This topic contains 382 replies, has 31 voices, and was last updated by AvatarAvatar llperez 13 years, 3 months ago.

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  • #24208
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    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    I love debates but this one is tough to me. I remember the turning of 2010 and people asked: Who’s the player of the decade? Dozens pick Shaq, many stat guys picked Duncan but overwhelmingly, alot of people picked Kobe. 

    I ask not only who’s better but why is it that many people see Kobe is better then Duncan? For one, Duncan wasted 2 seasons in college, playing some good talent and probably knocked off 2000 points, 2000 rebounds and 100 blocks off his career. Kobe jumped into the NBA at 17 and didn’t look back. Duncan was a centerpiece from day 1 on the Spurs while Kobe didn’t become the number one until 2006 and had problems ( mostly because the roster but still). Throw in the fact, Tim Duncan never played with a top 50 guy all time in his prime. Kobe played with Shaq ( top 12 guy all time) and Gasol ( top 80 at this point all time) as his backup. I mean, had we thrown Duncan a superstar guard at their peak like Ray Allen: Do the Lakers even get past them at points? Do the Mavericks even come close? I don’t know, but it’s something to look at IMO.I’ll ask this: If you give Kobe Bryant guys similar to Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili at the 1 and 4 positions, do they win a title? I have a hard time saying yes to that.

    Then, throw on the fact Duncan has 3 Finals MVP’s, 4 NBA Championships to Kobe’s 5 titles and 2 MVP’s. Am I wrong to feel like Duncan’s titles were better? I mean, Duncan was robbed of a Finals MVP award ( Duncan was better then Parker in that Finals, Parker just got more open while they doubled Parker). Both won titles against bad teams ( Spurs over Cavs, Lakers over Nets). Duncan had monster closing games while Kobe really struggled in that game 7 vs the C’s ( He shot free throws at home getting calls.)

     

    So I ask this: Who was Better? Who was easier to build around? Who would you start a title team with? Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant?

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  • #462251
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    Damn…

    I think Tim Duncan is better and easier to build around because of the fact that it’s so difficult to find a great big.  Also, Tim Duncan brings ALOT more intangibles than Kobe Bryant.  Tim Duncan is NEVER rattled as Kobe has been seen yelling at teammates and throwing temper tantrums.  Tim Duncan a coaches dream, he is VERY coachable and is the perfect extension of a coach on the floor.  

     

    The way Duncan leads his team is unmatched.  He never gives up on a game and doesn’t let teammates give up.  When Kobe’s team is down, he begins ball hogging and chucking up shots from everywhere.  Kobe Bryant isn’t a coach on the floor, he needs a good coach for the team to be successful, (i.e. the seasons Phil Jackson was gone, so were the power house Lakers)

     

    Tim Duncan is just legendary, you can put him with a team with Shaq in his prime, Wade in his prime, LeBron in his prime, and if Duncan is averaging 8ppg and their winning, he’s happy.  Unlike Kobe, who was seen as the 2nd guy while winning championships and b*tched.

     

    Kobe can’t lead a team.. Tim Duncan can.

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  • #462266
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    Damn…

    I think Tim Duncan is better and easier to build around because of the fact that it’s so difficult to find a great big.  Also, Tim Duncan brings ALOT more intangibles than Kobe Bryant.  Tim Duncan is NEVER rattled as Kobe has been seen yelling at teammates and throwing temper tantrums.  Tim Duncan a coaches dream, he is VERY coachable and is the perfect extension of a coach on the floor.  

     

    The way Duncan leads his team is unmatched.  He never gives up on a game and doesn’t let teammates give up.  When Kobe’s team is down, he begins ball hogging and chucking up shots from everywhere.  Kobe Bryant isn’t a coach on the floor, he needs a good coach for the team to be successful, (i.e. the seasons Phil Jackson was gone, so were the power house Lakers)

     

    Tim Duncan is just legendary, you can put him with a team with Shaq in his prime, Wade in his prime, LeBron in his prime, and if Duncan is averaging 8ppg and their winning, he’s happy.  Unlike Kobe, who was seen as the 2nd guy while winning championships and b*tched.

     

    Kobe can’t lead a team.. Tim Duncan can.

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  • #462253
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    llperez

    "kobe cant lead a team…Tim Duncan can"

    LOL

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  • #462268
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    llperez

    "kobe cant lead a team…Tim Duncan can"

    LOL

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  • #462255
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    llperez, it ain’t a lie.  How many times have you seen Tim Duncan throw a temper tantrum?  Have you seen Tim Duncan scream and yell at his teammates?  Have you ever heard of his asking for a trade? Did he try to get Tony Parker traded after TP won a Finals MVP?  Never and no.

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  • #462270
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    llperez, it ain’t a lie.  How many times have you seen Tim Duncan throw a temper tantrum?  Have you seen Tim Duncan scream and yell at his teammates?  Have you ever heard of his asking for a trade? Did he try to get Tony Parker traded after TP won a Finals MVP?  Never and no.

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  • #462257
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    llperez

    I can go on and on all day why i would pick kobe, and i might just do that. But just to get things started. ANybody who says "kobe can not lead a team" has absolutely no credibility talking the sport of basketball, period.

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  • #462272
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    llperez

    I can go on and on all day why i would pick kobe, and i might just do that. But just to get things started. ANybody who says "kobe can not lead a team" has absolutely no credibility talking the sport of basketball, period.

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  • #462261
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    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    I don’t agree with the "Kobe cannot lead a team" but he did throw some tantrums. Also, he did do the descion before LeBron did yet noone remembers it because he went back to Los Angeles.

     

    Go all day on it, I’m interested to see why you lean Kobe over Duncan. I laid my chips down.

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  • #462276
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    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    I don’t agree with the "Kobe cannot lead a team" but he did throw some tantrums. Also, he did do the descion before LeBron did yet noone remembers it because he went back to Los Angeles.

     

    Go all day on it, I’m interested to see why you lean Kobe over Duncan. I laid my chips down.

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  • #462265
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    NYCrealdeal
    Participant

    your talking about two greats like this u can never go wrong. but i would allways take the dominant big over the dominant guard.

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  • #462280
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    NYCrealdeal
    Participant

    your talking about two greats like this u can never go wrong. but i would allways take the dominant big over the dominant guard.

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  • #462263
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    When did Kobe become a leader?  Was it when he was being a diva as to what team he wanted to play with and making his options Lakers only because Shaq was there?  Was it when he was angry that Shaq proved he was better in 3 straight championships?  Was it when he didn’t want Phil Jackson because Phil knew Shaq was better?  Was it when they missed the playoffs all those years when Kobe hogged the ball?  Was it when he asked for a trade because he couldn’t lead the team?  Was it when he begged Phil Jackson to come back?  Was it when he begged Derek Fisher come back?  Was is when they finally put together a cast that was on a championship level?  I’m not sure when it happened..  I must have been watching golf.

    Tim Duncan was a leader from DAY ONE.

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  • #462278
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    When did Kobe become a leader?  Was it when he was being a diva as to what team he wanted to play with and making his options Lakers only because Shaq was there?  Was it when he was angry that Shaq proved he was better in 3 straight championships?  Was it when he didn’t want Phil Jackson because Phil knew Shaq was better?  Was it when they missed the playoffs all those years when Kobe hogged the ball?  Was it when he asked for a trade because he couldn’t lead the team?  Was it when he begged Phil Jackson to come back?  Was it when he begged Derek Fisher come back?  Was is when they finally put together a cast that was on a championship level?  I’m not sure when it happened..  I must have been watching golf.

    Tim Duncan was a leader from DAY ONE.

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  • #462267
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    llperez

    Sure, but im gonna put a second into this building my argument so ill post it in a while.

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  • #462282
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    llperez

    Sure, but im gonna put a second into this building my argument so ill post it in a while.

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  • #462269
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    NYCrealdeal
    Participant

    “Was it when he raped that woman?”
    did u really have to put that one in there?

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  • #462284
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    NYCrealdeal
    Participant

    “Was it when he raped that woman?”
    did u really have to put that one in there?

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  • #462271
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    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Cool. Also, I was wrong on your boy Honeycutt. He’s looking good. Potential top 5 guy IMO.

     

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  • #462286
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    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Cool. Also, I was wrong on your boy Honeycutt. He’s looking good. Potential top 5 guy IMO.

     

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  • #462273
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    NYCrealdeal

    Yeah, I took it off.  It had NOTHING to do with basketball.

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  • #462288
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    NYCrealdeal

    Yeah, I took it off.  It had NOTHING to do with basketball.

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  • #462275
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    tounge out, im honest to goodness not even reading your posts. You can build all the anti kobe arguments you want. At the end of the day, you made this comment: "kobe can not lead a team". You opinion is invalid from here on out and i would love for you to take that statemtn around ex players, coaches, GM’s in the league and see how many think kobe is unable to lead a basketball team.

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  • #462290
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    tounge out, im honest to goodness not even reading your posts. You can build all the anti kobe arguments you want. At the end of the day, you made this comment: "kobe can not lead a team". You opinion is invalid from here on out and i would love for you to take that statemtn around ex players, coaches, GM’s in the league and see how many think kobe is unable to lead a basketball team.

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  • #462277
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    LOL, if you say so.  Good thing you didn’t read anything of mine.. you would have probably changed your display pic to a Spurs jersey afterward LMFAO

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  • #462292
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    LOL, if you say so.  Good thing you didn’t read anything of mine.. you would have probably changed your display pic to a Spurs jersey afterward LMFAO

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  • #462279
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i mean if we were to have this conversation as knowledgable adults, we should be willing to admit both tim and kobe are great players and capable of leading teams. But your inability to do that tounge out as well as bringing up off court stuff like kobe’s dropped rape charges shows incredibale bias on your behalf.

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  • #462294
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i mean if we were to have this conversation as knowledgable adults, we should be willing to admit both tim and kobe are great players and capable of leading teams. But your inability to do that tounge out as well as bringing up off court stuff like kobe’s dropped rape charges shows incredibale bias on your behalf.

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  • #462281
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    It’s okay man.. I know I’m right.  There’s no reason to argue it.  I’m off this post since I made my point.

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  • #462296
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    It’s okay man.. I know I’m right.  There’s no reason to argue it.  I’m off this post since I made my point.

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  • #462285
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    yes you made your point, you dont know basketball. "kobe can not lead a team" has to be one of the dumbest things ive ever heard on this site. You do realize he has gone to 7 nba finals tight?

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  • #462300
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    yes you made your point, you dont know basketball. "kobe can not lead a team" has to be one of the dumbest things ive ever heard on this site. You do realize he has gone to 7 nba finals tight?

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  • #462287
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i mean, i have heard plenty of crazy things on this site, but kobe can not lead a team goes right up there with birdzilla saying mario chalmers is the next chris paul.

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  • #462302
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i mean, i have heard plenty of crazy things on this site, but kobe can not lead a team goes right up there with birdzilla saying mario chalmers is the next chris paul.

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  • #462289
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    and i dont care about points, but for the people giving me thumbs down for disagreeing about kobe not being able to lead a basketball team, please step up and say who you are? i would love to hear your reasoning behind that stance?

    edit: nevermind, i dont want to hear your stance. It would just make my brian hurt more.

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  • #462304
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    and i dont care about points, but for the people giving me thumbs down for disagreeing about kobe not being able to lead a basketball team, please step up and say who you are? i would love to hear your reasoning behind that stance?

    edit: nevermind, i dont want to hear your stance. It would just make my brian hurt more.

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  • #462291
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    cp33
    Participant

    As a Suns fan, I cannot stand watching these two guys play my team. As a basketball fan, they are awesome basketball players. I admire Tim Duncan for all he has done and how wonderful of a human being the guy is. Kobe is one of the best basketball players of all time, but I think he is a disgraceful human being. This is why I would pick Timmy. Tim Duncan is also 10X the leader Kobe ever was or ever will be. Just the way it is llperez. Kobe has picked up some leadership skills along the way, but by the time he picked those up, the damage was done in my book. Kobe vs. Duncan talent wise would be a close call for me, but I’m picking Duncan because he is as classy as they come. Plus, he’s won all of his career, even when the Spurs were less talented. Kobe went through lottery seasons when they lost some talent. As a guy who dislikes the Spurs and the Lakers equally, this pick is not biased in any way. 

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  • #462306
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    cp33
    Participant

    As a Suns fan, I cannot stand watching these two guys play my team. As a basketball fan, they are awesome basketball players. I admire Tim Duncan for all he has done and how wonderful of a human being the guy is. Kobe is one of the best basketball players of all time, but I think he is a disgraceful human being. This is why I would pick Timmy. Tim Duncan is also 10X the leader Kobe ever was or ever will be. Just the way it is llperez. Kobe has picked up some leadership skills along the way, but by the time he picked those up, the damage was done in my book. Kobe vs. Duncan talent wise would be a close call for me, but I’m picking Duncan because he is as classy as they come. Plus, he’s won all of his career, even when the Spurs were less talented. Kobe went through lottery seasons when they lost some talent. As a guy who dislikes the Spurs and the Lakers equally, this pick is not biased in any way. 

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  • #462295
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    cp33, here are some of your statements: "dunacan is wonderful humanbeing. Kobe is a disgraceful human being. Im picking duncan becasue he is as classy as he comes. This pick is not biased in any way."

    COme on man, the question isnt who do you like as a person. If that was the case, then michael vick is garbage and jordan is not a leader either since he was a hard ass and punched teammates and yelled at teammates and cheated on his wife. If you want to pick how good an ahtlete is based on being Mr Rodgers have at it. Ill go with the guys who win.

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  • #462310
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    cp33, here are some of your statements: "dunacan is wonderful humanbeing. Kobe is a disgraceful human being. Im picking duncan becasue he is as classy as he comes. This pick is not biased in any way."

    COme on man, the question isnt who do you like as a person. If that was the case, then michael vick is garbage and jordan is not a leader either since he was a hard ass and punched teammates and yelled at teammates and cheated on his wife. If you want to pick how good an ahtlete is based on being Mr Rodgers have at it. Ill go with the guys who win.

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  • #462297
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    CodySLC
    Participant

     Looks like they can both lead a team to me.  

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  • #462312
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    CodySLC
    Participant

     Looks like they can both lead a team to me.  

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  • #462299
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    and just for the record, if someone wants to pick duncan like knicksboy did, then by all means, i might disagree but that is your opinion and i wouldnt waste too much time arguin it since both are great champions. BUt Im just calling out the arguments that are weak on here and make no sense.

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  • #462314
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    and just for the record, if someone wants to pick duncan like knicksboy did, then by all means, i might disagree but that is your opinion and i wouldnt waste too much time arguin it since both are great champions. BUt Im just calling out the arguments that are weak on here and make no sense.

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  • #462301
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    NYCrealdeal
    Participant

    u have yet to say why you would pick kobe over timmy D…….

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  • #462316
    AvatarAvatar
    NYCrealdeal
    Participant

    u have yet to say why you would pick kobe over timmy D…….

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  • #462303
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    also, im not sure how many of you guys play sports, but being a good leader and getting what you need out of your teammates is not all about being really nice and a swell guy who everyone likes and gets along with.

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  • #462318
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    also, im not sure how many of you guys play sports, but being a good leader and getting what you need out of your teammates is not all about being really nice and a swell guy who everyone likes and gets along with.

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  • #462305
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    cp33
    Participant

    Kobe is a punk and thats why I don’t want him on my team. If the Lakers were to start losing, then Kobe would go back to his old ways. Tim Duncan has never and will never do what Kobe has done. My argument about Duncan being a good human being is valid to the game of bball. Hes a better teammate and he wins no matter who surrounds him. I’ve never heard one complaint out of him. Duncan is a way better leader than Kobe could dream about being and thats why I choose him. You said, "Ill go with guys who win." Duncan does win championships right? Also, who has the better record?

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  • #462320
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

    Kobe is a punk and thats why I don’t want him on my team. If the Lakers were to start losing, then Kobe would go back to his old ways. Tim Duncan has never and will never do what Kobe has done. My argument about Duncan being a good human being is valid to the game of bball. Hes a better teammate and he wins no matter who surrounds him. I’ve never heard one complaint out of him. Duncan is a way better leader than Kobe could dream about being and thats why I choose him. You said, "Ill go with guys who win." Duncan does win championships right? Also, who has the better record?

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  • #462307
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    NYK2010
    Participant

    I’ll take Duncan over Kobe he doesn’t always have to be the top scoring option.

    Also he’s a better defender and he won with less talent look at the 99 Spurs, Robinson wasn’t that great no Parker, Ginobli and they swept the Lakers, Blazers.  2003 they won the title beat the 3pt Laker team, Mavs, in the West and Robinson was kind of over the hill in his last year, Parker wasn’t that great esp. in the Finals.  Duncan dominated Shaq and Kenyon Martin to win it all.  I think Duncan is a better defender than Kobe, though Kobe is better offensively.  Duncan has faced better competition at his position.  I agree with Kobe when he said he has no rival, the best SG he’s faced is Tmac and they only had some real battles in the playoffs that 1 year the Lakers were clearly the better team.  Outside of that the only rival he’s had on a yearly basis was Doug Christie, and Bruce Bowen even with Bowen being a great defender he was just a 3pt shooter on offense.

    Also don’t forget Kobe let his team lose the 2008 Finals Game 4 when they were up by more than 20 pts, I don’t see Duncan letting his team lose that game.  Another reason to take Duncan was Game 7 in 2005 against the Pistons he won them the game when they were down going up against some great defenders in Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace.  Obviously you can’t go wrong with either player since both are probably top 10 all time but I’d go with Duncan.  There hasn’t been a PF/C anywhere near as good as Duncan since he came into the league.

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  • #462322
    AvatarAvatar
    NYK2010
    Participant

    I’ll take Duncan over Kobe he doesn’t always have to be the top scoring option.

    Also he’s a better defender and he won with less talent look at the 99 Spurs, Robinson wasn’t that great no Parker, Ginobli and they swept the Lakers, Blazers.  2003 they won the title beat the 3pt Laker team, Mavs, in the West and Robinson was kind of over the hill in his last year, Parker wasn’t that great esp. in the Finals.  Duncan dominated Shaq and Kenyon Martin to win it all.  I think Duncan is a better defender than Kobe, though Kobe is better offensively.  Duncan has faced better competition at his position.  I agree with Kobe when he said he has no rival, the best SG he’s faced is Tmac and they only had some real battles in the playoffs that 1 year the Lakers were clearly the better team.  Outside of that the only rival he’s had on a yearly basis was Doug Christie, and Bruce Bowen even with Bowen being a great defender he was just a 3pt shooter on offense.

    Also don’t forget Kobe let his team lose the 2008 Finals Game 4 when they were up by more than 20 pts, I don’t see Duncan letting his team lose that game.  Another reason to take Duncan was Game 7 in 2005 against the Pistons he won them the game when they were down going up against some great defenders in Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace.  Obviously you can’t go wrong with either player since both are probably top 10 all time but I’d go with Duncan.  There hasn’t been a PF/C anywhere near as good as Duncan since he came into the league.

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  • #462309
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    llperez

    i said i wanted to look up some stats and stuff, but i got caught up in arguing. But just off the top of my head, kobe has more titals, 3 more finals appearances, has beaten tim head to head in the playoffs more often then not. Tim has never had less then 2 all-star claiber teammates around him. David robinson, manu ginobli, tony parker as well as numerous role players. So the whole KObe had a top 50 player with him doesnt mean much to me. Tim has had a great supporting cast and never had to go through a complete rebuilding process like kobe has had to in the prime of his career. Plus, i just think he is better. Tim hasnt been legitimately in the mvp discussion in how long again?

