[shipargosParticipant]

Kurt Rambis plays the triangle offense in the T`wolves. But there is something that doesnt sound right in my mind, Ricky Rubio.

Ricky will be a great player, but as i understand the triangle, you just need a point guard with range and that can play defense in order to run it. Rubio is a great playmaker that will be a total waste of talent at the point in that system. So why Kahn wants Rubio so badly, it is because of his tradeable value?

with rubio on the point, will Kahn fire Rambis and hire a coach that plays a another type of offense?

Or its just he is dumb as a GM?

Any comments really appreciated

[lolyouthParticipant]

Who knows what Kahn is thinking? The guys loves to draft 5 point guards a year. I don’t think he thinks about what players fit into his system. Good GM’s think about that, I don’t think Kahn is a good GM, sorry. Everyone knows that the Triangle offense is a tough offense to run. Phil Jackson used it to lead Chicago and L.A. to over 10 titles. But that’s Phil Jackson not Kurt Rambis.

I don’t think that offense will ever be successful in Minnesota. If Rubio ever decides to come over here and play for the Timberwolves (leaving his future in Kahn’s hands, which is understandably scary) they need to ditch that and just find a run and gun type offense similar to D’antoni’s 7 seconds or less system.

Sorry Timberwolves fans, your in the Lottery for years to come.

[lolyouthParticipant]

Who knows what Kahn is thinking? The guys loves to draft 5 point guards a year. I don’t think he thinks about what players fit into his system. Good GM’s think about that, I don’t think Kahn is a good GM, sorry. Everyone knows that the Triangle offense is a tough offense to run. Phil Jackson used it to lead Chicago and L.A. to over 10 titles. But that’s Phil Jackson not Kurt Rambis.

I don’t think that offense will ever be successful in Minnesota. If Rubio ever decides to come over here and play for the Timberwolves (leaving his future in Kahn’s hands, which is understandably scary) they need to ditch that and just find a run and gun type offense similar to D’antoni’s 7 seconds or less system.

Sorry Timberwolves fans, your in the Lottery for years to come.

[McWinningParticipant]

I actually think a run and gun style would work.

Love could grab down around 14 boards a game and is a great outlet passer, Martell Webster i think would be a good run & gun hes just played on a slow tempo team.

Now they just need to add more pieces.

[McWinningParticipant]

I actually think a run and gun style would work.

Love could grab down around 14 boards a game and is a great outlet passer, Martell Webster i think would be a good run & gun hes just played on a slow tempo team.

Now they just need to add more pieces.

[gainsey15Participant]

The thing about the Triangle is there are different schemes you can run with it, the Lakers don’t run a pure Triangle offense and at times they completely go out of the Triangle (last finals vs the Celtics more of a screen and roll), so I believe that the Wolves would be able to run a little more out of the Triangle.

[gainsey15Participant]

The thing about the Triangle is there are different schemes you can run with it, the Lakers don’t run a pure Triangle offense and at times they completely go out of the Triangle (last finals vs the Celtics more of a screen and roll), so I believe that the Wolves would be able to run a little more out of the Triangle.

[NorthernLights666Participant]

That they’re going to have a “running” offense, but when it comes down to the Half Court they will run a Ball-Movement type of offense, not necessarily a Triangle offense. As for the 5 PG bit, damn, go to Canis Hoopus and talk that shit, you’ll get your heart ripped out and stepped on. The plan was to take Flynn and trade him to Sacramento along with James Johnson, who they thought would be available with the 18th pick for Tyreke Evans, obviously that didn’t work out, so he did a deal with Denver before they even picked Lawson where they would get Charlotte’s pick, same with Calathes, did a deal with Dallas before they even picked him. Now was it right to take Flynn over Curry/Lawson/Collison, IDK, probably not, but there were a few teams in the Top 10 that wanted Flynn, namely Sacramento, so it wasn’t just Kahn who was high on him. Are they going to be improved next year? For sure, but will they win more than 30 games? Probably not. Remember, it’s not just Kahn and Rambis this year, they also brought in Tony Ronzone, who is going to have a big impact over what kind of team they put together. Wes and Martell will both be played at the 2 and don’t expect Corey Brewer to get more than 15-20 minutes per night, they’d tried to move him to anyone that would give them a Top 20 pick, but nobody would give up that kind of value for him.

