Thank you Barkley
nowhere in my above post did i say i hated barkley, therefore i don't hate you either. I said it got to me. And yes, kobe at 2 definitely gets to me and I do not agree.
1. Mj
2. Kareem
3. Russel
4. Magic
5. Bird.
Kobe is top 10, but I have a hard time agreeing that he's better than the 5 listed above.
if people dont think kobe is top 5, fine. That argument will continue forever and its all just opinion. BUt reading that link, barkley wasnt disrespecting anyone. Kenny Smith was the one suggesting barkley must be drunk to consider kobe top 5, if anything smith was th eone being disrespectful. Theres nothing about those other guys that is so hands down better then kobe that you have to be crazy to put kobe top 5.
if people dont think kobe is top 5, fine. That argument will continue forever and its all just opinion. BUt reading that link, barkley wasnt disrespecting anyone. Kenny Smith was the one suggesting barkley must be drunk to consider kobe top 5, if anything smith was th eone being disrespectful. Theres nothing about those other guys that is so hands down better then kobe that you have to be crazy to put kobe top 5.
And a lot of people like to bring how kobe had shaq and now has pau. But look at those other guys and tell me how many great players they played with. Russell had havlicheck, cousy and im sure a few other hall of famers. Bird had parrish, mchale, dennis johnson, cedric mawell. Magic had kareem, nixon, worthy, scott, wilkes. Jordan had pippen and rodman for 3 of them.
also lets wait until his career is over. There is a chance he ends with 7 or 8 titles and since so many people use titles to justify where players rank that will have a huge impact on whether or not kobe is regarded as top 5 or even top 2 when its all said and done.
lakers were first place in the west and looking like legit title contenders before pau showed up, something that is so often forgot about that 2008 season. ANd it wasnt just like kobe didnt have a pau or shaq. He had frickin kwame, smuch parker and luke walton starting to go with odom. I mean, he should be praised for getting those teams to the playoffs not ridiculed for not winning titles.
You really expect Kobe to win a ring when ppl like Kwame Brown were getting significant playing time on that team? There has never been a player in the history of the NBA that has won a championship without a good supporting cast. My top 5
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bill Russell
True, I will wait until his season is over but you said that Kenny Smith was being disrespectful for not believing Kobe was a top 5 guy all time and didn't derseve it.
Sometimes ( not only you LL) Laker fans forget that Kobe had 3 seasons in a row under or at least 45 wins in a season. We can argue there talent ( Kobe, Caron Butler, Lamar Odom as the main 3 with a young Farmar and Bynum) and by being giving 2 things: The MVP in 08 ( Chris Paul should have won it) and Pau Gasol, Kobe's career has been able to be giving this late surge.
To be honest: I didn't even hear Kobe in the top 15 until 2008-2009.
People are too stuck in tradition. They're afraid to put a current NBA player above certain others because they're legends and they don't want to see them fall. After it's all said and done, more and more people will probably put him in the top 5, where they know he should be
the year they had caron butler, both kobe and odom were out with significant injuries and both missed like a month or else they probably would have snuck in the playoffs. Bynum never did anything significant until 2008 when he really emerged as a force and trevor really had his breakout year as well and the lakers were on their way to 55+ wins with pau still in memphis. Then in mid january, both bynum and ariza went down with season ending injuries and they went after pau to save the season.
ANd i thought kobe deserved his 2008 mvp. I also think he deserved the 2006 mvp over nash. ANd what if karl malone had stayed healthy for the 2004 finals, lakers might have had another title then. And what if kobe didnt have to go through a complete rebuilding mode right while he was in th eprime of his career, somehting none of those other greats had to go through. ANd if they did get bynum and ariza for the 2008 finals back they might have won that one too. The what if game works both ways.
Did they get Gasol before Bynum got hurt? I don't remember . Even before the injury, Ariza wasn't doing much as a Laker before the playoffs. Also, I agree with 06 MVP, disagree with 08 simply because CP3 took that team to new levels and a LA team minus Kobe probably wins 45-50 that year. New Orlens minus CP3 wins probably 25 games.
Still, pre 2008: Was Kobe even considered as a top 15 player all time? I don't think so.
i dont remember where kobe was being ranked, you dont see to many guys still in their 20's having their place on all time lists being discussed too much. ANd pau came after the bynum and ariza injuries both of whom were having very solid years. The cp3 vote was very close, many feel like it was so close it came down to which team finished with the better record. I will say there is no doubt in my mind kobe has been the best player in the league more then just one season. Hes not even in his prime now and people are still discussing him as the best player in the game.
