top 5 clutch players
^Based on what? Couldn't have been this...
Well first of all, I'm thinking about more than stats, I've actually watched him play.
Also, that guy said "im sorry but lebrons name shouldnt belong in a sentence with the word clutch... lol"
Stats don't mean everything, but they are relevant. Lebron performs when the game is on the line. Point blank. I used the game winning shot stats the other day, but which Indianabasketball didn't like, but once again they showed Lebron tops in the league. When a guy is first in every meaningful clutch statistic, it means something. Other than Kobe, there is no other player I would rather have the ball at the end of a close game.
Here's the gamewinners again...
I think Carmelo should be ahead of Wade, but only because he has a better shooting percentage than him. In terms of athletic skill, they are very close but I think Wade has the edge there. (But that may just be because I am more bias towards D-wade than I am to Melo.
I also think both Ray Allen and Deron Williams deserve an honorable mention. I actually think they should both be higher than Dirk, but again I'm being a little bias there especially towards D-will.
You put really undervalue Lebron. For the first 7 years of his career he took virtually every important shot for Cleveland and they have won more games then any other team in the East during that time. Lebron has hit huge shots and has taken over complete playoff series more then a few times. And Lebron has his ball in the hands at the end of the game for the Heat more then Wade so how would he even be considered higher then him because him ans Shaq won a championship but hasn't even sniffed that level since then.
1. Kobe
2. Pierce
3. Lebron
4. Melo
5. Brandon Roy
Honorable Mention:
Amare
Durant
Nash
The previous 2 82games.com articles have been just been sortable clutch stats and stats on last second shots...
A few years ago they did an entire analysis of clutch stats based on everything that goes on at the end of a close game. They evaluate, assists, steals, blocks, ability to draw fouls, FT%, team performance on offense and defense, and apply appropriate weights to the measures. An incredible 3-part study that gives not only the stats, but in depth dicusssion to explain their rationale for deicsions they made.
granted, its from 2004-2005, but a good deal of it is still very relevant.
there is a term in behavioral economics for people who think kobe is the most clutch player in the league, its called hindsight bias, kobe fans only remember the games where he hits the big shots (he takes a lot of them , so he eventually makes alot) and their memory puts overwhelming emphasis on those "good" moments because they make kobe fans happy, whereas, the bad moments are scoffed at, and quickly forgotten
studies have been done and its amazing how people delude themselves into thinking like this
here is the article, highly suggest reading it, all the way at the bottom of the page is a link to part II and same there to part III and the final list
1. Kobe
2. Melo
3. Lebron
4. Rondo (extremely underrate in clutch. Always brings his A+ game when its needed on O and D.)
5. Pierce
( I wanted to keep Lebron off of my list as i truely feel his game late in quarters is just lebron being lebron. Nothing I see about his game screams im the &$#%#&@! out here. No true alpha to him which i want outta my guy with the ball in his hands. I think he could do whatever he wanted individually at any ticould play half of each game and still avg 20 5 5 on the season. He's just that good. But the simple fact remains that when the truely important times come around he's nowhere to be spotted. Did nothing but hide in the corner against bos. Regardless, 95% of the time he's gonna get the job done for me. so he's gonna stay around 3-5.)
MJ
How bout that?
Its such a hard argument to make. Based on volume and career clutch plays made, i would only assume it goes
1. Kobe
2. Lebron
3. Ray Allen
4. Dirk
5. Paul Pierce
And no, Billups isnt clutch anymore. Cite the 09 WCF, when he was a year and half better than he is now.
I just don't care too much for 82games.com's definition of a "game winning" shot.
24 seconds or less in a game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points.
TWENTY-FOUR seconds? That's a LONG time in a close ball game. A team could get two or three more possessions with that much time on the clock. Attempting a shot with 24 seconds on the clock compared to 5 seconds on the clock is a BIG difference pressure wise. If there's only 5 seconds left on the clock, you won't get another possession.
Another problem is it doesn't take into account whether the player won or lost the game. IF Kobe made a "game winning" shot with 20 seconds left, but the other team still won the game... 82games.com would still consider that a "game winning" shot for Kobe.
I'd also like to see shots in the final 24 seconds broken down... For example, how many shots did LeBron make in the final 10 seconds? How many did he make in the final 5 seconds and was his team tied or down a point? Attempting a shot while the score is tied compared to being down a point is also a big difference pressure wise because if you're down points and you miss, there's no overtime. This just isn't broken down enough for me...
And why should a shot that only ties the game with 23 seconds still left on the clock be considered a "game winning" shot?
I just don't like the way 82games.com defines a game winning shot. Here's an example of how they do it:
LeBron James - Went 2/2 in the final 24 seconds (no shots attempted under 10 seconds). Team lost game.
Kobe Bryant - Went 2/4 in the final 24 seconds, but made one shot with 8 seconds and then another at the buzzer (team down one point) to win the game. Team won game.
According to 82games.com, based on the scenario above, LeBron would be more clutch than Kobe. I see a problem with that...
@Indianabasketball, I'm not trying to argue with you that Lebron is more clutch than Kobe. "But 24 seconds or less in a game, team with the ball is either tied or down by 1 to 2 points" is still a very clutch situation and the game is obviously on the line. I'm not saying stats are everything, but it is nearly impossible to objectively look at all those clutch stats, including "the last 5 min, close game" ones and conclude that Lebron doesn't perform well when the game is on the line.
People have been making out like Lebron has no business being in the conversation, when in fact he is, at the very least, among the top 5 clutchest players in the league. Stats can be slightly deceiving for sure, like you pointed out, but so can hating Lebron so much that you think he "is robin," "isn't clutch," "has no killer instinct," etc. They aren't perfect, but they are the most objective way to look at this.
