage weren’t quite good enough." This is true. Enjoy Rose’s season. Dont let foolish stats that 10 years ago didnt exist tell you otherwise.

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  • #517421
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Yeah well, what does that have to do with anything? Salmons is proving this season that he isn’t that good. And Tyrus Thomas is a cancer.I don’t understand your argument there.

     

    My point is that team would have been a 6th seed, if they didn’t decided to throw both those players away for a chance at 2 star players. Doing that, they struggled, thus everyone thinking they were a bad team. Salmons wasn’t bad last season, nor was Thomas. Both showed they played well in contract years, but Chicago wanted Bron, so they moved them and struggled.

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  • #517422
    AvatarAvatar
    DanEboy
    Participant

    It is underachieving when you dance around the stage holding up 7 fingers like a bunch of jackasses.

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  • #517423
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    The fact the Heat are below the Bulls in the standings and are 0-3 vs the Bulls is reason enough to disqualify Lebron.

     

    On that note….I’m outta here.

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  • #517425
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Y’all still hate LeBron huh?

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  • #517426
    AvatarAvatar
    DanEboy
    Participant

    When was Tyrus Thomas good? He had a couple of decent games but mostly was a guy who had no idea of spacing, took awful shots and just messed up the overall flow of games. They got rid of him because they were tired of his shi.t. It had nothing to do with Bron.

     

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  • #517427
    AvatarAvatar
    Vivid5292
    Participant

    thank you for giving a case for Dwight. I agree with you on a lot of what you said, but much of you’re arguement is contributing to that the fact that Dwight Howard should win the Defensive Player of the year award & not the MVP.

    Yes, he has been better this year offensively and has been big for the Magic, but what’s so different about what he’s doing this year, compared to the past 2 years where he did the same thing defensively and the Magic had better teams and more success then? He is getting more touches offensively which explains his point increase and also the hard work he put in over the summer. But again, the stats aren’t far off..

    Look

    Pts. 20.6  Rpg. 14.2  Blks 2.1  Stls. 0.9  Def Rating 99 – 2007-2008

    Pts. 20.6  Rpg. 13.8  Blks 2.9  Stls. 1.0  Def Rating 95 – 2008-2009

    Pts. 18.3  Rpg. 13.2  Blks 2.8  Stls. 0.9  Def Rating 95 – 2009-2010

    Pts. 23.1  Rpg. 14.2  Blks 2.4  Stls. 1.3  Def Rating 94 – 2010-2011

    Whats the difference??

                         

     

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  • #517428
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    My point is that team would have been a 6th seed, if they didn’t decided to throw both those players away for a chance at 2 star players. Doing that, they struggled, thus everyone thinking they were a bad team. Salmons wasn’t bad last season, nor was Thomas. Both showed they played well in contract years, but Chicago wanted Bron, so they moved them and struggled.

    —————–

    So If they were the 6 seed, that would have totally exposed D Rose this season as someone who did not improve his game at all.

    You are the only person on this website with more negative points than me…and theres a reason why, you are an idiot. Lebron and Rose’s stats are similar. Hence why team record and Head to head are just icing on Rose’s cake for why hes been better than LBJ this year.

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  • #517429
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    DanEboy
    Participant

    Come again….bring ammo next time.

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  • #517430
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    FastAndFurious
    Participant

    I understand where you coming from, but Rose has All-Star caliber players tho.

    Westbrook is also in the West, but im not taking anything away from Rose, dude is a beast no question, I’m just saying Westbrook is having the same exact identical season as Rose and has shown when by himself he can do the exact same things as Rose, but doesn’t get the same type of Love.

    Like some people still say he isn’t a top 5 PG…..like are you serious…Westbrook is top 3 PG’s in the NBA whether you think it or not.

    I truely believe he is 1B while Rose is 1A but that’s just my opinion

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  • #517431
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Rose 25 PPG, 8 APG

    Lebron 26.5 PPG, 7.5 APG

    Its not that different…hence why team record/not playing with Wade should count for sometihng.