Let me start of first saying im one of the biggest kobe fans in the world and a die hard Laker but top 5 right now is wayy too soon to call. He has some more work to do before we can say that. If he wins this year I think its then up for discussion. Let's not forget what happened against Boston the 1st time, when he quit vs Phoenix in game 7 (though he had a great 1st half), Losing to Phoenix up 3-1 (MJ wouldve never let that happen) and other little weird Kobe things he's done. Kobe is probably the only top 10 player to have NO SPECIAL FINALS MOMENTS. MJ has the walk-off jumper vs Utah, Magic has his rookie yr starting for Kareem at center and had a triple double...Can anyone name Kobe's? The closest one I can think of is the Pacers game Shaq fouled out...Here's my 5
1. MJ
2. Magic
3. Kareem
4. Hakeem/Wilt
5. Bird
I think he jumps bird with a ring this year and is in the convo with the other 4 in who's the 2nd greatest, a 7th ring enters him into MJ's chamber.
you honestly think this is the best kobe you've seen? How many guys are in their prime in their 15th season? He has tons of mileage on those legs. Hes still playing great, but i would take the kobe of the last 8 years over this kobe by a slight edge.
I agree Kobe is definitely not in his prime physically. He is mentally for sure, he understand the game on another level as you would expect in his 15th yr...Physically I think he was in his prime was '02-'06...hes dominating the game with his mind now, legs are pretty much gone...Like MJ, he so skilled and mentally ahead of everyone he can still dominate w/ his legs diminishing
agent uno, who knows. That was my point, if someone wants to play the what if game to try and discredit kobes rings i can turn right around to play the what if game to give him more rings. They both make about as much sense dont you think? Besides, troy hudson was playing out of his mind in those conference finals averaging 20 a game and was probably their second most valuable player after KG that series. If cassel was on the court, that just means hudson is on the bench and thats not a bad trade off if your the lakers.
I see at this: Rise, Prime/Peak, Decline
Kobe's at his peak to me. He's not gonna get better stat wise to the point his numbers are gonna look similar within the same 2-4 seasons. Also, I'm still looking at the " High School" factor as well.
Maybe we have different meanings of Prime? Prime is his best numbers where you can see a huge increase in stats. I say 02-07 were his prime, 08 to now are his peak years.
prime just means when he was at his best to me. He used to be able to score 50 pretty muich any night darn near if wanted to. Kobe is still able to play smart and take over games with his skills and iq, but hes not quite the unstoppable force he once was. You can see the difference on both ends the court. He was able to play 40 minutes while gaurding the other teams best player the whole time. He needs more help on that end now. ANd he used to just hang in the air and finish spectacular plays all the time. NOw you see him throwing up floaters and yelling at the officials for contact on plays where he used to just dunk it.
kobe is past his prime. i dont know if its because magic and bird have always been considered great in my lifetime but i cant put them behind kobe. mj obviously is number 1. so to me the kobe discussion starts at 4. bill russell has 11 rings(correct me if im wrong), thats a strong chip but it was very early in basketball history. kareem played like 20 years with magic, worthy, and the big o, he was a monster tho. shaq has 2 of todays best players get rings. hakeem won 2 but they were the 2 jordan played baseball but stockton, malone, barkley, shaq, penny, pippen, and payton didnt get rings those years. kobe has 5 rings with a solid cast every one of them(and like said everyone with championships has had a supporting cast). tim duncan is the quietest winner, is that why he is left out? he has been one of the most dominant players in the league for just as long as kobe. wilt chamberlin has the best stats in the history of the league but bill russell beat him out for rings multiple years.
this just proves that it is all opinion, with the exception of mj, careers have been similar(in terms of championships, stats, supporting cast, and eras played in). some guys have stats or championships on their side but have the time they played against them. some are great but still playing. it is all opinion. kobe isnt in my top 5, yet. he is top 10 tho and inching his way up the list with every championship.
You cannot use Jordan for a example as a 15th season prime player because
A) Jordan only played 15 seasons
B) Jordan retired for a year and a half and then another 2 and a half years
C) Jordan broke his foot and allowed him to rest in his 2nd season
Athletically, Kobe is not at his prime. When someone uses the word prime, they mean "best you've ever been," Kobe is still an excellent athlete, but he is not the jumping jack he was at the start of his career straight out of high school. However from a basketball stanpoint, he has been in his prime for the last five seasons, which have been the best of his career, with a first team all-NBA appearance in each of these seasons, two championships and one mvp award. He is a more complete player now than ever, and has diversified his entire skill set, adding post moves and a more consistent midrange game, along with a much better shot selection. Jordan just happened to hit his prime earlier than Kobe did in terms of seasons playing in the league.
kobe doesnt comnpare to bird and magic yet he needs one more ring. The competition today is diluted due to the expansion. The teams back in Magic and Birds' days were much tougher. that being said there teams were also better. The league is catching up in talent but hasn't gotten there yet.
