[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

ONE MAN’S 1968 DREAM TEAM

August 6th, 2012

 

A fellow named Dan Venedam of Blackboard Analytics has taken an interesting direction as regards to the 1992 Dream Team. Never mind a comparison to 2012—Venedam looks back to 1968 and theorizes that a team selected from NBA players and one collegian in that year would’ve been not only better but much better than the 1992 team.

“There’s a chance that Jordan might have been the only member of the 1992 team who would’ve been considered for the Olympics in 1968,” write Venedam.

That is plainly, patently and particularly ridiculous.

But Venedam has done some homework, running it down position-by-position. Remember that he is talking about the 1992 Dream Team as it was, i.e., accounting for injuries and age. So the 1968 team would have to be considered under the same criterion.

I want to try to eliminate the “every-generation gets better” argument, especially since I consistently argue that the 1992 team was better than the 2012 team. Plus, I have a theory on generational comparisons: The best players from earlier eras would find a way to be the best players in later eras.

But it is incumbent upon me to point out that some of the silly numbers posted in those days—Wilt with his 50-point scoring average and he and Russell with their routine 30-plus-rebound nights—just would not have happened in later eras. They are inflated and that, too, must be taken into consideration.

Let’s take a look at Venedam’s argument and my responses.

CENTER: Venedam picks Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell over David Robinson and Patrick Ewing.

VENEDAM SAYS: “Russell was near the end of his career but still had one more championship to win and was still averaging 18 rebounds a game. Chamberlain had an extraordinary season in 67-68, leading the NBA in rebounds, fourth in scoring and second in assists.”

MY COUNTER: Bringing up two of the greatest centers and guaranteed top 10 players in NBA history is a powerful argument. But there’s no way that at that point in their careers either player would’ve been taken over Robinson, who was five years younger than Wilt and seven years younger than Robinson. You could argue that either Wilt or Russell would get an elder-statesman vote over Ewing.

POWER FORWARD: Venedam picks Jerry Lucas and Willis Reed over Charles Barkley and Karl Malone.

VENEDAM SAYS: “In 1968, Jerry Lucas was an all-NBA power forward delivering 20 rebounds and 20 points a night and Willis Reed was a power forward.”

MY COUNTER: I’m not sure Reed was a power forward, but, at any rate, both were terrific players. But better than Charles and Karl? Puh-leeze. I liked Lucas, but, if he was a 20-20 guy, Barkley would’ve been a 25-25 guy in that era. This is a no-brainer for the ‘92 team. Not even close.

COLLEGE PLAYER: Venedam picks Elvin Hayes over Christian Laettner.

VENEDAM SAYS: “The best player coming out of college that year was Elvin Hayes, the best player still in college was Abdul-Jabbar, either a substantial step up over Christian Laettner.”

MY COUNTER: Bogus argument. Under the criterion for which Laettner was chosen, I doubt if Hayes would’ve been on the team. (Abdul-Jabbar would absolutely not have been since he was a junior.) Laettner was selected parly because he had done the dutiful grunge work for USA Basketball, having played on touring teams, and also because he was one of the Duke elite.

Hayes was clearly a better player than Laettner. But had they been going for strictly the best player in 1992, they would’ve gone for Shaquille O’Neal. Now, was the Big E better than the Big S? That’s a good question.

POINT GUARD: Venedam goes for Oscar Robertson and either Lenny Wilkens or Dave Bing over Magic Johnson and John Stockton.

VENEDAM SAYS: “I’d like to choose a young Magic, but this was an old Magic, already retired.  Instead I can have the Big O (who won his only scoring title in 67-68) and then it’s a fight for the backup between Lenny Wilkens or Dave Bing (who had his best year ever in 67-68).”

MY COUNTER: No, no, no, no, no. If Magic Johnson is standing, he is your point guard. He still conducted a halfcourt offense better than anyone, and, further, is a better leader to have around than Oscar.

As for Stock, well, he’s only the all-time leader in assists and steals. He is every bit as good as Lenny, one of his assistant coaches on the ’92 Dream Team. I do love Bing, who is one of the game’s most underrated players. So if he wants to put Magic and Oscar both on there, I’ll give Mr. Venedam a wash.

SMALL FORWARD: Venedam chooses a number of players over Larry Bird and, presumably, Scottie Pippen and Chris Mullin.

VENEDAM SAYS: “I’d love to add a young Bird, but this was a broken-down Larry Bird, and in 1968, I could select Elgin Baylor, John Havlicek, Billy Cunningham or Rick Barry.”