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  • #462324
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i said i wanted to look up some stats and stuff, but i got caught up in arguing. But just off the top of my head, kobe has more titals, 3 more finals appearances, has beaten tim head to head in the playoffs more often then not. Tim has never had less then 2 all-star claiber teammates around him. David robinson, manu ginobli, tony parker as well as numerous role players. So the whole KObe had a top 50 player with him doesnt mean much to me. Tim has had a great supporting cast and never had to go through a complete rebuilding process like kobe has had to in the prime of his career. Plus, i just think he is better. Tim hasnt been legitimately in the mvp discussion in how long again?

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  • #462311
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    cp33
    Participant

     NYK2010, great post man. Really couldn’t go wrong with either pick here. I pick Duncan because he is the better leader and has won every season he has been in the league. 

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  • #462326
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     NYK2010, great post man. Really couldn’t go wrong with either pick here. I pick Duncan because he is the better leader and has won every season he has been in the league. 

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  • #462313
    AvatarAvatar
    NYCrealdeal
    Participant

    “Tim hasnt been legitimately in the mvp discussion in how long again?”
    thats funny and sad cuz hes the best PF to ever play the game`

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  • #462328
    AvatarAvatar
    NYCrealdeal
    Participant

    “Tim hasnt been legitimately in the mvp discussion in how long again?”
    thats funny and sad cuz hes the best PF to ever play the game`

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  • #462315
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     why did Kobe have to go through a rebuilding process? Because he was selfish and a horrible teammate. He would rather lose without Shaq than win with him. There is no use in beating a dead horse though. Duncan is my pick all day long and Kobe is yours. You are also a Kobe fanatic. I am not a fan of either, but respect Duncan for what he has become. I’m done arguing this topic. Talking about Kobe and Duncan so much is making me relive some bad Suns moments and is making me sick.

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  • #462330
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     why did Kobe have to go through a rebuilding process? Because he was selfish and a horrible teammate. He would rather lose without Shaq than win with him. There is no use in beating a dead horse though. Duncan is my pick all day long and Kobe is yours. You are also a Kobe fanatic. I am not a fan of either, but respect Duncan for what he has become. I’m done arguing this topic. Talking about Kobe and Duncan so much is making me relive some bad Suns moments and is making me sick.

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  • #462317
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    CP33, are you really gonna use this seasons record in december as an argument.

    ANd NYK2010, you bring up kobe losing in the 2008 finals but dont mention the fact that same playoffs kobe led the lakers past tims spurs in 5 games. ANd in 2009 when kobe led his team to the title, tim was getting eliminated in the first round. ANd last year when kobe led his team to his 5th title, tim was getting sewpt out of the second round not even putting up a fight.

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  • #462332
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    CP33, are you really gonna use this seasons record in december as an argument.

    ANd NYK2010, you bring up kobe losing in the 2008 finals but dont mention the fact that same playoffs kobe led the lakers past tims spurs in 5 games. ANd in 2009 when kobe led his team to the title, tim was getting eliminated in the first round. ANd last year when kobe led his team to his 5th title, tim was getting sewpt out of the second round not even putting up a fight.

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  • #462336
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    why did kobe go through a rebuilding process? Uhm, because the lakers were old as crap. Malone retired, Payton was done, the bench was weak as hell. Basically kobe and hsaq were done with each other and the owner wisely sided with the younger more talnted guy who actually worked hard year round. The kobe/shaq lakers were done regardless and time for rebuilding was inevitable. Keep in mind as terrible as a teammate kobe was, malone said he would love to come back to the lakers even after the shaq trade but was to retire to injury. Payton was pissed he was traded to boston even after the shaq trade. Fisher came back to the lakers to play with kobe. Phil came back to the laker to coach kobe. And its not like shaq never left a team on bad terms or anything, i mean everyones always loved him right?

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  • #462321
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    why did kobe go through a rebuilding process? Uhm, because the lakers were old as crap. Malone retired, Payton was done, the bench was weak as hell. Basically kobe and hsaq were done with each other and the owner wisely sided with the younger more talnted guy who actually worked hard year round. The kobe/shaq lakers were done regardless and time for rebuilding was inevitable. Keep in mind as terrible as a teammate kobe was, malone said he would love to come back to the lakers even after the shaq trade but was to retire to injury. Payton was pissed he was traded to boston even after the shaq trade. Fisher came back to the lakers to play with kobe. Phil came back to the laker to coach kobe. And its not like shaq never left a team on bad terms or anything, i mean everyones always loved him right?

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  • #462340
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

    Some of this getting ridiculous. Kobe can lead a team, that is pretty much a fact and I don’t like Kobe much at all. Llperez is right in saying if you play sports you know being a leader isn’t always coddling your teammates. Sometimes you have to be brash like Kobe and Jordan and get them to step up, and as long as you win..who really cares? At the end of the day, I think winning games/championships means more then being a certain type of leader. Especially when both players have had their way work.

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  • #462325
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

    Some of this getting ridiculous. Kobe can lead a team, that is pretty much a fact and I don’t like Kobe much at all. Llperez is right in saying if you play sports you know being a leader isn’t always coddling your teammates. Sometimes you have to be brash like Kobe and Jordan and get them to step up, and as long as you win..who really cares? At the end of the day, I think winning games/championships means more then being a certain type of leader. Especially when both players have had their way work.

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  • #462342
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    So it took Kobe 10 years to become a leader.. With diva moments.

    Tim Duncan, day one.  Without the diva moments.

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  • #462327
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    So it took Kobe 10 years to become a leader.. With diva moments.

    Tim Duncan, day one.  Without the diva moments.

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  • #462344
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    tim is the best pf to ever play the game. I agree. He is a top 10 player of all time. UNlike some of you, im not trying to turn this into a bash on one of the guys thing. BUt fact is, tim has not deserved to be in the mvp discussion in quite a while.

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  • #462329
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    tim is the best pf to ever play the game. I agree. He is a top 10 player of all time. UNlike some of you, im not trying to turn this into a bash on one of the guys thing. BUt fact is, tim has not deserved to be in the mvp discussion in quite a while.

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  • #462346
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

    okay, where were the Spurs projected this year? Where were the Lakers projected? Duncan is leading his team past expectations while Kobe has them a bit under expectations. Kobe is an awesome basketball player! I just really don’t want that guy on my team. Sorry. Also, Michael Vick has never demanded a trade and made one horrible mistake. Vick is a story of redemption as Kobe is the same old story all over again. Do not compare the two. Jordan had his moments, but never demanded a trade. He also had a lot of arguments with his front office, but remained loyal to his organization. Kobe is in a class of his own when it comes to how unclassy he is(no pun intended). I am also throwing myself out of this argument because you fail to realize the simple argument we have been trying to make. Duncan is a way better leader than Kobe. Good night. 

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  • #462331
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

    okay, where were the Spurs projected this year? Where were the Lakers projected? Duncan is leading his team past expectations while Kobe has them a bit under expectations. Kobe is an awesome basketball player! I just really don’t want that guy on my team. Sorry. Also, Michael Vick has never demanded a trade and made one horrible mistake. Vick is a story of redemption as Kobe is the same old story all over again. Do not compare the two. Jordan had his moments, but never demanded a trade. He also had a lot of arguments with his front office, but remained loyal to his organization. Kobe is in a class of his own when it comes to how unclassy he is(no pun intended). I am also throwing myself out of this argument because you fail to realize the simple argument we have been trying to make. Duncan is a way better leader than Kobe. Good night. 

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  • #462348
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    tim was the best player on his team from day one. Had he gone straight out of hischool instead of playing 4 years of college, he wouldnt be able to say that. Also, he would not have been the best player had he played with a prime shaq either.

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  • #462333
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    tim was the best player on his team from day one. Had he gone straight out of hischool instead of playing 4 years of college, he wouldnt be able to say that. Also, he would not have been the best player had he played with a prime shaq either.

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  • #462350
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    WOW, I just came back to this post after like 30 min. only to find that you were talking to yourself after I left and to see cp33 and NYK2010 kill you on their replies.

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  • #462335
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    WOW, I just came back to this post after like 30 min. only to find that you were talking to yourself after I left and to see cp33 and NYK2010 kill you on their replies.

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  • #462337
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    So now you’re bringing Shaq’s prime into the conversation.. Well Kobe wouldn’t have been the best guard if he had played with Jordan or Oscar Robertston or Magic in their prime.  Checkmate.

     

    Saying "Duncan wouldn’t have been the best if he played with prime Shaq"  That’s just a pointless argument kid.  This is about Kobe and Duncan not Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe

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  • #462352
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    So now you’re bringing Shaq’s prime into the conversation.. Well Kobe wouldn’t have been the best guard if he had played with Jordan or Oscar Robertston or Magic in their prime.  Checkmate.

     

    Saying "Duncan wouldn’t have been the best if he played with prime Shaq"  That’s just a pointless argument kid.  This is about Kobe and Duncan not Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe

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  • #462339
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    wait, vick is a story of redmtion and kobe is not? WOw, kobe has become one of the most liked and respected players in the game. He cheated on hs wife. SO did magic and michael. ALso, i seriously dont think kobe ever wanted to be traded. He was pissed and used demanding for a trade as a tool to get the team to bring help. He was actually killing potential trades by saying he wouldnt go this team or that team and saying he wouldnt go to the bulls if deng was involved knowing full well that was the only way that trade could go down. He sabotaged every possible trade out there. ANd another thing that i like to bring up, the lakers were in first place in the west and kobe had already said he wanted to remain a laker BEFORE the pau trade, just for those that dont remember.

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  • #462354
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    wait, vick is a story of redmtion and kobe is not? WOw, kobe has become one of the most liked and respected players in the game. He cheated on hs wife. SO did magic and michael. ALso, i seriously dont think kobe ever wanted to be traded. He was pissed and used demanding for a trade as a tool to get the team to bring help. He was actually killing potential trades by saying he wouldnt go this team or that team and saying he wouldnt go to the bulls if deng was involved knowing full well that was the only way that trade could go down. He sabotaged every possible trade out there. ANd another thing that i like to bring up, the lakers were in first place in the west and kobe had already said he wanted to remain a laker BEFORE the pau trade, just for those that dont remember.

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  • #462341
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i obviously wasnt talking to myself if there were replies. ANd again, i would love for anyone, even one single person on this thread to vouch for you that kobe can not lead a team. DOes anybody want to support toungue out on that comment that i called him on? ANybody?

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  • #462356
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i obviously wasnt talking to myself if there were replies. ANd again, i would love for anyone, even one single person on this thread to vouch for you that kobe can not lead a team. DOes anybody want to support toungue out on that comment that i called him on? ANybody?

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  • #462343
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    wait, what? Saying kobe wasnt better then shaq is true. BUt since tim wasnt better then shaq either i think it is very valid to bring shaqs prime into it snce others want to use shaq being better then kobe against him. And who you calling kid? I got ball hairs older then you.

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  • #462358
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    wait, what? Saying kobe wasnt better then shaq is true. BUt since tim wasnt better then shaq either i think it is very valid to bring shaqs prime into it snce others want to use shaq being better then kobe against him. And who you calling kid? I got ball hairs older then you.

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  • #462347
    AvatarAvatar
    natedoggg
    Participant

    kobe all day.

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  • #462362
    AvatarAvatar
    natedoggg
    Participant

    kobe all day.

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  • #462355
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    Ill repeat, the only ting ive even been discussing with toungue out is his comment that kobe is unable to lead a team. DOes anyone want to back him on that? ANyone?

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  • #462370
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    Ill repeat, the only ting ive even been discussing with toungue out is his comment that kobe is unable to lead a team. DOes anyone want to back him on that? ANyone?

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  • #462357
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    Beuhler?… Beuhler? …Beuhler?

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  • #462372
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    Beuhler?… Beuhler? …Beuhler?

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  • #462361
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     I don’t support his claim that Kobe cannot lead, but I do support him in the fact that Tim Duncan is a better leader and has been since day 1. Kobe barely learned how to be a leader. Boy, are you Kobes little brother or something. It seems like you are in his head. You know he didn’t really want to be traded? Why would anyone play with fire like that? He was nearly dealt to the Bulls. Idk where you get this idea that Kobe is this "great" leader. He is not. He is an amazing athlete and that is why he has won so much. I know I said I was done arguing this topic, but I had to put in a few more cents. I am now going to bed. I hope I don’t relive that Duncan 3 pointer or the Kobe dunk over Nash in a dream as I try to sleep tonight.

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  • #462376
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     I don’t support his claim that Kobe cannot lead, but I do support him in the fact that Tim Duncan is a better leader and has been since day 1. Kobe barely learned how to be a leader. Boy, are you Kobes little brother or something. It seems like you are in his head. You know he didn’t really want to be traded? Why would anyone play with fire like that? He was nearly dealt to the Bulls. Idk where you get this idea that Kobe is this "great" leader. He is not. He is an amazing athlete and that is why he has won so much. I know I said I was done arguing this topic, but I had to put in a few more cents. I am now going to bed. I hope I don’t relive that Duncan 3 pointer or the Kobe dunk over Nash in a dream as I try to sleep tonight.

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  • #462363
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    I know toungue out, its late. Im sure all these people who think kobe cant lead a basketball team will come on in the morning. We can ask this again tomorrow. Maybe you can even find someone online that will back you and you can have thme create an account so you have someone who agrees with you.

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  • #462378
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    I know toungue out, its late. Im sure all these people who think kobe cant lead a basketball team will come on in the morning. We can ask this again tomorrow. Maybe you can even find someone online that will back you and you can have thme create an account so you have someone who agrees with you.

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  • #462365
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     I will give credit where credit is due though. I have said Kobe is not a leader but you are right in one respect. He has became an o.k. leader for his team. No where near the leader Duncan is though. I still stand by my decision to pick Duncan over Kobe. One question though perez, Do you honestly believe Kobe is a better leader than Duncan?

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  • #462380
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     I will give credit where credit is due though. I have said Kobe is not a leader but you are right in one respect. He has became an o.k. leader for his team. No where near the leader Duncan is though. I still stand by my decision to pick Duncan over Kobe. One question though perez, Do you honestly believe Kobe is a better leader than Duncan?

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  • #462367
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    ask anyone who played with kobe not named shaq or chucky atkins if they respected him as a leader. I think guys who actually play with him would know best. How much has ron artest calmed down since joining kobe? How much has pau’s stock risen since he joined kobe? What do you think fishers career would be remembered as if he never played with kobe? Kobe Is a great leader.

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  • #462382
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    ask anyone who played with kobe not named shaq or chucky atkins if they respected him as a leader. I think guys who actually play with him would know best. How much has ron artest calmed down since joining kobe? How much has pau’s stock risen since he joined kobe? What do you think fishers career would be remembered as if he never played with kobe? Kobe Is a great leader.

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  • #462369
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     btw, llperez. your last post is invalid now. night 

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  • #462384
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     btw, llperez. your last post is invalid now. night 

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  • #462373
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    my last post is invalid now? Uhm, okay. Nighty night

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  • #462388
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    my last post is invalid now? Uhm, okay. Nighty night

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  • #462375
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     I believe the above situations have more to do with Phil Jackson than Kobe Bryant. Kobe did not create the triangle offense. Also, Kobe never dealt with Rodman.

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  • #462390
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     I believe the above situations have more to do with Phil Jackson than Kobe Bryant. Kobe did not create the triangle offense. Also, Kobe never dealt with Rodman.

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  • #462377
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    llperez, i don’t know who you’re talking to asking for people who second my facts.  I’ve seen a couple of people already say that they’d take Duncan over Kobe and gave their analysis.. You’re the only one that has said Kobe and yet you still don’t have an analysis.  You’re in defense mode right now, try to get into attack mode and have a valid argument without using stats as I did.  because if we look at stats, Oscar Robertson is the greatest player.

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  • #462392
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    llperez, i don’t know who you’re talking to asking for people who second my facts.  I’ve seen a couple of people already say that they’d take Duncan over Kobe and gave their analysis.. You’re the only one that has said Kobe and yet you still don’t have an analysis.  You’re in defense mode right now, try to get into attack mode and have a valid argument without using stats as I did.  because if we look at stats, Oscar Robertson is the greatest player.

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  • #462379
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    kobe did deal with rodamn. They were teammates. ALthough im not sure what rodman has to do with any of this.

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  • #462394
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    kobe did deal with rodamn. They were teammates. ALthough im not sure what rodman has to do with any of this.

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  • #462383
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    toungue, out this whole thread is my analysis. ANd read through it again, i didnt call you out for picking duncan like others have done. I called you out for one very particular statement of your "kobe can not lead a basketball team". ANd so far, i have not seen one person on here agree with that.

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  • #462398
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    toungue, out this whole thread is my analysis. ANd read through it again, i didnt call you out for picking duncan like others have done. I called you out for one very particular statement of your "kobe can not lead a basketball team". ANd so far, i have not seen one person on here agree with that.

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  • #462385
    AvatarAvatar
    creepingdef
    Participant

     – Tim Duncan never lead the Spurs from day one because there was another leader on that team: David Robinson. It was only until Robinson decided to retire that Duncan decided to step up lead the team, and even then he was reluctant at first. Want proof?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Duncan#Leader_of_the_Spurs_.282003.E2.80.932007.29

    – Kobe did not beg Derek Fisher to come back to the Lakers. Derek Fisher left the Utah Jazz for the Lakers because his daughter had contracted retinoblastoma, and Los Angeles was one of the few places that had specialists to treat it. Rejoining the Lakers became a logical choice because of his past history with the team, not because Kobe was begging for him to come back.

    – Kobe didn’t beg Phil Jackson to come back. Jerry Buss did. Phil and Kobe eventually settled their differences, which shows leadership in a sense by admitting one’s faults. Ensuing championships after this are proof of a maturation process.

    – The reason Kobe never lead the Lakers from the beginning was because he was playing off the bench behind All-Star Eddie Jones. He was on the bench not because he didn’t have talent, but because Coach Del Harris preferred an experienced player like Eddie Jones playing. You can’t expect a 17 year old kid to lead a team with veterans such as Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones from the bench. 

    – 

    – Kobe couldn’t lead the Lakers during the early championship years because an experienced and dominant (basketball wise) Shaq was on the squad. It’d be a bit like expecting John Wall to lead over Dwight Howard (if they were on the same team). He might have the talent to lead a team, but because a dominant force and experienced player is on the roster, he couldn’t.

    – Both Kobe and Duncan have very different styles of leadership. Duncan has a silent, stoic demeanor compared to Kobe’s fiery, tempered style (which can come across as arrogant). Note that Duncan was expected to lead eventually, and mentored by Robinson and was thrust into the leadership role much earlier than Kobe. Kobe wasn’t expected to lead because the team assembled that had Shaq was expected to last together for quite a long time. It wasn’t until Shaq left that Kobe had to mature into a leadership role.

    – From a leadership stance, Kobe (at this stage) is on par or better than Duncan. However, he was extremely immature in his early years, unlike Duncan who took a silent, stoic approach.

    – If you look from a basketball standpoint, it’s hard to compare them (as they play different positions), but I’d say Kobe is better. Kobe had plenty of trials and tribulations during his career which caused a division between sports fans to either “love him” or “hate him”, resulting in a sense of bias. Duncan has always kept a professional work ethic.

    – Kobe’s influence has transcended sport similiar to Michael Jordan, something that Tim Duncan has not done. This is not a knock against Duncan’s tremendous skill, but when one’s play and greatness is recognised off the court internationally by people who aren’t even fans of basketball, then surely this is a testament to Kobe’s talent.

    It’s more of an argument of who is “1a” and “1b”, and depending whether you love Kobe or hate him, is where you’ll place him.

