Torrence and Zoubek puzzle me
Ive seen a ton of people have Torrnece in the late 2nd round and personally i dont get it. he only avereged 16 ppg and 5 apg for bama and he only gained stock because he played a good tournament against all seniors. And most of the good seniors didnt show. I have him undrafted and i will be shocked if hes selected
On the other hand Zoubek should be included in everyones second round. He averaged 7.7 rpg in 18 min which is about 16 per 40. Whenever he got real minutes he rebounded the ball well. I think he could stick on a team as a 4th big.
Those are just my thoughts
Mikhail Torrence is someone who I've seen play a bunch. He played against Kansas State in the regular season, and I was impressed with his D and his raw but obviously developing PG skills. He's very similar to Shannon Brown, so in the even that the Lakers can't resign Brown, Torrence could be groomed as a suitable replacement. Torrence would look good in the triangle offense, so if he were around at their pick he would be a PERFECT fit. Oh, and you said "only 16 ppg and 5 apg"...those are NBA draft-pick esque numbers if you have the physical gifts Torrence does, and he played in the high-major SEC.
Zoubek is not an NBA player to me. He's stiffer than a mummy in an Egyptian tomb. All that being tall and not being good at any actual thing isn't going to work in the NBA if your as horrible and as slow as Zoubek is. He will be the slowest player in the NBA the moment he puts on an NBA uniform.
I must admit i have only seen torrence play once, against my Friars, and he had a very quiet 26 points. He played great D on Sharaud Curry who is a good college scorer, but isnt exactly NBA talent plus Torrence had the 6-5 to 5-9 height advantage
Woah... Slowest player?? What about Jerome James and Eddy Curry???
They're still in the NBA??
Good call... lol... My bad.. That statement was made under the assumption that those 2 were excluded.. I knew that but I had to say something..
LOL oh ok
lol @ zoubek being the slowest player in the nba.
Not only is Zoubek slow as hell but other than Boozer...how many Duke bigs actually overachieved or do that well in the NBA? Duke bigs are soft and overrated. When ur as bad as Zoubek he is probably gunna be that much worse in the NBA. Duke bigs do not impress me at all
That's an inane and clearly biased comment. Duke bigs have done no worst in the league than most other colleges and there is no basis on them being weak/soft. Sure some of them are (ala Josh McRoberts) but thats no different than any other school.
actually Duke is known to have bigs that are great college players but suck in the League. Elton Brand and Boozer kind of went against that grain but for the most part it is true. Dude does well with small forwards though
I agree by the way. They are GREAT college players. and i hope u know i wasnt saying that they werent. Just not good NBA players.
Not true Spencer. Does Georgetown ring a bell??? Ewing, Mourning, Mutombo, Jeff Green, ect. there are plenty of school who provide more successful bigmen than softer underacheivers. Duke players usually underacheieve and its because coach K doesnt recruit freakish athletes with amazing talent. He recruits good men with good grades and are coachable. In acception of Grant Hill (who was pleagued by injury) Boozer, and Brand... All Duke players dont do as well as lets say NC, KU, or some other bigtime programs. I love duke...but statistics show that they dont do as well. Prove me wrong if its a biases statement.
Yeah wow name the school who is best at producing big men ever and compare them to Duke. Good argument.
What Duke bigs have underacheived in the NBA? Shelden Williams? He's not weak or soft. I could've told he was drafted too high, he just has limited offensive skills but he isn't weak.
You point on UNC as doing a better job..
Duke big men in the NBA: Carlos Boozer, Elton Brand, Shelden Williams, Josh McRoberts, Shavlik Randolph (Randolph barely played when he was at Duke)--I could include G Hill as well
UNC big men in the NBA: Sean May, Brendan Haywood, Rasheed Wallace, Antwan Jamison, Marvin Williams, Tyler Hansbrough
You also point out Kansas as a better school at producing big men:
Drew Gooden, Brandon Rush, Nick Collison, Raef Lafrentz, Darrell Arthur
How about some other big name schools???
Kentucky- Chuck Hayes, Nazr Mohammed
Syracuse- Etan Thomas, Hakim Warrick, Donte Greene
Duke has done no better or no worse than the majority of schools producing big men. They have 2 former all-star big men in the league currently. How many other schools can say that? This is coming from a program that hasn't had a legit NBA big man prospect since Shelden left 6 years ago.