Top 5
1. MJ
2. Russel <rings are undeniable even was a player coach
3. Magic
4. Bird
5. Kareem
then kobe is 6,7 or 8
Top 5 well never saw Russell, Wilt play but I'd say Magic wasn't good enough on defense to be #2.
Here's my top 5 just off the top of my head Also Kobe is the only player on this list who went from high school straight to the pros. Barkley always changes his top 5 but at least he put Kareem back in his top 5 afterwards. I'd put Kobe after Wilt, Hakeem, Duncan and Shaq rite now.
1) MJ
2) Kareem
3) Russell
4) Magic
5) Bird
Not sure what the Twolves Conf. Finals in 04 has to do with it esp. since the Lakers lost in the Finals to Detroit.
Couple of things keep Kobe from being top 5, he definately never had a great Finals series or moment even against the Magic he shot around 43% thats not great. He struggled against the Pistons and Celtics twice. Also Kobe played with arguably a top 10 player in Shaq. I know Magic played with Kareem as well but Shaq was at his peak with the Lakers and most consider Magic to be the best PG of all time. Not sure what you meant about Kobe being past his prime and being mentinoed as the best player in the game he's only 32. MJ after his 1st retirement was 33 to 35 during that 3 peat and definately was the best player in the game at 35.
nyk2010, while you dont mentio0n me, all your comments are obviously at me so heres my responses.
what do the 2004 confernce finals have to do with anything, nothing at all. People tried to rip kobe for his rings and i brought up how he might have 6 right now had malone stayed healthy which i honestly think he would. A lot of what ifs to counter all those what ifs.
Never had a great finals series? The 2002 finals? The 2009 finals? Yeah, you must have way too high of expectations if those were not great performances. And the only thing holding the 2010 finals back is game 7.
He palyed with shaq, so what. read the rest the posts. Kareem is a top 5 player all time ranked by most people ahead of shaq. Both worthy and kareem were finals mvps while playing with magic. So what if magic is the greatest pg of all time, would he be the greatest sg of all time? Cuase MJ is the only sg ahead of kobe and MJ would be ahead of magic too.
ANd you really show ignorance by bringing up kobes age vs MJ's age. You do realize at the same ag(32) Jordan had played 3 years collge instead of playing 82 games + playoffs straight out of highschool. Also at 32, kobe has been 7 nba finals, MJ only 3. Those are some long summers. Add in that jordan then took 2 full years off before coming back while kobe is playing games, playoffs, and way more summer international games then MJ. Of course KObe is gonna wear out at a younger age then MJ.
I don't know... I do agree with those saying Kobe hasn't really had that defining finals moment. I mean, he's obviously made great plays, but I don't think he's had that defining moment.
- He didn't play well vs the Pistons in 2004. I don't feel like doing research, but I'm not for sure if Kobe shot 40% in this series. I just know Prince made his life difficult.
- He didn't play well vs the Celtics in 2008, and the Lakers got destroyed in game six. Pierce outplayed Kobe that series and I'll never forget that game six. 131-92... And Kobe had a terrible second half. Once again, I don't feel like doing the research, but I'm pretty sure Kobe shot around 40% this series.
- Kobe had a great series vs the Magic in 2009, but I still don't think he had that "defining" moment. I don't think he dominated the series. He had a chance to make a defining moment in game two, but he had his shot blocked by Hedo Turkoglu. The following play, Courtney Lee missed that layup, which would've made that series VERY interesting had he made it. And I'm not for 100% sure, but I think Lee was Kobe's man on that play.
- Kobe gutted it out vs Boston in 2010 and did have double figure rebounds, plus made some plays down the stretch, but let's be honest... He almost lost the Lakers that game. He was taking terrible shots.
I have Kobe outside of my top five, but if he can win another title or two, he could finish his career in my top five. He's clearly not done yet.
as far as pierce outplaying kobe in the 2008 finals, pierce averaged 22 on 43% shooting while kobe averaged 26 on 41% shooting. And do realize that vladamir radmanovic and luke walton were trading off an pierce while kobe was swaremed and trapped every time he put the ball on the floor. If thats pierce outplaying kobe, so be it. We saw what happened next time when pierce had a real defender(artest) on him.
Thank you for disrespecting (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) one of the greatest hof's of all time.
This got to me, I definitely do not agree with Charles.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/ball_dont_lie/post/Barkley-Kobe-Bryant-is-one-of-the-five-greates;_ylt=AhJwozRqvEgUiQimTBxsmHK8vLYF?urn=nba-287681