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  • #462400
    AvatarAvatar
    creepingdef
    Participant

     – Tim Duncan never lead the Spurs from day one because there was another leader on that team: David Robinson. It was only until Robinson decided to retire that Duncan decided to step up lead the team, and even then he was reluctant at first. Want proof?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Duncan#Leader_of_the_Spurs_.282003.E2.80.932007.29

    – Kobe did not beg Derek Fisher to come back to the Lakers. Derek Fisher left the Utah Jazz for the Lakers because his daughter had contracted retinoblastoma, and Los Angeles was one of the few places that had specialists to treat it. Rejoining the Lakers became a logical choice because of his past history with the team, not because Kobe was begging for him to come back.

    – Kobe didn’t beg Phil Jackson to come back. Jerry Buss did. Phil and Kobe eventually settled their differences, which shows leadership in a sense by admitting one’s faults. Ensuing championships after this are proof of a maturation process.

    – The reason Kobe never lead the Lakers from the beginning was because he was playing off the bench behind All-Star Eddie Jones. He was on the bench not because he didn’t have talent, but because Coach Del Harris preferred an experienced player like Eddie Jones playing. You can’t expect a 17 year old kid to lead a team with veterans such as Nick Van Exel and Eddie Jones from the bench. 

    – 

    – Kobe couldn’t lead the Lakers during the early championship years because an experienced and dominant (basketball wise) Shaq was on the squad. It’d be a bit like expecting John Wall to lead over Dwight Howard (if they were on the same team). He might have the talent to lead a team, but because a dominant force and experienced player is on the roster, he couldn’t.

    – Both Kobe and Duncan have very different styles of leadership. Duncan has a silent, stoic demeanor compared to Kobe’s fiery, tempered style (which can come across as arrogant). Note that Duncan was expected to lead eventually, and mentored by Robinson and was thrust into the leadership role much earlier than Kobe. Kobe wasn’t expected to lead because the team assembled that had Shaq was expected to last together for quite a long time. It wasn’t until Shaq left that Kobe had to mature into a leadership role.

    – From a leadership stance, Kobe (at this stage) is on par or better than Duncan. However, he was extremely immature in his early years, unlike Duncan who took a silent, stoic approach.

    – If you look from a basketball standpoint, it’s hard to compare them (as they play different positions), but I’d say Kobe is better. Kobe had plenty of trials and tribulations during his career which caused a division between sports fans to either “love him” or “hate him”, resulting in a sense of bias. Duncan has always kept a professional work ethic.

    – Kobe’s influence has transcended sport similiar to Michael Jordan, something that Tim Duncan has not done. This is not a knock against Duncan’s tremendous skill, but when one’s play and greatness is recognised off the court internationally by people who aren’t even fans of basketball, then surely this is a testament to Kobe’s talent.

    It’s more of an argument of who is “1a” and “1b”, and depending whether you love Kobe or hate him, is where you’ll place him.

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  • #462387
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     Rodman and Artest are very similar. I believe the common factor here is Phil Jackson. I don’t think Kobe made both those guys calm down. I also don’t believe he wants Pau Gasol to be the number 1 guy in L.A. He’s not the reason Pau is so good. Pau actually is playing very similar to the way he played with the Grizzlies. One difference is the team. If you were to put Luis Scola on the Lakers instead of Pau, would he be getting a lot of attention. A lot of the attention Pau gets is based on the team he’s on. He was still a great PF with the Grizz. 

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  • #462402
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     Rodman and Artest are very similar. I believe the common factor here is Phil Jackson. I don’t think Kobe made both those guys calm down. I also don’t believe he wants Pau Gasol to be the number 1 guy in L.A. He’s not the reason Pau is so good. Pau actually is playing very similar to the way he played with the Grizzlies. One difference is the team. If you were to put Luis Scola on the Lakers instead of Pau, would he be getting a lot of attention. A lot of the attention Pau gets is based on the team he’s on. He was still a great PF with the Grizz. 

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  • #462389
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    A leader doesn’t b*tch and moan every chance they get.  A leader cares more about winning no matter who they play.  A leader doesn’t try to get everybody fired and traded.  A leader plays with what he’s got and makes them better.  A leader trusts his teammates.  And most of all, the leadership quality comes naturally.

     

    Kobe became a decent leader until the 2008-2009 season.  It took him 12 years, countless arguments, dozens of temper tantrums, many critical mistakes to finally become a decent leader.  Not only that, he’s playing with natural leaders like Derek Fisher, Pau Gasol, and most of all Phil Jackson.

     

    I’m not denying Kobe’s talent, he is a top 15 NBA player when it’s all set and done.

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  • #462404
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    A leader doesn’t b*tch and moan every chance they get.  A leader cares more about winning no matter who they play.  A leader doesn’t try to get everybody fired and traded.  A leader plays with what he’s got and makes them better.  A leader trusts his teammates.  And most of all, the leadership quality comes naturally.

     

    Kobe became a decent leader until the 2008-2009 season.  It took him 12 years, countless arguments, dozens of temper tantrums, many critical mistakes to finally become a decent leader.  Not only that, he’s playing with natural leaders like Derek Fisher, Pau Gasol, and most of all Phil Jackson.

     

    I’m not denying Kobe’s talent, he is a top 15 NBA player when it’s all set and done.

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  • #462393
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    cp33, pau was soft in memphis and he was soft that first year with the lakers. I have no doubt kobe rubbed off on him from a toughness standpoint. Artest has said numerous times how much he respects kobe. Watch after he hit that game winner against the suns, he runs up to kobe and hugs him. He has never been one to listen to coaches who have told him no to shoot. Kobe himself said in an interview that he told artest before he joined the lakers, if you come here you will defer to me on the court and you will win. Artest has done just that and has looked fine doing it. I defenitely think kobe is the primary reason artest now accepts his role.

    Read up on the 2008 olympic team with kobe, wade, lebron etc… It was written by numerous people who followed the team that kobe was the leader and that he got guys working out in the morning and earlier then they were used to and that he showed those stars work ehteic they hadnt seen before.

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  • #462408
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    cp33, pau was soft in memphis and he was soft that first year with the lakers. I have no doubt kobe rubbed off on him from a toughness standpoint. Artest has said numerous times how much he respects kobe. Watch after he hit that game winner against the suns, he runs up to kobe and hugs him. He has never been one to listen to coaches who have told him no to shoot. Kobe himself said in an interview that he told artest before he joined the lakers, if you come here you will defer to me on the court and you will win. Artest has done just that and has looked fine doing it. I defenitely think kobe is the primary reason artest now accepts his role.

    Read up on the 2008 olympic team with kobe, wade, lebron etc… It was written by numerous people who followed the team that kobe was the leader and that he got guys working out in the morning and earlier then they were used to and that he showed those stars work ehteic they hadnt seen before.

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  • #462401
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    cp33
    Participant

     creepindef, thank you for arguing valid points. You are the first pro-Kobe guy on this board that has made any sense. Duncan is still my guy though, and I almost despise him on the court as much as Kobe. This hurts but if we are talking about right now, I would probably pick Kobe probably just because he has more left in his tank and Duncan is on the decline. Duncan is still leading his team to an outstanding season and I wouldn’t be shocked if he led the Spurs to the finals, but realistically, the Lakers have a better shot. I stand by my choice to pick Duncan  from day one. Duncan has made the Spurs into one of the best franchises this league has seen 

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  • #462416
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     creepindef, thank you for arguing valid points. You are the first pro-Kobe guy on this board that has made any sense. Duncan is still my guy though, and I almost despise him on the court as much as Kobe. This hurts but if we are talking about right now, I would probably pick Kobe probably just because he has more left in his tank and Duncan is on the decline. Duncan is still leading his team to an outstanding season and I wouldn’t be shocked if he led the Spurs to the finals, but realistically, the Lakers have a better shot. I stand by my choice to pick Duncan  from day one. Duncan has made the Spurs into one of the best franchises this league has seen 

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  • #462403
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    -If you watched Robinson and Duncan, you know they both led that team… I’m not going to take Wikipedia as a source of valid information because anybody can edit it..

    -Fisher came back to L.A. not because he loved playing with Kobe as llperez stated, it’s because of his daughter.

    -Kobe basically begged Busse to do something with the Lakers or he would leave, as a diva would do.

    -Kobe never lead the Lakers until 2008 so regardless if he would have played his rookie year, he still wouldn’t have been a leader.

    -Kobe at this point of his career still isn’t the leader Duncan is, the fact that he’s playing with the greatest coach of all time in Phil Jackson and with Derek Fisher, it seems as if Kobe is a better leader when it’s actually Derek Fisher and Jackson.

    -The only reason Kobe is more famous worldwide is because it’s easier to commercial a shooting guard with great athletic skills that constantly pops into Top 10’s on highlights and live in Los Angeles than a 6’11 back to the basket power forward from San Antonio.

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  • #462418
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    -If you watched Robinson and Duncan, you know they both led that team… I’m not going to take Wikipedia as a source of valid information because anybody can edit it..

    -Fisher came back to L.A. not because he loved playing with Kobe as llperez stated, it’s because of his daughter.

    -Kobe basically begged Busse to do something with the Lakers or he would leave, as a diva would do.

    -Kobe never lead the Lakers until 2008 so regardless if he would have played his rookie year, he still wouldn’t have been a leader.

    -Kobe at this point of his career still isn’t the leader Duncan is, the fact that he’s playing with the greatest coach of all time in Phil Jackson and with Derek Fisher, it seems as if Kobe is a better leader when it’s actually Derek Fisher and Jackson.

    -The only reason Kobe is more famous worldwide is because it’s easier to commercial a shooting guard with great athletic skills that constantly pops into Top 10’s on highlights and live in Los Angeles than a 6’11 back to the basket power forward from San Antonio.

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  • #462405
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    kobe has had 3 phases in his career.

    early kobe with shaq: he was unable to be a true leader. He wanted to lead, but he butted heads with the best player on the team and he was in his teens/early 20’s and the vets would only listen so mucvh. BUt he did lead by example on the court.

    Kobe after shaq was a leader. He demended the best from his teammates. But they sucked. Tell me that duncan or anyone would have won with a starting 5 of luke walton, kwame brown, lamar odom and smuch parker and no bench? Hell, kobe deserves a medal for making the playoffs with that team. FUny that duncan is so much more a leader yet in the last 2 playoffs he hasnt won a single game past the first round.

    Kobe now is undeniably a leader who trusts his teammates. In the last few years, its not even a discussion of whether kobe is a leader or not.

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  • #462420
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    kobe has had 3 phases in his career.

    early kobe with shaq: he was unable to be a true leader. He wanted to lead, but he butted heads with the best player on the team and he was in his teens/early 20’s and the vets would only listen so mucvh. BUt he did lead by example on the court.

    Kobe after shaq was a leader. He demended the best from his teammates. But they sucked. Tell me that duncan or anyone would have won with a starting 5 of luke walton, kwame brown, lamar odom and smuch parker and no bench? Hell, kobe deserves a medal for making the playoffs with that team. FUny that duncan is so much more a leader yet in the last 2 playoffs he hasnt won a single game past the first round.

    Kobe now is undeniably a leader who trusts his teammates. In the last few years, its not even a discussion of whether kobe is a leader or not.

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  • #462407
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    creepingdef, there are my arguments to your valid points.

     

    Finally someone likes Kobe that can put together a coherent and valid argument without using stats and just saying "Kobe all day"  and for that, I thank you.  I would much rather debate with you than with llperez

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  • #462422
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    creepingdef, there are my arguments to your valid points.

     

    Finally someone likes Kobe that can put together a coherent and valid argument without using stats and just saying "Kobe all day"  and for that, I thank you.  I would much rather debate with you than with llperez

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  • #462411
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    funny that creepingdef is the only pro kobe guy who has made any sense yet he mentioned most of the same things i have been saying. Please tell me what exactly i have said that didnt make sense cp33?

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  • #462426
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    funny that creepingdef is the only pro kobe guy who has made any sense yet he mentioned most of the same things i have been saying. Please tell me what exactly i have said that didnt make sense cp33?

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  • #462415
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    llperez

    toungue out, you brought up stats and you made the outrageous comments of "kobe cant lead". If anyone has been on some nuthugging silliness its you.

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  • #462430
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    toungue out, you brought up stats and you made the outrageous comments of "kobe cant lead". If anyone has been on some nuthugging silliness its you.

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  • #462417
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     llperez, have I not said he has become a leader? He’s just not the "great" leader you make him out to be. Are you saying that it is all Kobe that made Pau good and Artest calm? Maybe they matured just like Kobe did. Again, you act like you are in Artest and Gasols heads. You don’t know the truth about why they have changes. Could have been Phil, could have been Kobe. But why must you act like Kobe is a god and whoever he touches, he turns them into legends. Its not the case. It makes more sense to claim that Phil Jackson did those things, because he’s been in those situations before and is known as a guy who makes players change for the better. 

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  • #462432
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     llperez, have I not said he has become a leader? He’s just not the "great" leader you make him out to be. Are you saying that it is all Kobe that made Pau good and Artest calm? Maybe they matured just like Kobe did. Again, you act like you are in Artest and Gasols heads. You don’t know the truth about why they have changes. Could have been Phil, could have been Kobe. But why must you act like Kobe is a god and whoever he touches, he turns them into legends. Its not the case. It makes more sense to claim that Phil Jackson did those things, because he’s been in those situations before and is known as a guy who makes players change for the better. 

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  • #462419
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    And what stats did I bring up?  Show them to me.

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  • #462434
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    And what stats did I bring up?  Show them to me.

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  • #462421
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    NYCrealdeal
    Participant

    are both leaders they are both great leaders but llead in their own ways. how bout we get back on topic and answer the question for the post

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  • #462436
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    NYCrealdeal
    Participant

    are both leaders they are both great leaders but llead in their own ways. how bout we get back on topic and answer the question for the post

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  • #462423
    AvatarAvatar
    NYCrealdeal
    Participant

    “Kobe all day”

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  • #462438
    AvatarAvatar
    NYCrealdeal
    Participant

    “Kobe all day”

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  • #462425
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    okay cp33, i said i believe kobe had impact on them and you said you believed it was phil. Yet somehow im trying to act lik im in their heads for knowing them for saying what i believe while, let me guess, you are jsut giving your opinion right? WHo said kobe turns everyhting he touches into legends? I gave a rational explantion as to how i think he impacted their careers and you trying to suggest im just blindly saying everything he touches is gold and  he has no faults gives me the impression that you are gettgin frustrtated and must resort to childish antics.

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  • #462440
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    okay cp33, i said i believe kobe had impact on them and you said you believed it was phil. Yet somehow im trying to act lik im in their heads for knowing them for saying what i believe while, let me guess, you are jsut giving your opinion right? WHo said kobe turns everyhting he touches into legends? I gave a rational explantion as to how i think he impacted their careers and you trying to suggest im just blindly saying everything he touches is gold and  he has no faults gives me the impression that you are gettgin frustrtated and must resort to childish antics.

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  • #462429
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    your right for once toungue out, i dont know what stats you brought up. I never read your first couple posts. I was too dumbfounded by the kobe cant lead comment.

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  • #462444
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    your right for once toungue out, i dont know what stats you brought up. I never read your first couple posts. I was too dumbfounded by the kobe cant lead comment.

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  • #462427
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    llperez, unless you finally put together an analysis without using stats.  Then I’m not listening.  Yeah I said Kobe isn’t a leader, but I gave my facts so to why he isn’t.  You haven’t said anything at all except "Malone, Payton, and Fisher all love playing with Kobe"  When we all know it’s not the case, they just like winning, if Malone, Payton, and Fisher would have been playing with LeBron, they would praise him as well.  They praise him on his talents, not his leadership ability.

     

    Come up with something valid like creepindef and maybe I’ll consider listening.

     

    Point is, I’m taking Duncan. Period.

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  • #462442
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    llperez, unless you finally put together an analysis without using stats.  Then I’m not listening.  Yeah I said Kobe isn’t a leader, but I gave my facts so to why he isn’t.  You haven’t said anything at all except "Malone, Payton, and Fisher all love playing with Kobe"  When we all know it’s not the case, they just like winning, if Malone, Payton, and Fisher would have been playing with LeBron, they would praise him as well.  They praise him on his talents, not his leadership ability.

     

    Come up with something valid like creepindef and maybe I’ll consider listening.

     

    Point is, I’m taking Duncan. Period.

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  • #462431
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    and again, have you read anything i worote toungue out? Are you saying the only thing i have brought up is stats? Maybe read through the thread again, i have brought tons of stuff that wasnt just stats.

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  • #462446
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    and again, have you read anything i worote toungue out? Are you saying the only thing i have brought up is stats? Maybe read through the thread again, i have brought tons of stuff that wasnt just stats.

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  • #462433
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     llperez, please answer this question. Do you know 100% that Kobe has impacted those players and do you think it is not Phil Jackson at all? I am not frustrated as I have not thrown childish antics into this. You have been doing that enough all night by yourself. I believe you are the frustrated one sir.

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  • #462448
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     llperez, please answer this question. Do you know 100% that Kobe has impacted those players and do you think it is not Phil Jackson at all? I am not frustrated as I have not thrown childish antics into this. You have been doing that enough all night by yourself. I believe you are the frustrated one sir.

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  • #462435
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    Yes, I have read some of it.  Point is, Duncan and Kobe are great players but it’s more difficult to find a big man who isn’t a diva and is okay with playing in a small market and still win.  So, I’m taking Duncan.  And Duncan is more of a leader.

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  • #462450
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    Yes, I have read some of it.  Point is, Duncan and Kobe are great players but it’s more difficult to find a big man who isn’t a diva and is okay with playing in a small market and still win.  So, I’m taking Duncan.  And Duncan is more of a leader.

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  • #462437
    AvatarAvatar
    creepingdef
    Participant

    –  I can concede that Tim Duncan is a better leader overall than Kobe, as it took time for Kobe to really step in to the role as a leader around ’08.

    – Also, if you won’t accept Wikipedia as a valid citation, then here’s an article with direct quotes from David Robinson himself. 

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2007/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2905018

    To save you time, here’s the excerpt:

    “He’s smarter than he was when he first came in the league, but the biggest area [of improvement] is his leadership,” Robinson said. “He’s much more vocal. When he came here, he didn’t really want to be that guy. He’s stepped into that now, and he’s an incredible leader. He’s still not overly vocal, but he says things at the appropriate time. He’s not afraid to speak up and he’s not afraid to go into the press conference and say what he needs to say.”

    If we’re talking about leadership then I’ll give it to Duncan. If we’re going with talking about basketball skill, which Knicksboy1 originally posted about, then I’ll go with Kobe.

    I’ll go with Kobe, and I’m not ashamed to say Kobe’s my favourite player, but it’s a “love him” or “hate him” sort of thing with him due to issues early on in his career. If he conducted himself like Duncan, then Kobe would be elevated onto an even higher pedestal, and without a disparity of support between basketball fans.

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  • #462452
    AvatarAvatar
    creepingdef
    Participant

    –  I can concede that Tim Duncan is a better leader overall than Kobe, as it took time for Kobe to really step in to the role as a leader around ’08.

    – Also, if you won’t accept Wikipedia as a valid citation, then here’s an article with direct quotes from David Robinson himself. 

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2007/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2905018

    To save you time, here’s the excerpt:

    “He’s smarter than he was when he first came in the league, but the biggest area [of improvement] is his leadership,” Robinson said. “He’s much more vocal. When he came here, he didn’t really want to be that guy. He’s stepped into that now, and he’s an incredible leader. He’s still not overly vocal, but he says things at the appropriate time. He’s not afraid to speak up and he’s not afraid to go into the press conference and say what he needs to say.”

    If we’re talking about leadership then I’ll give it to Duncan. If we’re going with talking about basketball skill, which Knicksboy1 originally posted about, then I’ll go with Kobe.

