Wall over Rubio???
Are you serious? Who in there mind would draft John Wall, a combo guard with no experience playing against grown men, over Ricky Rubio, a 'once in a decade pure point' who has consistently outplayed seriously competitive men in the gruelling Euroleague basketball. Pencil in Rubio as a sure shot top 5 pick, and no lower than Wall.
All of you that are raving about Wall have probably only seen him on youtube. Take it from someone that has seen him play in person. He is a FANTASTIC athlete. Some of the things is does on the basketball court are just jawdropping. He runs down the court like a blur and can jump out of the gym.
However the Derrick Rose comparisons REALLY need to be put on hold for now. He has the potential to get there, but he isn't close yet. He relies almost entirely on his athleticism. His release point on his jumper is way too inconsistant. His ability to operate in a half court game needs a TON of improvement. He tries to make the flashy play instead of the necessary one making him turnover prone. Last and not least, his attitude needs to be put in check. He rolls his eyes at the coach a ton. He throws temper tantrums on the court when things don't go his way, and doesn't play defense. The only defense I have seen him play this season is fighting for a defensive rebound to run the break or trying to make a highlight reel block. His HS team has 3 very legit Division 1 prospects in him, CJ Leslie and Bishop Daniels and have lost 6 games this season. There was only two games they should lose on their schedule to Christ School and St. Patricks, but other than that, I don't see much room for excuses against the competition they see.
Rose was a notch above Wall at the same stage in terms of shooting. He ran the halfcourt set just as well as he ran the break. He was calm, and cool. He didn't let things get to him. He was also stronger than Wall at the same stage.
Take this info from someone that has seen him play 3 times this season. He is a freak athlete with a ton of potential, but he is a risky pick IMHO. Nothing that can't be fixed with this prospect, but he still has a LONG way to go before I would consider him a number 1 pick. He will be top 5 based on potential alone. However if you are going to take him after one year of college, you gotta find someone who can put his attitude in check, and get him in the right system for him to succeed.
I am really pulling for the kid. His talent is downright scary! If he can put it together he will be a superstar. For those of you who think he is better than Rose however, need to tone down the expectations for now.
Wall doesn't have the experience but is seen as derrick rose type player, take that into consideration and you can see why GM's will take Wall over Rubio. While I do think Rubio is going to have a Jason Kidd type career in the NBA, GM's these days will take a player who resembles a combo-guard like D-wade over pass-first guard like Kidd because they feel the first has a better chance at winning championships and maybe filling a few seats in stands.
I'm not sold on Ricky... The reason is there isn't enough footage for me to say he is a bona fide star. I think his athleticism is overrated as well as his defense (Name one European thats a elite defender). His shot is horrible but he IS more of a PG than John Wall. And please don't compare Ricky to J-Kidd. J-Kidd in his prime was faster, bigger, and had more intangibles than any other PG in the league (i.e. rebound monster). Ricky is more like what his profile said Steve Nash, but with no Jumper I don't know what to say. John Wall is definitely the way to go at worst he could be Russell Westbrook (look at this guy this year) with better handles. John Wall is very explosive I believe more so than Westbrook and D-Rose.
I'm tired of hearing about this Grown Man crap. You rarely have European players that come to this League that's not soft. And the same was said for Darko... In fact NBA Draft.net had an interview with Darko, he said he has been playing with grown men while LeBron been dominating boys his age. Darko was taken ahead of Melo, D-Wade, Bosh, and Hinrich!!!. Playing against grown men is an overrated term to use people (especially like my man said he averages 6 and 6). Young Europeans don't make it in this league (or it takes a while to develop). So people need to chill out on that.
rubio will average more steals in the nba than chris paul. that is not to say he is better than paul, or even better than john wall will be. but when people are saying he cannot be as good as jason kidd, because jason kidd was a great rebounder. that is simply not true. the lack of rebounds and three pointers that rubio will get in the nba will more than be made up in his assists, steals, and drives to the basket. that being said, i think wall will be drafted higher and have a better nba career than ricky but they will both be perennial all stars in their primes.
Don't say he will have more steals than Paul. Thats a what if. And if, an IF was a fifth, we will all be drunk right now. So negate that statement. Now, IF you read that whole sentence you would see that I said bigger and faster as well. Not just rebounding. J-Kidd averages over 9 assists and 2 steals per game for his career. For Ricky to make up the lack of rebounding or whatever, he would have to average at least 14 and 4 steals a game... Just don't see it happening... Thats why I said Steve Nash is a better comparison... The difference between Nash and Ricky is that Ricky has a knack for stealing the ball and doesn't have a jumper. Other than that, no difference.
