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Plumlees Terrible

TallmanNYC
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Plumlees Terrible

How bad are the Plumlee brothers? I catch a fair number of Duke games and have caught the NCAA games so far. The Plumlee brothers are tall, they've got good verticals and some footspeed. And yet they seem to pretty much not accomplish very much on the basketball court, at least not on the offensive side of the court. Miles, the older one, is 6' 10" with a 36" jump; that is Blake Griffin territory. With that type of physical skill and years of top level coaching, is it too much to ask that they guy have one offensive move that he can actually do against a defender? Okay, a few times a game a Plumlee will get forgotten by the defense, roll to the hoop and dunk an alley-oop. That is nice. But seriously, how about a drop step or a turn around jump shot out of the post? It seems the only move they have between them is a sweeping hook shot that doesn't have a chance in hell of going in.

Pathetic waste of talent at this stage. Hopefully the third Plumlee brother (a seven footer) can do better.


Malik-Universal
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they just have very little

they just have very little skill

both are very mobile and good athletes

i wouldnt said there horrible tho

but they desperatley need an offensive game

duke would be even more threatening if both of em had more than just easy dunks and lay ins

mikeyvthedon
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I would check that vertical again

I have no idea if that vert is correct, but they are definitely athletic. 36 inches though? For a player of his size, that would be pretty crazy territory, I think at least slice 4-6 off of that more than likely. If you are 6'10 and have over a 30, you are a pretty decent athlete, and both of them definitely are. However, they are incredibly raw offensively and are just not polished in that area, but thus far neither of them have needed to be. They have primary scorers and they get their points off of putbacks and hustle plays. Also, as athletic as they are, footwork for big men takes a lot of time to develop, and neither of them is incredibly graceful in that area. They also do not have the foot speed of a Blake Griffin or Dwight Howard, both of whom have barely over a 36 inch vert, which makes me very much question where you got that number for Plumlee. With his standing reach, he more than likely would need just 18 inches to dunk a basketball, and anything over 26 is pretty much gravy for someone over 6'10 on the NCAA level.

Do not get me wrong, I marvel that both of the Plumlee's are not a little more dangerous on the offensive end. But, thus far they have really not needed to be. Plus, they have both been doing really well when it comes to rebounding and defense, which is what they are being asked to do. Marshall is probably in the exact same boat, but he has a lot of potential and might be the tallest one yet as a legit 7 footer. On another program, they may indeed be scoring more points, but Duke already has Nolan Smith, Kyle Singler and now Kyrie Irving. They have been a perimeter oriented team and it has worked out fine thus far. I truly am not a Duke fan, but even I can see that their system is working, and while I maybe expected more out of Mason as an offensive option, I know Miles is pure defense and rebounding, which he has done a great job at in the tournament. More and more big guys are being relegated to the role of being a player that sets picks and looks for the boards on offense and in college, without the 3 second lane call, you stand and protect the basket down low. This takes up a lot of your energy, and neither of them is exactly a powerhouse as far as muscling up their defenders on a post up. They may not be amazing offensive players, but if Duke wins the chip, they are big reasons why, as they were last year as well with their play off of the bench. I do not like them either, and they should have more of an offensive repetoire, but they do not suck.

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When I first seen Mason play

When I first seen Mason play last year I thought he was very skilled & better than Miles. How I see it now Marshall will be the best Plumlee.

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hahaha

36 inch vert??? for Miles??? Mason is obviously the more athletic one and he's not at that level. you make me laugh @tallman. And they are not horrible. Mason has great potential but he has not shown up in big games, prone to foul trouble and it seems Kyrie made him look better than he is. Then again once he went down, Nolan just took over and is a scorer, not a passer even though his assist numbers are decent (5.2 per). Hopefully Mason stays another to develop, I can see him jumping depending on what he and Duke do the rest of the tourney.

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I got the 36" vert number of

I got the 36" vert number of the Duke Bio Website. It says that Miles jumps 36" and is the best leaper on the team. I believe the number (check out some of their dunk stuff on youtube) and yes, it is an elite jump at 6' 10" (another number which I assume is "in shoes" but I also believe). I like your comparison to Blake and Dwight, Blake tested out at 36" in the draft combines and he measured at 6' 9" in shoes, I think. I think he is jumping higher now and is probably nearing 40" which is where Dwight is. I don't know how Blake did that post-surgery, but I think he has done it. Still it is a good comparison of a comparable physical guy who just destroyed people in college and continues to do so in the NBA.