    I’ll go with Kobe, and I’m not ashamed to say Kobe’s my favourite player, but it’s a “love him” or “hate him” sort of thing with him due to issues early on in his career. If he conducted himself like Duncan, then Kobe would be elevated onto an even higher pedestal, and without a disparity of support between basketball fans.

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  • #462439
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    lol, who said phil jackson has had no impact at all? Nobody in the history of sports is 100% impacted by anyone or anything. Its always a combination of things. I never once claimed that kbe was the only reason for anything. Yet you resort to that as i have.

    You want an example of childish antics. I said kobe impacts the players around him. You say phil impacts the players around him. I dont turn around and say, "what you think its 100% phil and everything phil does is gold and he single handidly makes everyone around them who they are all by himself?" Thats the comments you are bringing at me trying to put outlandish statements in my mouth and then suggesting im talking crazy.

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  • #462454
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    lol, who said phil jackson has had no impact at all? Nobody in the history of sports is 100% impacted by anyone or anything. Its always a combination of things. I never once claimed that kbe was the only reason for anything. Yet you resort to that as i have.

    You want an example of childish antics. I said kobe impacts the players around him. You say phil impacts the players around him. I dont turn around and say, "what you think its 100% phil and everything phil does is gold and he single handidly makes everyone around them who they are all by himself?" Thats the comments you are bringing at me trying to put outlandish statements in my mouth and then suggesting im talking crazy.

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  • #462441
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    "im taking duncan and duncan is more of a leader"

    Awesome, if you had said that originally it would have saved us all some time. Are you still standing by your coment that started all this by stating "kobe can not lead a basketball team"?

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  • #462456
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    "im taking duncan and duncan is more of a leader"

    Awesome, if you had said that originally it would have saved us all some time. Are you still standing by your coment that started all this by stating "kobe can not lead a basketball team"?

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  • #462443
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     I believe Creepingdef is the smartest Laker fan I have ever known. He sticks by his man, but sees where the opposition is coming from. These two guys are great NBA players and when they retire, the league will be without one of the greatest SG’s to play the game and the one of best PF’s to play the game.

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  • #462458
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     I believe Creepingdef is the smartest Laker fan I have ever known. He sticks by his man, but sees where the opposition is coming from. These two guys are great NBA players and when they retire, the league will be without one of the greatest SG’s to play the game and the one of best PF’s to play the game.

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  • #462445
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    I won’t say Kobe leads a team on his own, but he can lead a team to some extent.  With the help of Fisher and Jackson of course, who are two great leaders of their time.

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  • #462460
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    I won’t say Kobe leads a team on his own, but he can lead a team to some extent.  With the help of Fisher and Jackson of course, who are two great leaders of their time.

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  • #462447
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    yep just like i have been saying all along on this thread. Both great players and both will go down as great champions. Unlike some people on this thread, i dont need to simply resort to bashing one player like cp33 and toungue out do to prove my point.

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  • #462462
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    yep just like i have been saying all along on this thread. Both great players and both will go down as great champions. Unlike some people on this thread, i dont need to simply resort to bashing one player like cp33 and toungue out do to prove my point.

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  • #462449
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    I never bashed on Kobe.  I just said he isn’t much of a leader, which isn’t a knock on him.  A lot of players win without being leaders.

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  • #462464
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    I never bashed on Kobe.  I just said he isn’t much of a leader, which isn’t a knock on him.  A lot of players win without being leaders.

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  • #462451
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     and the difference between me and you llperez, is I am not a fan of the lakers or the spurs. I also don’t really like Phil Jackson just because he is a coach for them. I just based my argument on more plausible grounds then you did. You said Kobe made Pau better and Artest calm. Really? Its far more likely that Phil Jackson is the reason those things happened. Heck, even Andrew Bynum couldve made Pau tougher. Bynum could have also helped Artest calm down. I am not claiming to know that answer. The more plausible idea is that Jackson was more influential person in those changes then Kobe. You claimed the Kobe was the reason behind both of those. That is the difference llperez

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  • #462466
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    cp33
    Participant

     and the difference between me and you llperez, is I am not a fan of the lakers or the spurs. I also don’t really like Phil Jackson just because he is a coach for them. I just based my argument on more plausible grounds then you did. You said Kobe made Pau better and Artest calm. Really? Its far more likely that Phil Jackson is the reason those things happened. Heck, even Andrew Bynum couldve made Pau tougher. Bynum could have also helped Artest calm down. I am not claiming to know that answer. The more plausible idea is that Jackson was more influential person in those changes then Kobe. You claimed the Kobe was the reason behind both of those. That is the difference llperez

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  • #462453
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    If it’s a one on one tourney.  Give me Kobe. If it’s starting a team from scratch, give me Tim Duncan.  The reason Tim’s teams never faded was because it’s hard to find a great big.

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  • #462468
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    If it’s a one on one tourney.  Give me Kobe. If it’s starting a team from scratch, give me Tim Duncan.  The reason Tim’s teams never faded was because it’s hard to find a great big.

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  • #462455
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

     

    you never bashed on kobe? You said he can not lead a team and then brought up his rape on a topic about basketball.

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  • #462470
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

     

    you never bashed on kobe? You said he can not lead a team and then brought up his rape on a topic about basketball.

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  • #462457
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

    Kobe is one of the greatest players to ever play the game!!! He is not a great leader though…although I gave such a great compliment to Kobe Bryant numerous times, you are still saying I bash him??? That is not the case. 

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  • #462472
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

    Kobe is one of the greatest players to ever play the game!!! He is not a great leader though…although I gave such a great compliment to Kobe Bryant numerous times, you are still saying I bash him??? That is not the case. 

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  • #462459
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    no cp33, the difference is if you said " i think phil is more the reason behind pau getting tougher and ron becoming calm", I didnt respond with , "who are you? DO you think you know them? Are you in their heads or something? What you think phil is 100% responsible for everything? God you phil fans me sick and have no rational arguments for anything."

    See how that sounds? Thats how you have been sounding this whole time.

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  • #462474
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    no cp33, the difference is if you said " i think phil is more the reason behind pau getting tougher and ron becoming calm", I didnt respond with , "who are you? DO you think you know them? Are you in their heads or something? What you think phil is 100% responsible for everything? God you phil fans me sick and have no rational arguments for anything."

    See how that sounds? Thats how you have been sounding this whole time.

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  • #462461
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     As time has went on, I have forgiven the fact about the allegations. I do not forgive him for calling Bynum a horrible bball player and demanding trades. Great leaders don’t do that. Thats why I take Duncan over Kobe. He has been a leader far more longer than Kobe has. That is the sole reason I pick him

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  • #462476
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     As time has went on, I have forgiven the fact about the allegations. I do not forgive him for calling Bynum a horrible bball player and demanding trades. Great leaders don’t do that. Thats why I take Duncan over Kobe. He has been a leader far more longer than Kobe has. That is the sole reason I pick him

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  • #462463
    AvatarAvatar
    creepingdef
    Participant

     Thanks cp33. Kobe’s my guy, but I have plenty of respect for what Duncan has done for basketball.

    This might be a bold statement, but I think Derek Fisher didn’t step into a visible leadership role until he joined the Utah Jazz. During the first 3 peat, the leadership centred around Phil Jackson, Shaq and Kobe (who was trying to find his niche as a leader). The real instances of leadership from Fisher were his comeback game with Utah on the same day his daughter had eye surgery, and when he finally rejoined the Lakers. Fisher basically "grounded" Kobe, and Kobe’s said numerous times in interviews that Fisher is often a voice that Kobe turns to. Fisher also went through a maturation process of "glue guy" role player, to unsung leader of a championship team.

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  • #462478
    AvatarAvatar
    creepingdef
    Participant

     Thanks cp33. Kobe’s my guy, but I have plenty of respect for what Duncan has done for basketball.

    This might be a bold statement, but I think Derek Fisher didn’t step into a visible leadership role until he joined the Utah Jazz. During the first 3 peat, the leadership centred around Phil Jackson, Shaq and Kobe (who was trying to find his niche as a leader). The real instances of leadership from Fisher were his comeback game with Utah on the same day his daughter had eye surgery, and when he finally rejoined the Lakers. Fisher basically "grounded" Kobe, and Kobe’s said numerous times in interviews that Fisher is often a voice that Kobe turns to. Fisher also went through a maturation process of "glue guy" role player, to unsung leader of a championship team.

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  • #462465
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     I am not a Phil fan for 1. 2, I never said he was the reason behind anything. I said it is more plausible because he is the coach and is known for that. I never claimed to know anything. You claimed that Kobe did those things. That is the difference llperez

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  • #462480
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     I am not a Phil fan for 1. 2, I never said he was the reason behind anything. I said it is more plausible because he is the coach and is known for that. I never claimed to know anything. You claimed that Kobe did those things. That is the difference llperez

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  • #462467
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    What? I never claimed to know anything either. I gave my opinion and said this is how i feel. You gave your opinion and said that is how you feel. Yet somehow, when we are both discussing who had more of an impact on the plaeyrs and we are both saying "i believe" etc…, you called me out for acting like i know these dudes and actiing like im in their head. I can just as easliy turn that around on you which is stupid though since you, just like me, are pointing out your opinions. Thats has been the difference between us debating.

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  • #462482
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    What? I never claimed to know anything either. I gave my opinion and said this is how i feel. You gave your opinion and said that is how you feel. Yet somehow, when we are both discussing who had more of an impact on the plaeyrs and we are both saying "i believe" etc…, you called me out for acting like i know these dudes and actiing like im in their head. I can just as easliy turn that around on you which is stupid though since you, just like me, are pointing out your opinions. Thats has been the difference between us debating.

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  • #462469
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     llperez…tongue out and I have detracted from our original bias to say that Kobe is a leader of some sorts. Its just that Duncan has been more of a leader for a longer period of time. We gave you reasons why we pick Duncan. Sure we bashed Kobe but your arguments were filled with bashing as well. Its just a common thing in arguments. You have not detracted from your original stance which is good I guess. Wow, did I just compliment you? Lol. Kobe is a great player. We picked our guy and you picked yours. I think that this arguing back and forth will do nothing but create more arguments down the road. Lets agree to disagree. I’m willing to be satisfied with my own arguments and to walk away from this topic. I gave my viewpoint and believe that there is nothing you can say to change my mind. Therefore, this arguing back and forth is useless. Like I said an hour ago. I am done with this argument and I am going to bed.

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  • #462484
    AvatarAvatar
    cp33
    Participant

     llperez…tongue out and I have detracted from our original bias to say that Kobe is a leader of some sorts. Its just that Duncan has been more of a leader for a longer period of time. We gave you reasons why we pick Duncan. Sure we bashed Kobe but your arguments were filled with bashing as well. Its just a common thing in arguments. You have not detracted from your original stance which is good I guess. Wow, did I just compliment you? Lol. Kobe is a great player. We picked our guy and you picked yours. I think that this arguing back and forth will do nothing but create more arguments down the road. Lets agree to disagree. I’m willing to be satisfied with my own arguments and to walk away from this topic. I gave my viewpoint and believe that there is nothing you can say to change my mind. Therefore, this arguing back and forth is useless. Like I said an hour ago. I am done with this argument and I am going to bed.

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  • #462471
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    im not sure where i bashed on tim duncan, but sure. sounds good. We agree to disagree.

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  • #462486
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    im not sure where i bashed on tim duncan, but sure. sounds good. We agree to disagree.

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  • #462473
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    It was fun while it lasted, lol

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  • #462488
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    It was fun while it lasted, lol

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  • #462483
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    one more thing i wanted to add, i never even posted my stance on who i think is a better leader. None of my comments were suggesting kobe is a better leader then duncan. I was only arguing with you guys about your knocks on kobe;s leadership and defending that he is in fact a great leader, at least has become one anyways. Truth is im not sure who is gonna be remembered for being a better leader.

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  • #462498
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    one more thing i wanted to add, i never even posted my stance on who i think is a better leader. None of my comments were suggesting kobe is a better leader then duncan. I was only arguing with you guys about your knocks on kobe;s leadership and defending that he is in fact a great leader, at least has become one anyways. Truth is im not sure who is gonna be remembered for being a better leader.

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  • #462497
    AvatarAvatar
    iguapops420
    Participant

     Tim Duncan planned on leaving SAS to join Grant Hill, and then emerging Tracy McGrady in Orlando, but The Admiral talked him out of it. Both are great but Longevity has to come into play, where Duncan is looking fairly older these days as the spurs have gone to a faster pace letting Parker, Gino, RJ all get out and run. Duncan can no loger be a prime #1 for an entire game. He now has to do it in small spurts.Kobe has a chance to be the G.O.A.T, and Timmy the best pf of all time. It’s like choosing between Hakeem and Mike. Plus seems to me that both players have been winners there entire career. And for whichever previous poster said that Kobe couldn’t lead a team, seems to me he just led them to 2 back to 2 back titles. Duncan ever accomplished that? Both great top 3 at their respective positions, but I’ll take Kobe 10 times out of 10.

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  • #462512
    AvatarAvatar
    iguapops420
    Participant

     Tim Duncan planned on leaving SAS to join Grant Hill, and then emerging Tracy McGrady in Orlando, but The Admiral talked him out of it. Both are great but Longevity has to come into play, where Duncan is looking fairly older these days as the spurs have gone to a faster pace letting Parker, Gino, RJ all get out and run. Duncan can no loger be a prime #1 for an entire game. He now has to do it in small spurts.Kobe has a chance to be the G.O.A.T, and Timmy the best pf of all time. It’s like choosing between Hakeem and Mike. Plus seems to me that both players have been winners there entire career. And for whichever previous poster said that Kobe couldn’t lead a team, seems to me he just led them to 2 back to 2 back titles. Duncan ever accomplished that? Both great top 3 at their respective positions, but I’ll take Kobe 10 times out of 10.

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  • #462501
    AvatarAvatar
    TooNice4TV
    Participant

    Just to throw it out, does anyone remember Kobe demanding a trade out of LA because HE couldn’t get his team going? Everyone loves Kobe now after his success, but I’ve heard quite a bit and looked at him differently when his team success went downhill. I loved the Kobe who just played his game when he was younger, putting all his talk on the court.

    I’ve never had any negative things to say about Tim Duncan. Through all the changes he’s had from his rookie year until now, he’s one of the most professional players we’ve ever had in the game.

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  • #462516
    AvatarAvatar
    TooNice4TV
    Participant

    Just to throw it out, does anyone remember Kobe demanding a trade out of LA because HE couldn’t get his team going? Everyone loves Kobe now after his success, but I’ve heard quite a bit and looked at him differently when his team success went downhill. I loved the Kobe who just played his game when he was younger, putting all his talk on the court.

    I’ve never had any negative things to say about Tim Duncan. Through all the changes he’s had from his rookie year until now, he’s one of the most professional players we’ve ever had in the game.

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  • #462517
    AvatarAvatar
    Blazermann
    Participant

     your fncking crazy and fncking bias lol but saying that i would take kobe for the rings now isnt the game abt that? kobe may go down as the second greatest sg but TD is the best power foward to step on to the nba court imo

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  • #462532
    AvatarAvatar
    Blazermann
    Participant

     your fncking crazy and fncking bias lol but saying that i would take kobe for the rings now isnt the game abt that? kobe may go down as the second greatest sg but TD is the best power foward to step on to the nba court imo

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  • #462545
    AvatarAvatar
    mj23mj23bestever
    Participant

    im pretty sure kobe is a fantastic leader and agree wiht llperez that if u dont think so u have no basketball cred with me at all now as for who id take to bulit a team i would take timmy he is an absloute coaches and teammates dream great leader and a model citizen to lead your franchise now im not knocking kobe at all i love his game he is one of the best ever but imo id take big fun over him to build my franchise

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  • #462560
    AvatarAvatar
    mj23mj23bestever
    Participant

    im pretty sure kobe is a fantastic leader and agree wiht llperez that if u dont think so u have no basketball cred with me at all now as for who id take to bulit a team i would take timmy he is an absloute coaches and teammates dream great leader and a model citizen to lead your franchise now im not knocking kobe at all i love his game he is one of the best ever but imo id take big fun over him to build my franchise

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  • #462549
    AvatarAvatar
    BothTeamsPlayedHard
    Participant

    "Who was Better? Who was easier to build around? Who would you start a title team with? Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant?"

    Kobe was a better talent, but there is a reason the cast around Tim Duncan has been interchangeable with the results basically staying the same. He is easier to play with, and is dominant at a position that is generally more important to be dominant.

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  • #462564
    AvatarAvatar
    BothTeamsPlayedHard
    Participant

    "Who was Better? Who was easier to build around? Who would you start a title team with? Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant?"

    Kobe was a better talent, but there is a reason the cast around Tim Duncan has been interchangeable with the results basically staying the same. He is easier to play with, and is dominant at a position that is generally more important to be dominant.

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  • #462559
    AvatarAvatar
    Toronto16
    Participant

    I’m biased, cause I’ll always take a big man over a guard.

     

    Unless that guards last name is Jordan…..

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  • #462574
    AvatarAvatar
    Toronto16
    Participant

    I’m biased, cause I’ll always take a big man over a guard.

     

    Unless that guards last name is Jordan…..

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  • #462561
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Tim Duncan: 4 rings as alpha dog

    Kobe: 2 rings as alpha dog, 3 as Shaq’s son.

     

    Not even an argument. TD is the best PF of alltime, Kobe isnt the best SG of alltime. Its because TD isnt a guard, and plays in a small market that no one talks about this guy as an alltime great. Huge mistake by those people, too.

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  • #462576
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Tim Duncan: 4 rings as alpha dog

    Kobe: 2 rings as alpha dog, 3 as Shaq’s son.

     

    Not even an argument. TD is the best PF of alltime, Kobe isnt the best SG of alltime. Its because TD isnt a guard, and plays in a small market that no one talks about this guy as an alltime great. Huge mistake by those people, too.

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  • #462563
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    " Tell me that duncan or anyone would have won with a starting 5 of luke walton, kwame brown, lamar odom and smuch parker and no bench? "

     

    Lebron got a team like that to 66 wins, as opposed to Kobe barely getting into the postseason before LITTERALLY quitting in game 7 vs PHX.

     

    Yea, Kobes a great leader. First off, he wasnt the leader for the first 3 titles. And the "2nd phase" of his career was just his teams being mediocre and failures. Then, in acquiring the best PF in the league, he rose to the occasion.

    Its funny how Kobe hasnt won an NBA title without the best bigman in the league on his team. Duncan’s 2nd options were a washed up Robinson in 99, a young Tony Parker in 03, Ginobli in 05 and Parker again in 07. Duncan was the man. Kobe was nothing more than a sidekick. Even his two alpha dog titles….the first was against an Orlando team that had no business being in the finals, the 2nd he put up an alltime stinker in game 7. This guy is not better than Duncan. Its not even reasonably arguable when you look at it unbiasly. Notice how LAKER fans are the ONLY ones who think Kobe is better than Duncan.

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  • #462578
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    " Tell me that duncan or anyone would have won with a starting 5 of luke walton, kwame brown, lamar odom and smuch parker and no bench? "

     

    Lebron got a team like that to 66 wins, as opposed to Kobe barely getting into the postseason before LITTERALLY quitting in game 7 vs PHX.

     

    Yea, Kobes a great leader. First off, he wasnt the leader for the first 3 titles. And the "2nd phase" of his career was just his teams being mediocre and failures. Then, in acquiring the best PF in the league, he rose to the occasion.