[NorthernLights666Participant]

That they’re going to have a “running” offense, but when it comes down to the Half Court they will run a Ball-Movement type of offense, not necessarily a Triangle offense. As for the 5 PG bit, damn, go to Canis Hoopus and talk that shit, you’ll get your heart ripped out and stepped on. The plan was to take Flynn and trade him to Sacramento along with James Johnson, who they thought would be available with the 18th pick for Tyreke Evans, obviously that didn’t work out, so he did a deal with Denver before they even picked Lawson where they would get Charlotte’s pick, same with Calathes, did a deal with Dallas before they even picked him. Now was it right to take Flynn over Curry/Lawson/Collison, IDK, probably not, but there were a few teams in the Top 10 that wanted Flynn, namely Sacramento, so it wasn’t just Kahn who was high on him. Are they going to be improved next year? For sure, but will they win more than 30 games? Probably not. Remember, it’s not just Kahn and Rambis this year, they also brought in Tony Ronzone, who is going to have a big impact over what kind of team they put together. Wes and Martell will both be played at the 2 and don’t expect Corey Brewer to get more than 15-20 minutes per night, they’d tried to move him to anyone that would give them a Top 20 pick, but nobody would give up that kind of value for him.

[HansotekParticipant]

Hey,

First time poster, long time reader. I registered to answer this question because I’m pretty familiar with the system they run in Minnesota and I see some misconceptions about the team popping up here.

1.) Minnesota does play an up-tempo, run-and-gun system. They were 3rd in the NBA in pace-of-play last year behind only Golden State and Indiana. They actually played at a faster pace than the Phoenix Suns. You can verify that statistic here, if you like: http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/paceFactor

2.) They don’t really use the triangle all that much. They will flow into it if the fast break fails, but their use of the triangle is more about spacing principles than anything else. Many of their struggles last year were really due to their LACK OF A.) shooters to take advantage of the spacing the triangle affords when the fast break fails, and B.) NBA level athleticism to make the fast break succeed. Both of these issues were addressed in the offseason with the aquisitions of Beasley, Johnson and Webster – all athletic shooters – and the departure of Al Jefferson, who, in spite of being their best player, is really built for a half-court offense.

3.) Their version of the triangle is a hybrid that relies more on penetration by the point guard than 1-on-1 skills by a wing player. However, Rambis intentionally removed the pick-and-roll from the offense for a good portion of the season last year to teach players to score without the ball (this was stated by both Rambis and Jonny Flynn during interviews in training camp). There was an obvious sacrifice in the win column, but in the end it did make their young players better at moving and scoring without the ball in their hands. Since Rubio is a master of finding back door alley oop and open 3 point shooters, this little experiment should make Minny a lot more fun to watch a year from now. It is also expected that Rubio will also get more carte blanche to orchestrate the offense with pick and rolls, triangle sets, etc. than Flynn did last year.

4.) I’m going to defend Kahn on the point guard thing (a little bit) because he drafted Lawson for Denver and Calathes for Dallas. The Lawson trade turned into Martell Webster eventually, which is a fairly even trade. The plan for Flynn has always been to turn him into a Ben Gordon/Jason Terry-like 6th man… I think most people would agree he is well-suited for that role,but I think they would also agree that the 6th pick is kind of high for a 6th man. Ramon Sessions was swapped out for Luke Ridnour this offseason because the team decided it needed a PG than can shoot the 3-ball. Sessions never really fit in the offense and he deserved a chance to play somewhere else. No reason to keep talent so they can fail, right?

In the end, David Kahn is no Sam Presti, but at least he’s no Kevin McHale. There’s a plan, it’s just not a vary obvious one.

I hope that helps you understand what is going on in Minnesota. Thanks for reading!

[HansotekParticipant]

Hey,

First time poster, long time reader. I registered to answer this question because I’m pretty familiar with the system they run in Minnesota and I see some misconceptions about the team popping up here.

1.) Minnesota does play an up-tempo, run-and-gun system. They were 3rd in the NBA in pace-of-play last year behind only Golden State and Indiana. They actually played at a faster pace than the Phoenix Suns. You can verify that statistic here, if you like: http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/sort/paceFactor

2.) They don’t really use the triangle all that much. They will flow into it if the fast break fails, but their use of the triangle is more about spacing principles than anything else. Many of their struggles last year were really due to their LACK OF A.) shooters to take advantage of the spacing the triangle affords when the fast break fails, and B.) NBA level athleticism to make the fast break succeed. Both of these issues were addressed in the offseason with the aquisitions of Beasley, Johnson and Webster – all athletic shooters – and the departure of Al Jefferson, who, in spite of being their best player, is really built for a half-court offense.