But I think we are both in agreement that it is shocking how little they accomplish offensively considering their athletic gifts and the fact that they seem to hustle and try hard. How many years can they be "raw offensively"? I mean even growing up they each had an elite defender to play against in their backyard not to mention at school! You figure one of them would have learned a post game just playing against the other or Coach K could have taught them something by now.

But if either of the Plumlees get it together during the NCAAs, then another championship is a lock. Because the potential is there.

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How exactly are there

How exactly are there terrible...they are the starting big men on a top 3 team in the country. They are both exceptional shot blockers and good rebounders. No they dont have any kind of crazy skill set, but that will come with time in the case of Mason, i believe. To say they arent that great, i wouldnt disagree. But terrible? come on. Terrible is Brian Scalabrine.

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Terrible is a strong word.

Terrible is a strong word. They aren't that skilled fits better. Other then there athletic ability and size they don't bring much to the table. They can't create and they aren't that good at defending when matched up against a skilled big man( Jordan Williams dominating them everytime they play comes to mind). Ive watched the youngest brother play two times and he's also overrated. The middle one will get drafted because of his athletic ability though but he needs to make sure he comes out at the right time( now would be good) before teams realize how much skill he really lacks

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It does say it on the site.....

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22727&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1580059&Q_SEASON=2010

However, on the University of Oregon site it says that LaMichael James runs a 4.69 forty. Something does not necessarily add up, I would like to know how official or professional this testing was. Not to mention the way they do vert at the combines is no step and one step, so maybe he did his with a full head of steam. Regardless, he is going up against guys who are usually either just as athletic or bigger than he is, and he does not have an incredible skill set. Still, he is relied upon as a rebounder and defender, and his play off of the ball is important and gets them a lot of open shots. If Duke loses in the tournament, you could blame the Plumlee's (though I probably wouldn't), but if they keep winning, they can suck all they want. Another possibility is that they both are not incredibly long. They released wing spans of players over the summer, which again I do not know how professional they were or if it was a typo, but the youngest brother, Marshall, had a very short wingspan. It is a not a complete excuse, but it definitely could be a hinderance playing against players who have an equal standing reach even if they are shorter.

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Terrible is Tough

Okay, terrible is tough to call them. But everyone has to admit that they haven't really played at the level everyone expected this year. These guys aren't supposed to be a down grade from Zubek from last year. And Coach K sat them both during crunch time in the last game.

Maybe they don't have elite wingspan. Really much more important than height is your reach. So that could be an issue.

I assume the 36" number is a running start. It seems fair to test your max jump. When I played and did vertical tests I was always allowed to run and jump (and I didn't jump anywhere near close to 36"). I thought the draft was no step and running start numbers. I didn't think it was limited to no step and one step. That makes those numbers even more impressive if they are just one step. Seems tough to test one legged jumpers off of a one step test though. And most dunks in games are done with at least something of a running start.

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It could be running start

I just know that in the NFL it seemed like they only took one step or so. Max Vert honestly could be more. I just have the hardest time thinking that Miles Plumlee jumps as high as Blake Griffin and close to Dwight Howard. They just do not at all have the same velocity and speed. I guess that is why you can only take the combine numbers with a grain of salt, because you just have to watch them play to see that their is a big difference in their ups. Miles Plumlee can jump and all, but he is not even in the arena of those two guys, which is why that number looks strange.

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I definitely believe the 36"

I definitely believe the 36" vertical. He came close to making a free throw line dunk at the Duke Blue/White scrimmage and apparently jumped clear over Zoubek for a dunk in a scrimmage last year.

I think Miles and Mason are the kind of guys who would wow you in an open gym or a scrimmage, but they're far less aggressive in-game.

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The younger Plumlee isn't

The younger Plumlee isn't terrible, I think had Irving played the entire season, Mason Plumlee would have been a top 15 pick

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I believe Miles has a 36''

I believe Miles has a 36'' vert, check this out

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For real basketball minds

As no one brought up the point the Coach K can't coach big men. There is LONG list of McDonald's All-American big men at Duke that game as not developed or got worst.

