I love debates but this one is tough to me. I remember the turning of 2010 and people asked: Who's the player of the decade? Dozens pick Shaq, many stat guys picked Duncan but overwhelmingly, alot of people picked Kobe.
I ask not only who's better but why is it that many people see Kobe is better then Duncan? For one, Duncan wasted 2 seasons in college, playing some good talent and probably knocked off 2000 points, 2000 rebounds and 100 blocks off his career. Kobe jumped into the NBA at 17 and didn't look back. Duncan was a centerpiece from day 1 on the Spurs while Kobe didn't become the number one until 2006 and had problems ( mostly because the roster but still). Throw in the fact, Tim Duncan never played with a top 50 guy all time in his prime. Kobe played with Shaq ( top 12 guy all time) and Gasol ( top 80 at this point all time) as his backup. I mean, had we thrown Duncan a superstar guard at their peak like Ray Allen: Do the Lakers even get past them at points? Do the Mavericks even come close? I don't know, but it's something to look at IMO.I'll ask this: If you give Kobe Bryant guys similar to Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili at the 1 and 4 positions, do they win a title? I have a hard time saying yes to that.
Then, throw on the fact Duncan has 3 Finals MVP's, 4 NBA Championships to Kobe's 5 titles and 2 MVP's. Am I wrong to feel like Duncan's titles were better? I mean, Duncan was robbed of a Finals MVP award ( Duncan was better then Parker in that Finals, Parker just got more open while they doubled Parker). Both won titles against bad teams ( Spurs over Cavs, Lakers over Nets). Duncan had monster closing games while Kobe really struggled in that game 7 vs the C's ( He shot free throws at home getting calls.)
So I ask this: Who was Better? Who was easier to build around? Who would you start a title team with? Tim Duncan or Kobe Bryant?
I think Tim Duncan is better and easier to build around because of the fact that it's so difficult to find a great big. Also, Tim Duncan brings ALOT more intangibles than Kobe Bryant. Tim Duncan is NEVER rattled as Kobe has been seen yelling at teammates and throwing temper tantrums. Tim Duncan a coaches dream, he is VERY coachable and is the perfect extension of a coach on the floor.
The way Duncan leads his team is unmatched. He never gives up on a game and doesn't let teammates give up. When Kobe's team is down, he begins ball hogging and chucking up shots from everywhere. Kobe Bryant isn't a coach on the floor, he needs a good coach for the team to be successful, (i.e. the seasons Phil Jackson was gone, so were the power house Lakers)
Tim Duncan is just legendary, you can put him with a team with Shaq in his prime, Wade in his prime, LeBron in his prime, and if Duncan is averaging 8ppg and their winning, he's happy. Unlike Kobe, who was seen as the 2nd guy while winning championships and b*tched.
Kobe can't lead a team.. Tim Duncan can.
"kobe cant lead a team...Tim Duncan can"
llperez, it ain't a lie. How many times have you seen Tim Duncan throw a temper tantrum? Have you seen Tim Duncan scream and yell at his teammates? Have you ever heard of his asking for a trade? Did he try to get Tony Parker traded after TP won a Finals MVP? Never and no.
I can go on and on all day why i would pick kobe, and i might just do that. But just to get things started. ANybody who says "kobe can not lead a team" has absolutely no credibility talking the sport of basketball, period.
I don't agree with the "Kobe cannot lead a team" but he did throw some tantrums. Also, he did do the descion before LeBron did yet noone remembers it because he went back to Los Angeles.
Go all day on it, I'm interested to see why you lean Kobe over Duncan. I laid my chips down.
When did Kobe become a leader? Was it when he was being a diva as to what team he wanted to play with and making his options Lakers only because Shaq was there? Was it when he was angry that Shaq proved he was better in 3 straight championships? Was it when he didn't want Phil Jackson because Phil knew Shaq was better? Was it when they missed the playoffs all those years when Kobe hogged the ball? Was it when he asked for a trade because he couldn't lead the team? Was it when he begged Phil Jackson to come back? Was it when he begged Derek Fisher come back? Was is when they finally put together a cast that was on a championship level? I'm not sure when it happened.. I must have been watching golf.