    Its funny how Kobe hasnt won an NBA title without the best bigman in the league on his team. Duncan’s 2nd options were a washed up Robinson in 99, a young Tony Parker in 03, Ginobli in 05 and Parker again in 07. Duncan was the man. Kobe was nothing more than a sidekick. Even his two alpha dog titles….the first was against an Orlando team that had no business being in the finals, the 2nd he put up an alltime stinker in game 7. This guy is not better than Duncan. Its not even reasonably arguable when you look at it unbiasly. Notice how LAKER fans are the ONLY ones who think Kobe is better than Duncan.

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  • #462596
    AvatarAvatar
    RUDEBOY_
    Participant

    Duncan might be the most consistent player in league history…There havent been many players that came into the NBA and made 1st team ALL NBA as a rookie….But there are those that will say Shaq was more dominate than Duncan…And there are those that will say Kobe rode Shaq’s coattail to a few rings…So was Shaq better than Duncan & Kobe?

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  • #462581
    AvatarAvatar
    RUDEBOY_
    Participant

    Duncan might be the most consistent player in league history…There havent been many players that came into the NBA and made 1st team ALL NBA as a rookie….But there are those that will say Shaq was more dominate than Duncan…And there are those that will say Kobe rode Shaq’s coattail to a few rings…So was Shaq better than Duncan & Kobe?

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  • #462599
    AvatarAvatar
    Malik-Universal
    Participant

    without shaq kobe wouldnt have gotten those first 3 rings, and without kobe shaq wouldnt have gotten his first 3 rings either…. so plain and simple.., true shaq was the leader of that team, kobe was the robin, but is that kobes fault???

     

    its very hard to compare duncan and kobe… both guys play different positions, and were in different situations… different styles of play, etc.   i will say this, from the years 98-2005, give me duncan, from the years 2006-present, give me kobe

    and saying kobe cant lead a team…… R U INSANE???!!!! maybe because winning two championships in a row as the teams leader isnt like a big deal… okay…

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  • #462614
    AvatarAvatar
    Malik-Universal
    Participant

    without shaq kobe wouldnt have gotten those first 3 rings, and without kobe shaq wouldnt have gotten his first 3 rings either…. so plain and simple.., true shaq was the leader of that team, kobe was the robin, but is that kobes fault???

     

    its very hard to compare duncan and kobe… both guys play different positions, and were in different situations… different styles of play, etc.   i will say this, from the years 98-2005, give me duncan, from the years 2006-present, give me kobe

    and saying kobe cant lead a team…… R U INSANE???!!!! maybe because winning two championships in a row as the teams leader isnt like a big deal… okay…

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  • #462601
    AvatarAvatar
    Malik-Universal
    Participant

    @urbanoreverything

    kobe made gasol the best PF in the nba

    gasol wasnt near the best PF in the league when he first came to LA

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  • #462616
    AvatarAvatar
    Malik-Universal
    Participant

    @urbanoreverything

    kobe made gasol the best PF in the nba

    gasol wasnt near the best PF in the league when he first came to LA

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  • #462613
    AvatarAvatar
    Mel
    Participant

     He was of course older and more ready when he entered the NBA but from Day 1, a cornerstone.

    Kobe was a sidekick, its not debatable. He was the #2 guy for the 3-peat.

    Duncan was an All-Star his ROOKIE season. All-NBA for pretty much every season, save for one or two injury-plagued seasons.

    Duncan will never get the credit he rightly deserves, maybe because he doesnt yell, bark, or make a fool of himself off the court like others have. 

    He will be remembered for Winning from day 1 and being the anchor for 4 titles.

    As great as Kobe is, he is on the record for demanding a trade, Colorado tarnished his squeaky clean image, and the 2004 season that led to the Shaq trade and the mediocre seasons from 05-07 where he averaged 30+

     

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  • #462628
    AvatarAvatar
    Mel
    Participant

     He was of course older and more ready when he entered the NBA but from Day 1, a cornerstone.

    Kobe was a sidekick, its not debatable. He was the #2 guy for the 3-peat.

    Duncan was an All-Star his ROOKIE season. All-NBA for pretty much every season, save for one or two injury-plagued seasons.

    Duncan will never get the credit he rightly deserves, maybe because he doesnt yell, bark, or make a fool of himself off the court like others have. 

    He will be remembered for Winning from day 1 and being the anchor for 4 titles.

    As great as Kobe is, he is on the record for demanding a trade, Colorado tarnished his squeaky clean image, and the 2004 season that led to the Shaq trade and the mediocre seasons from 05-07 where he averaged 30+

     

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  • #462641
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    I agree about Gasol, but that has alot to do with the fact memphis was bad. Kobe bryant has never been a player who makes others around him better, except the part where the defense is keying on bryant. So though Kobe opened up some looks for Gasol, its not like Kobe was feeding him the ball. Also, Shaq O Neal was the best player on the planet 00-02. He could have won the title with other elite swingmen, Kobe was not winning those 3 with any other big man.

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  • #462656
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    I agree about Gasol, but that has alot to do with the fact memphis was bad. Kobe bryant has never been a player who makes others around him better, except the part where the defense is keying on bryant. So though Kobe opened up some looks for Gasol, its not like Kobe was feeding him the ball. Also, Shaq O Neal was the best player on the planet 00-02. He could have won the title with other elite swingmen, Kobe was not winning those 3 with any other big man.

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  • #462647
    AvatarAvatar
    NYK2010
    Participant

    Kobe made Gasol the best PF in the game no yeah he helped though.  When Gasol came to the Lakers he was 27 and playing on an below avg. Grizzlies team at the age of 27.  Now he’s 30 playing on a team stacked with talent.

    You could say the Lakers coaching and system helped, all the experts say Gasol fit like a glove into the system.

    Watch Gasol’s skills, footwork, passing and offensive aresenal etc. that has nothing to do with Kobe.

    Gasol is a great rebounder what does that have to do with Kobe he averages 5 asts a game not 8 or 10.  We all know Kobe is a great player but he doesn’t make Gasol the best PF in the league.

    Kobe really makes role player much better, Kobe is a great player becaz of his scoring and clutch shot mainly not becaz of his passing, rebounding and intangibles.  I get the feeling some Kobe fans think he’s the greatest of all time, if so your wrong.  You probably haven’t seen the best players in the game during their prime years.  Don’t just go by rings all the best players have multiple rings.

    The Jazz did the right thing in letting Fisher out of his contract but its just another way the Lakers were helped out the Gasol trade was another.

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  • #462662
    AvatarAvatar
    NYK2010
    Participant

    Kobe made Gasol the best PF in the game no yeah he helped though.  When Gasol came to the Lakers he was 27 and playing on an below avg. Grizzlies team at the age of 27.  Now he’s 30 playing on a team stacked with talent.

    You could say the Lakers coaching and system helped, all the experts say Gasol fit like a glove into the system.

    Watch Gasol’s skills, footwork, passing and offensive aresenal etc. that has nothing to do with Kobe.

    Gasol is a great rebounder what does that have to do with Kobe he averages 5 asts a game not 8 or 10.  We all know Kobe is a great player but he doesn’t make Gasol the best PF in the league.

    Kobe really makes role player much better, Kobe is a great player becaz of his scoring and clutch shot mainly not becaz of his passing, rebounding and intangibles.  I get the feeling some Kobe fans think he’s the greatest of all time, if so your wrong.  You probably haven’t seen the best players in the game during their prime years.  Don’t just go by rings all the best players have multiple rings.

    The Jazz did the right thing in letting Fisher out of his contract but its just another way the Lakers were helped out the Gasol trade was another.

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  • #462655
    AvatarAvatar
    Jlv2010

    Tim Duncan all day.  Kobe is too immature.

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  • #462670
    AvatarAvatar
    Jlv2010

    Tim Duncan all day.  Kobe is too immature.

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  • #462673
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Also, LL

     

    Duncan played with two all star BUT Kobe played with hall of famers. First off, Parker was never a top 3 point guard in the NBA. Manu ( so far this season) has never been a top 3 SG until this season. Kobe played with Shaq.

    That means Kobe played with a top 10 all time player…

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  • #462688
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Also, LL

     

    Duncan played with two all star BUT Kobe played with hall of famers. First off, Parker was never a top 3 point guard in the NBA. Manu ( so far this season) has never been a top 3 SG until this season. Kobe played with Shaq.

    That means Kobe played with a top 10 all time player…

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  • #462675
    AvatarAvatar
    Steroid
    Participant

    I’m confused here.. Is this a debate on who is a better player or better leader here?

    Just because Duncan is a better leader doesn’t make him the better player.

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  • #462690
    AvatarAvatar
    Steroid
    Participant

    I’m confused here.. Is this a debate on who is a better player or better leader here?

    Just because Duncan is a better leader doesn’t make him the better player.

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  • #462687
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    No, better player is the debate.

     

    I said Duncan was the better player and the eaiser player to build around.

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  • #462702
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    No, better player is the debate.

     

    I said Duncan was the better player and the eaiser player to build around.

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  • #462689
    AvatarAvatar
    iguapops420
    Participant

     Kobe Bryant is still the Alpha Dog of his team. Still an elite player. Can anyone say anything about that. And I’ve been looking for the exact quote, but Pops himself was quoted as saying that Kobe Bryant is the best leader in the game. As did Alvin Gentry and Doc Rivers. I think NBA players and coaches have a little better idea about this stuff.

    Tim Duncan has played with Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, Richard Jefferson, and David Robinson. So two of the greatest European’s to ever play in the NBA and a top 10 center of all time. Yeah Duncan has never played with anybody. 

    Don’t even get me started on 05-07. Lebron could win with those guys i beg to differ. The man has played with 4 players who had been all-stars in the past 4 years. Kwame Brown was possibly the biggest bust of all time, Smush Parker was able to look like a stud at times and was out of the league when he played with bron and was back out after he left Kobe and joined Wade. And Kobe at least was out there in game 7 against the Suns TRYING to do something such as creating for others. He got the team there and the Suns were able to just play off of guys. When you have two 12th men and a D-Leaguer starting, while having Brian Cook and Sasha Vujacic as key role players, you probably should have never been there to begin. Kobe exceeded all odds that year. 

    Everyone wants to talk about Duncan as if he’s still a 20-10 guy when he just isn’t.No one wants to account for the fact that father time is truely starting to show with Timmy to the point that he’s commenting on it. Was michael Jordan not a great leader, because he posses the EXACT leadership qualities that Kobe does, even more so to the point that he ACTUALLY punched Steve Kerr.

    Last  thought, what was the point in even trying to bring Lebron up when he himself will tell you he’s no Kobe.

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  • #462704
    AvatarAvatar
    iguapops420
    Participant

     Kobe Bryant is still the Alpha Dog of his team. Still an elite player. Can anyone say anything about that. And I’ve been looking for the exact quote, but Pops himself was quoted as saying that Kobe Bryant is the best leader in the game. As did Alvin Gentry and Doc Rivers. I think NBA players and coaches have a little better idea about this stuff.

    Tim Duncan has played with Tony Parker, Manu Ginobli, Richard Jefferson, and David Robinson. So two of the greatest European’s to ever play in the NBA and a top 10 center of all time. Yeah Duncan has never played with anybody. 

    Don’t even get me started on 05-07. Lebron could win with those guys i beg to differ. The man has played with 4 players who had been all-stars in the past 4 years. Kwame Brown was possibly the biggest bust of all time, Smush Parker was able to look like a stud at times and was out of the league when he played with bron and was back out after he left Kobe and joined Wade. And Kobe at least was out there in game 7 against the Suns TRYING to do something such as creating for others. He got the team there and the Suns were able to just play off of guys. When you have two 12th men and a D-Leaguer starting, while having Brian Cook and Sasha Vujacic as key role players, you probably should have never been there to begin. Kobe exceeded all odds that year. 

    Everyone wants to talk about Duncan as if he’s still a 20-10 guy when he just isn’t.No one wants to account for the fact that father time is truely starting to show with Timmy to the point that he’s commenting on it. Was michael Jordan not a great leader, because he posses the EXACT leadership qualities that Kobe does, even more so to the point that he ACTUALLY punched Steve Kerr.

    Last  thought, what was the point in even trying to bring Lebron up when he himself will tell you he’s no Kobe.

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  • #462691
    AvatarAvatar
    Sonny Red
    Participant

    I have to go with Kobe, his drive and killer instinct is unmatched in todays NBA. The man lives and breathes basketball and will do anything to win. He is also one of the most clutch players to ever play in the NBA, there is not one guy in the league right now I’d rather have taking the last shot. When he wins another ring this year it will cement his place as greatest of all time, in my opinion. I still say the early 2000 years Shaq had were the most dominating I’ve ever seen. There was no one who could come close to stopping him, the way he could get off the ground so fast at his size was unreal. He made Dikembe Mutombo look like a child in the finals they played against the Sixers, and that was when Mutombo was considered a game changing defensive player, and winning all types of awards for it.

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  • #462706
    AvatarAvatar
    Sonny Red
    Participant

    I have to go with Kobe, his drive and killer instinct is unmatched in todays NBA. The man lives and breathes basketball and will do anything to win. He is also one of the most clutch players to ever play in the NBA, there is not one guy in the league right now I’d rather have taking the last shot. When he wins another ring this year it will cement his place as greatest of all time, in my opinion. I still say the early 2000 years Shaq had were the most dominating I’ve ever seen. There was no one who could come close to stopping him, the way he could get off the ground so fast at his size was unreal. He made Dikembe Mutombo look like a child in the finals they played against the Sixers, and that was when Mutombo was considered a game changing defensive player, and winning all types of awards for it.

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  • #462693
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    First off, Duncan played with a AGING Robinson. Let’s not act like he was in his 20’s bruh. Tony Parker didn’t come on until 2004 playoffs ( Proved by the fact the Spurs were willing to move Parker for Jason Kidd) and Manu was always good not great until 2007 ( always stepped up in the playoffs)

     

    Kobe played with a in prime Shaq. So ALL of Duncan’s part in his titles years were NOT better then Shaq.

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  • #462708
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    First off, Duncan played with a AGING Robinson. Let’s not act like he was in his 20’s bruh. Tony Parker didn’t come on until 2004 playoffs ( Proved by the fact the Spurs were willing to move Parker for Jason Kidd) and Manu was always good not great until 2007 ( always stepped up in the playoffs)

     

    Kobe played with a in prime Shaq. So ALL of Duncan’s part in his titles years were NOT better then Shaq.

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  • #462721
    AvatarAvatar
    andxxx
    Participant

     I would start a team with Duncan, but I have to give Kobe being the better player he has lasted longer and has more championships with possibly a few more to come

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  • #462736
    AvatarAvatar
    andxxx
    Participant

     I would start a team with Duncan, but I have to give Kobe being the better player he has lasted longer and has more championships with possibly a few more to come

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  • #462743
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    "Kobe was a better talent, but there is a reason the cast around Tim Duncan has been interchangeable with the results basically staying the same."

    The cast around Tim Duncan has been interchangeable, but the core has remained intact. Greg Poppovich, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli. Duncan has never gone through a true rebuilding mode. The Spurs have just kept surrounding their Big Three with quality role players who fit the team’s system.

    Kobe and the Lakers went through a rebuilding mode. Does anybody remember Chris Mihm, Marcus Banks, Chucky Atkins, Kwame Brown, Laron Profit, Brian Cook and Vladmir Radmanovic? What about Jumaine Jones and Tierre Brown? I know y’all remember Smush Parker. From 2004-2007, Kobe’s supporting cast was terrible, yet he led that team to the playoffs 2/3 times.

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  • #462758
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    "Kobe was a better talent, but there is a reason the cast around Tim Duncan has been interchangeable with the results basically staying the same."

    The cast around Tim Duncan has been interchangeable, but the core has remained intact. Greg Poppovich, Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli. Duncan has never gone through a true rebuilding mode. The Spurs have just kept surrounding their Big Three with quality role players who fit the team’s system.

    Kobe and the Lakers went through a rebuilding mode. Does anybody remember Chris Mihm, Marcus Banks, Chucky Atkins, Kwame Brown, Laron Profit, Brian Cook and Vladmir Radmanovic? What about Jumaine Jones and Tierre Brown? I know y’all remember Smush Parker. From 2004-2007, Kobe’s supporting cast was terrible, yet he led that team to the playoffs 2/3 times.

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  • #462749
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    I understand that Indiana but Duncan never played with another top 10 guy. I’d argue had he play with a Ray Allen, he would have had more titles. The main 3 were in tact but they lost a couple players they needed over the years in ( David Robinson, Malik Rose, Stephen Jackson) AND they had many "last run" guys in Steve Smith, Danny Ferry, Steve Kerr, Kevin Willis.

    I’ll say this, look at Parker’s and Manu’s numbers, there alright. Once they hit thier primes, they only won 2 titles. Why? You can have 3 dudes but the role players have been tough to put around Duncan. When I look at Kobe, I don’t see that. I see "We need a star next to him". I feel if he took Shaq from Kobe, we’d argue he wasn’t as good as we think.

     

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  • #462764
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    I understand that Indiana but Duncan never played with another top 10 guy. I’d argue had he play with a Ray Allen, he would have had more titles. The main 3 were in tact but they lost a couple players they needed over the years in ( David Robinson, Malik Rose, Stephen Jackson) AND they had many "last run" guys in Steve Smith, Danny Ferry, Steve Kerr, Kevin Willis.

    I’ll say this, look at Parker’s and Manu’s numbers, there alright. Once they hit thier primes, they only won 2 titles. Why? You can have 3 dudes but the role players have been tough to put around Duncan. When I look at Kobe, I don’t see that. I see "We need a star next to him". I feel if he took Shaq from Kobe, we’d argue he wasn’t as good as we think.

     

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  • #462751
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Much respect to Kobe, but it’s odd to me how he couldn’t really be successful without another superstar around him.

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  • #462766
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Much respect to Kobe, but it’s odd to me how he couldn’t really be successful without another superstar around him.

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  • #462755
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    Let’s just ignore that Tim Duncan played with David Robinson, a Hall of Famer, for the first six years of his NBA career. And I also don’t think you’re giving Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli due credit. Tony Parker is an NBA Finals MVP.

    And let’s be real here… Pau Gasol wasn’t a superstar when he was traded to the Lakers. He was an All-Star caliber big man, but not an superstar. Another thing to note, is that the Lakers were the best team in the West before they made that trade.

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  • #462770
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    Let’s just ignore that Tim Duncan played with David Robinson, a Hall of Famer, for the first six years of his NBA career. And I also don’t think you’re giving Tony Parker and Manu Ginobli due credit. Tony Parker is an NBA Finals MVP.

    And let’s be real here… Pau Gasol wasn’t a superstar when he was traded to the Lakers. He was an All-Star caliber big man, but not an superstar. Another thing to note, is that the Lakers were the best team in the West before they made that trade.

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  • #462767
    AvatarAvatar
    andxxx
    Participant

     IndianaBasketball I seriously doubt the Lakers would have made it as far as they did without Gasol

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  • #462782
    AvatarAvatar
    andxxx
    Participant

     IndianaBasketball I seriously doubt the Lakers would have made it as far as they did without Gasol

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  • #462769
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Pau Gasol proved to be a all star. He was a legit 20-10 big. To me, Pau is a hall of famer and a top 100 player all time right now. Pau lead Memphis to 50 wins seasons and playoff berths with Shane Battier, Mike Miller and Jay Williams as his 2-3-4. Don’t underrate Gasol.

    David Robinson was declining. He was 32 when Duncan came into the league and QUICKLY fell into the background once they won the title in 1999 and Duncan got Finals MVP. I gave Manu credit. I just wonder what would have happened if he came in at 23 instead of 26. He was good offensively late but isn’t a great defender late. Parker didn’t come on until 2004, he was alright in 03 but the Spurs did throw money to Jason Kidd so he didn’t impress early. Parker honestly got confident and KILLED Nash in their playoff series which got him respect. He’s good.

