Wall vs Irving
Personally I think John clearly is a better facilitator which is the mark of great PG. He also is far more athletic, matches up on any PG in the league and will win battles defensively, probably going to lead all guards in blocks this season like he did last season. Can take in more rebounds than Kyrie, will dish out far more assists. I don’t know I think Wall is clearly better but people just see the PPG on Irving and go crazy. I John Wall will just keep working on that shot he has all the tools. Thoughts?
Kyrie > John.
errrrrrone knows dattt.
The gap between Kyrie Irving and John Walls athleticism is not that big; Irving's no slouch in that category either. Kyrie has been a major overachiever in his career while Wall has been slightly underachieving
I agree john wall hasnt proved anything yet. I think john wall has a chance to be better than him going foward. Kyrie is better right now of course
John Wall has the higher ceiling out of the two but will he reach it? I think Wall makes the players around him better than irving(who else does Cleveland have) as Beal has been shooting 50% since he came back and they are winning. Irving is the better player/scorer but wall is the better facilitator/playmaker
Kyrie come on man
Kyries athleticism is very underated. He just doesn;t choose to waste his engery dunking when not neccessary. Also, I do agree that Wall will average more assists than irving, I don't think it would be 'far more'. I know that everyone hates the excuse 'he is on a crap team' but I think it is the case here. I have watched every single cavs game this year and in Irvings carrer, and it is the truth. Irving does not have the luxury of being able to look for passes first, this is a terrible cavs team offensively, so he knows he needs to score first and look for his offensive first. He passing is very underated.
I don't even need to get started on how much advanced Kyries jumper is than Walls.
I think the difference between Wall and Irving in the points will be massive. Irving is dropping 24 a game at 20 years old. He has so many weapsons when it comes to scoring the basketball it is actually nuts. If he was another player defenders would gaurd him close to take away that jumper, but his drive game and attacking the rim it so good you have to guard both. I have also never seen a guard come into the game in recent years who uses to glass like he does. He has a very high understanding of angles and how to uses to glass.
Kyrie has a much better basketball IQ than Wall does. Kyrie plays like a Vet in the league and if you didn't know better you wouldn'tthink he is in his second year which shows how mature of a kid he is.
Kyrie's handle is also just nuts. He has so many different moves he can go to and use it is crazy. My favourite is his crossover to spin to layup or even the jumper.
Wall is a much better defender but Kyrie actually improving in this area with 1.8 SPG. He has shown improvemnt but it is a major weakness.
and of course his ability to win you games. With Wall i cannot see him being the player you go to for you to win the win. I remember one game Kyrie was on the bench in the 4th and said to coach Scoot " don't worry coach, I got this" and dropped 10+ points in this 5-6 mintues with clutch free throws at the death of the game. The clutch of Irving just so amazing. He has hit a game winner in 5.8% of his games in his carrer. He can beat you in so many ways whether by the jumer or going to the rim that makes him so hard to guard and therefore get so many game winners. He is a winner full stop and has no fear.
I'm tired of hearing that John Wall has made Brad Beal better because the fact of the matter is that Beal starting playing well when January came and everybody was talking about how Wall was coming back just in time because Beal was finally heating up. Now Wall is back and is the reason Beal heated up? No false. Beal was playing and shooting better before Wall got back.
And I'm tired of hearing that the reason Irving doesn't average more assists is because Cleveland doesn't have anybody. But Greivis Vasquez averaged over 9 assists playing alongside Austin Rivers building a brick castle and a bunch of D Leagers.
Fact is you dont have to have other good player to average more assists you just need players who can finish and shoot. The Cavs have people who can hit outside shots and finish. Thompson is a great finisher, Zeller got soft hands, both of them guys are effective in the PnR. Gee, Gibson, Miles Walton, and Waiters can all hit outside shots. If Irving wanted to he could surely average atleast 7apg.
Holiday is averaging 9apg playing on a team full of players that can't finish at the rim, or hit open shots.
I think the Cavs and Chris Grant know this too that;s why they drafted a guy like Waiters when everybody thought they should of been looking for a shooter like Barnes. They knew they needed another playmaker and facilitator.
Anyways Irving is clearly the better PG now and his future looks mega bright. Yes Wall defends and passes better, but Kyrie is a clear Franchise player and number one option, something Wall hasn't proven to be yet.