LeBron is no top 5 clutch player, sure he is great, 4th quarter he will rise to the occasion, but what about the final minute between making late free throws and that final shot to stay alive? He often does disappear, and that shot against the magic was just one shot. Ben Gordon, Ray Allen, Ginobli, D-Will, and CP3 deserve honorable mention. Tayshaun Prince, Trevor Ariza, and Josh Smith deserve defensive cluth mention. IMO
You forgot what he did against the Pistons
24 seconds or less isn't detailed enough for me. LeBron could make a ton of shots with 24 seconds to go, but not show up when his team is down to one last possession. 82games.com doesn't break down the situations. They consider just about anything a "game winning" shot, which is just a little lame in my opinion.
I don't care how many shots Kobe takes/misses in the final 24 seconds, as long as he hits the one to win the game (meaning barely or no seconds on the clock). And I've seen Kobe do that plenty of times. I've seen Pierce do it. I've seen Ray Allen do it. I've seen Dirk do it. Derrick Rose has started to do it. Even Rudy Gay has started to do it. I haven't seen LeBron do it that much. Like three times in his entire career. He did it vs Washington, Golden State and Orlando. It's almost like LeBron doesn't want to take that final shot. I've seen him pass the ball. I've seen him take jumpers instead of driving (he's the best driver in NBA history) because he didn't want want to get put on the line.
LeBron is a clutch player, but when the pressure is at it's PEAK, I just don't think he's been as good as a few players in the NBA. I guess I just wouldn't have him attempting my game winning shot if I KNEW my team only had one possession left.
I'm not necessarily arguing with you, as I said, I was more responding to comments like " Any mention of lebron in a clutch mention is completley off the i wouldnt even want that choke artist on the court in the cluth cause he dont want the ball." Lebron may not be the clutchest in the league, but he has proven that you can go to him in crunch time and he will deliver. He belongs in the conversation is all I'm saying.
Over a season Kobe could be 10/30 on 82games.com's definition of "game winning" shots (hit 10 WALK-OFF game winners though) and LeBron could be 20/30 (hit no walk-off game winners and his team lost 5 of the games)... 82games.com would consider LeBron more clutch than Kobe.
That's flawed thinking and it's misleading.
And LeBron is a clutch player... I just don't think he's great when the pressure is at it's highest... When the pressure is so high it's either going to make a diamond or burst a pipe.
I don't even think Kobe is THAT great (though he's the best in the league and has been for some time) in those situations... He's definitely not Michael Jordan.
I know you're not saying LeBron is more clutch than Kobe. I'm just using those two players as examples.
My point of consistently bringing this up is because you always bring up 82game.com, when there are significant holes in the way they determine who's clutch, who's not and what a "game winning" shot is.
With one possession left on the clock and making a shot when the pressure is at it's peak, I don't think LeBron is top five in the NBA. Is he even top ten?
The only reason I bring it up is that is the only objective way to look at this. No it is not perfect, yes there are flaws in it. But do you not think that it's significant that Lebron leads in all the clutch statistics that they can come up with. Being clutch is more than taking the last shot, it is coming up big when the game is on the line and Lebron has consistently done that. I am acknowledging that there are wholes in the statistics, but that doesn't mean we should ignore them.
Why does being clutch only have to be making buzzer beaters? What about getting his team back from behind in the 4th quarter? Lebron has led the league in 4th quarter scoring and he's proven himself in plenty of big moments. His first playoff series he was excellent, everyone saw what he did against the Pistons. In game 7 against the eventual championship Celtics he scored 40+ trying to do everything for his team to win. The Magic series he had a game winner was able to knock down clutch free throws and had numbers that have not been seen in a long time. He sucked against the Celtics last year, but so did Dwight Howard and even Kobe. His first game going against the Cavs where a lot of people expected him to fold under the pressure he stepped up and had the best game of his Heat career at the time.
Lebron has proven himself in the regular season and most importantly the playoffs where a lot of these other so called clutch players fall short I wouldn't put him above Kobe, but he's pretty damn good.
I'm not trying to be a d*ck, but no... I don't like the way they've determined what a "game winning" shot is and who's clutch or not. I don't think it's detailed nor broken down enough. There are too many holes in the way they've come up with it.
It doesn't tell us who performs the best when the pressure is at it's peak. As far as we know, the player that leads in "game winning" shots could be the player who shrinks the most when it's down to one final possession. Yes, being clutch is more than just making the game winning shot, but if a player shrinks at the bursting point... How is he a killer? How is he clutch?
When I think of clutch, I think of Derek Fisher. I think of Michael Jordan. I think of Robert Horry. I think of guys who have ice in their veins and take that shot without thinking... And knock it down. I think of Kobe Bryant, though not at the level a lot of people do. I just don't think of LeBron James as having ice in his veins.
But we'll have to respectfully disagree on this one.
he has hit some great game winning shots, but he shoots 30% in the final 3 minutes of games that are within 5 points.
would love to see what % of his turn overs happen at the end of games also.
He has shot his team out of as many games as he has helped to win!
People who dont think Lebron James isnt among the top 5 clutch players in the NBA are waaayyy to emotional (but judging the most clutch players might be opinion) IMO clutch is not only making and taking the last shot but, how you play down the stretch in BIG GAMES... If Lebron was still in stayed in Cleveland people would view him diffrent lense...
This Lebron HATE is crazy http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.phpv=wshh9XaHeNTWC9106O9z.....
IMO Top 5 Clutch
Kobe, Wade, Pierce, Lebron, Melo
on 1st and 10 they had 5. dirk 4. melo 3. wade 2. pierce 1.kobe
I think thats exactly rite, what do u guys think?