Chris Burgess

Joey Beard

Cherokee Parks

Shavilk Randolph

Josh McRoberts

And don't give credit to Coach K for Brand and Boozer because their games got better when they got into the league and drop some weight.

Duke current big man coach is Steve Wojciechowski....?????????????

Imagine that.

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As no one brought up the

As no one brought up the point the Coach K can't coach big men. There is LONG list of McDonald's All-American big men at Duke that game as not developed or got worst.

Brand was a stud. Boozer was very solid as well. No credit for Shelden Williams? Christian Lattener? Josh McRoberts wasn't terrible either, he just left early AS well as playing during Duke worst season.

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Ive said that before but some

Ive said that before but some Duke fans use the excuse that the big men werent that good to begin with even though they dominated in H.S and were Micky'D's. So they had talent they just werent developed right

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^ dominating high school

^ dominating high school doesn't mean much, you can dominate high school ball with pure athleticism and height, you really don't need skill. When in college you need skill, you can't get by with pure athleticism.

And saying they weren't developed right is wrong, maybe they just didn't put in enough hard work or wanted it bad enough to get as good as they could of been.

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Yeah but these guys were

Yeah but these guys were skilled. They didnt just dominate H.S they out played college bigs at camp as well as other top big men. They were never accused of not working hard they just werent developed right and thats not news to anyone that Duke doesn't develop big men that well. They develop guards very well though which is what there offense is built around. Basically development goes by what the offense is built around which is why some schools are known for having better players at certain positions

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Brand was a stud. Boozer was

Brand was a stud. Boozer was very solid as well. No credit for Shelden Williams? Christian Lattener? Josh McRoberts wasn't terrible either, he just left early AS well as playing during Duke worst season.

Brand was good at Duke, but once he got to the NBA...his game improved immensely. Boozer never lived up to the hype at Duke that he was given out of high school. Once he got to the NBA and was allowed to develop and play his type of game...All-Star.

Sheldon Williams is a bench player...barely (he's lucky to have Candace Parker...LOL). Lattener was a great college player...but was never prepared for the NBA. Go ahead and add Danny Ferry...tremendous college player...not prepared for the NBA.

Coach K style of play never develops big men...he uses them only as rebounders, pick-n-roll screens, taking charges, and the 5th option.

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They definitely need to get a

They definitely need to get a better big man coach. There've been a number of times when the Plumlees haven't boxed out or have gotten poor position; it happens too often for me to think it's just a random thing. And watching the middle one trying to create his own offense is painful; he catches the ball like 15 feet from the rim, thinks he's a guard, dribbles into trouble, and tries a fadeaway jumper. Someone needs to teach them footwork, 'cause their footwork right now sucks.

On another note, does Syracuse do a good job developing big men? I'm thinking of Arinze Onuaku and Rick Jackson, recently.

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Was just going to bring that

Was just going to bring that up...

Duke has major issues developing big men.

Plumlee Bros, Ryan Kelly, Czyz, Lance Thomas, Zoubek, Boateng, McRoberts (suck in the NBA), Randolph, Shelden Williams (suck in the NBA), etc.

The list goes on and on.

Pretty embarassing actually.

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Lance Thomas - Ring Brian

Lance Thomas - Ring

Brian Zoubek - Ring

Josh McRoberts - key word NBA

Czyz - not really a big man, in over his head at Duke so transferred

Boateng - transferred, turned out pretty good at Arizona State

Randolph - NBA

Shelden Williams - NBA (5th pick in the draft)

thats not embarassing at all, not everyone can be Dwight Howard

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The Plumlees have some sort

The Plumlees have some sort of skillset. But I when I watch Duke, all I see are a bunch of white guys trying to crash the boards after Duke bricks one of their 30 3-pointer attempts.

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Quincey's weak attempt to

Quincey's weak attempt to slight coach K is just lame. 4 titles, more than any other active coach, US Gold Medal, and has had plenty of good big men.