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  • #517433
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    youngdave-

    If Westbrook was having an identitcal season to Rose, then his team would be at least 56-20, not discounting the fact he plays with the best scorer in the league. If Rose and Durant were playing together, that team would be the odds on favorite to win the next 5 titles.

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  • #517434
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    You sure? Why not look it up…..

    ————

    I already posted them…before you could even come up with tihs foolish rebuttal.

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  • #517432
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    You are the only person on this website with more negative points than me…and theres a reason why, you are an idiot.

    I mean, I guess so.

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  • #517435
    AvatarAvatar
    FastAndFurious
    Participant

    How has Lebron gotten worst? Haha dude may be a jackass at times, but Lebron is the BEST player in the NBA, he may not win MVP but you ask anybody who they would start their franchise with I bet you it’s Lebron.

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  • #517437
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    LeBron James: 26.6, 7.5, 7.0, 1.5, 50%, 33%

    Derrick Rose: 25.1, 4.2, 7.9, 1.1, 44%, 33%

     

    So…..it’s a lock that he’s had a better season? Let’s not even mention Miami is only 2 games back.

                

     

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  • #517438
    AvatarAvatar
    DanEboy
    Participant

    Let’s compare…

    Rose- 25.2Pts 4.2reb 7.9ast 3.5to 1.1stl 0.6blk 44%FG 1.6 3’s 34% 86%FT

    Bron- 26.6pts 7.5reb 7.0ast 3.5to 1.5stl 0.6blk 51%FG 1.2 3’s 33% 76%FT

    All except reb and FG% are very similar, if not leaning in Rose’s favor. Bron is 5 inches taller which obviously allows him to get more rebounds and attack the rim easier to get high percentage buckets.

     

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  • #517440
    AvatarAvatar
    FastAndFurious
    Participant

    you are silly and whoever gave you those plus points are silly as well….

    You do realize Rose play’s in the East and in the WEAKEST division in the East at that(Chicago,Indiana,Detroit,Chicago,Milwaukee)

    While Westbrook plays in the West and in a strong Division that has 3 playoff teams right now as we speak

    So yall can kill it with the records noise

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  • #517441
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Let’s not forget the fact James switched teams and had to make a transition…..

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  • #517442
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    BKKnicks- So if MJ went 18-38, scored 48 points, and Patrick Ewing went 12-18, had 29 points, and the Bulls won, Ewing had the better game because his shooting percentage is better, right?

    Its a joke. %%%%’s are the only thing Rose has against him. Which is what happens when you are being double teamed the entire game, are the only player that can create his own shot on his team, and doubles as playmaker and scorer, ANDDDD guards the toher team’s primary ballhandler. Its not easy to shoot a high percentage.

    Although, its not like Lebron’s situation is different, its not like he plays with a mega star that forces the other team to not double LBJ, or plays with one of the top 3 players at creating there own shot in the entire league, or a 20-10 big man, or anything like that….

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  • #517444
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    you are silly and whoever gave you those plus points are silly as well….

    You do realize Rose play’s in the East and in the WEAKEST division in the East at that(Chicago,Indiana,Detroit,Chicago,Milwaukee)

    While Westbrook plays in the West and in a strong Division that has 3 playoff teams right now as we speak

    So yall can kill it with the records noise

    —————

    Look up the Bulls record vs the Western Conference, and the Bulls record vs +.500 teams, and then see how "silly" your argument truly is.

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  • #517445
    AvatarAvatar
    DanEboy
    Participant

    The Bulls are 22-7 (.759) against the western conference. The Thunder are 28-19 (.596)

    sorry youngdave, that argument is weaksauce.

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  • #517446
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Let’s not forget the fact James switched teams and had to make a transition…..

    —————-

    Its Rose’s fault Lebron punkd out on Cleveland and went to Miami? LBJ should get the benefit of the doubt for fleeing to play with a team he thought could win "eight titles"????

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  • #517447
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    BKKnicks- So if MJ went 18-38, scored 48 points, and Patrick Ewing went 12-18, had 29 points, and the Bulls won, Ewing had the better game because his shooting percentage is better, right?