I do think Wall will become the better PG tho. It's sorta like Rondo vs Rose
Completely agree, but I do have to say, Austin Rivers was building a brick mansion, that guy can't sink a shot for his life, shooting 33% on the season, and just 24% in his past 14 games. He's also 2-17 from three in that span. And I think Rubio is also part of that club as well, shooting 25% from the field on the season and 1-15 from three on the season. If I didn't know any better I'd mistake him for the third little pig.
And since we're talking about pathetic field goal percentages, Nazr Mohammed is 8-46 from the field shooting 17% from the field.....and he's a big man.
very simple answer....
wall is on his way to being elite - still growing
kyrie is elite...period. switch him with any pg on a playoff team and they are contenders. his ability to score the basketball is so fun to watch and incredible. i see so much AI in him...just his ability to score when he wants being a small guard although iverson was a lot smaller.
Basically if your team already has good scorers/shooters , then you want Wall. If not then Irving. Pretty simple.
The gap between them isn't as big as people think.
I don't care that i got down voted, i just want to know why people would disagree with this statement.
Wall is not a good half court PG. He's a drive and kicker and transition player, not a pure distributor. He's not even a good PnR player.
Irving has the skill and game to play with any type of personnel, any system, half court or more open system, on the ball or off the ball, PnR heavy, motion offense heavy... it doesn't matter. He's very smart and reads the game well too. Surround him with a bunch of scorers and I doubt he'd still be taking as many shots as he does currently.
Remenber when people were saying it stinks that the Cavs won the draft lotto in a year where there wasn't any clear cut number one or a John Wall type prospect at the top.
huh? Irving was the clear cut no. 1 that year.
It was obvious who Cleveland was going to pick once they won the lottery. He may not have John wall's athleticism or potential but he is much more skilled right now.
No we wasn't. There were a ton of threads on this site saying Williams should go on. They talked about on PTI how the Cavs should of went Williams and Knight instead of Irving Thompson. Irving was not the clear first choice. It might of been obvious but it wasn't clear cut.
A better question is, Irving vs. Holiday?
Wall is the better point guard, Kyrie is the better player right now.
How much longer will two dimes keep this insane comparison going?
John Wall has a LOT to prove.
He's the savior of idiots who've fallen in love with ultra-athletic PGs, only to see them surpassed by young PGs whose games are built on superior skillsets, like Lillard, Jrue and obviously Kyrie.
Wall isn't even clearly better than Jeff Teague.
I'm going to get negged but I don't care. Kyrie Irving is overrated. He isn't the next Chris Paul. He can't even lead his team to a winning record or be close to .500, and don't come with that he has no one on his team crap. Everyone is calling him a franchise star. Well, Franchise players.. CHANGE FRANCHISES. He averages a lesser amount of assists than Brandon Jennings, whom everyone says is an average passer. He's second in the league in turnovers behind 3 players tied for 1st.(Jrue Holiday, Rajon Rondo, James Harden) Yes that means he averages more turnovers than Westbrook, John Wall, and Deron Williams who are the turnover machines in the NBA. His team is 13-32. His defense is still pretty nonexistent at this point. He's a great scorer he puts up great numbers on the offensive end, but a Franchise Star, he is not. Now of course he still has time to grow and maybe he will be that star but just stop it, there is more to the game of basketball than points.
And this isn't an advocation of John Wall, he has things he needs to improve also, this is simply stating that this overhyped Kyrie Irving love fest needs to stop.
People kept putting down Brandon Jennings last week but he does everything better than Kyrie Irving except SCORE. More assists, more rebounds, more steals, more blocks, less turnovers, less fouls. He even goes to the free throw line more. His team is also above .500. Kyrie Irving has better shooting percentages than Brandon Jennings and that's all. Stop being in love and actually look at the game.
You are simply a flat out hater. Kyrie gets the same number of boards as Jennings and literally a couple of tenths less in steals and dimes and you wanna use this EVIDENCE to prove he's on Kyrie's level.
GET OVER IT. He's younger and better. And I'm a Jennings fan. I supported him when people said Rubio was better than him.
And he doesn't get to the line more. You really think you can just say stuff and not get checked, don't you?
Man, you haters are something else.
You obviously don't know how to comprehend. I never stated I was trying to prove Brandon Jennings is on Kyrie Irving's level. I simply used a player people always down to show a stat differential.