You forgot Wayne Simien, Darnell Jackson, Julian Wright and Sasha Kaun who all went to Kansas and were drafted. Not huge contributors in the NBA, but as far as a college producing big men that is 4 more in the past 5 or 6 years. And when you figure Cole Aldrich will be a 1st round pick this year and the Morris twins, Thomas Robinson and Jeff Withy, barring injury or off court troubles will most likely play in the NBA bode well for Kansas, I attribute a lot of this recent success with bigs to Danny Manning's work as an assistant coach working with KU post players, the improvement Aldrich and the Morris Twins made from their freshman to sophomore seasons is very impressive.
Once again...that was not the argument. I was not saying that there were more big men from other schools in the league. i simply said the bigmen who are drafted out of Duke underachieve compared to others. Duke bigs are usually drafted high and dont do anything in the pros. Let me help u out. ill even include some guards.
Laetnerr- one of the greatest college bball players ever...Underacheived. he was a journyman.
Shelden Williams- His wife is better than he is.
Danny Ferry- 2nd overall pick...averaged 7 points and 2 reb throuhg his career. a journeyman
Josh McRoberts- Awful
Cherokee Parks- 12 overall pick. dont think he averaged more than 4 points and 3 reb
Jim Spanarkel- 16th pick. Lasted 4 years. did nothing.
Battier- as the 4th overall pick he underachieved. great role player but so overhyped
Dunleavy- 3rd overall pick. not a bad player but for the 3rd overall pick in that draft?? underachieved
Jay Williams- I feel bad cuz he had the injury but 2nd overall and he did nothing.
Bob Hurley- 7th overall averaged 3 pts and 3 assists
Trajon Langdon- 11th pick and lasted 3 years. i think he averaged 4 pts
Roshown McLeod- top 20 pick. lasted 3 years
William Avery- 14th overall pick..averaged 2 points and one assist
Alaa Abdelnaby- top 20 pick and averaged 5 and 3
Mark Alarie- 18th overall pick. produced nothing
Chris Carawell- lasted a year
JJ Reddick- one of the best college players in a long time and is still scrapping for minutes
Duke players do not do well in the league. if you name is not grant hill, cory magette, boozer, Deng or Johnny Dawkins then your an underachiever out of Duke university. those are all lottery picks producing very little. how do u argue that??
We were talking about Duke big men being SOFT and overrated. I think duke bigs being soft has been put to rest, as they clearly are not. And since we're jumping from only big men to Duke players in general lets compare them with the first team you said does better at producing NBA players, UNC.
I see plenty of busts and good players on BOTH sides.
Marvin Williams? Bust
Sean May? Bust
Rashad McCants? Bust
Brandan Wright? Bust
Raymond Felton? Bust
Josh McRoberts was picked in the 2nd round, so the fact that he is still in the league doesn't make him a bust exactly (by the way I hate him it pains me to defend him)
And I laugh at you saying JJ Redick is "scrapping" for minutes. He played behind VC and averaged 22 MPG. I didn't realize 22 minutes per game is scrapping for minutes. Also, lets be honest Jay Williams never underacheived so having his name on there is ridiculous. He would've been a great PG if not for the injury.
Talking only current players in the NBA I'd say there is very little difference between players in the NBA from Duke and UNC.
I can bring out guys from UNC past as well who have underahceived: JR Reid, Joe Wolf, Eric Montross... Should I keep going?
annnnnd how many more are WAY more successful than duke players??? did u really forget Michael Jordan, Perkins, Worthy, David Thompson, Bob McCadoo, Kenny Smith, Scott Williams, Jamison, Stack and Rasheed? Compared to about ....5 really good duke players? c'mon
Ohh yes Perkins and his 11 PPG. Wasn't he a top-5 pick?? Sounds more like a bust to me. Especially when you label Laettner a bust who was the #3 pick and averaged 13/7 for his career.
Stackhouse had a couple very good years but other than that was an avg-above avg nba player. Along with Rasheed you can't say they've way better than Duke players.
And wait. Hold on. Are you serious? Scott Williams? I had to look at that twice then double check the numbers. The guy who averaged 5 PPG for his career?
Give me a break man.. give up the argument, your spitting out nonsense now.
oh Pekrins wasnt bacing up Kareem?? and Scott Williams didnt overachieve?? ur an idiot
"annnnnd how many more are WAY more successful than duke players??? did u really forget Michael Jordan, Perkins, Worthy, David Thompson, Bob McCadoo, Kenny Smith, Scott Williams, Jamison, Stack and Rasheed? Compared to about ....5 really good duke players?"
