What do you guys have? Here's mine at the moment:
Is this rookie of the year contenders or what? If you're talking purely about ability and how they'll project for the rest of their careers then Rubio has to be higher, probably 2.
this is strictly top 10 rankings as of today based on their rookie seasons, no potential for the future being taken into consideration at all.
and rubio could still be a few spots higher, but he will only play about 2/3rd's of the season so that drops him a few spots.
Either put Ricky Rubio #2 or don't put him at all because of his injury. That team is 4-17 without him way more valuable than every other rookie expect Kyrie.
i think 2/3rds of games is enough to be ranked. As for being number 2? possibly, i think the wolves falling apart has to do with lots of things on top of his injury not just him. He still is a liability shooting and inconsistent overall.
Off topic, but Rubio is definitely more important to the Wolves then Love is.
not even close.
Wow, look at the records.
w/o Love 1-4, with all four losses to playoff teams.
w/o Rubio 4-15 with a good amount of bad losses.
record without love: 1-5(the win was a 2 point home victory over the kings
record without rubio: 4-15
keep in mind the recent losing streak also invloves injury to ridnour who was rubios back up as well as 13 out of 19 games being on the road since rubio was injured
Or it's once Rubio got hurt the team went to crap without him.
im counting the game where love was injured in 8 minutes as not having him and i dont see anything significant in the records to suggest rubio is more important so not sure what you are getting atwith that
I don't know if that statistic really supports your claim that Rubio is "definitely" more important to the Wolves than Love it is. Can't we just say they're both equally important to the T-Wolves success?
I get what you're saying. I think on most teams Love would be more important, but since the T'Wolves have a plethora of really talented scorers to plug in at PF, they don't miss his 25 ppg as much.
On the other hand, they don't have another guy that can get them 10 apg, so that is missed a lot more.
just watch the two play and decide for yourself who is better and more valuble. IM guessing the majority would agree its love
I honestly don't think it's close. Every loss with Love was to a playoff team and like 7/15 losses without Rubio were against non-playoff teams. Love was the main guy last year and they had the worst record in the NBA. Throw in Rubio and a great coach and they are above .500 for awhile. This team needs Rubio more then Love, because he makes the rest of the crap around them better. This is why I consider MVP consideration for Love a joke. He isn't even more important then a rookie PG, albeit that rookie is special.
Edit: I have watched them. Plenty of games. Love is the better player, no doubt about it. But in terms of team importance, it's Rubio and it is not close.
mvp talk for love is a joke. But so is saying rubio is more important. And we brought the records in like you requested and they do nothing to support rubio as being more important.
Maybe your infatuation with Love is blinding you. You are known to be biased for him, and that's a fact. I'll make it simpler for you.
w/o Love against nonplayoff teams: 1-0
w/o Rubio against nonplayoff teams: 3-8
w/o Love against playoff teams: 0-4
w/o Rubio against playoff teams: 1-7
lol, when all else fails throw insults and blame bias. What exactly have i sais that shows bias? I could just as easily claim you are biased against him.
ill make it simpler for you
1-5 without love and the win being a 2 point win vs the kings at home. They are 1 possesion away vs a bad team from being winless without love. The record without love does nothing to support rubio this season as being more important and you are the one who brought it up
and speaking of bias, this thread has nothing to do with love yet you couldnt hold back from using it to once again crap on him
I didn't insult you. it's widely known that Lakers (especially Kobe), and UCLA players are nearly impossible to reason with you. I gave you numbers and you haven't been able to discredit them at all. You're just saying they don't count, well ok cool. Even if you count the game Love played 8 minutes, was that not a playoff team as well?
I have no need to insult you, but don't act like you aren't biased. You still think Kobe is better then LeBron do you not? How can anyone argue with you reasonably on LA or UCLA when you just say that means nothing when I give you numbers? You completely ignored that Love couldn't win &$#%#&@! without Rubio or Adelman last year as well.
Edit: lol at saying bias against Love, ask anyone how I feel about Ricky Rubio. I hated him even more coming into the draft then I did Love. So don't throw that nonsense at me.
what numbers did you give me that i have not effectively argued ? You said the records show who is better.
1 and 5= 17% winning
4 and 15= 21% winning
you can break those numbers down all you want but the end result will always be that the numbers do nothing to indicate rubio is more important then love. And thats as simple as it gets.
You're treating every game as an equal when they're not. In games they should've won, or had the best chance to win in the winning % distinctly favors Rubio.
see, you are bringing all kinds of intaninglbeles about how important the games are that are debateble. How hard did the other team play? How many other players were healthy in that game from both teams? How many games were on a back to back etc.... How about the fact the ONLY game the wolves won without love was a game at home vs one of the worst teams in the league by 2 points? If you think rubio is more important, then you have to come at a different angle then what the teams records are without rubio vs without love becasue the numbers do nothing to support either player in that scenario. Are you really arguing that going 1-5 without love shows they are better without him then rubio?
And the fact that once Rubio arrived the Wolves immediately went from a terrible team to a competitive one nearly over night. Not to mention PG's are more valuable to teams then PF's in general.
rubio as well as the improvement from love, the arrival of of an estbalished veteran coach, the arrival of solid role players like derrick williams and barea, the emergence of pekovic which has continued without rubio in the lineup. ANd when all is said and done, the team will still stink at the end of the season.