Brandon Jennings gets to the line 3.9 times a game and Kyrie gets to the game 3.8. That's as of right now. Brandon jennings was actually at 4.2, 2 days ago. Go look it up. If you're going to try to argue. fact check first. It's not hating if it's the truth. FRANCHISE STARS-CHANGE FRANCHISE'S. Cleveland is 13-32. Point made.
"stop being in love and actually look at the game"
I have actually watched the games and most of the people here have as well. Have you?
Because most of us here have watched Kyrie single handly take over game after game. The guy is putting up stats in tremendous efficiency that is putting up there with the all time greats and he is only 20 years old.
The Cavs have a sh!t record because Kyrie has been hurt for a bout 10 games and the management have actively tried to lose as many as games as possibly. They just got Mareese Speights and Wayne Ellington and they might be shipped out soon because they're probably the next best players on the team after Kyrie. That is kind of funny but pathetic as well.
Kyrie is definitely not a tremendous passer, but just looking at the shooting percentages of his teammates save Thompson (all he can really do is dunk) you can feel a little sympathy for what Kyrie has to work with.
What are you a John Wall fan? A Jennings fan? Because you seem to be pretty salty that Kyrie Irving is already better than both of them and is on his way to becoming one of the top 3 if not the best PG in the league.
You've seen him take over the game scoring. When have you seen him take over the game doing anything else? Honest Question. When have you seem him win a game with his defense? When have you seen him win a game with his passing? Seriously. If you point it out to me. I'll be happy to look at it, but until Kyrie Irving can do more than score he's not a franchise star.
I like John Wall, I like Brandon Jennings, I like Kyrie Irving also. People on this site just need to stop blowing his skills. He's a TREMENDOUS SCORER. Last time, I checked there was more to basketball.
People need to stop using that teammate argument. Seriously we can all name number 1 picks, who have tremendously improved their team after 1 year.
Personally, I get sick of hearing about John Wall's "potential." Last I checked this is his 3rd year, is it not? And with his potential, what exactly does he have the "potential" to become? NBA Analysts are saying how Kyrie is turning into the CP3 mold, and one Analyst proclaimed that he'd be the top point guard in the league in 2 more years. So what is John Wall's "potential"? What's his comparison?
It's taking Kyrie much less time to reach his "potential," so how long until we realize John Wall isn't going to get DRASTICALLY better like everyone seems to think. Trust me, I love Wall's game. So quick, so athletic. Fun to watch. But why is Kyrie taking LESS time to be reach his "potential" when John Wall is struggling to reach his?
Next year is the ultimatum year IMO.
Potential is Point guard d-wade, with Gray Payton defense.
Irving will probably always be a better scorer.
you cant judge how good players will be just because of how much time it takes them to develop. Kyrie's offensive game has always been more polished than Wall's, but I warn you not to make the mistake of getting caught up in the numbers game.
I said it before and have no problem saying it again. John Wall is like a mini-version of Magic the way he can rebound the ball and go coast to coast. He can almost always guarantee a finish, whether its him or a teammate. That is a skill that doesnt come along everyday.
The issue is with these comparisons is things arent like they were in Magic's day. Magic went to a team that was loaded with talent, had he not, he may have struggled early too.
You guys are kidding yourself if you think one player is clearly going to be the better player because he peaks faster than another.
Take 2 guys like Billups and Bibby, drafted one year apart. It took Billups much longer to reach his peak than it did Bibby. If you were comparing those two in the first 6 years of their career, Bibby was clearly better. Who turned out to be the better player though? Billups by a mile.
If they both stay healthy, I think Wall will be better. Cavsfan, dont let you bias blind you. You cant simply say Kyrie is going to be better just because his career is off to a better start. Players develop at different rates according to their circumstances.
If i had to choose one point guard to be with the ball on his hand with the game on the line it would be kyrie. His ability to make shots at the fourth quarter is incredible. Jonh wall has a long way to go until he reaches that.
Were you high when you made that post lol? I can respect people who go against the grain, but you at least have to state accurate information and make a legit point.
Jennings does NOT average more blocks (.4 to .1), free-throw attempts (5.2 to 3.9) or rebounds (3.6 to 3.6). And assists wise, Jennings averages 6 and Irving 5.6. Let's be real here... Jennings is a career 5.5 guy. 6 is a career high. Steals wise, Jennings averages 1.9 and Irving 1.7. I mean, come on... Fouls wise, Irving averages 2.7 fouls and Jennings 1.8, but who cares... The only stat that is significant is turnovers, which Irving does average 3.6 compared to Jennings 2.6. You have a lot of biased/hypocritical users on this site, but I won't give Irving's turnovers a pass.