I cant believe u would even say that. That will never happen. Rubio will be like sergio rodriguez for portland but Wall will be like Derrick Rose and then Brandon Jennings will be better than both of them.I doubt that Jennings is a winning player though, so if I had to choose which one will win me the most games I would choose Wall.
dont call me a retard, you punk. did you watch rubio in the olympics? i dont think you did, cause rubio averaged 2.1 steals per game as a 17 YEAR OLD. including 4.6 steals per 40 minutes, as compared to chris paul's 2.3 and 4.1. and in the championship game vs. the usa he had 3 steals, picking the pocket of the greatest players in the world. if you actually watched videos of him on youtube, you would see he is two inches taller than paul, w/ quicker hands, and longer arms. saying rubio could have more steals than paul does not make me retarded. and as for the guy who said kidd is stronger and faster, he may be stronger. but i dont think you are old enough to have seen kidd as a young player. i am and he was not as fast as you think, and he is certainly not been fast for the last 4 or 5 years of his career. and why is rubio going to be like sergio rodriguez? because they are both spanish? that is simple reasoning for a simple kid, which you are. question, besides lebron james, and oj mayo, who is a basketball player that has been hyped since he was 13 years old? answer ricky rubio. i think that is good company.
Wall has the clear advantage in the athletic department, speed and hops, Rubio has the advantage in the experience deparment and is a better defender. Both lack a good jumshot.
Wall best case Derrick Rose equal shooting at best
Rubio best case Steve Nash with a broken shot
Worst case: Dooling and Rodriguez respectively
As much as I hate to say it (I am A HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE Memphis Tigers fan) I don't see why John Wall is so impressive. I followed Derrick Rose since his junior year and honestly I dont think he's Rose incarnate. Rose has that extra gear and a knack for getting rebounds. Wall is just good defensively and makes some sweet passes, while Rose did everything you could ask a guard to do. Rubio however I see the potential and why they say he's the next Nash, and I was totally against him as well, until I saw the olympics and the way he almost had Spain beat the US was well, magnificent. So in conclusion, I'd take Rubio he's a PURE POINT, very hard to come by.
Wall by far has more potential...
Rubio will be SOLID, but he doesn't have any part of his game that stands out...he has a terrible jumper (so does Wall though) and he's not an explosive athlete. He's a pretty good passer at best and he clearly has a weak frame that won't be able to add weight. Outside the fact that he is a good defender, a good passer, and he has a good feel for the game I don't see what the big deal is.
btw...Rubio will NEVER EVER EVER average more steals than Paul.
I think both of them have a ton of potential. Rubio seems like more of a sure thing, he is too good and too young and from all accounts is a fiery kid and a hard worker and leader, so i cant imagine him bieng anything less than a starter on a competitive team. He is also a very fun player to watch, love him or hate him you are paying attention to him when he is on the court. I could see him being great, I could see him bieng a better rounded Nash (not saying he will but the tools are there). With Wall, it wouldn't shock me one bit if he turned into a Keyon Dooling Clone. He is a crazy athlete, but basketball isnt track so other things matter. I think he can be great, after a season in college ball we will have a much clearer picture, but I definately do not see anyyy Derrick Rose connections. Everybody knew that kid was a lock, he is a better athlete in my opinion, just as fast and explosive except build like a tank. He is a proven winner with a great attitude and work ethic. Wall has a ways to go, so Id say if i was makin a choice right now id take Rubio, but id probably be nervous about it for a long time, theyre both great prospects.