    Who said that?

    Although, its not like Lebron’s situation is different, its not like he plays with a mega star that forces the other team to not double LBJ, or plays with one of the top 3 players at creating there own shot in the entire league, or a 20-10 big man, or anything like that….

    Not like Wade AND James need the ball in thier hands to be truly effective, yet LeBron still maintained his numbers. Nah not at all.

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  • #517450
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    He maintained his numbers? Really? Look at PPG, APG, RPG, and W-L from last year and show any of that was "maintained". And explain how playing with D Wade is harder than playing with the losers on Cleveland.

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  • #517451
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Noone said it was Rose’s fault so what are you talking about?

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  • #517452
    AvatarAvatar
    FastAndFurious
    Participant

    The Bulls are 56-20 playing in the weakest division in the EAST while the Thunder are 50-26 playing in the West….do you honestly believe the Bulls would have that good of record playing in the West? No they wouldn’t and you know it, they would be a playoff team but they would not be the #1 team in the West.

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  • #517453
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    He maintained his numbers? Really? Look at PPG, APG, RPG, and W-L from last year and show any of that was "maintained". And explain how playing with D Wade is harder than playing with the losers on Cleveland.

    He fell 5 points playing with Bosh and Wade. The Heat had no bench or any legit post players. So what are you talking about?

    Like I said before, 3 players, 2 who thrived with the ball in thier hands. It was a transitation.

    Like I said, you be hating man.

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  • #517454
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Noone said it was Rose’s fault so what are you talking about?

    —————

    So how is it relevent? If Rose has a better year than lebron, it shouldnt matter Lebron switched teams. That was by choice. Its what has Rose and lebron done this year. It has nothing to do with making a transition. if that hurt Lebron’s stats then he shouldnt have done it.

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  • #517455
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    The Bulls are 56-20 playing in the weakest division in the EAST

     

    That’s a great point. Didn’t even think of it.

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  • #517456
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    transition= not relevent to MVP race. This is most valuable player. not most valuable transiton.

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  • #517458
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    So how is it relevent? If Rose has a better year than lebron, it shouldnt matter Lebron switched teams. That was by choice. Its what has Rose and lebron done this year. It has nothing to do with making a transition. if that hurt Lebron’s stats then he shouldnt have done it.

     

    No, but when focusing on each MVP candidate, you have to take everything in for each player. For LeBron, I factor in him going to Miami and making a transition and that’s a extra point for him from me when I’m looking at a MVP.

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  • #517459
    AvatarAvatar
    DanEboy
    Participant

    youngdave…..you are making yourself look silier by the comment. Again, the Bulls are 22-7 against the west while the Thunder are 28-19.

    They have beat up the west this year.

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  • #517460
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    That’s a great point. Didn’t even think of it.

    They are 27-7 Vs the West and 22-12 vs +.500 teams. So no, its actually a horrible point.

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  • #517461
    AvatarAvatar
    FastAndFurious
    Participant

    LOL yall are so funny only 8 of those 22 wins are against teams that are going to the playoffs like I said kill it seriously he’s stacked up those wins against clippers,kings,rockets,utah,golden state, so like I said kill it

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  • #517462
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    No, but when focusing on each MVP candidate, you have to take everything in for each player. For LeBron, I factor in him going to Miami and making a transition and that’s a extra point for him from me when I’m looking at a MVP.

    ————

    Welll then you are just stupid. How about the way Rose has changed his game? How bout the fact Noah has played in half there games, and outside Deng and Gibson, the rest of his team including his coach is new?

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  • #517464
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    LOL yall are so funny only 8 of those 22 wins are against teams that are going to the playoffs like I said kill it seriously he’s stacked up those wins against clippers,kings,rockets,utah,golden state, so like I said kill it

    ————–

    You are funny for bringing a player whose the 2nd best player on a 4 seed into an MVP argument.