However, when you compare them offensively (not just scoring, but offensively as a whole) it's just not even close. Are you ignoring the type of efficiency Irving brings to the table compared to the inefficiency that Jennings does? Jennings is a career 39-40% guy, who settles for the long three-pointer even though he's an average three-point shooter. Irving is giving you 24.2 points on 47.5% FG, 41% 3PT and 84.7% 3PT. Throw in 3.6 rebounds. 5.6 assists and 1.7 steals. Then include the fact this guy just goes off in the 4th quarter and raises his game up several notches. IF his numbers aren't good enough, just use the eye test. He has it.
While winning is always important, I think you should place that aside with Irving right now. He missed 11 games and the leading rebounder on a poor rebounding team is out for the season. This is also a poor defensive team. Even Kevin Durant has been on 20 and 23 win teams.
Irving is definitely a franchise player in my mind. I don't mind saying it right now. He's a player you can build your team around. He'll fill your arena and be the face of your franchise... He can be a face for the league. The wins are going to come. My main worry is his health. IF he stays healthy, he's a lock to reach superstar status and the Cavs will be playing in meaningful games.
Umm actually I don't smoke and I mentioned Kyrie efficient scoring over Brandon Jennings, and as of 4 days ago, all of my stats were accurate and still accurate, except free throw attempts. I looked at the wrong year on ESPN. I was actually having an argument on this site about the all star game mentioning this. So if you want to go and subtract their last 2-3 games, you'd see that. I'm not telling you to do it, but you'll see.
Brandon Jennings steals and rebound averages dropped since that time to make that closer, so take it with a grain of salt, but besides Shooting percentages, Know one on this site can find something his better than Brandon Jennings at. Seriously. Every stat besides scoring is better, and I'm not even saying Brandon is better, than Kyrie because he's not, his woeful shooting drops his total game down a ton. I simply used Brandon Jennings and other players as a comparison point to show. Kyrie is one of the best scoring point guards and that's about it.
If you compare his game to other scoring point guards, such as the likes of Rose and Westbrook, they bring more to the game than scoring, and that's all Kyrie brings. That's not hating, that's not me smoking, that's the truth, and as I said earlier, he can definitely improve that but we're talking about NOW. As of NOW, he isn't a FRANCHISE PLAYER, and as of NOW, he isn't anything more than a AMAZING SCORER.
If john wall wasnt injured he would be a all star this year and his team would have a better record.. Injuries are apart of the game he cant help that
John Wall is the more athletic player but is nowhere near the basketball player that Kyrie Irving has become. Not say he can't get there, but Kyrie is demonstrating regularly that he can dominate an entire game
at the NBA level....game domination only applies when your team wins the game. really it doesnt matter if you dominate and your team loses. when Rondo dominates....Boston normally wins. Likewise with CP3, Lebron, etc..
what I am saying is....its better to compare when things are closer to being equal as far as teammates and such, then you can see who is doing what and how they are able to do it. We cant tell much about Kyrie or John right now to truly separate them except they are both good individual players. The only true separation is one is having better season than the other. Someone said put Kyrie on a good team and they would be a contender...the same could be said for not only Wall, but Lillard as well.
Again, Kyrie is no joke, but dont get over enamored with the scoring. Do you know how many players there have been that have finished in top 5 scoring but didnt make All NBA...some not even the All Star game? Furthermore, I dont see the CP3 comparions....CP3 had some garbage players in N.O. and he was winning games.
Kyrie Irving has a way better basketball IQ at this point in time which is where i see the biggest difference. Irving has the ball on a string when he's dribbling and looks way more under control when he has the ball. He can run any style of offense and he absolutely cannot be left open on the perimeter.
Also like someone said, he is already one of the clutchest players in the game and there isn't really many other players I would want to have the ball in end game situations. As of right now it is Kyrie > Wall, although I agree that Walls ceiling is way higher and he can still grow to be afar better player than Kyrie... We'll see though.
As for whoever was saying franchise players change franchises, you can look at kevin durant for example and see that his team was garbage for the first two season as well so just give these young players some time. It doesn't happen right away.