Now Ima call you a retard. And that PER 48 min. crap is an IF too. And you know how I feel about that. The reason I call you an idiot is because J-Kidd WAS fast!!! Are you serious? at Cal, Mavericks, Suns, and part of the Nets... Majority of his career he was called the fastest PG in the League... Thats crazy for you to say that... And just because Ricky was hyped doesn't mean he is going to live up to it.... LOL... How is that an arguement? (by the way no one knew of LBJ in that way until ABCD camp going into his Jr year vs. LENNY COOK, I doubt he was 13!!!). Never seen Ricky pick the pocket of an NBA player thats considered on the ball steals. For a guy to have 6 pts. and play 30 plus min. playing with his rules and the European type of play he shoulda did more. I'm not sold. Look how B. Jennings is handling Europe. You really think a HYPED, HYPED, prospect from Europe thats 18 or 19 will dominate in another country with the NBA?
tuck243 I've agreed with most posts (this being the exception) most of us knew who LeBron was! he tried to enter the NBA before his junior year! (and then senior year again!) but sadly David I mean Dick Stern wouldn't let him in because he was too young.
gooden you are out of control, i thought we talked about this. once again to reiterate for those of you who cannot read a full paragraph. in the olympics rubio as a 17 YEAR OLD averaged 2.1 steals per game and 4.6 per 40 minutes, while chris paul averaged more steals per game at 2.3 but far less per 40 minutes at 4.1 what about this tells you all that rubio cannot average more steals in the nba than rubio? in addition rubio is 3 inches taller, w/ quicker hands, and has at least 8 more inches of wingspan than paul. all of which would support my claim that rr will average more steals in the nba than cp3. you 13 year old kids on here that have just started watching basketball need to calm down, and respect those that have been watching the game a lot longer than you have. and tuck what is your obsession with jason kidd? the guy has never been a winner, and has been run out of town from every team he has ever been on. you need to concentrate on the junior high dance tonight and less on calling someone on the internet who you will never see face to face a retard.
How dont you see ANY comparison to Rose. John Wall is just as athletic. What? Derrick Rose is a great player and will be for years to come. He uses his athleticism alot. But if you are stronger and faster than the player thats guarding you WHY WOUDN'T Wall use it? Lebron isn't a very skilled player but he dominates because of his athleticism. Same with Amar'e. Yes. John Wall at this stage of his career is lacking as far as skills than D. Rose. But with his potential, he can get up to Rose's level. Wall has alot of Swag on the court (but can hot dog it too much) if he can tone it down a bit I think he will become one of the best players to watch.
tuck243, I think Wall is a more athletic Rondo. The only comparison I can see to Rose is they are both 6'4" and fast. After that IMHO it stops. Rose had much better body control and could run the half court set to perfection. There was a reason he made a lot of comparisons to a more athletic Jason Kidd and Deron Williams becuase he was that good in the half court set and made great decisions. Grant it there were games when he made freshman mistakes, but overall he was a fantastic decision maker. As far as athleticism goes, Rose uses it alot but not as exclusively as Wall does.
I would call Wall a below average decision maker because he hot dogs WAY too much. As far as the athleticism standpoint goes he can get away with using his athleticism exclusively on the HS level, but in the NBA and even in college? That is another story.
Again I am really pulling for Wall and I agree he does have the potential to get to Rose's level. My point is though that it is more farther away than people realize and he needs to work harder than most people think to reach it. Take it from someone who has seen him play 3 different times this season.
Wall, in my opinion is a taller Rondo with a slightly better jumper. That is quite a compliment considering that Rondo is slowly turning into one of the leagues best players. I think Wall has a promosing future he just needs to improve his maturity and his jumper
J-Kidd never been a winner? Yes he never won a championship. But neither has LBJ, Barkley, oh and Ricky Rubio. But what he has done is become one of the Top 3 PG's ever. and Has more trips to the NBA Finals than LBJ, Barkley, and Ricky. It seems like you discredit Kidd for his production now and not for what he did before. You are the one who is too young to remember the old days. LOL... And Ricky has quicker hands than paul? How do you know? LOL.. You watched both doing martial arts? LOL... Stop saying what a player is going to average in the NBA. You don't know. Especially if he didn't play 1 game in the league. Mike Beasley had plenty of 20 board games last year. It took him half the year in the league to get 10 in one game... Your arguement is not valid and should be negated....
you are so annoying, lol. lbj has made it to a championship, w/ zero supporting cast. i dont know what rubio will do in the nba obviously, lol. i am merely speculating, therefore you cannot call me a retard for guessing what could happen lol. and what beasley did in college is irrelevant, that was in college. what is a higher level of competition, the ncaa or olympics? i think what a kid does in the olympics is a lot more representative of what they will do in the nba than college basketball. way to use negated, didnt know that was an 8th grade vocab. word, how can you possible say kidd is a top 3 pg all time? paul and deron williams have been in the league for less than 5 years and they are already superior players. you need to check your facts before you make outlandish claims.
