Where do you rank Jeremy Lin among NBA PGs? I am not posting this to disparage Lin, I actually like his game and find him entertaining. Too much hype, though? Maybe? Not sure. These rankings do not take into account age. So this is a list of players I'd rather have than Lin right now, for this upcoming season, regardless of how many more years I'd have them (although I am including Rose even though he's hurt):
1. Derrick Rose
2. Chris Paul
3. Deron Williams
4. Russell Westbrook
5. Tony Parker
6. Steve Nash
7. Kyrie Irving
8. Steph Curry
9. Rajon Rondo
10. John Wall
11. Ty Lawson
12. Brandon Jennings
13. Ricky Rubio
So, at best, he's the 14th best PG. I would classify Lin as in the same basic category as the following:
1. Jrue Holiday
2. Kemba Walker
3. Damian Lillard
4. Goran Dragic
5. Aaron Brooks
6. Mike Conley Jr.
So, he's somewhere between the 15th and 22nd best PGs, which would make him average to below average. His young age, however, gives him some added value. I would classify him as "definitely better" than these (who are in no particular order):
1. Darren Collison
2. Isaiah Thomas
3. Greivis Vasquez / Austin Rivers (for now)
4. Mo Williams
5. DJ Augustin
6. Raymond Felton
7. Jason Kidd
8. Brandon Knight
Overall, some of those scoring outbursts were pretty spectacular, but he averaged 14.6 points and 6 assists last year.
I think you're basically right. It is hard to know what to expect of him next year, as he'll be on a very young and inexperienced team, barring a major trade. He was very inconsistent at times last year, as you would expect a 2nd year pg to be on a team in turmoil. I would argue that he is likely to be better than Brandon Jennings, who is worse than Rubio, Dragic, and Holiday, but that's the only big thing that jumped out at me right there.
I am not very high on Brandon Jennings myself, but 19.1 ppg is too much production to ignore, especially considering Rubio's struggles putting the ball in the hoop. Jrue Holiday only scores 13 points. But I agree, personally I'd probably not really want Jennings running my team.
I also omitted Jeff Teague and Devin Harris, because I'm not sure which one will start, but they would go to the group of players whom Lin is better.
Surely you simply forgot George Hill
Yeah, I'm not sure who will start, Augustin or Hill. Lin is better than them, though, I'd say.
What about Kyle Lowry? The Rockets obviously prefer Lin to Lowry. Seems kinda 50-50 to me.
I like Lin, but I'd like to see him have a full season before I start trying to rank him. Hopefully he can play pretty much the same as his stretch this year, but with less turnovers.
BTW I don't know how you could rank Rondo at 9th. The way he's been playing he's probably about the 3rd best point guard. Strong defense, great rebounder, gets a ton of assists, improved free throw shooter, and improving as a shooter overall. He averaged 17.3ppg, 11.9apg, 6.7rpg, and 2.4spg in the playoffs. He also had 4 triple doubles in this year's playoffs. I'd list him as tied with 3rd with Deron Williams.
Yeah, 9 probably is low for Rondo, again, it was more about counting the number of PGs who are better than Lin. But still, you'd take Rondo over Nash? Their assists are close, but Nash is statistically the greatest shooter to ever play professional basketball. I know Rondo is a far better defender and rebounder...but c'mon, Nash is 50-40-90 every year and there's no one else who's ever done it more than once!
Lmfao @ Stephen Curry above Rondo and in the top-10.
Their sequential order is debatable, I'm just saying that's the group of players who would be ahead of Lin. My intention wasn't to rank them all perfectly, just to count the total number of PGs who are better than Lin.
Also, when Steph Curry was healthy, he averaged 18.6 points on insane percentages from the floor, the 3-point line, and the field, and still gets 6 or so assists. Rondo only averaged 11.6 points last year, so let's not get carried away, they're closer than you might think.
When's the last time he was healthy? He averaged 14-5-3 so don't try to overblow those stats.
"Rondo only averaged 11.6 point last year"
Actually he averaged 11.9 but how are you going to completely ignore his 11.7 APG and near 5 rebounds? Along with his near 2 spg. Not to mention, he's the best player on the team that made it to the ECF. He's a 10x better defender and floor general than Stephen Curry.