You said they were way more sucessful than duke players.. You pointed out those 2 players in particular. One averaged 5 PPG.
You're right. I clearly am the idiot. A guy who averaegd 5 PPG in his NBA career was way more succesful than most Duke players.
I think it's time to throw in the towel once you resort to naming Scott Williams.
if you look at some second rounders from NC, Reyshawn terry and david noel are who immediatley come to mind, they did absolutely nothing in the NBA. Uconn hasnt been so successful with players either. Hilton Armstrong, Emeka okafor (as 2 pick), Josh Boone, Voshkul have not been very good. My point every school produces its fair share of busts and Duke and UNC are being targeted because they produce more NBA players than most schools.
ur not understanding..Noone thought Scott Williams should be in the league yet he started at times and played a big role on a few championchip teams. thats what we call overachieving. someones a duke fan
You're flip flopping your argument I don't even know what you are arguing anymore. In that post you start talking about how I'm forgetting all the players that are wayyy better than duke players.. Then in your list you name Scott Williams.
Your surprised an undrafted guy scored 5 PPG? I don't get it. Woohoo he overacheived from not getting drafted to 5 PPG. Randy Denton an old Duke player from the 70's was drafted in the 4th or 5th round and scored over 10 points a game in his day.
So please explain to me what you are arguing and what Scott Williams has to do with it.
i dont know what you dont get...Duke doesnt provide hardly any superstars...They are all overhyped. I listed liek 20 fkn guys who were drafted top 20 who did nothing....NC has like 20 superstars or more. Yeah every school has busts. but none like Duke. In acception of Grant Hill...Duke guys under achieve. i dont know what you dont get. As for Scott Williams...i was just listing a guy who bigtime overachieved for being undrafted. he played like 16 years and won rings and played a very important role doing that...how many duke guys do u see doing that? none. Im dont with this argument. stats dont lie. look at the top 15 best duke players and top 7 or 8 even 10 guys from any other big school especially NC and you will see a HUGE difference in talent or guys who werent expected to do well and become good players...duke doesnt have that. I like Duke...and they dont provide good pros. soo.....look at the stats and try and understand my argument because alot of other people do. good god. specifically look at former top 20 picks. duke by far has way more busts than any other school
"i was just listing a guy who bigtime overachieved for being undrafted. he played like 16 years and won rings and played a very important role doing that...how many duke guys do u see doing that? none."
I gave you a guy...
Randy Denton an old Duke player from the 70's was drafted in the 4th or 5th round and scored over 10 points a game in his day.
But anyways, you have to look at it from a player to player basis not generalize the team as a whole. LIke I said there have been many Duke players who have not come close to succeeding in the NBA as predicted, but as of late there have been just as many if not more UNC players who are in the same boat. I do not think Duke players are any more overrated (at least now-a-days) than most teams. We can sit here and argue about the past and who didn't succeed 20 years ago and who did, but it seems to me now for every Shelden Williams there is a Sean May. Whether or not NBA coaches used to overrate Duke players is definitely debatable. Right now, though, I feel as if they do not at all.
And I know a lot of people say JJ was overrated but he was the #11 pick in the draft. Just for argument's sake I'm going to list the latest previous #11 picks in the draft:
00: Jerome Moiso
01: Kendrick Brown
02: Jared Jeffries
04: Andris Biedrins
05: Fran Vazquez
07: Acie Law
08: Jerryd Bayless
09: Terrence Williams
He's one of the best #11 overall picks in the last 10 years.
Matthews and Brad Miller were both undrafted along with these overacheivers
a number of these guys did a lot better than Scott Williams so ur point of Scott Williams was an great undrafted player doesnt look so good compared to a lot of these guys who also were part of championship caliber/contending teams. Occasionally decent NBA players slip through the draft, so what. Where you were drafted just means how teams think your potential is. I hope this makes sense.
Unfortunatly the site wont let me post the link i just googled undrafted NBA players and a list came up
but anyway as 4 the TOPIC i agree with whoever that was at the top zoubek isnt a NBA player. i dont really see him in the league. hell even the d league would eb an accomplishment. I think zous best bet is overseas. he can make good money and hes a smart guy he can probably find a good job over there