3.) Their version of the triangle is a hybrid that relies more on penetration by the point guard than 1-on-1 skills by a wing player. However, Rambis intentionally removed the pick-and-roll from the offense for a good portion of the season last year to teach players to score without the ball (this was stated by both Rambis and Jonny Flynn during interviews in training camp). There was an obvious sacrifice in the win column, but in the end it did make their young players better at moving and scoring without the ball in their hands. Since Rubio is a master of finding back door alley oop and open 3 point shooters, this little experiment should make Minny a lot more fun to watch a year from now. It is also expected that Rubio will also get more carte blanche to orchestrate the offense with pick and rolls, triangle sets, etc. than Flynn did last year.

4.) I’m going to defend Kahn on the point guard thing (a little bit) because he drafted Lawson for Denver and Calathes for Dallas. The Lawson trade turned into Martell Webster eventually, which is a fairly even trade. The plan for Flynn has always been to turn him into a Ben Gordon/Jason Terry-like 6th man… I think most people would agree he is well-suited for that role,but I think they would also agree that the 6th pick is kind of high for a 6th man. Ramon Sessions was swapped out for Luke Ridnour this offseason because the team decided it needed a PG than can shoot the 3-ball. Sessions never really fit in the offense and he deserved a chance to play somewhere else. No reason to keep talent so they can fail, right?

In the end, David Kahn is no Sam Presti, but at least he’s no Kevin McHale. There’s a plan, it’s just not a vary obvious one.

I hope that helps you understand what is going on in Minnesota. Thanks for reading!

[ChewyParticipant]

is that Kahn is collecting value players in hopes of making some trades down the line. They are not going to be successful this year so why not take a chance at developing young players, raising their stock in the hope that they can become a starter or trade bait.

[ChewyParticipant]

is that Kahn is collecting value players in hopes of making some trades down the line. They are not going to be successful this year so why not take a chance at developing young players, raising their stock in the hope that they can become a starter or trade bait.

[shipargosParticipant]

Many thanks for your comments,

Specially points 2 and 3.

If they go with the hybrid offense, including pick and rolls, i think Rubio will be a great fit, specially on outlet passes leading the break.
I dont think Rubio is a great penetrator, just an average one, if he wants to succed in this type of offense he must develop a much reliable jumpshot to keep defenses honest.

I am not sold on Kahns strategy, but i hope he plays in Minnesota, or at least to come to the NBA, like we (readers and posters) are mostly fans of the entire basketball sport and not one team in particular.)

[shipargosParticipant]

Many thanks for your comments,

Specially points 2 and 3.

If they go with the hybrid offense, including pick and rolls, i think Rubio will be a great fit, specially on outlet passes leading the break.
I dont think Rubio is a great penetrator, just an average one, if he wants to succed in this type of offense he must develop a much reliable jumpshot to keep defenses honest.

I am not sold on Kahns strategy, but i hope he plays in Minnesota, or at least to come to the NBA, like we (readers and posters) are mostly fans of the entire basketball sport and not one team in particular.)

[OhCanada-Participant]

Okay good post, but how does a Ben Gordon/Jason Terry type player fit into the Triangle Offense. You cant have both,, and Rubio and Flynn wont be sold on playing 24 MPG each. The plan is not going to work. Too many issues such as…

-Flynn’s SG skills may not even be as good as Ellington’s so if Flynn deserves PT at the 2 so does Ellington.
-Sthey signed Ridnour that means they have to give him Minutes or its a wasted signing
-Minnesota traded for Webster and Beasley and drafted Johnson, who are they expecting to have breakout into a star?
-Since Love is solid at the 4 position, Milicic is at the 5 and Beasley and Johnson have limited ball handling skills, (which makes them unable to play the 2) they are both 3’s.
– SO you have Beasley and Johnson as 3’s and maybe Beasley plays 10 Minutes of PF a game, If you want to develop your draft pick who is 23 years old he needs minutes.
-If Beasley takes up 25 Minutes of SF then Johnson is left with a maximum of 23 but he wont get those minutes if Webster is to breakout because you also Brewer to compansate for.
-So Webster will have to be content with being a role player.
-How is Pekovic and Tolliver going to breakout if they are on record stating Beasley, Love and Milicic are going to get big roles.
-You know Pekovic didnt come to the NBA to become a underachiving role player and Tolliver didnt come to Minnesota to be a role player when he couldve done that in Miami or other top teams.