So let's see, a point guard that can get you a triple-double on any given night along with far above average defense and can control the tempo and can beat any given team without scoring over 5 points in a game or a trigger-happy injury-prone shoot-first PG that hasn't had a winning record in his three years in the league. Hmm, simple enough.
Assists are a whole lot easier to come by when you play with three hall of famers!
Just as I can't ignore Rondo's passing, you can't ignore that Curry is one of the deadliest shooters in the NBA.
And last year he was injured, so I went back to the stats from the year he was healthy.
Clearly, it is a debate. Rondo has had nights when he is clanking wide open perimeter shots off the rim all night long.
I'm not a Rondo hater, I love watching him distribute the ball and he is an absolute master at setting teammates up, but you are really, really discounting how good Stephen Curry is when healthy.
What would Rondo's record have been when surrounded by Dorrell Wright and Andris Biedrins instead of Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, and Kevin Garnett?
Have you watchd Rondo play at all?
Curry is a terrific shooter but aside from that, what else does he do? He's not a good passer, doesn't have great vision, hardly drives the ball, plays no defense, doesn't win games, doesn't control tempo. He does nothing else but shoot the ball.
I don't care if you're playing with Jordan, Kareem, Bird, and Barkley. If you're averaging nearly 12 APG, it says something.
Rondo is clearly a top-6 point guard in the league and in the playoffs, year after year, he's the best point-guard performer or atleast 2nd best next to Rose.
I don't like Rondo and am indifferent towards Curry, but this isn't really a debate. Rondo at this point is well above Curry. Rondo is probably a Top 3 PG, Curry is somewhere in the 7-10 range. Rondo just does too many things well opposed to Curry who's a great shooter, but not nearly the passer or defender Rondo is and won't ever be.
You've obviously not played much fantasy basketball or you would know that Curry is a stat stuffer across the board. He definitely gets assists and steals. And he rebounds pretty good for a PG. He is a very complete player who also has a great jump shot.
But Rondo should be in the top five of any list of PGs.
I'm sorry to say, but assists for a player from any team are more valuable than PPG's coming from a Golden State Warriors' player. Look, Golden State is a team which year in and year out ranks out at the top of the highest scoring teams (though they were only 12th this season, but it ain't surprising considering that they played rookies for the last quarter of the season or so and that Curry was injured during most of the season). We're talking about a team that made Reggie Williams, 11ppg while on a below-average JDA Dijon team in France the year before, look like a good NBA player with 15 ppg. We're talking about a franchise that had something like 7 or 8 players above 10ppg the year they beat the Mavericks in the playoffs for a huge upset. So given the Warriors' all offense style, scoring points on this team isn't that impressive (ex. Ellis went from scoring around 22ppg with the Warriors to 18ppg with the Bucks with similar percentages and playing time).
Also, by comparing Rondo and Curry's points scored, you omit the fact that Rondo CAN score at will. He really marked me when the Celtics played the Knicks on opening day, man could score at will. Remember also when he had 44pts 10rbds 8 assists against the Heat during the playoffs. This guy can score, but his limited scoring numbers are mostly due to the fact that he has to feed 3 future hall of famers on his team, and that this is more efficient.
All in all, as much as I love Curry (wanted to buy his jersey last year but the Nba store couldn't produce it cuz of the lockout) and don't like Rondo, you have to say that, as of right now, Rondo is much, much better than Curry and that his place is up there in the top 5 in front of Parker and I think even before Westbrook, though it's very close. And your stats won't change anything.
Good list. I'd have to put Jrue Holiday, Conley, Lowry, Dragic, Calderon, Teague at or above Lin's level.
So I'd say Lin is probably 18th-20th best PG in the league, with room to improve.
Isn't it crazy how much media attention his signing with Houston received for being in the bottom third at his position?!
Dude,you're the only person i've seen that has Rondo outside of the nba's top 5 pgs....Some might argue,he's top 3.....