Tim Duncan was a leader from DAY ONE.
your talking about two greats like this u can never go wrong. but i would allways take the dominant big over the dominant guard.
Sure, but im gonna put a second into this building my argument so ill post it in a while.
"Was it when he raped that woman?"
did u really have to put that one in there?
Cool. Also, I was wrong on your boy Honeycutt. He's looking good. Potential top 5 guy IMO.
Yeah, I took it off. It had NOTHING to do with basketball.
tounge out, im honest to goodness not even reading your posts. You can build all the anti kobe arguments you want. At the end of the day, you made this comment: "kobe can not lead a team". You opinion is invalid from here on out and i would love for you to take that statemtn around ex players, coaches, GM's in the league and see how many think kobe is unable to lead a basketball team.
LOL, if you say so. Good thing you didn't read anything of mine.. you would have probably changed your display pic to a Spurs jersey afterward LMFAO
i mean if we were to have this conversation as knowledgable adults, we should be willing to admit both tim and kobe are great players and capable of leading teams. But your inability to do that tounge out as well as bringing up off court stuff like kobe's dropped rape charges shows incredibale bias on your behalf.
It's okay man.. I know I'm right. There's no reason to argue it. I'm off this post since I made my point.
yes you made your point, you dont know basketball. "kobe can not lead a team" has to be one of the dumbest things ive ever heard on this site. You do realize he has gone to 7 nba finals tight?
i mean, i have heard plenty of crazy things on this site, but kobe can not lead a team goes right up there with birdzilla saying mario chalmers is the next chris paul.
and i dont care about points, but for the people giving me thumbs down for disagreeing about kobe not being able to lead a basketball team, please step up and say who you are? i would love to hear your reasoning behind that stance?
edit: nevermind, i dont want to hear your stance. It would just make my brian hurt more.
As a Suns fan, I cannot stand watching these two guys play my team. As a basketball fan, they are awesome basketball players. I admire Tim Duncan for all he has done and how wonderful of a human being the guy is. Kobe is one of the best basketball players of all time, but I think he is a disgraceful human being. This is why I would pick Timmy. Tim Duncan is also 10X the leader Kobe ever was or ever will be. Just the way it is llperez. Kobe has picked up some leadership skills along the way, but by the time he picked those up, the damage was done in my book. Kobe vs. Duncan talent wise would be a close call for me, but I'm picking Duncan because he is as classy as they come. Plus, he's won all of his career, even when the Spurs were less talented. Kobe went through lottery seasons when they lost some talent. As a guy who dislikes the Spurs and the Lakers equally, this pick is not biased in any way.
cp33, here are some of your statements: "dunacan is wonderful humanbeing. Kobe is a disgraceful human being. Im picking duncan becasue he is as classy as he comes. This pick is not biased in any way."
COme on man, the question isnt who do you like as a person. If that was the case, then michael vick is garbage and jordan is not a leader either since he was a hard ass and punched teammates and yelled at teammates and cheated on his wife. If you want to pick how good an ahtlete is based on being Mr Rodgers have at it. Ill go with the guys who win.
Looks like they can both lead a team to me.
and just for the record, if someone wants to pick duncan like knicksboy did, then by all means, i might disagree but that is your opinion and i wouldnt waste too much time arguin it since both are great champions. BUt Im just calling out the arguments that are weak on here and make no sense.
u have yet to say why you would pick kobe over timmy D.......
also, im not sure how many of you guys play sports, but being a good leader and getting what you need out of your teammates is not all about being really nice and a swell guy who everyone likes and gets along with.
Kobe is a punk and thats why I don't want him on my team. If the Lakers were to start losing, then Kobe would go back to his old ways. Tim Duncan has never and will never do what Kobe has done. My argument about Duncan being a good human being is valid to the game of bball. Hes a better teammate and he wins no matter who surrounds him. I've never heard one complaint out of him. Duncan is a way better leader than Kobe could dream about being and thats why I choose him. You said, "Ill go with guys who win." Duncan does win championships right? Also, who has the better record?
I'll take Duncan over Kobe he doesn't always have to be the top scoring option.