Are you tryin to say deron williams and chris paul are better pg's than kidd when he was in his heyday?? and trust me,rubio wont be a starter in the nba. i guarantee it.
This will be the last time I will comment on whatever you say because you are a retard. First, I never said LBJ never reached the Finals. I said Kidd has more trips to the finals (LEARN HOW TO READ). Second, LBJ had the same amount of talent J-Kidd did. J-Kidd had RJ and K-Mart. LBJ had Z, Gooden, Boobie, Marshall, and Larry Hughes. J-Kidd MADE RJ and K-Mart. Third, Chris Paul hasn't done anything that J-Kidd havn't already done. ROY, All-Star, Gold medal, triple doubles, are all checked... How about Deron Williams never made it to an All-Star team. How about CP3 and D-Will were learning from J-Kidd in the Olympics. Carrying his bags!! You need to check some facts before you make outlandish comments. Ricky numbers didn't jump out in the Olympics. NBA is a different style of play than the Euro leagues (Olympics included). And that dumb as comment that you are speculating and guessing, just shows you dont know what in the hell you are talking about. Im done talking to you because its obvious you are clueless....
LBJ wasn't known on a national level until going into his junior year... And he didn't try to go to the NBA as a Sophmore in High School that's non-sense. The big thing that summer at ABCD was Lenny Cooke vs. LBJ... LBJ dominated Lenny and went into the greatest HYPED high school player ever... But of course all the HYPE was true........... Keep in mind I said LeBron was going INTO his junior year not after..........
doesnt anybody think that there's a reason that rubio is on every single draft site a top two pick, i mean professionals should know a little. him playing against adults does mean something, which ricky proved against the USA team. anyone who tries to use some argument like it's different than nba basketball or whatever doesnt understand. european bball is harder for guards than nba basketball (a reason why jennings and childress stats look terrible) since 3 seconds in the lane doesnt exist. plus, during the olympics, the reason that USA did so good was their suffocating defense on the guards, causing turnovers and gettign them tons of fastbreak opprotunities. the reason spain was able to stay competetive was their guards. navarro, calderon and ricky. if chris paul and d will's defense couldnt stop ricky while he's playing on a smaller court (olympic court) with FIBA rules, i think he's going to do just fine in the nba. how is this not a legit argument? john looks good, but will his court vision and basketball I.Q. ever be better than ricky's? not at all, not even arguable. and darko never developed, because he wasn't used by larry brown.
Chris Paul and D-Will didn't stop Ricky? LOL.... What did Ricky do on offense? He held his own against them yes... But blown out of the water, hell no... The only good thing is he had 3 steals off the ball... What you need to do is look at the article about the top five players and see what GM's say about him... One Gm told the Journalist that Ricky couldn't gaurd you!!! LOL... The play in the Olympics is overrated... Carlos Arryo? Remember him... Or how about Patrick Mills at St. Mary's isn't doing so well now huh? Im not saying Ricky will not be good, but his game is more similar to Steve Nash. Wall is more so D-Rose. If you read the beginning post the dude said who in there mind would draft Wall over Ricky. I said I would because Ricky is good but not great. And why wouldn't you take an explosive PG? Especially with the new hand checking rule... And Darko... I dont care about he wasn't used... Stop giving these grown as men excuses on why they aren't producing....
about the gm reference... what do gm's really know about prospects? i dont think they'd be experts, cause they hire specific people with the purpose of scouting them, unless that gm is just reiterating what his scouts said. im not sure why the gm would say that, but i guess he know more than me. all i know is that he plays great defense in europe, he did it in the olympics, and at the least he'd be an amazing ball hawk in the nba. besides, that was one gm. what do the others have to say? he might not be explosive, but he isnt slow in anyway. in fact he's very fast. what people dont seem to understand is that you can get by without Vince carter athleticism in the nba, especially if youre a point guard. a point guard with incredible instincts. hes obviously faster than nash, puts more effort on defense, and has the potential to be a better passer. plus, for all of you bashing his J, according to the same gm referenced by tuck, he's going to have a good J.
now about wall. yeah he looks good, because he's unhumanly athletic, but he's playing against kids. brandon jennings was a very similar player, however when he made that immediate jump to the pros, you see its not as easy as it looked back in high school. his decision making isnt good, and worst of all, he's a baby. he thinks he's some kind of superstar without ever having accomplished anything. now im not saying he wont be good, but he looks like he doesnt give a damn, or that he has no motivation to challenge himself. compare that to derrick rose, one of the nicest and humblest people around.