I liked Lin when he was at Harvard and felt he would be a nice backup,in the Steve Blake mold..But after seeing him perform in the Summer League 2 years ago,i was convinced he could be a productive starter if giving the minutes...If he doesnt get injured,i say by season's end,alot of people will have him ranked in the 7 to 12 range among pgs.....
Even if someone doesn't consider him Top 5, he's certainly above #9, and above Curry.
The top bunch is REALLY stacked though...
Those are 7 absolute studs at the PG position.
There's no way to gauge Lin's status among other point guards after playing at a spectacular level, but doing such for only 25 games or so. It's way too early to make that kind of judgment about his place in the game.
Here's another important point, you cannot measure what he did for NY using stats. Anyone who followed that experience was constantly shaking their head in disbelief at what Lin repeatedly accomplished over a period of several weeks. It may have been the most amazing 6 weeks of sports I ever saw in my life.
In my opinion, based on what he did last season, Lin has the ability to become a top ten PG in the NBA. But there are always caveats. If he's on the right team and stays healthy. Of course we have no idea yet if Houston will be a good fit for him.
One thing we know for sure, at this point in time we're talking only about potential. I think by January or February this will be an easier question to answer.
I only rank in terms of how they affect the win column. With Lin, I dont know yet...we will have to see what he does in a new offense without D'Antoni. The stats dont mean as much if his team is better with him than without.
Rose, Paul, Rondo, Westbrook, and Parker all heavily affect the win column. I havent seen where DWill adversly affects win/lose column by himself, someone can correct me if I am wrong but Utah didnt completely fall off after him and he didnt add a lot of wins to NJ. We will still put him in there because he is in the same class as the other guys as for what he brings to the table. After that, its wide open so Lin can move up or back...it depends on team success.
He's not better than Jeff Teague, Jrue Holiday,Darren Collison, Mike Conley Jr, Raymond Felton, Eric Bledsoe, Kyle Lowry etc...honestly you put any of them in that New York system they would have done the same thing Lin did, Lin is still unproven to me as a top 20 PG, he's an NBA player for sure but top 20-25? I don't know yet.
And to the OP having Rondo #9 PG in the NBA automatically shuts your list and topic down lol. Rondo is the best PG in the NBA, now im not saying he is the best player playing PG, but far as what a PG has to bring to the team, Rondo is 2nd to none.
No love for Brandon Knight, huh?
No love for Brandon Knight, huh?
Fast and Furious said, "you put any of them in that New York system they would have done the same thing Lin did"
He can't be serious. I'm a lot older than most of you guys and that was the most incredible six weeks of basketball (or any sport) I ever experienced. Linsanity went way beyond anything I can think of in modern American sports history. The only event even close that comes to mind is the 1980 US win over the Soviets at Lake Placid.
He played with the guys from the end of the bench and took them some place nobody ever thought they could go until he ran out of steam and Anthony returned.
Lin electrified MSG and the entire country. He brought back crisp ball movement and teamwork to a level we hadn't seen since Clyde Frazier, Bill Bradey, and Dave Debusschere were in a Knicks uniform.
When you neg give reasons don't just neg to neg, this is a forum/debate, voice your opinion, if you don't agree, write a response, don't just neg.
"Overall, some of those scoring outbursts were pretty spectacular, but he averaged 14.6 points and 6 assists last year."
By the way, he averaged those numbers because they also took into account the games where he played garbage minutes and games where he played 1 or 2 minutes.
There were 8 games where he played 1-9 minutes in and they were taken into account. But let's take a look at his minute splits.
- 20-29 minutes (8 games): 12 PPG, 6 APG
- 30-39 minutes (15 games): 19 PPG, 7 APG
- 40+ minutes (4 games): 26 PPG, 11.5 APG
Also, his stats as a starter/off the bench
- Starter (25 games): 18 PPG, 7.7 APG
- Bench (10 games): 5.7 PPG, 2.4 APG, 9 MPG
So his 14 PPG, 6 APG stats are also skewed much like most of your "facts" and opinions.
Excellent points, but the most important stat is he took guys from the end of the bench and found a way to win every night.
That was an incredible run by Lin no doubt, but I still believe you put any of those PG's I mentioned in that same position they would put up the same numbers or close to it, Lin had an extremly looooooooooong leash that gave him an huge amount of confidence, and with any player in the NBA that gets decent amount of minutes and is playing with confidence they produce, im still not sold on him.