Also he's a better defender and he won with less talent look at the 99 Spurs, Robinson wasn't that great no Parker, Ginobli and they swept the Lakers, Blazers. 2003 they won the title beat the 3pt Laker team, Mavs, in the West and Robinson was kind of over the hill in his last year, Parker wasn't that great esp. in the Finals. Duncan dominated Shaq and Kenyon Martin to win it all. I think Duncan is a better defender than Kobe, though Kobe is better offensively. Duncan has faced better competition at his position. I agree with Kobe when he said he has no rival, the best SG he's faced is Tmac and they only had some real battles in the playoffs that 1 year the Lakers were clearly the better team. Outside of that the only rival he's had on a yearly basis was Doug Christie, and Bruce Bowen even with Bowen being a great defender he was just a 3pt shooter on offense.
Also don't forget Kobe let his team lose the 2008 Finals Game 4 when they were up by more than 20 pts, I don't see Duncan letting his team lose that game. Another reason to take Duncan was Game 7 in 2005 against the Pistons he won them the game when they were down going up against some great defenders in Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace. Obviously you can't go wrong with either player since both are probably top 10 all time but I'd go with Duncan. There hasn't been a PF/C anywhere near as good as Duncan since he came into the league.
i said i wanted to look up some stats and stuff, but i got caught up in arguing. But just off the top of my head, kobe has more titals, 3 more finals appearances, has beaten tim head to head in the playoffs more often then not. Tim has never had less then 2 all-star claiber teammates around him. David robinson, manu ginobli, tony parker as well as numerous role players. So the whole KObe had a top 50 player with him doesnt mean much to me. Tim has had a great supporting cast and never had to go through a complete rebuilding process like kobe has had to in the prime of his career. Plus, i just think he is better. Tim hasnt been legitimately in the mvp discussion in how long again?
NYK2010, great post man. Really couldn't go wrong with either pick here. I pick Duncan because he is the better leader and has won every season he has been in the league.
"Tim hasnt been legitimately in the mvp discussion in how long again?"
thats funny and sad cuz hes the best PF to ever play the game`
why did Kobe have to go through a rebuilding process? Because he was selfish and a horrible teammate. He would rather lose without Shaq than win with him. There is no use in beating a dead horse though. Duncan is my pick all day long and Kobe is yours. You are also a Kobe fanatic. I am not a fan of either, but respect Duncan for what he has become. I'm done arguing this topic. Talking about Kobe and Duncan so much is making me relive some bad Suns moments and is making me sick.
CP33, are you really gonna use this seasons record in december as an argument.
ANd NYK2010, you bring up kobe losing in the 2008 finals but dont mention the fact that same playoffs kobe led the lakers past tims spurs in 5 games. ANd in 2009 when kobe led his team to the title, tim was getting eliminated in the first round. ANd last year when kobe led his team to his 5th title, tim was getting sewpt out of the second round not even putting up a fight.
why did kobe go through a rebuilding process? Uhm, because the lakers were old as crap. Malone retired, Payton was done, the bench was weak as hell. Basically kobe and hsaq were done with each other and the owner wisely sided with the younger more talnted guy who actually worked hard year round. The kobe/shaq lakers were done regardless and time for rebuilding was inevitable. Keep in mind as terrible as a teammate kobe was, malone said he would love to come back to the lakers even after the shaq trade but was to retire to injury. Payton was pissed he was traded to boston even after the shaq trade. Fisher came back to the lakers to play with kobe. Phil came back to the laker to coach kobe. And its not like shaq never left a team on bad terms or anything, i mean everyones always loved him right?
Some of this getting ridiculous. Kobe can lead a team, that is pretty much a fact and I don't like Kobe much at all. Llperez is right in saying if you play sports you know being a leader isn't always coddling your teammates. Sometimes you have to be brash like Kobe and Jordan and get them to step up, and as long as you win..who really cares? At the end of the day, I think winning games/championships means more then being a certain type of leader. Especially when both players have had their way work.
So it took Kobe 10 years to become a leader.. With diva moments.