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Lance Thomas - Ring Brian

Lance Thomas - Ring

Brian Zoubek - Ring

Josh McRoberts - key word NBA

Czyz - not really a big man, in over his head at Duke so transferred

Boateng - transferred, turned out pretty good at Arizona State

Randolph - NBA

Shelden Williams - NBA (5th pick in the draft)

Let bring up the high school Americans: (Potential NBA first round talent when they came to Duke)

Chris Burgess -

First Team Parade All-American: 1997
First Team USA Today All-American: 1997
McDonald's All-American: 1997
The Sporting News National Player of the Year: 1997
California State Player of the Year: 1997
USA Junior Select National Team: 1997

Averaged 4.9 ppg and 3.6 over his 2 years there. Never average over 20 minutes a game at Duke....where some development?

Cherokee Parks -

First Team Parade All-American

McDonalds All-american

6 different teams in 7 years in the NBA...?????

Here is the total list of McDonald All-Americans Big Men that went to Duke and showed NO improvement at Duke:

Crawford Palmer

Cherokee Parks

Chris Burgess

Joey Beard

Taymon Domzalski

Casey Sanders

Shavlik Randolph

Michael Thompson

Josh McRoberts

Eric Boateng

You are right...not everybody is meant to be Dwight Howard, but this is ridiculous.

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I don't think Czyz was over

I don't think Czyz was over his head. He put up some pretty nice numbers this year at Nevada and he's only a 6'7" forward anyway. I wouldn't consider him a big man necessarily. He just didn't have a spot at Duke.

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I got murdered for saying

I got murdered for saying this at the start of the season...and i guess it didnt help that Mason had a big double double the same night i posted it

As i said before...replace Steve Wojciechowski with a real bigman coach like Danny Manning(who will have a great career as a head coach) and you would have whole different set of Plumlees on the floor.

But im just a simple point whore what do i know

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McDunkin, you're right, I

McDunkin, you're right, I think with a couple years with Manning they'd both be lottery picks. I don't know if any of you remember the Morris twins and Cole Aldrich as freshmen, but Danny Manning is a miracle worker.

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I think there is something to

I think there is something to this Big Man Development issue. The offense has moved away from the big men at Duke. I don't think that is wrong as I think the zone defenses that a lot of colleges play make it harder for big men to post up but easier for them to crash the offensive boards; and that is what the Plumlees do. I think Coach K would agree that he didn't get the most out of Parks or McRoberts (though I think they weren't the hardest workers and, at least in the case of McRoberst he seems like kind of an idiot (the guy shoots his jump shots with his left hand despite the fact that he is right handed and guess what, he never developed a jumpshot that he could actually use in a game, what a surprise!).

Draft placements aren't a good indicator of developing talent because the NBA consistently drafts Duke players higher than they should go because the players are so successful in the system they play. Sheldon Williams going 5th when he basically can't do anything at the NBA level really was terrible.

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Well, it's easy to look back

Well, it's easy to look back at Williams going 5th and call it a mistake, because it was, but when you have a 6'9'' 255 lb prospect who averaged 18 pts 11 rbs and over 3 blocks a game in college who then went to the combine and measured a 7'4'' wingspan benched 185 lbs 25 times and tested a 33.5'' max vert it's hard to look past someone like that. I don't think you can place any blame on Coach K for Shelden Williams, the guy just fooled everyone in the NBA.

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Danny Manning

Good point about Danny Manning.

How can you have a big man coach, who is not a big man....who never played the position....never had to execute a drop step, jump hook, up and under moves, identifying double teams and passing lanes out of the post, never had to develop simple back-to-basket post moves.

I really admire what Mike Krzyzewski has done as a Coach, but he need more insight on his program's development of big men...he actually may get even more Rings if he does.

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The problem is that in his

The problem is that in his time at Duke they havent really had that many great bigman, but yet he refuses to hire outside of the Duke family when it comes to assistants

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How am i slighting him?..no

How am i slighting him?..no one is questioning his coaching ability. The problem is some fans liek you think no one can criticize him....ever. Everyone has flaws or something they dont do very well including Coach K. Just accept it and move on or don't accept it and continue to think he is Flawless

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Applause!!! Lake show2 I

Applause!!! Lake show2

I totally agree with you...but as long as he continue to get talented guards (Quinn Cook and Austin Rivers in '11 and then Rasheed Sulaimon in '12), Coach K will never develop Big Man...just use them to get his guards off.