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  • #517465
    AvatarAvatar
    Vivid5292
    Participant

    You make a good point about Westbrook, but if you honestly want to compare Rose to Westbrook then you’re gonna have to consider their situations. Some said switch Rose with Westbrook and you’re looking at Rose & Durant contending for 5 future title. Thats a great look at the situation.
     

    Rose’s numbers come as a result of his very own production. He creates his own shots & most of his own opportunities. I’m not saying that Westbrook doesn’t, but its questionable since he has one of the best scorers of the league as his running mate. Rose has Keith Bogans, Ronnie Brewer & Kyle Korver. You make the comparison. Come on, its really easy..

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  • #517468
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Welll then you are just stupid. How about the way Rose has changed his game? How bout the fact Noah has played in half there games, and outside Deng and Gibson, the rest of his team including his coach is new?

     

    This is why noone respects your basketball opinion. I never saw anyone agree with you….once.

    Anyway, I never said Rose didn’t do things to get points in my MVP voting either. New teammates are different then going to a new city. Rose was still the focal point of the offense, there were games were LeBron wasn’t the guy in the game for Miami. But you don’t see that, because you hate LeBron.

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  • #517470
    AvatarAvatar
    Mkadoza
    Participant

     Dwight Howard should be MVP. And to me it isnt really close. 1, from a statistical standpoint he ranks in the top 3 in blocks, field goal percentage, and rebounds. He is by far teh most disruptive defensive player in the league. His midrange game, footwork, and low post comfort level as a whole has hit an all time high. He carries quite possible the worst front court in the NBA if he wasnt on it. Really, if Howard wasn’t on the Magic, the Magic would be the Knicks last year… He’s maintained, even improved, with roster turnover, injuries, and unbalanced officiating. And yet and still they are still a three to make the Finals every year, because of this man.  And its not like Rose is our scoring him by a wide margin. Its two points. The Bulls are deeper and stronger at every position except center, so its not like the Bulls are a one man team. Howard is teh only reason the Magic are in the playoff, and championship hunt every year, and this is by far his best year. No one is more valuable to his team than Dwight. IN MY OPINION.

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  • #517469
    AvatarAvatar
    DanEboy
    Participant

    Bulls against the top 8 teams in the west-11-5

    Thunder against the top 8 teams in the west-9-13

    Go home youngdave.

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  • #517475
    AvatarAvatar
    Steroid
    Participant

    I don’t even see why you guys argue about it. No one will win. You might as well leave the stats out against Rose because stats don’t tell the whole story or you haven’t seen him play if you do, but feel free to bring them if it helps your argument for him. Rose will win the MVP. What is even the criteria to win the MVP anyway? Does anyone have a clue?

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  • #517479
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i just want to say if rose does win congrats to him. I dont have anything against him and i do think its very close. My problem isnt so much with him winning as it is with how the award is always decided way topo early by the media and the media allows the story and the underdog guy to get an advantage. This has always been the case.

    Another example is jason kidd. In 2002 he finished a very close 2nd in mvp voting behind a prime tim duncan becasue he tunred the lowly nets franchise around and eventually helped them, win the east. The very next season his points incresed by 4ppg his fg% increased and he had a higher per and played a flat out better season and still led the nets to win the east. Final result was finishing 9th in mvp voting and barely even making the top 10 at all behind guys like ben wallace. Only difference from one season to the next was the story wasnt as good. WHy isnt durnat getting the same mvp love he got last season? Becasue the story isnt as good. Why did nash win in 2005 when he had at least 3 seasons that were better both in dallas and phoenix where he didnt win mvp? Becasue that year he turned the suns around and it made a great story.

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  • #517480
    AvatarAvatar
    Mkadoza
    Participant

     There is no criteria for MVP… thats the problem.

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  • #517485
    AvatarAvatar
    Steroid
    Participant

    I don’t have a problem with Rose either. It’s just that people are really gung-ho about the guy… He’s having a breakout year and great story, but there are guys who’ve been doing what he’s doing for years and more, and they don’t get the same backing.