    If you swap Shaq with a guy on Manu or Parker’s level: Do the Lakers win ONE title? Do they get to a title? I don’t think so. That’s the thing, without Robinson: Duncan still wins the 99 title and 03 title. Robinson was a piece but Duncan was the MAN who lead them to title. Shaq was the MDE while Kobe was the Robin in LA.

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  • #462784
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Pau Gasol proved to be a all star. He was a legit 20-10 big. To me, Pau is a hall of famer and a top 100 player all time right now. Pau lead Memphis to 50 wins seasons and playoff berths with Shane Battier, Mike Miller and Jay Williams as his 2-3-4. Don’t underrate Gasol.

    David Robinson was declining. He was 32 when Duncan came into the league and QUICKLY fell into the background once they won the title in 1999 and Duncan got Finals MVP. I gave Manu credit. I just wonder what would have happened if he came in at 23 instead of 26. He was good offensively late but isn’t a great defender late. Parker didn’t come on until 2004, he was alright in 03 but the Spurs did throw money to Jason Kidd so he didn’t impress early. Parker honestly got confident and KILLED Nash in their playoff series which got him respect. He’s good.

    If you swap Shaq with a guy on Manu or Parker’s level: Do the Lakers win ONE title? Do they get to a title? I don’t think so. That’s the thing, without Robinson: Duncan still wins the 99 title and 03 title. Robinson was a piece but Duncan was the MAN who lead them to title. Shaq was the MDE while Kobe was the Robin in LA.

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  • #462771
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    @Urbanovreverything

    You should just stop and remove yourself from this conversation. Your opinions are biased. You clearly must dislike Kobe.

    A washed up Robinson in 99? IF you call averaging 16 points, 10 rebounds and over 2 blocks washed up, then I don’t know what to tell you.

    "Even his two alpha dog titles….the first was against an Orlando team that had no business being in the finals"

    Seriously lol? But you’re ignoring the title the Spurs won against the 8th seeded Knicks in the lockout season??? And you’re ignoring the title vs the Cavs, who came out of a terrible Eastern Conference?

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  • #462786
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    @Urbanovreverything

    You should just stop and remove yourself from this conversation. Your opinions are biased. You clearly must dislike Kobe.

    A washed up Robinson in 99? IF you call averaging 16 points, 10 rebounds and over 2 blocks washed up, then I don’t know what to tell you.

    "Even his two alpha dog titles….the first was against an Orlando team that had no business being in the finals"

    Seriously lol? But you’re ignoring the title the Spurs won against the 8th seeded Knicks in the lockout season??? And you’re ignoring the title vs the Cavs, who came out of a terrible Eastern Conference?

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  • #462773
    AvatarAvatar
    iguapops420
    Participant

     Kobe had Shaq and the merry minimums in the first three peat. And let’s not act as if it was all Shaq and Kobe was just a  side note. Kobe was putting up 30, 7, and 6 in those years. He was just as important to that title run as Shaq seeing as though it was Kobe out there making play. Are you going to act as if Ginobli isn’t as impactful as Pau. 

    Tony parker has made all star teams and even a finals appearance. Why? because it was HIM, not Duncan who was the reason they won it that year. Like someone said, Duncan has had the same core of himself and two all stars. The best Kobe was given was an inconsistent Lamar Odom who time and time again failed to live up to expectations and a Caron Butler who was at the time by no means ready to compete for a title. 

    Pau Gasol became great with Kobe. His teams were never terrible save for the year he was traded. Consistently the Grizlies were around 4-6 seed but yet could never get a SINGLE playoff victory. Eddie Jones,Shane Battier, Mighty Mouse, James Posey, Lorenzen Wright, Jason Williams prime, and a few others i can’t think of right off hand. Pau Gasol NEEDED a Kobe to lead him. Now after a few years with Bryant, Gasol has become a 2 time defending champ, 3 finals appearances and even a mild mean streak.

    Back to Duncan, and co., yes the Admiral wasn’t Exactly prime any longer, but he WAS an above avg. starting big. Stephen Jackson, Hedo Turkoglu, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobli. All All stars who have played with Tim in their Primes.

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  • #462788
    AvatarAvatar
    iguapops420
    Participant

     Kobe had Shaq and the merry minimums in the first three peat. And let’s not act as if it was all Shaq and Kobe was just a  side note. Kobe was putting up 30, 7, and 6 in those years. He was just as important to that title run as Shaq seeing as though it was Kobe out there making play. Are you going to act as if Ginobli isn’t as impactful as Pau. 

    Tony parker has made all star teams and even a finals appearance. Why? because it was HIM, not Duncan who was the reason they won it that year. Like someone said, Duncan has had the same core of himself and two all stars. The best Kobe was given was an inconsistent Lamar Odom who time and time again failed to live up to expectations and a Caron Butler who was at the time by no means ready to compete for a title. 

    Pau Gasol became great with Kobe. His teams were never terrible save for the year he was traded. Consistently the Grizlies were around 4-6 seed but yet could never get a SINGLE playoff victory. Eddie Jones,Shane Battier, Mighty Mouse, James Posey, Lorenzen Wright, Jason Williams prime, and a few others i can’t think of right off hand. Pau Gasol NEEDED a Kobe to lead him. Now after a few years with Bryant, Gasol has become a 2 time defending champ, 3 finals appearances and even a mild mean streak.

    Back to Duncan, and co., yes the Admiral wasn’t Exactly prime any longer, but he WAS an above avg. starting big. Stephen Jackson, Hedo Turkoglu, Tony Parker, and Manu Ginobli. All All stars who have played with Tim in their Primes.

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  • #462775
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    how do you know kobe couldnt be succesful without another superstar? He only had 3 seasons of not having another superstyar, and he didnt even have a team. FOrget superstars, give him just a decent cast and who knows what kobe could have done. Has duncan ver won without all-stars aorund him? Nope, so shy should we judge kobe without all-stars so harshly? Oh yeah, and for the 100th time, kobe had the lakers in first place BEFORE the pau trade went down.

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  • #462790
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    how do you know kobe couldnt be succesful without another superstar? He only had 3 seasons of not having another superstyar, and he didnt even have a team. FOrget superstars, give him just a decent cast and who knows what kobe could have done. Has duncan ver won without all-stars aorund him? Nope, so shy should we judge kobe without all-stars so harshly? Oh yeah, and for the 100th time, kobe had the lakers in first place BEFORE the pau trade went down.

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  • #462777
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    @andxxx

    Of course they wouldn’t have, especially when you consider Andrew Bynum went down with a knee injury. Of course, Pau Gasol made them a better team.

    However, Gasol wasn’t a superstar before he was traded to the Lakers nor at any point during that season.

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  • #462792
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    @andxxx

    Of course they wouldn’t have, especially when you consider Andrew Bynum went down with a knee injury. Of course, Pau Gasol made them a better team.

    However, Gasol wasn’t a superstar before he was traded to the Lakers nor at any point during that season.

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  • #462779
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    the spurs thourhghout the 90’s with david robinson leading them between 1990-1996 won 67% of their games. They were one of the most stable frnachises and well run frnchises out there. Duncan joined a great franchise that was already a winner and he took it over and alaways had help around him at every point in his career. The only time kobe wasnt as succesful was when he had no help, somehting duncan can never say he went through.

    And like i brought up earlier. Tim hasnt won a single playoff game past the first round in the last 2 seasons while kobe is winning titles. Or do we just cut this whole debate off as soon as tim started slowing down?

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  • #462794
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    the spurs thourhghout the 90’s with david robinson leading them between 1990-1996 won 67% of their games. They were one of the most stable frnachises and well run frnchises out there. Duncan joined a great franchise that was already a winner and he took it over and alaways had help around him at every point in his career. The only time kobe wasnt as succesful was when he had no help, somehting duncan can never say he went through.

    And like i brought up earlier. Tim hasnt won a single playoff game past the first round in the last 2 seasons while kobe is winning titles. Or do we just cut this whole debate off as soon as tim started slowing down?

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  • #462781
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    kincksboy, you say robinson quickly faded away after that first title but in the very next playoffs i believe robinson averaged like 24 and 12 rebounds. NOt bad.

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  • #462796
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    kincksboy, you say robinson quickly faded away after that first title but in the very next playoffs i believe robinson averaged like 24 and 12 rebounds. NOt bad.

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  • #462783
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    Duncan is probably the greatest power forward ever (Malone is right there though) and there’s nothing wrong with picking him over Kobe, but let’s try to make sense.

    IF you’d have swapped Shaq with a big man at the All-Star caliber level of Ginobli or Parker, I still think Kobe gets a title. And to be honest, I think that’s what Pau was when he was traded to the Lakers. Just an All-Star caliber big man. He wasn’t anything special. He didn’t enter superstar discussion (I still don’t think he’s a bonafied superstar) until he teamed up with Kobe and Phil. It’s EASY to see that Kobe and Phil have rubbed off on him. He’s a much better player since playing for Memphis and in the 2008 Finals.

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  • #462798
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    Duncan is probably the greatest power forward ever (Malone is right there though) and there’s nothing wrong with picking him over Kobe, but let’s try to make sense.

    IF you’d have swapped Shaq with a big man at the All-Star caliber level of Ginobli or Parker, I still think Kobe gets a title. And to be honest, I think that’s what Pau was when he was traded to the Lakers. Just an All-Star caliber big man. He wasn’t anything special. He didn’t enter superstar discussion (I still don’t think he’s a bonafied superstar) until he teamed up with Kobe and Phil. It’s EASY to see that Kobe and Phil have rubbed off on him. He’s a much better player since playing for Memphis and in the 2008 Finals.

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  • #462789
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Robinson averaged 20-12 in a 4 game series. Come on now.

     

    Yes, Kobe is pulling in titles with a SUPERSTAR cast. Artest, Odom, Gasol, Bynum, Brown as that 2-6? Any team would win a title with that. Without that superstar cast, Kobe couldn’t pull off 50 wins.

     

    Like real talk, Kobe needs a star next to him. Duncan didn’t. I don’t know how that’s not set in stone.

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  • #462804
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Robinson averaged 20-12 in a 4 game series. Come on now.

     

    Yes, Kobe is pulling in titles with a SUPERSTAR cast. Artest, Odom, Gasol, Bynum, Brown as that 2-6? Any team would win a title with that. Without that superstar cast, Kobe couldn’t pull off 50 wins.

     

    Like real talk, Kobe needs a star next to him. Duncan didn’t. I don’t know how that’s not set in stone.

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  • #462791
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    And LOL at the fool who said Kobe can’t lead a team.

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  • #462806
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    And LOL at the fool who said Kobe can’t lead a team.

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  • #462793
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    knicksboy, kobe has stars around him. SO does tim. I dont get where you are going with that argument. Sure shaq is a better teammate then duncan ever had, but kobe also never had anything close to a third option all-star in his earlier days. Robert horry was probably the third best player on those earlier teams. Tim has another all-star as his third best teammate. Some are saying manu is the mvp of the nba right now. Parker was a top 5 pg and won the finals mvp award. 1 superstar (if you wanna call pau a superstar) vs having 2 all-stars (parker and manu). Seems pretty even to me. Also, when kobe has a superstar next to him, he has gone further in the playoffs every year but once (2003).

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  • #462808
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    knicksboy, kobe has stars around him. SO does tim. I dont get where you are going with that argument. Sure shaq is a better teammate then duncan ever had, but kobe also never had anything close to a third option all-star in his earlier days. Robert horry was probably the third best player on those earlier teams. Tim has another all-star as his third best teammate. Some are saying manu is the mvp of the nba right now. Parker was a top 5 pg and won the finals mvp award. 1 superstar (if you wanna call pau a superstar) vs having 2 all-stars (parker and manu). Seems pretty even to me. Also, when kobe has a superstar next to him, he has gone further in the playoffs every year but once (2003).

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  • #462795
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    Kobe lead the Lakers to 45 wins with Odom, Kwame, Smush, Cook, Mihm, Walton, Vujacic and George lol.

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  • #462810
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    Kobe lead the Lakers to 45 wins with Odom, Kwame, Smush, Cook, Mihm, Walton, Vujacic and George lol.

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  • #462799
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    and weve all seen how much better guys like george, brian cook, smush parker and others looked without kobe. Yet he doesnt make teammates better?

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  • #462814
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    and weve all seen how much better guys like george, brian cook, smush parker and others looked without kobe. Yet he doesnt make teammates better?

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  • #462805
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    I never thought I’d hear the day Shannon Brown was mentioned as making a cast superstar studded. That’s pretty good considering he couldn’t get PT with LeBron’s Cavs and was a bench warmer on Larry Brown’s Bobcats.

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  • #462820
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    I never thought I’d hear the day Shannon Brown was mentioned as making a cast superstar studded. That’s pretty good considering he couldn’t get PT with LeBron’s Cavs and was a bench warmer on Larry Brown’s Bobcats.

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  • #462807
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    kobe has stars around him. SO does tim. I dont get where you are going with that argument. Sure shaq is a better teammate then duncan ever had, but kobe also never had anything close to a third option all-star in his earlier days

    -When you have two of the top 5…do you need a 3rd all star?

    Robert horry was probably the third best player on those earlier teams. Tim has another all-star as his third best teammate. Some are saying manu is the mvp of the nba right now. Parker was a top 5 pg and won the finals mvp award. 1 superstar (if you wanna call pau a superstar) vs having 2 all-stars (parker and manu). Seems pretty even to me. Also, when kobe has a superstar next to him, he has gone further in the playoffs every year but once (2003).

     

    -For one, Parker DID NOT earn that Finals MVP. He was not the best player in the finals. He was getting all his shots off the fact Cleveland doubled Duncan. I hate when people bring that up because if you watched that, you’d knew that’s the case.

    Let’s go deeper into those rotation

    Gasol-Odom ( who you said should get a ASG bid earlier in the year)- Bynum- Brown-Barnes-Blake-Parker

    or

    Manu-Parker-Jefferson- Neal-Hill- Blair-McDyess

     

    Do you really wanna say that’s "Even"?

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  • #462822
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    kobe has stars around him. SO does tim. I dont get where you are going with that argument. Sure shaq is a better teammate then duncan ever had, but kobe also never had anything close to a third option all-star in his earlier days

    -When you have two of the top 5…do you need a 3rd all star?

    Robert horry was probably the third best player on those earlier teams. Tim has another all-star as his third best teammate. Some are saying manu is the mvp of the nba right now. Parker was a top 5 pg and won the finals mvp award. 1 superstar (if you wanna call pau a superstar) vs having 2 all-stars (parker and manu). Seems pretty even to me. Also, when kobe has a superstar next to him, he has gone further in the playoffs every year but once (2003).

     

    -For one, Parker DID NOT earn that Finals MVP. He was not the best player in the finals. He was getting all his shots off the fact Cleveland doubled Duncan. I hate when people bring that up because if you watched that, you’d knew that’s the case.

    Let’s go deeper into those rotation

    Gasol-Odom ( who you said should get a ASG bid earlier in the year)- Bynum- Brown-Barnes-Blake-Parker

    or

    Manu-Parker-Jefferson- Neal-Hill- Blair-McDyess

     

    Do you really wanna say that’s "Even"?

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  • #462811
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    I never thought I’d hear the day Shannon Brown was mentioned as making a cast superstar studded. That’s pretty good considering he couldn’t get PT with LeBron’s Cavs and was a bench warmer on Larry Brown’s Bobcats.

    – He is a part of a supercast…what? Do you disagree?

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  • #462826
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    I never thought I’d hear the day Shannon Brown was mentioned as making a cast superstar studded. That’s pretty good considering he couldn’t get PT with LeBron’s Cavs and was a bench warmer on Larry Brown’s Bobcats.

    – He is a part of a supercast…what? Do you disagree?

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  • #462815
    AvatarAvatar
    kanyedabest
    Participant

    ive heard a lot of stupid things on this forum but this tops it…… bizzare how many kobe haters there

    its not even F-UCKI-NG close! kobe is the better player, easier to build around, u name it hes better

    tim duncan never woulda made the playoffs with a starting lineup of smush parker, insert SG, luke walton and chris mihm

    god ur an idiot

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  • #462830
    AvatarAvatar
    kanyedabest
    Participant

    ive heard a lot of stupid things on this forum but this tops it…… bizzare how many kobe haters there

    its not even F-UCKI-NG close! kobe is the better player, easier to build around, u name it hes better

    tim duncan never woulda made the playoffs with a starting lineup of smush parker, insert SG, luke walton and chris mihm

    god ur an idiot

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  • #462823
    AvatarAvatar
    gone
    Participant

    Id take duncan because its much easier to put people around him

    But San Antonio has been a more stable enviornment the last 15 years (same coach, same style of play) They are like the New England of the NBA. While LA is like the Cowboys annoying fans annoying players lol jk but they have so much star power stuff happens where they have down years because things arent always stable….

    However, I think Kevin Garnett is better than Tim Duncan. If you put KG on the Spurs he would have 4+ titles

     

    Edit: Someone of you its obvious you are young and never understood the game when some of these players where playing in the late 90s early 00s

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  • #462838
    AvatarAvatar
    gone
    Participant

    Id take duncan because its much easier to put people around him

    But San Antonio has been a more stable enviornment the last 15 years (same coach, same style of play) They are like the New England of the NBA. While LA is like the Cowboys annoying fans annoying players lol jk but they have so much star power stuff happens where they have down years because things arent always stable….

    However, I think Kevin Garnett is better than Tim Duncan. If you put KG on the Spurs he would have 4+ titles

     

    Edit: Someone of you its obvious you are young and never understood the game when some of these players where playing in the late 90s early 00s

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  • #462825
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    However, I think Kevin Garnett is better than Tim Duncan. If you put KG on the Spurs he would have 4+ titles

     

    I love KG but….no way. Duncan was way better then KG. Even when they played: Duncan owned Garnett.

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  • #462840
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    However, I think Kevin Garnett is better than Tim Duncan. If you put KG on the Spurs he would have 4+ titles

     

    I love KG but….no way. Duncan was way better then KG. Even when they played: Duncan owned Garnett.

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  • #462829
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    Duncan over KG all day

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  • #462844
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    Duncan over KG all day

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  • #462831
    AvatarAvatar
    gone
    Participant

    He was never given a chance to ball with some real players and when he did…..Conference finals. Im not trynna argue but its just what I think he is a better passer and I like the intensity he brings to a team

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  • #462846
    AvatarAvatar
    gone
    Participant

    He was never given a chance to ball with some real players and when he did…..Conference finals. Im not trynna argue but its just what I think he is a better passer and I like the intensity he brings to a team

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  • #462848
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    knicksboy, you keep saying kobe has 2 superstars but since those 2 never played together, i dont get why you keep saying hes had 2 vs tims only having 2 all-stars. If we want to talk about entire careers, then tim has sean elliot and david robinson and manu and tony. ALso i felt tony earned the mvp award that finals.

    As for current rosters, yes kobe has the better team. But bynum has been injured and still is getting back . But when you factor in that kobe has won 2 straight titles with his better supporting cast while tim hasnt won a single game past the first round in the last 2 years, i would say kobe is doing exactly what he should be with that talent. SO not sure how that you can knock him for it.

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  • #462833
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    knicksboy, you keep saying kobe has 2 superstars but since those 2 never played together, i dont get why you keep saying hes had 2 vs tims only having 2 all-stars. If we want to talk about entire careers, then tim has sean elliot and david robinson and manu and tony. ALso i felt tony earned the mvp award that finals.

    As for current rosters, yes kobe has the better team. But bynum has been injured and still is getting back . But when you factor in that kobe has won 2 straight titles with his better supporting cast while tim hasnt won a single game past the first round in the last 2 years, i would say kobe is doing exactly what he should be with that talent. SO not sure how that you can knock him for it.