MY COUNTER: Well, you’re forcing me to do something I don’t want to do–take Bird off a team. But the rule is: The players as they were then. Bird retired when he came back from Barcelona, so, yes, he was “broken down,” and, Baylor, one of the most all-time underrated players in all of sports, would’ve been better.

It’s hard to argue with Havlicek, either. But though I loved Cunningham, the Kangaroo Kid, I don’t think he was better than Pippen, who was much more versatile, able to lock down on defense and run a team on offense. And trust me on this: Bird in a wheelchair would’ve been a better addition than Barry. Remember that this team was constructed with chemistry in mind.

If you were looking for two small forwards, then, I would go for Baylor and Pippen.

SHOOTING GUARD: Venedam selects Michael Jordan, of course, but says he can do better than Clyde Drexler.

VENEDAM SAYS: “Sure we would take Michael Jordan, but the 1968 team could have had the Logo – Jerry West—and a very young Earl Monroe. That’s a step up over Clyde Drexler.”

MY COUNTER: Well, no, Earl Monroe is not a step up over Clyde Drexler. I loved The Pearl but Clyde has it over him as an all-around player. Okay, you come strong with West, who is only one of the best players of all-time.

An interesting scenario presented, Mr. Venedam. The way I see it, you fell short in proving 1968 superior to 1992. But nobody else thought to even bring it up, so points for that.

http://www.jackmccallum.net/2012/08/06/one-mans-1968-dream-team/#.UCPa7KAluwc

Think I am with Jack on this one, that 1968 team does not necessarily overtake every player on the Dream Team sans MJ. Plus, I would give the Dream Team a definite advantage in a head to head. With Russell and Wilt being in their 30’s (most definitely past their prime, or nearly past for Wilt), it would be an interesting match-up at center. The college case would be interesting, though I agree that since Lew Alcindor/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar being CHOSEN (think he obviously would have made it had it been an open try-out) would be unlikely.

Still, just an interesting way of looking at it. Times have changed, would have been very interesting to see this team constructed. 1964 might have been even stronger, honestly. Just was a cool idea and something different. Will have to play with this idea a bit. If you look at McCallum’s comment section, Venedam does build on his ideas (though I do not think they help much, just my opinion).

Here is what I suppose Venedam’s team would look like (Would have been nice if he had written an article or stated the roster, but he either didn’t or it was not posted. Guessing he and Jack just talked about, must have been a fun debate):

C: Wilt Chamberlain (31 years old) (starter), Bill Russell (33)

PF: Willis Reed (25) (starter), Jerry Lucas (28), Elvin Hayes (22)

SF: Elgin Baylor (33) (starter), John Havlicek (28), Billy Cunningham (25, chose him over Rick Barry as Rick did not play during that season, plus was in the ABA for a number of seasons after)

SG: Jerry West (30) (starter), Earl Monroe (23)

PG: Oscar Robertson (29) (starter), Dave Bing (24) (Had just led the NBA in points scored, second in PPG behind Oscar. Lenny Wilkens was more of a passing guard and was awesome as well, just keeping the team at 12, went with the more explosive Bing, who also averaged 6.4 apg that season)

So, any thoughts? Think it would be cool to make a pro team for every Olympics since 1964, would have some pretty interesting possibilities. Agree with Jack McCallum that the Dream Team definitely stacks up to these guys, impressive statistics from back than and all. Would be an interesting match-up for sure. Had not really heard the argument from this side before, cool way of looking at the "which team was better?" debate.

 

[JoeWolf1]

 That’s a very interesting arguement and I too feel that the players of the past are not automatically not as athletic, good or skilled as the players of today.  I do disagree with him on a lot of his selections.  Especially at the guard position.  

He went to the broken down arguement a lot on the players on the 92′ squad, but then said that Wilt and Russell were not broken down despite being in the twilight of their careers and picked them over David Robinson.

He cited Russell’s 18 rpg as a reason to put him on, but failed to mention Bird averaged 20 ppg 9.6 rpg and 6.8 apg his last year in the league.  Larry Legend had some issues with injury, but hardly limped down the stretch as far as production.

Magic Johnson was also not in the twilight of his career.  He was freaking 31 and forced into retirement because of misunderstanding around a virus he contracted.  19.4 ppg 12.5 rpg 7 apg in the 91-92 season. 