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  • #517487
    AvatarAvatar
    Mkadoza
    Participant

     Absolutely Roid… I was as big a Rose supporter as anyone, but looking objectively, this race isnt as one sided as some people make it out to be.

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  • #517495
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i was just checking through the history of mvp voting, and in 2006 the year kobe averaged 35.5ppg and was first team defense and carried the sorry lakers to 45 wins, he finished 4th despite hav ing the second most 1st place votes. of the 125 media memebers who had a vote, 23 did not vote for kobe at all in their top 5. FUcking ridiculous.

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  • #517496
    AvatarAvatar
    andxxx
    Participant
  • #517500
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

    I can’t see anyone but Rose, LeBron and Dwight getting much consideration. Maybe Chris Paul or Dirk I guess.

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  • #517501
    AvatarAvatar
    Michael.S.
    Participant

    I think Rose is the MVP by a little bit but….

    Daneboy

    "LeBron is the most gifted player in the league…maybe ever. How come I hardly see him taking over games down the stretch? Wade usually has to. LeBron doesn’t seem like much of a leader to me. And also, how come you hardly ever, if ever, hear LeBron’s or Kobe’s teammates talking highly of them?

    I would be willing to bet if you switched Rose with either LeBron or Kobe on the Bulls, they wouldn’t have the record they do. They may be better players..right now…but I don’t think they command the respect from their teammates that Rose already does. The Bulls seem to play with another kind of energy this season and it is a direct reflection of Rose."

    You have got to be kidding me with this stuff.

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  • #517502
    AvatarAvatar
    Michael.S.
    Participant

    But, come on guys…Does MVP really matter? Lets see who Finals MVP is.

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  • #517503
    AvatarAvatar
    JimmeredYaWabafet
    Participant

     Mike Bibby

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  • #517508
    AvatarAvatar
    DanEboy
    Participant

    Again, Lemon, you are the biggest Bron fan on here so I take your comments with a grain of salt as I am sure most people take mine about Rose.

    I will say this though, this city hasn’t been as excited about basketball since MJ left. That isn’t really saying much but he has this city jumping again.

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  • #517509
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    you mean the city wasnt jumping about the eddy curry /jamal crawford era?

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  • #517510
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    I support LeBron alot too, but I’m probably one of the main people who think highly of Rose. I stated 3 weeks into the season, he was one of my top 5 players in the entire league.

     

    Even though I was making the case for LeBron, I still expect Rose to win it, and honestly, he’s played well and if he won it, I wouldn’t be mad.

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  • #517511
    AvatarAvatar
    omphalos
    Participant

    First up, I’ll say that Rose is my candidate for MVP, but that’s not really why I’m posting. 

    Just wanted to draw attention to a pet peeve of mine; when people use similar seasons from the same player as examples of why the story matters. For example, people saying Nash had better seasons that the ones where he won. But the whole point is, even if he performed best outside of the years he won, it was only in those two years that he outperformed the others. You can’t look at a player’s season and only compare it to his other seasons, you need to consider the context. It’s not just the story, it’s the circumstances of that particular season.

    The only exception to this is Kobe Bryant, who clearly should have won in 2006, but was punished for off-court shenanigans.

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  • #517515
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    oomphalos, then how do you explain the other example i used where json kidd almost beat a prime duncan, then had most his stats improve the next year and he finished 9th? You think him playing better he drops from best in the league in many peoples eyes to barely top 10 was all about other players improving?

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  • #517526
    AvatarAvatar
    omphalos
    Participant

    Dude, that’s exactly what I’m talking about, maybe the year he almost beat a prime Duncan he had the second best year, but everyone stepped up their game more than him the next year? Besides, Duncan won it the next year afterwards, and he had a career high in rebounds that year. You can’t just say "he came close one year, got better, so should win it", because the relative contributions of the other team’s players change. Kidd also lost another three games that year despite his personal increase, surely that should be a factor in his drop too? Also, where was the story with Duncan in his second MVP season? Sorry man, I don’t mean to attack you personally, but I see it all the time and it frustrates me is all.