I'm not talking about the stats. I watched everyone of his games and he took guys at the end of the bench and made them winners every night. He rocked MSG and electrified the entire country. What he did was unique in the history of modern American sports. Nobody on the list of names you mentioned could even come close to what Lin achieved.
Please ignore the numbers, even though tongue-out made some excellent points about Lin's stats as a starter.
Now that was the past, what will he do in Houston? I can't wait to find out but one thing I'm confident of, he's better off there than in NY with Carmelo Anthony.
This list just means that the NBA is loaded with point guards. Rose and Paul are superstars. Steve Nash is aging but also a super star. D-Will and Westbrook are also in that category. Tony Parker is a very, very good point guard, if not a superstar then a legit all-star. I think that Rondo could be anywhere in the top 7 or 8 on this list, but in my opinion he is one of the best 10 or 15 guys in the league.
After those guys I like Kyrie Irving next on this list. However, after those guys Jeremy Lin is as good as anyone on that list. Lot's of talent in the 10-25 range with not a lot of separation. I don't think Lin is up there with Rose, Paul, or even Rondo but I think he is up there with guys like Rubio, Lawson, and maybe even Kyrie Irving.
There's a ton of depth at point guard considering Rondo could be listed 8th or 9th on this list and he seems like a top 10 MVP candidate.
If you think that Nash is on the decline (which he has to be) and TP will start to decline soon then possibly the only guys clearly ahead of Lin would be Rose, Paul, D-Will, Westbrook, and Rondo. Kyrie Irving is another good, young point guard but he tends to shoot more than pass. Lin made his teammates better. Will Irving do the same thing? I think Ricky Rubio will be up here too, but can he get in that top 3 or 4 point guard category?
In two years the top 10 might look like this:
1. Derrick Rose
2. TIE Chris Paul
4. Rajon Rondo
5. Deron Williams
6. Ricky Rubio
7. TIE Kyrie Irving
9. Steph Curry
10. Ty Lawson
The NBA is just freakishly loaded at point guard right now, and the Rockets locked up a young point guard who is in the top 15-20 RIGHT NOW and a guy who could be in the top 10 (or 7ish) within two years.
Judging his upside based on his 25 game cameo appearance for the Knicks, his ability to make his teammates better, and his incredible marketing potential I really like what Darryl Morey did, going after this guy and building a team around Lin Ball.
Not sold yet, Houston will be his real test, everyone in the NBA now knows about him, he wont be sneaking up on anyone.
I still don't think he's better than those guards I mentioned tho, at least not yet.
every time i'm looking at them - Jeremy Lin and Goran Dragic are the same player, like very similar it's crazy!
Fast and Furious, I don't think you understood my point. I'm completely separating the incredible achievments of Linsanity versus his future in Houston. What he did for six weeks went beyond incredible. That's why I love the word "Linsanity", I never saw anything like that in my life.
Now let's move on to next season. As I said in one of my earlier posts in this thread, trying to rank Lin versus other PGs is premature. It's far too early gauge where he belongs. We can't judge him on the basis of 20 to 25 games.
What we can do, based on what Lin demonstrated last season, is state with full confidence he has the skills to be a top ten PG in the NBA. Will that happen? At this point in time nobody knows. A lot will depend on his teammates, the style of play, what level of confidence the head coach has in Lin, and his health. One must always be cautious with any player coming off of knee surgery.
He will never be a top ten PG in the NBA I bet my last dollar on that no way never.
But I understand where your coming from as I stated that was incredible what he did, BUT that still means nothing to me, besides the fact that he did get overlooked a few times and he is a legit NBA player, but he's not as good as the other guys I mentioned.
As I also stated he had a long leash, huge confidence, and he was the first,2nd and third option with the top players for the Knicks out at that time.
Lester Hudson who isn't on an NBA roster as of now(I don't think he is) had a stretch last year to where he put up 19pts, 6rebs/25pts,8rebs,6ast/26pts,4rebs,3ast/23pts,7ast,2rebs, and he's not on a team, any NBA player can put up the stats if they get the time and confidence put in them, and I think that's what happened with Lin but since he is asian and was winning a couple games it got totally blew out of context.