Thanks for listening

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Perfect example

Perfect example of the lack of big men development from Duke last night. If Duke took the time to develop (game situations) and went inside to at least attempt to make Derrick Williams work...maybe they could have got him in foul trouble....maybe they could have got him to play tentatively...instead he was dunking on their heads. Of course there were other reason for the lost (Smith didn't get it going....Singler disappeared in the second half), but when a team is making a run at you...you don't throw up more three's....you go inside...slow the game down and stop the momentum.

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Coach K's system relies on

Coach K's system relies on hard pick setting, fundimental, defensive bigs, that rebound and play big. Thats what his bigs do. When you committ to Duke and you dont like that, check the history before you commit. He makes his bigs well trained in fundimentals, and that is most definitely by design. He wins championships with this method, and that is not about to change anytme soon. I dont think he went recruiting the Plumlees and said "yeah I cant wait to turn these young players into legit lottery picks, and NBA Superstars" he recruited them saying "these young men could help Duke win Championships". Duke will be competing for more championships with the Plumlees in the very near future, and for years to come.

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Dr. Dunkenstein did you watch

Dr. Dunkenstein did you watch the game? The Plumlee's met Williams at the rim many times, blocks, fouls, and failed attempts. Give some credit to Derrick before you just discredit the Plumlee's.

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How many times did Derrick

How many times did Derrick Williams have a full head of steam going to the basket for a dunk? Against most other teams those are posters or uncontested dunks, but the Plumlees met him at the rim for most of his attempts. They're really very good shot blockers.

On the other hand, they aren't great rebounders and neither can really shoot. For a couple of possessions in a row last night Mason seemed like he wanted to try to take it to the gigantic red head for Arizona, but the best he could muster was a hook from 10 feet that didn't go down. I don't know if it's lack of skill or just nerves and lack of confidence that is their problem. Watching Miles shoot is excruciating though.

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I agree 100% @ohCanada. For

I agree 100% @ohCanada. For the most part Dukes Bigs are designed to set picks rebound and defend the rim. He doesn't seem too concerned with setting plays for them or developing them offensively. Doesn't really matter for him or the school because he wins titles with the way he does things. It does hurt the bigs as far as going to the next level but they know that coming into Duke.

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I agree 100% @ohCanada. For

I agree 100% @ohCanada. For the most part Dukes Bigs are designed to set picks rebound and defend the rim. He doesn't seem too concerned with setting plays for them or developing them offensively. Doesn't really matter for him or the school because he wins titles with the way he does things. It does hurt the bigs as far as going to the next level but they know that coming into Duke.

Dukes Bigs are NOT designed to set picks, rebound, and defend the rim...Coach K gameplan is designed for his bigs to do those things and nothing else.

You have to remember...he is a Bobby Knight's disciple...and does not adapt to the talent on his team (like Bobby Knight). That why whenever Duke has slow, bad guards his team struggles.

(i.e. Greg Paulus)

As good as Coach he may be....he need to realize that he needs a little change of direction in coaching of his big men.

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I was listening to the radio

I was listening to the radio earlier and they were talking about how Coach K was just out coached. I have to agree. It wasn't just that Arizona had Williams, it was that Duke looked completely disorganized on offense and defense. I've watched Duke all season and their defense is rooted in forcing people, specifically stars on the other teams, into committing charges. How many charges did Duke take last night? It was completely uncharacteristic.

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Duke usually disrupts teams

Duke usually disrupts teams offense because they go all out on defense, if a team finds out how to continue to score against that defense as well as stop Duke from hitting alot of three's Duke has shown to fall apart sometimes

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You have to remember...he is

You have to remember...he is a Bobby Knight's disciple...and does not adapt to the talent on his team (like Bobby Knight). That why whenever Duke has slow, bad guards his team struggles.

How'd they do Jon Scheyer's senior year? They changed the way they played on O and D when Kyrie arrived and Coach K said they would do so heading into the season. They played less pressure defense when Scheyer and Smith were the starting backcourt.

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