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  • #517531
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i disagree. No offense, but if you dont think stories/politics/favoritism plays a role in how the media covers and eventually votes for the mvp, we disagree completely. Rose might very well deserve the mvp this year, but if you just went by the media you would think guys like lebron and kobe are in roses dust. It happens on a regular basis. Shoot, i’ve seen darrell armstrong get votes for MVP. GO back and tell me the year the little 6 foot overachieving darrel armstrong was a top 5 player in the NBA?

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  • #517535
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

    It doesn’t matter if you’re a top 5 player in the NBA. It matters about the type of season your having and how valuable you are to your team.

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  • #517539
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    ANd i dont feel voters consistently vote for the most valuable guy who is having the best season which is what im saying. They allow other things to effect their voting.

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  • #517540
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

    I don’t disagree with that.

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  • #517550
    AvatarAvatar
    Michael.S.
    Participant

    So LeBrons value went down from the last two seasons where he was MVP or Most Valuable Player?

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  • #517551
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

    Is that referring to me?

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  • #517553
    AvatarAvatar
    Michael.S.
    Participant

    No, just in general.

    I don’t see how Rose is more valuable than LeBron and not even nearly as good but I do think he is having the best season…I just don’t get the "value" part.

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  • #517609
    AvatarAvatar
    omphalos
    Participant

    Okay, I’ll have a crack at explaining why I think Lebron went down in value; in Cleveland, he helped the team be more than the sum of it’s parts through leadership and forced accountability as franchise player, in Miami the Big 3 are at best equal to, but certainly not greater than the sum of their parts. Each one has a reduced role from their franchise player days, even if the numbers don’t reveal this. Lebron in particular has changed from first option on offence to a facilitator and secondary scorer ala Pippen. Thus, his value is lessened because he’s no longer getting those rebounds and assists while also being first option on offence. I’m not going to say definitively that this makes him less valuable than Rose, but in his current situation he is surely less valuable than he was in Cleveland.

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  • #517632
    AvatarAvatar
    Sasha4MVP
    Participant

    The only case I think I could make is for Dwight this year.  Lebron has had a great year but I highly doubt that the voters would give it to him three years in a row.  I personally think Rose will win it this year since the media has already christened him as the MVP.  I would make an argument but it’s 3 in the morning and I’m sleepy.

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  • #517639
    AvatarAvatar
    dolla130
    Participant

    rose has this mvp on lock and people say the media has already gave it to him it wasnt like he playing subpar and the team had like 49 wins and they were praising him but thats not the case the kid and his new team are on pace to win almost 22 more games then a year ago,hes avg career highs in almost every stat with 2 players who people wanna name as all stars caliber players in boozer and noah who have been in and out all season,behind probably kobe he has been the best closer in the league this season he has also emerged as the best pg in the league. also as a leader hes very improved his teammates  love him his attitude rubs off on everyone and his i just wanna win and do what ever it takes attitude is why ppl wanna play with him

    lebron is the best player in the league hands down imo but thats not what the mvp stands for lebron is avg a point better ppl wanna say westbrook and rose have been doin almost the same but so has rose and lebron its just lebron is like 5 or 6 inches taller thus the rebound difference, this heat team were supposed to win like 70 games according to this same media that ppl say gave rose the mvp award and they most likely wont even finish with the best record in the east.

    dwight howard is the most dominant player in the league but i think his value is kind of overrated yeah he is the anchor on defense blah blah blah but they won 59 games last season and that same team early on in the season with howard who were underachieving hence the trade for those new players who since the  trade as a team are 32 and 19 and when jameer plays well they usually win and play well dwight gets his numbers but if he was more demanding he could be avg more points, also there have been lots of games this season when he was a non factor or vanshied in games which brings his value down and hes a no show in crunch time,also the reason for dwights all of a sudden mvp debates and arguements are because his annoying ass coach who dosent know when to shut up said something and then the guy says last night when they lost to the raptors" i cant trust no one on this team people wanna pick spots i dont kno who to trust" cmon son u not gonna back your best player

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