Eric Bledsoe his rookie year at 19 yrs old, when I think Baron Davis went down had a stretch of games as well, 17pts,8ast,4rebs/12pts,13ast/14pts,5rebs,5ast/8pts,8ast,6rebs/11pts,8ast/15pts,8rebs,6ast.
Alot of guys can put up numbers, but his real test will come in Houston, then we will see what Jeremy Lin is really about.
Fast and Furious, you're a guy obsessed with numbers and stats. From my perspective there are no numbers or stats that can quantify what Lin did to the Knicks, MSG, and the entire country last season. So your comparison numbers are meaningless.
Does anyone in America know who Lester Hudson is? Case closed!
Back to next season, you have your opinion and I have mine. The level of talent displayed by Lin last season was mind boggling. But will he do it again next season under very different circumstances in Houston? As I stated earlier, nobody knows.
But I'm confident Lin has the skills and feel for the game which make him a potential top ten PG. But potential is just that, a word until you prove it on the court. I can't wait to see what happens in Houston this year.
In my opinion, the league is so stacked at the PG spot that just because he's 15-18 or so doesn't make him below average. He's more than capable, it's just that there are SO many great PGs out there. I think he'll be higher than 15 though for sure
Also I wish I could've gotten here earlier so I could've said something about Rondo at #9. No excuse for that...oh, and how can you put Damian Lillard better than guys like Conley and Dragic before playing 1 minute in a real game? I think he'll be very good also, but I don't think there's any way you can put rookies in the rankings before they play against normal competition
Rondo's being undervalued here damn
Rondo is definitely better than Curry, Irving, Nash, Westbrook, Parker.
I don't think people understand that Rondo's defense is as good/valuable as say, Westbrook's offense, easily. I'd say leading the league in assists, rebounds amongst PGs, steals, and being the best all around defensive PG far outweigh the only skill any of these other guys have on him, scoring.
But really, the 10 point difference in Westbrook and Rondo's scoring average is more than balanced out by Rondo's extra 6.2 assists, career 48% shooting (VS 43% from Westbrook) and Rondo's career 2.7 turnovers are nicer than Westbrooks 3.5 tpg.
No one shows Rondo love but you have to respect him as a top 5 pg in the game.
You tell me when numbers have ever lied.....men lie,women lie, numbers don't.
Im not sold on Lin we will see this year what he does.
Fast and Furious, are you reading my posts? I repeatedly showed you how the numbers are deceiving. Jeremy Lin took a bunch of guys from the end of the bench, lit up the league, electrified MSG, and captured the imagination of the country. How in the world do you measure that with those meaningless numbers you posted?
As I mentioned earlier, the only stat I looked at was the fact that a bunch of benchwarmers, under Lin's leadership, took the league by storm and found a way to win every night.
I dont think Lin will ever be a top 10 point guard in this league. No team will unleash him like the Knicks did because simply his talent level isnt at the other point guards. Linsanity showed us what you can do with heart. Im not trying to sound like a hater i think he can be a 15 and 7 point guard a solid point but nothing spectacular.
I don't know about number, but I think he lines up about where Kirk Hinrich did in his prime. A capable, starting caliber point guard, who can take a team and compete in the playoffs, but not a guy to build your team around and not at the level as an All-Star.
I think Lin will be between 10 and 20 in the league point guards. Still a good number of turnovers, but also plenty of points and decent assists.
Not to quibble with the list above, but Kemba Walker should not be listed as an NBA PG. He was a guy who was drafted and he is on a team, but he hasn't show the ability to hit shots yet and he needs to do that to play in this league. He certainly shouldn't be compared to Lin.
^Kemba looks to be making the transition. I'm the king of not wanting to read too much into Summer League, but I have to admit, in that kind of loose format where guys turn the ball over a lot, Kemba is 7.3 apg to only 1.2 TO per game in 4 summer league wins. That's a good omen, IMO.
Kemba is not the perfect player, but I don't doubt his work eithic and desire to succeed.