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  • #462854
    AvatarAvatar
    apb540
    Participant

    First off, don’t abuse the – thing to get around cursing.  Second, it IS close because they are both top 2 or 3 at their respective positions and have both won multiple championships in the same era as each other.  I personally don’t believe that you can pick which one is the better player because it is impossible to compare a HOF PF to a HOF SG.  Just like comparing Jordan to LeBron, completely different players.  Think about this thou, imagine if Kobe and TD would of played together during their careers!  

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  • #462839
    AvatarAvatar
    apb540
    Participant

    First off, don’t abuse the – thing to get around cursing.  Second, it IS close because they are both top 2 or 3 at their respective positions and have both won multiple championships in the same era as each other.  I personally don’t believe that you can pick which one is the better player because it is impossible to compare a HOF PF to a HOF SG.  Just like comparing Jordan to LeBron, completely different players.  Think about this thou, imagine if Kobe and TD would of played together during their careers!  

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  • #462860
    AvatarAvatar
    apb540
    Participant

    KG the better passer?  Idk about that at all. 

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  • #462845
    AvatarAvatar
    apb540
    Participant

    KG the better passer?  Idk about that at all. 

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  • #462862
    AvatarAvatar
    iguapops420
    Participant

     Knicksboy1, it isn’t a fair argument to say switch Shaq with a Parker or Ginobli because that’s pretty obvious they are nowhere near his level. But the two of them TOGETHER is incredible. Kobe has had to be the Jordan and Pippen for his team. NO one and I mean NO one has the same kind of responsibilities as Kobe. Certainly not Duncan. Lebron with the Cavs is the only other player who did this, and that is simply because he doesn’t know how to play any other way and he ain’t winning &$#%#&@!. 

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  • #462847
    AvatarAvatar
    iguapops420
    Participant

     Knicksboy1, it isn’t a fair argument to say switch Shaq with a Parker or Ginobli because that’s pretty obvious they are nowhere near his level. But the two of them TOGETHER is incredible. Kobe has had to be the Jordan and Pippen for his team. NO one and I mean NO one has the same kind of responsibilities as Kobe. Certainly not Duncan. Lebron with the Cavs is the only other player who did this, and that is simply because he doesn’t know how to play any other way and he ain’t winning &$#%#&@!. 

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  • #462849
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i would side with duncan over KG. I never felt particulalry confident runing the offense through KG as the number 1 option in the playoffs with the big games on the line. But KG could do all the little things just as well tim. But tim could either get his own offense or draw double teams and make his teammates get easier looks on a much more consistent basis then kg ever could.

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  • #462864
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i would side with duncan over KG. I never felt particulalry confident runing the offense through KG as the number 1 option in the playoffs with the big games on the line. But KG could do all the little things just as well tim. But tim could either get his own offense or draw double teams and make his teammates get easier looks on a much more consistent basis then kg ever could.

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  • #462855
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    In all of Kobe’s career, he only played 3 seasons without a legit superstar player next to him. Like I said, Duncan never played with a top 100 player in his career compared to Kobe’s two. If you wanna go with just off the whole careers of Duncan and Kobe…I feel Kobe has had better teammates.

    Current rosters…Kobe has better talent, far and away yet your bringing up Duncan hasn’t won titles, or gotten to them. So what are you saying? You expect the guy with less talent to beat the guy with the better, more talented team? I understand that Tim hasn’t gotten a win in round 2 in 2 years but I would say that’s the lack of talent on that team. After the main 4, it’s Gary Neal getting PT, George Hill as a 6th man, Blair as a man off the bench. Don’t know about you…I think Barnes, Blake, Odom, Artest are better then those Spurs I previously named.

     

    Of course right now Kobe’s better but for a career and for creating a team, I’d go Tim Duncan.

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  • #462870
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    In all of Kobe’s career, he only played 3 seasons without a legit superstar player next to him. Like I said, Duncan never played with a top 100 player in his career compared to Kobe’s two. If you wanna go with just off the whole careers of Duncan and Kobe…I feel Kobe has had better teammates.

    Current rosters…Kobe has better talent, far and away yet your bringing up Duncan hasn’t won titles, or gotten to them. So what are you saying? You expect the guy with less talent to beat the guy with the better, more talented team? I understand that Tim hasn’t gotten a win in round 2 in 2 years but I would say that’s the lack of talent on that team. After the main 4, it’s Gary Neal getting PT, George Hill as a 6th man, Blair as a man off the bench. Don’t know about you…I think Barnes, Blake, Odom, Artest are better then those Spurs I previously named.

     

    Of course right now Kobe’s better but for a career and for creating a team, I’d go Tim Duncan.

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  • #462857
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    I also think Duncan was a better paint protector (better shot blocker). He also wanted to actually play in the paint. I used to get tired of KG shooting jumpshots and playing the top of the key of the 1-3-1 lol.

    Duncan was a true anchor.

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  • #462872
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    I also think Duncan was a better paint protector (better shot blocker). He also wanted to actually play in the paint. I used to get tired of KG shooting jumpshots and playing the top of the key of the 1-3-1 lol.

    Duncan was a true anchor.

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  • #462861
    AvatarAvatar
    andxxx
    Participant

     Didnt the spurs get past the maverick last year?

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  • #462876
    AvatarAvatar
    andxxx
    Participant

     Didnt the spurs get past the maverick last year?

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  • #462863
    AvatarAvatar
    iguapops420
    Participant

     Shannon Brown a super talent? Isn’t this the same guy who was a THROW IN to an Adam Morrision trade. Kobe has helped Shannon become what he is. Trevor Ariza? Suspect jumper, then Kobe gave him a workout regiment and suddenly he shoots 50% from deep in playoffs. Sounds like a leader to me. 

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  • #462878
    AvatarAvatar
    iguapops420
    Participant

     Shannon Brown a super talent? Isn’t this the same guy who was a THROW IN to an Adam Morrision trade. Kobe has helped Shannon become what he is. Trevor Ariza? Suspect jumper, then Kobe gave him a workout regiment and suddenly he shoots 50% from deep in playoffs. Sounds like a leader to me. 

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  • #462871
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    so knicksboy, are you saying tim duncan has never played with a top 100 player? David robinson was still an all-star and could have gotten 22-12 had he not had to share the ball with tim down low. SO that right there ends that argument.

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  • #462886
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    so knicksboy, are you saying tim duncan has never played with a top 100 player? David robinson was still an all-star and could have gotten 22-12 had he not had to share the ball with tim down low. SO that right there ends that argument.

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  • #462879
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    I forgot about Robinson there. We all make mistakes.

    Top 100 dude in his prime.

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  • #462894
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    I forgot about Robinson there. We all make mistakes.

    Top 100 dude in his prime.

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  • #462881
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    I never called Brown a superstar talent….said he’s a part of a superstar cast. Fall back.

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  • #462896
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    I never called Brown a superstar talent….said he’s a part of a superstar cast. Fall back.

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  • #462885
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

     Fact, tim duncan has had all-stars around him his entire career. ANyone who acts like duncan has been carrying weak teams doesnt know what they are talking about. I dont care how many are considered top 50 or top 100 players of all time. Pau wasnt close to being considered a top 50 player before he joined kobe.

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  • #462900
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

     Fact, tim duncan has had all-stars around him his entire career. ANyone who acts like duncan has been carrying weak teams doesnt know what they are talking about. I dont care how many are considered top 50 or top 100 players of all time. Pau wasnt close to being considered a top 50 player before he joined kobe.

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  • #462887
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Gasol isn’t a top 50 player now all time. He is top 100 all time. Probably late 90’s

     

    If your telling me there was 50 players better then Gasol when he was on Memphis….I seriously have to END this convo.

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  • #462902
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    Gasol isn’t a top 50 player now all time. He is top 100 all time. Probably late 90’s

     

    If your telling me there was 50 players better then Gasol when he was on Memphis….I seriously have to END this convo.

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  • #462891
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    you are confusin me, youve been saying top 50 all time and i said pau wasnt top 50 all-time. SO we agree. WHere are you getting this top 50 in the league talk at any given moment from? But if it makes you end this convo, then fine, pau wasnt even a top 200 player in the nba the season he joined the lakers.

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  • #462906
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    you are confusin me, youve been saying top 50 all time and i said pau wasnt top 50 all-time. SO we agree. WHere are you getting this top 50 in the league talk at any given moment from? But if it makes you end this convo, then fine, pau wasnt even a top 200 player in the nba the season he joined the lakers.

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  • #462897
    AvatarAvatar
    NYK2010
    Participant

    Pau wasn’t a top 200 player are you crazy.

    He was still a top tier PF.

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  • #462912
    AvatarAvatar
    NYK2010
    Participant

    Pau wasn’t a top 200 player are you crazy.

    He was still a top tier PF.

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  • #462901
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    its called a joke nyk2010. He said he would end this convo only if i said pau wasnt a top 50 player in the league. If thats what it takes, then pau should have been in the d-league as far as im concnerned.

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  • #462916
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    its called a joke nyk2010. He said he would end this convo only if i said pau wasnt a top 50 player in the league. If thats what it takes, then pau should have been in the d-league as far as im concnerned.

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  • #462903
    AvatarAvatar
    iguapops420
    Participant

    ^^^He was being sarcastic. 

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  • #462918
    AvatarAvatar
    iguapops420
    Participant

    ^^^He was being sarcastic. 

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  • #462905
    AvatarAvatar
    iguapops420
    Participant

     I’m still waiting on an intellectual response to the fact that Pops, Doc, and Gentry along with countless SUPERSTARS all claim that Kobe is the the greatest player/leader in the game.

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  • #462920
    AvatarAvatar
    iguapops420
    Participant

     I’m still waiting on an intellectual response to the fact that Pops, Doc, and Gentry along with countless SUPERSTARS all claim that Kobe is the the greatest player/leader in the game.

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  • #462909
    AvatarAvatar
    andxxx
    Participant

     Gasol 06-07: 20.8ppg 9.8rpg 54% fg

    Gasol 09-10: 18.3ppg 11.3rpg 54% fg

    Gasol wasn’t a scrub in memphis he was actually pretty good

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  • #462924
    AvatarAvatar
    andxxx
    Participant

     Gasol 06-07: 20.8ppg 9.8rpg 54% fg

    Gasol 09-10: 18.3ppg 11.3rpg 54% fg

    Gasol wasn’t a scrub in memphis he was actually pretty good

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  • #463013
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Duncan was an all star from day 1. He was always a team first guy. He was always the alpha dog of those teams. He was always consistant.

    Kobe was not. Sure, his team sucked in 06. But look at the 2010 Cavs, a bunch of clowns LBJ was carrying to 66 wins. Kobe has only been the best player in the NBA for one season (06), Duncan was the best player for 3 years (03-05).

    I could go on and on. Sure Kobe can lead a team. He can also kill a team. Cite the 06 season, or the 08 Finals. He is still one of the most overrated players of alltime.

    This guy is regularly compared to Jordan, despite the fact Jordan: scored more, assisted more, rebounded more, shot a higher percentage, won more titles, won more MVPs, and won more Finals MVPs. Not to mention, he was the best player in the league for at least 10 years.

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  • #463028
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Duncan was an all star from day 1. He was always a team first guy. He was always the alpha dog of those teams. He was always consistant.

    Kobe was not. Sure, his team sucked in 06. But look at the 2010 Cavs, a bunch of clowns LBJ was carrying to 66 wins. Kobe has only been the best player in the NBA for one season (06), Duncan was the best player for 3 years (03-05).

    I could go on and on. Sure Kobe can lead a team. He can also kill a team. Cite the 06 season, or the 08 Finals. He is still one of the most overrated players of alltime.

    This guy is regularly compared to Jordan, despite the fact Jordan: scored more, assisted more, rebounded more, shot a higher percentage, won more titles, won more MVPs, and won more Finals MVPs. Not to mention, he was the best player in the league for at least 10 years.

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  • #463023
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    @urban, bringing up how they played from day one doesnt mean much since kobe was drafted at 17 out of highschool and tim was a 4 year college player.

    lebrons cavs were much better then the teams kobe had. Other then odom, every other guy on those teams would not and has not been a role player for any team he has played on since. Kwame brown, smuch parker, chris mihm, brian cook, shammond williams, vladmir radmanovic, luke walton, devean george, shasha vujacic. Those were his teammates. How many of those guys would have played on last years cavs team?

    If you think kobe has only been the best player for 1 season then many people would disagree. He has been called by the majority of nba coaches, gms, players etc as the best player for the last 6-7 years.

    How did kobe kill the 06 team or the o8 team? He carried those teams. Are you gonna say he killed the entire team becasue of a couple poor playoff games? Really? Thats him killing a team? In that case, duncan has killed his teams the last few years too. Kerep in mind, prior to the 2008 season, most people didnt even think the lakers would make the playoffs let alone the finals.

    Kobe is compared to jordan becasue he is the closest thing the league has ever seen and they are very comparable in how they play. ANd by the time kobe retires, a couple of those stats you mention kobe will be ahead of jordan.

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  • #463038
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    @urban, bringing up how they played from day one doesnt mean much since kobe was drafted at 17 out of highschool and tim was a 4 year college player.

    lebrons cavs were much better then the teams kobe had. Other then odom, every other guy on those teams would not and has not been a role player for any team he has played on since. Kwame brown, smuch parker, chris mihm, brian cook, shammond williams, vladmir radmanovic, luke walton, devean george, shasha vujacic. Those were his teammates. How many of those guys would have played on last years cavs team?

    If you think kobe has only been the best player for 1 season then many people would disagree. He has been called by the majority of nba coaches, gms, players etc as the best player for the last 6-7 years.

    How did kobe kill the 06 team or the o8 team? He carried those teams. Are you gonna say he killed the entire team becasue of a couple poor playoff games? Really? Thats him killing a team? In that case, duncan has killed his teams the last few years too. Kerep in mind, prior to the 2008 season, most people didnt even think the lakers would make the playoffs let alone the finals.

    Kobe is compared to jordan becasue he is the closest thing the league has ever seen and they are very comparable in how they play. ANd by the time kobe retires, a couple of those stats you mention kobe will be ahead of jordan.

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  • #463027
    AvatarAvatar
    Mkadoza
    Participant

     I’d take Duncan, solely for positional scarcity and complete dominance in his prime. Prime Duncan still changes the game more than prime Kobe. And I still wonder who prime Kobe is? Is the Kobe of now, the past couple of years of incredibly high skill level and professionalism? Was it Kobe dolo, who’s sheer dominance was coupled with serious bouts of immaturity? Or was it the most intense, athletic second fiddle ever, with all apologies to Pippen?

     

    As for the supporting cast argument, we’ve never seen Ginobili or Parker outside of a Spurs uniform, so it would only be right to assume that part of their success has come from Duncan and Pop right? Would Parker or Ginobili be as effective without such a force on the court? Their skillsets aren’t dominant, tho Ginobili has "it". Hes a great player… Anyway, the cohesion and consistancy of the team starts with Duncan and Pop, like in Boston with Pierce and Doc, and in LA with Kobe and Phil. They know what theyre doing because of the consistancy at the top. Its just, the Spurs always seem to be in it. And I think Duncan is the #1 reason behind it. 

     

    I choose Duncan, because he has done absolutely nothing to make me not want him on my team. Everything he does is possitive. Those kind of superstars are rare. I dont think I’ve ever seen someone so talented be so humble. Ever… in anything. Except for Jerry Rice… which kinda sums it up doesnt it?

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  • #463042
    AvatarAvatar
    Mkadoza
    Participant

     I’d take Duncan, solely for positional scarcity and complete dominance in his prime. Prime Duncan still changes the game more than prime Kobe. And I still wonder who prime Kobe is? Is the Kobe of now, the past couple of years of incredibly high skill level and professionalism? Was it Kobe dolo, who’s sheer dominance was coupled with serious bouts of immaturity? Or was it the most intense, athletic second fiddle ever, with all apologies to Pippen?

     

    As for the supporting cast argument, we’ve never seen Ginobili or Parker outside of a Spurs uniform, so it would only be right to assume that part of their success has come from Duncan and Pop right? Would Parker or Ginobili be as effective without such a force on the court? Their skillsets aren’t dominant, tho Ginobili has "it". Hes a great player… Anyway, the cohesion and consistancy of the team starts with Duncan and Pop, like in Boston with Pierce and Doc, and in LA with Kobe and Phil. They know what theyre doing because of the consistancy at the top. Its just, the Spurs always seem to be in it. And I think Duncan is the #1 reason behind it. 

     

    I choose Duncan, because he has done absolutely nothing to make me not want him on my team. Everything he does is possitive. Those kind of superstars are rare. I dont think I’ve ever seen someone so talented be so humble. Ever… in anything. Except for Jerry Rice… which kinda sums it up doesnt it?

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  • #463031
    AvatarAvatar
    Mkadoza
    Participant

     And if I recall correctly, Kobe deliberately chose not to shoot one of those game, because of criticism he was too trigger happy. Those are the moments that a lot of Kobe detractors remember.. They did happen. It doesnt detract from his skill or his accomplishments, they are a part of his basketball past. He grown past that though. Its almost night and day. 

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  • #463046
    AvatarAvatar
    Mkadoza
    Participant

     And if I recall correctly, Kobe deliberately chose not to shoot one of those game, because of criticism he was too trigger happy. Those are the moments that a lot of Kobe detractors remember.. They did happen. It doesnt detract from his skill or his accomplishments, they are a part of his basketball past. He grown past that though. Its almost night and day. 

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  • #463035
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Best players:

    00-02 Shaq

    03-05 Duncan

    06 Kobe

    07 Dirk/Lebron

    08-present Lebron

    I thought most people knew this….majority of GMs? i dont know who you are talking about. Kobe wont be ahead of Jordan in rings, MVPs, Finals MVPs, or Field Goal percentage. He might pass the others because of playing in alot more games. His per game averages will never exceed Jordan’s and he isnt Jordan.

     

    "that cavs team"’s best player right now is Daniel Gibson. Daniel effing Gibson. Sure 06 lakers were worse, but not that much worse.

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  • #463050
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Best players:

    00-02 Shaq

    03-05 Duncan

    06 Kobe

    07 Dirk/Lebron

    08-present Lebron

    I thought most people knew this….majority of GMs? i dont know who you are talking about. Kobe wont be ahead of Jordan in rings, MVPs, Finals MVPs, or Field Goal percentage. He might pass the others because of playing in alot more games. His per game averages will never exceed Jordan’s and he isnt Jordan.

     

    "that cavs team"’s best player right now is Daniel Gibson. Daniel effing Gibson. Sure 06 lakers were worse, but not that much worse.

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  • #463039
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Mka- Yes, game 7 in 2006 kobe quit on his team litterally, by taking like 2 shots in the 2nd half.

    And he did kill his team in the 08 finals. he killd them in the huddles and he lost game 6 by 39 points. something Jordan would HAVE NEVER let happen. TD, fyi, undefeated in the finals himself.

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  • #463054
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Mka- Yes, game 7 in 2006 kobe quit on his team litterally, by taking like 2 shots in the 2nd half.

    And he did kill his team in the 08 finals. he killd them in the huddles and he lost game 6 by 39 points. something Jordan would HAVE NEVER let happen. TD, fyi, undefeated in the finals himself.

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  • #463043
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    the only gasme i ever remember where kobe didnt shoot was against the kings in a regular season game back in like 2003 when "annonymous" teammates called him out for shooting too much through the media.

    If you are refferring to the game 7 against the suns, kobe dropped 50 in game 6 and the lakers lost. In game 7, he dropped 24 in the first half and the lakers were down by 15 at halftime. The coach told him he couldnt shoot them to victory and the best chance was to get oethers invloved. He then went into passing mode to start the third and the team went down by 26 in the first 5 minutes of the 3rd quarter. KObe sat the final 8 minutes of the game becasue it was a blowout. In all, he shot 1-3 in the second half in about 13 minutes and he finished the game with like 27.