KAHN has sold false promises to his organization.

In other words Minnesota loaded up on mediocre talent without creating any leadership order. The mediocre talent is also too deep to let itself develop. Look how the expected minutes pan out and tell me how you expect Flynn and Rubio to work, Johnson and Beasley to work, and this team in general to work because the plan is there, it just MAKES NO SENSE.

Minutes Per Game*
PG-Flynn(30),Ridnour(18)
SG-Webster(20),Brewer(20)Ellington(8)
SF-Beasley(25),Johnson(23)
PF-Love(35),Beasley(10),Pekovic(1.5),Tolliver(1.5)
C-Milicic(25),Pekovic(11.5),Tolliver(11.5)

Having all those players developing overseas, draft picks and potential in their organization creates good trading chips to land a Superstar, but when noone wants to play in Minnesota what good is all that unharnessed talent?

Unless Flynn is happy with playing 18MPG and Johnson is happy with never having an oppurtunity with realizing his potential Minnesota Timberwolves fans should expect alot more trades. Either Flynn is going or Rubio is going, either Beasley is going or Johnson is going, and frankly I think Beasley and Rubio are a much better tandem then Johnson and Flynn although Rubio and Beasley are much more “high maitnaince” and/or “premadonna” then Johnson and Flynn. Therefore I expect the T-Wolves to take the easy way out and keep Flynn and Johnson.

Although I must say this is much better then last year and way better then I expected. Here are things Minnesota need to do to have success with this Triangle Offence (and in general).
-Have Beasley, Love and Flynn breakout and establish as teamleaders with tremendous upside.
-Get Johnson to accept a role as a potential 6th man and glorified rotation player.
-Draft the “Top C” of the 2011 Draft.
-Trade Rubio for the “Top SG” of the 2011 Draft, (not including Barnes).
-Make sure the drafted players dont demand to be traded.

Then maybe Minnesota fans can look forward to the Playoffs.

[OhCanada-Participant]

Okay good post, but how does a Ben Gordon/Jason Terry type player fit into the Triangle Offense. You cant have both,, and Rubio and Flynn wont be sold on playing 24 MPG each. The plan is not going to work. Too many issues such as…

-Flynn’s SG skills may not even be as good as Ellington’s so if Flynn deserves PT at the 2 so does Ellington.
-Sthey signed Ridnour that means they have to give him Minutes or its a wasted signing
-Minnesota traded for Webster and Beasley and drafted Johnson, who are they expecting to have breakout into a star?
-Since Love is solid at the 4 position, Milicic is at the 5 and Beasley and Johnson have limited ball handling skills, (which makes them unable to play the 2) they are both 3’s.
– SO you have Beasley and Johnson as 3’s and maybe Beasley plays 10 Minutes of PF a game, If you want to develop your draft pick who is 23 years old he needs minutes.
-If Beasley takes up 25 Minutes of SF then Johnson is left with a maximum of 23 but he wont get those minutes if Webster is to breakout because you also Brewer to compansate for.
-So Webster will have to be content with being a role player.
-How is Pekovic and Tolliver going to breakout if they are on record stating Beasley, Love and Milicic are going to get big roles.
-You know Pekovic didnt come to the NBA to become a underachiving role player and Tolliver didnt come to Minnesota to be a role player when he couldve done that in Miami or other top teams.

KAHN has sold false promises to his organization.

In other words Minnesota loaded up on mediocre talent without creating any leadership order. The mediocre talent is also too deep to let itself develop. Look how the expected minutes pan out and tell me how you expect Flynn and Rubio to work, Johnson and Beasley to work, and this team in general to work because the plan is there, it just MAKES NO SENSE.

Minutes Per Game*
PG-Flynn(30),Ridnour(18)
SG-Webster(20),Brewer(20)Ellington(8)
SF-Beasley(25),Johnson(23)
PF-Love(35),Beasley(10),Pekovic(1.5),Tolliver(1.5)
C-Milicic(25),Pekovic(11.5),Tolliver(11.5)

Having all those players developing overseas, draft picks and potential in their organization creates good trading chips to land a Superstar, but when noone wants to play in Minnesota what good is all that unharnessed talent?