Tim Duncan, day one. Without the diva moments.
tim is the best pf to ever play the game. I agree. He is a top 10 player of all time. UNlike some of you, im not trying to turn this into a bash on one of the guys thing. BUt fact is, tim has not deserved to be in the mvp discussion in quite a while.
okay, where were the Spurs projected this year? Where were the Lakers projected? Duncan is leading his team past expectations while Kobe has them a bit under expectations. Kobe is an awesome basketball player! I just really don't want that guy on my team. Sorry. Also, Michael Vick has never demanded a trade and made one horrible mistake. Vick is a story of redemption as Kobe is the same old story all over again. Do not compare the two. Jordan had his moments, but never demanded a trade. He also had a lot of arguments with his front office, but remained loyal to his organization. Kobe is in a class of his own when it comes to how unclassy he is(no pun intended). I am also throwing myself out of this argument because you fail to realize the simple argument we have been trying to make. Duncan is a way better leader than Kobe. Good night.
tim was the best player on his team from day one. Had he gone straight out of hischool instead of playing 4 years of college, he wouldnt be able to say that. Also, he would not have been the best player had he played with a prime shaq either.
WOW, I just came back to this post after like 30 min. only to find that you were talking to yourself after I left and to see cp33 and NYK2010 kill you on their replies.
So now you're bringing Shaq's prime into the conversation.. Well Kobe wouldn't have been the best guard if he had played with Jordan or Oscar Robertston or Magic in their prime. Checkmate.
Saying "Duncan wouldn't have been the best if he played with prime Shaq" That's just a pointless argument kid. This is about Kobe and Duncan not Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe
wait, vick is a story of redmtion and kobe is not? WOw, kobe has become one of the most liked and respected players in the game. He cheated on hs wife. SO did magic and michael. ALso, i seriously dont think kobe ever wanted to be traded. He was pissed and used demanding for a trade as a tool to get the team to bring help. He was actually killing potential trades by saying he wouldnt go this team or that team and saying he wouldnt go to the bulls if deng was involved knowing full well that was the only way that trade could go down. He sabotaged every possible trade out there. ANd another thing that i like to bring up, the lakers were in first place in the west and kobe had already said he wanted to remain a laker BEFORE the pau trade, just for those that dont remember.
i obviously wasnt talking to myself if there were replies. ANd again, i would love for anyone, even one single person on this thread to vouch for you that kobe can not lead a team. DOes anybody want to support toungue out on that comment that i called him on? ANybody?
wait, what? Saying kobe wasnt better then shaq is true. BUt since tim wasnt better then shaq either i think it is very valid to bring shaqs prime into it snce others want to use shaq being better then kobe against him. And who you calling kid? I got ball hairs older then you.
kobe all day.
Ill repeat, the only ting ive even been discussing with toungue out is his comment that kobe is unable to lead a team. DOes anyone want to back him on that? ANyone?
Beuhler?... Beuhler? ...Beuhler?
I don't support his claim that Kobe cannot lead, but I do support him in the fact that Tim Duncan is a better leader and has been since day 1. Kobe barely learned how to be a leader. Boy, are you Kobes little brother or something. It seems like you are in his head. You know he didn't really want to be traded? Why would anyone play with fire like that? He was nearly dealt to the Bulls. Idk where you get this idea that Kobe is this "great" leader. He is not. He is an amazing athlete and that is why he has won so much. I know I said I was done arguing this topic, but I had to put in a few more cents. I am now going to bed. I hope I don't relive that Duncan 3 pointer or the Kobe dunk over Nash in a dream as I try to sleep tonight.
I know toungue out, its late. Im sure all these people who think kobe cant lead a basketball team will come on in the morning. We can ask this again tomorrow. Maybe you can even find someone online that will back you and you can have thme create an account so you have someone who agrees with you.
I will give credit where credit is due though. I have said Kobe is not a leader but you are right in one respect. He has became an o.k. leader for his team. No where near the leader Duncan is though. I still stand by my decision to pick Duncan over Kobe. One question though perez, Do you honestly believe Kobe is a better leader than Duncan?
ask anyone who played with kobe not named shaq or chucky atkins if they respected him as a leader. I think guys who actually play with him would know best. How much has ron artest calmed down since joining kobe? How much has pau's stock risen since he joined kobe? What do you think fishers career would be remembered as if he never played with kobe? Kobe Is a great leader.
btw, llperez. your last post is invalid now. night