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  • #463058
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    the only gasme i ever remember where kobe didnt shoot was against the kings in a regular season game back in like 2003 when "annonymous" teammates called him out for shooting too much through the media.

    If you are refferring to the game 7 against the suns, kobe dropped 50 in game 6 and the lakers lost. In game 7, he dropped 24 in the first half and the lakers were down by 15 at halftime. The coach told him he couldnt shoot them to victory and the best chance was to get oethers invloved. He then went into passing mode to start the third and the team went down by 26 in the first 5 minutes of the 3rd quarter. KObe sat the final 8 minutes of the game becasue it was a blowout. In all, he shot 1-3 in the second half in about 13 minutes and he finished the game with like 27.

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  • #463047
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Defending Kobe in game 7….something i hoped i would never hear.

    Kobe straight up quit in the 2nd half. He played 82 games, then 6 playoff games, and suddenly, he was going to get his teammates involved? give me an effin break. He quit like the loser he is. But good for him they got him an AS big man so he could be relevant and bring up the ridiculous Jordan talk again.

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  • #463062
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Defending Kobe in game 7….something i hoped i would never hear.

    Kobe straight up quit in the 2nd half. He played 82 games, then 6 playoff games, and suddenly, he was going to get his teammates involved? give me an effin break. He quit like the loser he is. But good for him they got him an AS big man so he could be relevant and bring up the ridiculous Jordan talk again.

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  • #463051
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    td is undefeated in the finals. BUt 7 trips to the finals is better then 4 trips. By your logic, losing in the first round is better then making the finals and losing.

    And no, dirk was never better then kobe ever. Lebron has been arguably better, but many have never given him that even though he did earn the mvp awards. Kobe has saved himself for the playoffs.

    And what does boobie gibson have to do with anything? Surely you are not suggesting boobie gibson was the best teammate lebron had in cleavland? Antawn jamison, mo williams, zydrunas ilgauskas, delnte west, andersen verajao, anthony parker were all better then boobie gibson last year.

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  • #463066
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    td is undefeated in the finals. BUt 7 trips to the finals is better then 4 trips. By your logic, losing in the first round is better then making the finals and losing.

    And no, dirk was never better then kobe ever. Lebron has been arguably better, but many have never given him that even though he did earn the mvp awards. Kobe has saved himself for the playoffs.

    And what does boobie gibson have to do with anything? Surely you are not suggesting boobie gibson was the best teammate lebron had in cleavland? Antawn jamison, mo williams, zydrunas ilgauskas, delnte west, andersen verajao, anthony parker were all better then boobie gibson last year.

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  • #463057
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    Lol, "kobe quit like the loser he is". Okay, now i know im not able to have an intelligent discussion with you. 5 titals and counting. What a loser.

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  • #463072
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    Lol, "kobe quit like the loser he is". Okay, now i know im not able to have an intelligent discussion with you. 5 titals and counting. What a loser.

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  • #463059
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    you know whats funny, almost every pro kobe person on this thread has been reasonable and brought legit arguments while not bashing tim. Many of the anti kobe people have resorted to name calling and demonizing kobe and letting their hater come out. ITs all good though, thinking of you guys just makes the championships that much sweeter.

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  • #463074
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    you know whats funny, almost every pro kobe person on this thread has been reasonable and brought legit arguments while not bashing tim. Many of the anti kobe people have resorted to name calling and demonizing kobe and letting their hater come out. ITs all good though, thinking of you guys just makes the championships that much sweeter.

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  • #463065
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

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  • #463080
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

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  • #463073
    AvatarAvatar
    billyk
    Participant

    First, I think Duncan had the ability to anchor an elite defense with his ability to control the paint and defend the pick and roll.. Kobe in his prime was a top notch defender, but Duncan had the ability anchor his team on the defensive end..

    Offensively, I think Duncan was more efficent in his prime, was never a ball stopper, and was a very good offensive rebounder (which was underrated).. Kobe was an elite scorer, but he could be a chucker, ball hog and has been known for not trusting his teamates…

    Both players are two diffrent type of leaders Duncan was more of a silent lead by example and Kobe was more in the mold of Jordan (fiery and demanding)… 

     With all that said Tim Duncan was the better player because of what he brought on defense and offense from the efficency point of view….

     

     

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  • #463088
    AvatarAvatar
    billyk
    Participant

    First, I think Duncan had the ability to anchor an elite defense with his ability to control the paint and defend the pick and roll.. Kobe in his prime was a top notch defender, but Duncan had the ability anchor his team on the defensive end..

    Offensively, I think Duncan was more efficent in his prime, was never a ball stopper, and was a very good offensive rebounder (which was underrated).. Kobe was an elite scorer, but he could be a chucker, ball hog and has been known for not trusting his teamates…

    Both players are two diffrent type of leaders Duncan was more of a silent lead by example and Kobe was more in the mold of Jordan (fiery and demanding)… 

     With all that said Tim Duncan was the better player because of what he brought on defense and offense from the efficency point of view….

     

     

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  • #463075
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    billyk, i respect your opinion. BUt one question, dont you think longevity should come into play? I mean your comments are very accurate if aimed from about 1998-2005. But in the last 5 years to today, kobe has easily been ahead of duncan imo. Duncan has only made 1 all-nba 1st team in the last 5 seasons and it doesnt look like he will see anymore 1st team votes from here on out. In that same span, kobe has been the best player over the last 5 years and is in the mvp discussion every year and he is still going strong and in the mvp discussion today.

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  • #463090
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    billyk, i respect your opinion. BUt one question, dont you think longevity should come into play? I mean your comments are very accurate if aimed from about 1998-2005. But in the last 5 years to today, kobe has easily been ahead of duncan imo. Duncan has only made 1 all-nba 1st team in the last 5 seasons and it doesnt look like he will see anymore 1st team votes from here on out. In that same span, kobe has been the best player over the last 5 years and is in the mvp discussion every year and he is still going strong and in the mvp discussion today.

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  • #463077
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    billyk
    Participant

    I thought we were talking about best player in their prime, if we are talking about better career Kobe would have a edge because of longevity…

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  • #463092
    AvatarAvatar
    billyk
    Participant

    I thought we were talking about best player in their prime, if we are talking about better career Kobe would have a edge because of longevity…

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  • #463197
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    llperez- every argument against Kobe you just try to deny as if none of its true. This guy has been the best player in the NBA 1 season. thats 1. He has always been overrated. Say what you want about gasol, he has been amazing in LA. Kobe isnt a passer or creator, so acting as if hes the direct reason Gasol has been great is just false.

    Most peoople have picked Duncan, for a reason. He has the better body of work. He is the best ever at his position, he has 4 rings as his teams best player, he took a relative unknown team to quasi-dynasty, he always did it with defense, he was even clutch to an extent, and always found ways to win.

    Kobe, until 2 years ago would not even have been in this argument. And yes, the 2 years count now, but the first major chunk of his career was highlighted with being Shaq’s lacky and hogging the ball and whining until he got his way.

    Even the 08 Finals were a major dissapointment. He was killing his teammates in every huddle (which did get public, if you forgot) and they end up no showing the 2nd half of game 4, and completely no showing game 6. A no show in an NBA finals game by an entire team that is "lead" by Kobe is unacceptable. When did TD’s teams ever no show a game of such importance?

    And yes, he won the title in 09. It was great. But everyone knews KG was out and Orlando was playing above their heads. To make matters worse, Stan Van chose to put a clearly unprepared Jameer Nelson into the rotation, screwing up Rafer Alston’s surprising run as a legit playoff PG. He also played a completely rattled JJ Redick in crunch time for all of these games. But, sure take your title, thats 1 in my book. 1, because Shaq o neal was UNQUESTIONABLY the leader of the 00-02 teams, that never lost by 39 points in a finals game.

    And finally in 2010, you got and beat the Celtics. But no one will remember game 7 for Kobe bryant. It will be Ron Artest. Kobe shot 25% from the field in the biggest game of his career. End of story there. Talk about his 15 boards all you like, that isnt what a great performance by a SG is judged by. I want my SG to score and play defense, im not worried about his rebounding. And the way KG no showed that game on the boards, it wouldnt have mattered.

    You are leaving out way too many intangibles. Kobe has none. Kobe is a good scorer, and a good defender. Thats all. He doesnt make anyone else better, he doesnt have any defining moments of his career that you will never forget. He is just simply Kobe. He was a sidekick, then his team was ran into the ground, he spent a year of his prime in the lottery (name one other alltime great that has EVER done that?) followed by another poor season in 06, and then, after a third straight year of not making the 2nd round (seriously, again, name one other great that went 3 straight years without the CSF in their prime?) before the Gasol trade. Then everything changed and the Lakers were "king" again. Then these ridiculous Kobe arguments came up. By I watched all the years, not just two.

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  • #463208
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    llperez- every argument against Kobe you just try to deny as if none of its true. This guy has been the best player in the NBA 1 season. thats 1. He has always been overrated. Say what you want about gasol, he has been amazing in LA. Kobe isnt a passer or creator, so acting as if hes the direct reason Gasol has been great is just false.

    Most peoople have picked Duncan, for a reason. He has the better body of work. He is the best ever at his position, he has 4 rings as his teams best player, he took a relative unknown team to quasi-dynasty, he always did it with defense, he was even clutch to an extent, and always found ways to win.

    Kobe, until 2 years ago would not even have been in this argument. And yes, the 2 years count now, but the first major chunk of his career was highlighted with being Shaq’s lacky and hogging the ball and whining until he got his way.

    Even the 08 Finals were a major dissapointment. He was killing his teammates in every huddle (which did get public, if you forgot) and they end up no showing the 2nd half of game 4, and completely no showing game 6. A no show in an NBA finals game by an entire team that is "lead" by Kobe is unacceptable. When did TD’s teams ever no show a game of such importance?

    And yes, he won the title in 09. It was great. But everyone knews KG was out and Orlando was playing above their heads. To make matters worse, Stan Van chose to put a clearly unprepared Jameer Nelson into the rotation, screwing up Rafer Alston’s surprising run as a legit playoff PG. He also played a completely rattled JJ Redick in crunch time for all of these games. But, sure take your title, thats 1 in my book. 1, because Shaq o neal was UNQUESTIONABLY the leader of the 00-02 teams, that never lost by 39 points in a finals game.

    And finally in 2010, you got and beat the Celtics. But no one will remember game 7 for Kobe bryant. It will be Ron Artest. Kobe shot 25% from the field in the biggest game of his career. End of story there. Talk about his 15 boards all you like, that isnt what a great performance by a SG is judged by. I want my SG to score and play defense, im not worried about his rebounding. And the way KG no showed that game on the boards, it wouldnt have mattered.

    You are leaving out way too many intangibles. Kobe has none. Kobe is a good scorer, and a good defender. Thats all. He doesnt make anyone else better, he doesnt have any defining moments of his career that you will never forget. He is just simply Kobe. He was a sidekick, then his team was ran into the ground, he spent a year of his prime in the lottery (name one other alltime great that has EVER done that?) followed by another poor season in 06, and then, after a third straight year of not making the 2nd round (seriously, again, name one other great that went 3 straight years without the CSF in their prime?) before the Gasol trade. Then everything changed and the Lakers were "king" again. Then these ridiculous Kobe arguments came up. By I watched all the years, not just two.

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  • #463263
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    wow. So may obviously biased opinions included there urban that it pretty makes it pointless to even bother further responding. But ill bite…

    "he has always been overrated"…..Really strong argumetn here. I mean, how many acvtual coaches, players gms have siad he is the best? Yeah becasue they dont know what they are tlaking about. Glad we have you here to clear it all up.

    "kobe isnt a creator"…..Lol, no comment.

    "The first major chunk of his career was highlighted by being shaq’s lacky and hogging the ball and whining"….If by lacky you mean all nba superstar who took over the last 5 minutes of games. By your defenition, every single player in the league would have been shaqs lacky.

    "take your titles, thats one in my book. One."……..SO kobe has 1 title in your book. Im sure thats a best seller.

    "i want my sg to score and play defense, im not worried about his rebounding."…..KObe scored 24 points. He hit double digits in the 4th quarter with the game on the line. ANd he played great defense. DO you remember how rondo was dominating games and everyone was wondering how to slow him down? Yeah, that never happened in the finals with kobe on him. And if you dont think rebounding is important, i hope you never actually coach or play basketball.

    "kobe is a good scorer and good defender. Thats all." He has no defnining moments in his career"….another lol comment

    " he spent a year of his prime in the lottery"……the only season of his 15 year career he was in the lottery both he and odom missed a month late in the season that pretty much ended their palyoff hopes. BUt if inuries means hes not good enough to take a team to the playoffs, then thats your opinion.

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  • #463274
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    wow. So may obviously biased opinions included there urban that it pretty makes it pointless to even bother further responding. But ill bite…

    "he has always been overrated"…..Really strong argumetn here. I mean, how many acvtual coaches, players gms have siad he is the best? Yeah becasue they dont know what they are tlaking about. Glad we have you here to clear it all up.

    "kobe isnt a creator"…..Lol, no comment.

    "The first major chunk of his career was highlighted by being shaq’s lacky and hogging the ball and whining"….If by lacky you mean all nba superstar who took over the last 5 minutes of games. By your defenition, every single player in the league would have been shaqs lacky.

    "take your titles, thats one in my book. One."……..SO kobe has 1 title in your book. Im sure thats a best seller.

    "i want my sg to score and play defense, im not worried about his rebounding."…..KObe scored 24 points. He hit double digits in the 4th quarter with the game on the line. ANd he played great defense. DO you remember how rondo was dominating games and everyone was wondering how to slow him down? Yeah, that never happened in the finals with kobe on him. And if you dont think rebounding is important, i hope you never actually coach or play basketball.

    "kobe is a good scorer and good defender. Thats all." He has no defnining moments in his career"….another lol comment

    " he spent a year of his prime in the lottery"……the only season of his 15 year career he was in the lottery both he and odom missed a month late in the season that pretty much ended their palyoff hopes. BUt if inuries means hes not good enough to take a team to the playoffs, then thats your opinion.

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  • #463289
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    ll, I feel you on Kobe.

    I understand you would pick Kobe and I would pick Duncan. Were not gonna disagree on it probably but I say thanks because I’m writing a article on it for school. I wanted a LA insight on why people liked Kobe on Duncan and I got it.

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  • #463300
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    ll, I feel you on Kobe.

    I understand you would pick Kobe and I would pick Duncan. Were not gonna disagree on it probably but I say thanks because I’m writing a article on it for school. I wanted a LA insight on why people liked Kobe on Duncan and I got it.

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  • #463307
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i originally planned on honestly taking some time to build a well thought out stance on why i would choose kobe. BUt i got caught up in arguing.

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  • #463318
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    i originally planned on honestly taking some time to build a well thought out stance on why i would choose kobe. BUt i got caught up in arguing.

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  • #463313
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    It’s cool. My report is due after New Year’s. If you just wanna throw it on here, you can.

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  • #463324
    AvatarAvatar
    BKKnicksfan
    Participant

    It’s cool. My report is due after New Year’s. If you just wanna throw it on here, you can.

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  • #463323
    AvatarAvatar
    Mr. 19134
    Participant

     Bottom Line is if the Sixers would of got the first pick instead of the second pick to pair Iverson with Tim Duncan, the Sixers win more titles then the Lakers from then on in and we would be asking ourselves whose better Iverson or Kobe, well Iverson got more titles but thats because of Duncan.  And Duncan would have like 6 titles by this time.  

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  • #463334
    AvatarAvatar
    Mr. 19134
    Participant

     Bottom Line is if the Sixers would of got the first pick instead of the second pick to pair Iverson with Tim Duncan, the Sixers win more titles then the Lakers from then on in and we would be asking ourselves whose better Iverson or Kobe, well Iverson got more titles but thats because of Duncan.  And Duncan would have like 6 titles by this time.  

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  • #463335
    AvatarAvatar
    JNixon
    Participant

    This is a SUPER entertaining thread I must say

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  • #463346
    AvatarAvatar
    JNixon
    Participant

    This is a SUPER entertaining thread I must say

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  • #463341
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Llperez- instead of actually making any points, you just said "this is an lol comment"

    What does Kobe do? average 4 assists for his career…no he doesnt creat shots for anyone hes worried about himself and putting up numbers. Actually back yourself up, you have no stance, you have no actual reasoning for kobe, just "you are wrong, i am right" with no substance. Congrats.

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  • #463352
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Llperez- instead of actually making any points, you just said "this is an lol comment"

    What does Kobe do? average 4 assists for his career…no he doesnt creat shots for anyone hes worried about himself and putting up numbers. Actually back yourself up, you have no stance, you have no actual reasoning for kobe, just "you are wrong, i am right" with no substance. Congrats.

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  • #463343
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    " I mean, how many acvtual coaches, players gms have siad he is the best?"

     

    None that i know of, actually.

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  • #463354
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    " I mean, how many acvtual coaches, players gms have siad he is the best?"

     

    None that i know of, actually.

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  • #463345
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Defending 6-24 is probably the most bias part of your argument. Every non Laker fan on the planet has ripped that performance. But the stupid Laker fans are arguing that him getting 15 boards made him immortal. Foolish, really. How stupid laker fans are. And this threat is just another showing of how completely one sided they are. They dont even see the Duncan argument. They dont even agree that Timmy won 4 titles has his teams best player, something only a truely elite class of players have ever done. They dont even agree he was the best PF of alltime. They are just so incredibly bias, its sickening.

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  • #463356
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    Defending 6-24 is probably the most bias part of your argument. Every non Laker fan on the planet has ripped that performance. But the stupid Laker fans are arguing that him getting 15 boards made him immortal. Foolish, really. How stupid laker fans are. And this threat is just another showing of how completely one sided they are. They dont even see the Duncan argument. They dont even agree that Timmy won 4 titles has his teams best player, something only a truely elite class of players have ever done. They dont even agree he was the best PF of alltime. They are just so incredibly bias, its sickening.

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  • #463347
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    And finally, you completely ignored the fact 3 years of his prime he was a complete nonfactor in the NBA. He was all about himself, and no one took the Lakers as a serious threat for 3 years. Every other top 10-15 player of alltime was always a winner, a winner by nature. Duncan defined this better than mostly everyone.

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  • #463358
    AvatarAvatar
    Ghost01
    Participant

    And finally, you completely ignored the fact 3 years of his prime he was a complete nonfactor in the NBA. He was all about himself, and no one took the Lakers as a serious threat for 3 years. Every other top 10-15 player of alltime was always a winner, a winner by nature. Duncan defined this better than mostly everyone.

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  • #463503
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    you just keep showing bias man. Kobe was a non factor when he was dropping 35 a game? this stuff is honestly funny to me. How about you keep calling names it makes you sound mature.

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  • #463514
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    you just keep showing bias man. Kobe was a non factor when he was dropping 35 a game? this stuff is honestly funny to me. How about you keep calling names it makes you sound mature.

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  • #463507
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    alos numerous coaches and players have called kobe the best in the game over the last 5-6 seasons. Just becasue you arent aware doesnt mean it didnt happen. ANd those "lol" replies i gave you were all those somments of yours deserved. I would love for you to take those comments around maybe even start your own thread on them and see how many people agree with you.

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  • #463518
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    alos numerous coaches and players have called kobe the best in the game over the last 5-6 seasons. Just becasue you arent aware doesnt mean it didnt happen. ANd those "lol" replies i gave you were all those somments of yours deserved. I would love for you to take those comments around maybe even start your own thread on them and see how many people agree with you.

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