Unless Flynn is happy with playing 18MPG and Johnson is happy with never having an oppurtunity with realizing his potential Minnesota Timberwolves fans should expect alot more trades. Either Flynn is going or Rubio is going, either Beasley is going or Johnson is going, and frankly I think Beasley and Rubio are a much better tandem then Johnson and Flynn although Rubio and Beasley are much more “high maitnaince” and/or “premadonna” then Johnson and Flynn. Therefore I expect the T-Wolves to take the easy way out and keep Flynn and Johnson.

Although I must say this is much better then last year and way better then I expected. Here are things Minnesota need to do to have success with this Triangle Offence (and in general).
-Have Beasley, Love and Flynn breakout and establish as teamleaders with tremendous upside.
-Get Johnson to accept a role as a potential 6th man and glorified rotation player.
-Draft the “Top C” of the 2011 Draft.
-Trade Rubio for the “Top SG” of the 2011 Draft, (not including Barnes).
-Make sure the drafted players dont demand to be traded.

Then maybe Minnesota fans can look forward to the Playoffs.

[NorthernLights666Participant]

Kahn basically said after they traded for Webster that he was much more productive when given 30 minutes a game, expect him to be the starter at SG and get 30 minutes a game. Same with Johnson, they have a big investment in him by selecting him in the Top 5, expect him to get at least 25-30. Don’t expect Corey Brewer to get more than 15 minutes a game, they tried to trade him before the Draft to anybody that would be willing to give them a Top 20 pick and they found no takers, he will be a Restricted FA after next season, don’t expect the Wolves to re-sign him, expect them to trade him at next year’s deadline. Also, don’t expect Ellington or Hayward to get anything more than spot minutes, maybe 5 a game unless they have injuries. They don’t have the potential Johnson, Webster, or Beasley has. Beasley will be the starting SF.

[NorthernLights666Participant]

Kahn basically said after they traded for Webster that he was much more productive when given 30 minutes a game, expect him to be the starter at SG and get 30 minutes a game. Same with Johnson, they have a big investment in him by selecting him in the Top 5, expect him to get at least 25-30. Don’t expect Corey Brewer to get more than 15 minutes a game, they tried to trade him before the Draft to anybody that would be willing to give them a Top 20 pick and they found no takers, he will be a Restricted FA after next season, don’t expect the Wolves to re-sign him, expect them to trade him at next year’s deadline. Also, don’t expect Ellington or Hayward to get anything more than spot minutes, maybe 5 a game unless they have injuries. They don’t have the potential Johnson, Webster, or Beasley has. Beasley will be the starting SF.

[OhCanada-Participant]

So show me the minutes breakdown..Where will Johnson get those extra minutes, I actaully think 23 for his Rookie season is solid.

[OhCanada-Participant]

So show me the minutes breakdown..Where will Johnson get those extra minutes, I actaully think 23 for his Rookie season is solid.

[NorthernLights666Participant]

what does that say about Toronto? Who the fuck wants to live in a Socialist country with high taxes?

[NorthernLights666Participant]

what does that say about Toronto? Who the fuck wants to live in a Socialist country with high taxes?

[NorthernLights666Participant]

PG: Flynn – 30 minutes / Ridnour – 18 minutes
SG: Webster – 30 minutes / Johnson – 15 minutes / Brewer – 3 minutes
SF: Beasley – 20 minutes / Johnson – 10 minutes / Brewer – 13 minutes / Tolliver – 5 minutes
PF: Love – 30 minutes / Beasley – 10 minutes / Tolliver – 8 minutes
C: Darko – 25 minutes / Pekovic – 20 minutes / Tolliver – 3 minutes

[NorthernLights666Participant]

PG: Flynn – 30 minutes / Ridnour – 18 minutes
SG: Webster – 30 minutes / Johnson – 15 minutes / Brewer – 3 minutes
SF: Beasley – 20 minutes / Johnson – 10 minutes / Brewer – 13 minutes / Tolliver – 5 minutes
PF: Love – 30 minutes / Beasley – 10 minutes / Tolliver – 8 minutes
C: Darko – 25 minutes / Pekovic – 20 minutes / Tolliver – 3 minutes

[Author]

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