I love this thread!!!! If you guys have heard the news, John Wall has just been selected to play in the 2009 Nike Hoops Summit...and if Nike honor and respect our wishes by selecting Ricky Rubio to the World Select Team, the Wall vs. Rubio showdown could be set for April 11th. Yes Sir!!!
But let me clarify some things about John Wall:
I can't believe someone has claimed to have seen Wall play but says that he plays no defense...are you kidding me?? I have seen Wall play numerous times in person and over webcast (springfieldwebtv.com and wazoosports.com). The kid is one hell of a defender (when he stays focused). I mean, he is the point guard of his high school team leading the team in steals and 2ND on the team in BLOCKS PER GAME (despite playing with 6'9" fowards Leslie and Drane...and 6'6" foward Baines). This is a point guard people!!! Earlier this month he registered back to back 8-blocks performances (2/4/09-8blks vs. Ravenscroft; 2/7/09-8blks vs. Lawrence Academy). Once again, this is a POINT GUARD!!!!
And the Rose comparison:
The Rose comparison is dead-on, however I think a lot of you are comparing Rose (a freshman at Memphis) to Wall (a senior at Word of God Christian Academy). It's not a fair comparison...seeing that Rose had undergone tutorledge of a future Hall of Fame college coach and Wall has yet to do so. However, if you compare Derrick Rose the senior in high school to John Wall the senior in high school...I would give Wall the SLIGHT advantage...due to the fact that Wall is a better passer and a better on-the-ball defender than Rose was in high school. However, you cannot argue the fact that Rose was stronger and had more upper-body strength. Aside from those areas, they are pretty even: height, speed, quickness, handles, leaping ability, athleticism, shooting, basketball IQ, heart, etc.
Once again people, compare Rose in a Simeon jersey and a Mean Streets Express jersey to Wall in a Word of God Jersey and a D-One Sports jersey. It's no secret that Rose stepped up his level of play in college and hopefully Wall can do the same thing and, hopefully, at the same college...Memphis.
John Wall's attitude:
The kid does have a "slight" attitude...it's gotten a WHOLE lot better as he has grown. But, a lot of the mannerisms that you guys are mistaken for "attitude" is more-like passion for the game. Dude is a passionate player and he is going to get pissed and frustrated when he loses or when "things don't go his way". Other than Carmelo Anthony, who else smiles when they are losing?? C'mon people!! Most of the emotions you see from Wall on the court, is passion for the game...and not attitude towards the coach or his teammates. I tell you what, next time you see Wall play live, try walking up to him and talk to him after the game...it will shock you to see just how approachable and laid back he is.
I put it like this, Wall's attitude is more like Brian Dawkins' than Terrell Owens'. On the field, Dawkins becomes this insane beast who's passion just pours out of his skin and he takes it out on his opponents. However, when he steps off the field, Dawkins is real calm, soft spoken and laid back...that's John Wall. Meanwhile, when T.O. steps on the field he turns into this passionate player who's attitude's and emotions, usually, turns into a cancer that destroys his own team. And when he steps off the field, he's still extremely emotional and volatile...unlike Wall.
And as far as Ricky Rubio:
Whoever said that he can't rebound, hasn't really followed Rubio that much. I must remind you that Rubio had a QUADRUPLE double in the U16 Olympics two years ago, in which he grabbed over 20 rebs. In the U16 finals, he followed that up with a 50-pt performance and triple double (24 rebs, 12 assists). Now, I'm not saying that he is going to snag 9 rbg in the NBA, I'm just pointing out the fact that his resume does consist of some amazing rebounding performances. I wouldn't argue NOR doubt the whole "more steals than CP3" argument...I mean, Rubio does have amazingly quick hands!!! Just amazing!!!!
But to answer the thread, I don't think a NBA franchise would go wrong in drafting Wall or Rubio or Jennings. You cannot go wrong with either one of these three guys running the point for you. However, the draft position depends solely on that teams' need. Sort of like the Deron vs. CP3 draft argument...both teams got what the needed and it is working out well for both clubs...there is no real argument...the only thing you can do is nitpick.
Really Tuck? Lebron isn't that skilled? That could be the one of the top dumbest statements I have ever read on this forum, thanks for making me feel stupid.