Bill Russell at 33 shot 42% from the feild, but he’s not broken down, but a 31 year old Magic was as productive as EVER and he’s "OLD MAGIC" this guy is overlooking many factors to prove a point.  An interesting article, but it’s like Fox News doing a piece on Obama.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

I was more intrigued in the concept than the actual argument of who would have made the team. To me, that 1992 team would have had a number of players that challenged or made the 1968 team. See Joe, I understand your whole Russell only shooting 42% argument, but at the same time this was a time where their was no three point line to spread the floor. I also take into account the way shooting and skill set has changed since Russell’s time. If you are going to say Russell could never do what he did against modern players (more using Russell as a universal example of this argument), give Russell the benefit of possibly having better training and a more spread out situation on the court.

You take away the three point arc from Team USA this year, are they not a radically different team? Some might say that would make them even better, just have to factor in the 156 points against Nigeria though, lol. Still, definitely see what you are saying in that Venedam’s way of looking at things seems a tad narrow minded and seems to be biased towards the players he more than likely grew up watching.

The numbers are on his side, just not necessarily in the completely fair context of how the game has adapted. The average team put up 105.3 ppg on 47.2% shooting in 1992. In 1968? No team averaged fewer than 109.5. The averages were 116.6 and 44.6%. Simply put, less scoring, better shooting, fewer rebounds/possessions. Teams in 1992 on average grabbed 43.7 rpg. In 1968, that number was at 66! Obviously their were incredible rebounders back than, but to say these numbers are inflated is no understatement.

Truly the thing I found most interesting was the concept. I take Venedam’s statement with a grain of salt. Obviously Michael Jordan would make any team you put together. As would a 31 year old Magic, a beastly Charles Barkley and Karl Malone along with a number of other Dream Teamer’s at the very least competing for spots. Would be a very intriguing match-up that I honestly would give to the Dream Team. Just think this concept is possibly overlooked as their were indeed no teams like the Dream Team pre-1992. Had that 1968 team been constructed and obliterated the competition (which seems likely), this discussion could be different.

Still, would like to look back and create some of these theoretical rosters. Think that had the US sent an All-Pro team to Munich in 1972, their would be no debate over who really won the Gold Medal. That team would indeed have included Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (coming off his third season). I would not count out a 35 year old Wilt Chamberlain (who had just won Finals MVP, led the NBA in rebounding and was on a team for the ages in 1972, so might want to make sure he was on this one as well). You would still have a number of players from the 1968 team (definitely minus Bill Russell and Elgin Baylor), just think it would be interesting to hypothetically construct these USA Olympic teams that never were. I am going to do some thinking and research, come back to it. 

[aamir543Participant]

That team would’ve been great, but one potential great team could’ve been the 2004 team had all the great players decided to play.

A 24 year old T-Mac

27 year old MVP KG

25 year old Kobe

27 year old Tim Duncan

31 year old Shaq

28 year old Iverson

26 year old Paul Pierce

30 year old Jason Kidd

19 year old Lebron

28 year old Ray Allen

21 year old Amare(he was averaging 20 and 9 even then)

22 year old D-Wade or 19 year old Melo or a 26 year old Marbury.

That team would be amazing, J-Kidd and Shaq were still elite level players, and you had T-Mac, Kobe, KG, Tim Duncan, AI, Pierce and Ray Allen at their primes. I think this team vs the Dream Team is definatly a discussion.

 

[F_S]

 damn, that team is STACKED ^

[JoeWolf1]

I just thought he was quick to call players on the Dream Team over 30 "burnt out" yet Russell was somehow excused from this categorization.  I really only brought up the 42% FG because he was so quick to point out the 18 rpg, but Russell was a shell of his former self by 1968.  Chamerlain was still a beast, but I don’t see how you pick 1968 Russell over 1992 David Robinson.  I think David Robinson would have been a 22-23 rpg player in that era.

I just think this guy was trying too hard to prove a point and kind of dis-credited himself in the process.  Lenny Wilkins over John Stockton?  Lenny Wilkins had a nice career, but NEVER even made an All-NBA team in his entire career.  He was never regarded, by his peers, even the 2nd best point guard of his era and he’s in over John Stockton?  

I look forward to hearing your analysis, I’ll probably like it more than Venedam’s haha

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

What about a 1988 Dream Team? Magic and Larry in their prime with Jordan at his physical peak.
Throw in a young Patrick Ewing and a veteran Robert Parrish with David Robinson as your collegian.
Kevin McHale as a veteran power forward to go with Barkley or the Mailman at the 4.

Isiah Thomas makes the game as the backup point guard. Zeke was at his peak in the late Eighties. Add a prime Dominique
Wilkins as an athletic scorer off the bench.

Starters:

PG: Magic Johnson
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Larry Bird
PF: Charles Barkley
C: Patrick Ewing

Bench:

PG: Isiah Thomas
SG: Clyde Drexler
SF: Dominque Wilkins
PF: Karl Malone
C: Robert Parrish

Reserves:

PF: Kevin McHale
C: Kareem Abdul-Jabaar

David Robinson would be a nice addition but Kareem would bring veteran leadership and his sky hook
off the bench. This team would have a bunch of great players in their prime with some good vets like Parrish and
Kareem off the bench. This starting five might be the best ever in terms of greats at their peak with a ton
of overall depth up front.

[Memphis MadnessParticipant]

^^^

For that 1988 team you could have also gone with David Robinson as the college center, 1988 Finals MVP James Worthy (possibly the original “stretch four”), John Stockton (13.8 assists that year), a younger Chris Mullin, Moses Malone, Bill Laimbeer as a big man who could rebound, bang, and hit 3’s (basically a 7 foot Kevin Love), Joe Dumars — a great two way guard, Alvin Robertson (defensive guy who put up great stats), Michael Cooper — another defensive ace who would be a great role player for this team as well as a 3 point threat, or even Mark Eaton who averaged 3.8 blocks that year.

I think that from the late eighties to the early nineties the NBA was as loaded as ever. Probably from around 1988 (David Robinson as a rookie the next season with Kareem being in his last year. Dr. J retired after the 1987 season.) with the Celtics still doing well and the Showtime Magic one year or so past their peak, until the 1992 Dream Team (the year after that was great too with Sir Charles’ MVP season, the Bulls three peat team, and a rookie Shaq and Zo).

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

Hell if we’re talking hypotheticals I think the 1996 team could have been the best ever, unfortunately Jordan chose not to play on it:

PG John Stockton (14.7 PPG, 11.2 APG, 54 FG% and 42 3PT%)

SG Michael Jordan (still the best in the game with 30.4 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 4.3 APG, 2.2 SPG)

SF Scottie Pippen (in his prime with 19.4 PPG, 6.4 RPG, 5.9 APG)

PF Karl Malone (in his prime with 25.7 PPG, 9.8 RPG and 4.2 APG)

C Shaquille O’Neal (just before his prime, starting to dominate with 26.6 PPG, 11 RPG and 2.1 BP

BENCH

PG Gary Payton (19.3 PPG, 7.5 APG, 2.9, smack dab in the middle of his prime)

PG Jason Kidd (young and just before his prime but put up 16.6 PPG, 9.7 APG, 6.8 RPG and 2.2 SPG)

SG Reggie Miller (the best long distance shooter in the league, put up 21.1 PPG and shot 41% from downtown hitting 168 threes in the regular season)

SF Grant Hill (about to hit his prime with 20.2 PPG, 9.8 RPG and 6.6 APG as a 23 year old)

PF Tim Duncan (AI was the first pick overall and Marcus Camby won the Naismith but almost everyone agreed that TD was the top prospect in the college ranks after averaging 19.1 PPG, 12.3 RPG and 3.8 BPG as a 20 year old)

C David Robinson (25 PPG, 12.2 RPG and 3.3 BPG near the end of his prime)

C Hakeem Olajuwon ( just past his prime but still averaging 26.9 PPG, 10.9 RPG and 2.9 BPG)

This team had it all: Defense with Payton, Pippen, MJ, Kidd, TD, Hakeem and the Admiral. Youth with Shaq, Kidd, Hill and Duncan. Veteran leadership with MJ, Pippen, Stockton, Malone, Hakeem, Miller and Robinson. And the greatest group of big men to ever be assembled.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Every possible Olympic Team from 1964-88 as a hypothetical, but that team would be raw. Think Charles Barkley still has to be on it somehow though, he led the actual ’96 team in rebounding, points per game and shot 81.6% from the field. Charles had the versatility to play either forward spot internationally. Hard to do this, but I think Charles would probably be chosen over a still in college Tim Duncan. If I had to kick off a pro, would probably go with Jason Kidd (at the time, he was only 22, shooting 38% from the field. Monster numbers, though, but also was not on the actual 1996 team). That team would have been a monster, definitely would have had insane firepower and ridiculous depth up front.

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