Barea? The guy who has sucked and been hurt all year? Love improvement is vastly overrated. They were hovering around .500 before Williams or Pekovic made any contributions too. Rubio and Adelman made the Wolves competitive right away, something Love could not do. Does it make him any lesser of a player? No. But Rubio is more important because he creates for everyone, Love creates for himself (despite being a nice passer).
love creates for everyone as well by drawing attention, cleaining the boards that beasley, anthony randolph and derrick williams dont grab. ANd barea doesnt suck. And love has improved. And you yourself mentioned adelmann helping the team. At the end of the day, as a basketball fan (who knows what im wathcing) the wolves biggest threat to opponents is love and thats easy to see.
I also find it interesting how the argument about love is always evolving. At first it was love sucks, the wolves are stupid for trading mayo for him, mchale needs to be fired for getting love. indiana basketball said that love in his abo&$#%#&@!e prime would be nothing more then 12 and 8 on a good team, BTPH flat out thought he sucked. Then it became, is he an all-star?, does he deserve to be on the usa national team etc..., now it has become is he an mvp candidate. The reality is that love has absolutely squashed all the previous arguments against him and raises the bar yearly for his detractors.
And i would love to be a gm vs you where we have one season to build a team(not taking into consideration the future) and you pick rubio over love right now.
First of all I've admitted when I've been wrong about Love. Second of all he shouldn't be an MVP candidate. Third of all, if Rubio does make his teams better then Love. I don't see how you don't see it. He's a PG like Nash, he elevates his teammates so much with his vision. Love doesn't do that, he's a big time scorer and a nice passer but he isn't making the guys around him better, or at least to the extent of Rubio. I don't know how you don't really see that. Nash has done it for years, Rubio is of the same mold, as is Kendall Marshall. Good PG's are going to almost always be the most important player on the team. When Love goes down, Beasley and Williams can make up for the scoring and lessen the impact. When Rubio goes down, Ridnour isn't the playmaker Rubio is, he cannot be replaced. As for that last paragraph of nonsense, I know for a fact as a GM I'd be better then you. You don't seem to value PG's or not understand their value, and you're way too high on pure scorers.
Edit: Don't take this wrong way or as a sign of me disliking you. You've been a great poster for years and I respect you immensely. But I take everything LA related you say with a grain of salt.
well the GM issue, i would absoultely love to test myself vs everyone on this site and im glad you are certain for a fact you would be better. Feel as confident as you want but im taking myself over everyone on this site. I dont underappreciate pg's at all. The only two exemples you can give me of that is me saying bryant over nash and now love over rubio. ANd i stand behind those both 100%. You want to discuss how many times i gave pg's love now?
And there is more to making your teammates better then assists and setting them up. Being a shooter who spaces the floor, being a dominant rebounder who gives the team second chances and makes up for lack of rebounding at other positions are very important to allowing your teammates to go about their business and do what they do well. ANyways, i gotta go for now. Be back later. I also repsect you as a poster.
1. The intial rankings are weak. Rubio (even accounting for time lost due to injury) easily had a bigger impact on the TWolves season than Marshon Brooks, Klay Thompson or Isaiah Thomas (even though they've performed well) did for their clubs.
2. Y2K's KLove-hate is near absurd. You appear blinded by something pushing you toward irrational when discussing Love's value. (And just for the record, I usually like your posts.) Love is putting up 26/14. Those are all-time elite numbers. If accomplishing that feat alone was not highly impressive, other great players would have done it. To say "he shouldn't be an MVP candidate" is plain stupid. No, he should not WIN the award. He shouldn't be in the top 2. But the "candidates" are always trotted out on a list of around 10 guys. On such candidate lists of top-10 most deserving players, how can you overlook a guy putting up such ridiculously impossible numbers?
Your primary anti-Love argument is that the TWolves have performed better w/o Love than w/o Rubio. And? When the team had both players, they had a rational belief that they could compete at a playoff level. When Love was out the TWolves just had to play tough for a few games w/o their star--many teams pick up the slack in those situations for a few games. When Rubio went down it was different. The team knew the season was over. Teams tend to play worse when they know their season is over. Every rational person knew the TWolves' season was over when Rubio went down. That they've seemed to lack heart makes sense.
Would (insert name of HoF leader/winner from history) have picked up the team's morale and led them to victory? Maybe. No one is claiming Love is that guy yet. But he's an elite player doing a lot with very little and besides LBJ and KD, it's hard to think of anyone that's played better this year.
I'm with llperez on this one. But this is good. A nice, healthy argument.
"Love is putting up 26/14. Those are all-time elite numbers."
Then where are the elite results? Why don't they win more if he's all-time elite?
I can admit when I'm wrong, as I've done many times. But please explain to me how he is an MVP candidate? He put up great numbers last year, was he an MVP candidate then? How about when Rubio got hurt? He put up godly numbers, BUT THEY DIDN'T WIN. You can't be an MVP when your team is more dependant on someone elses success then your own. The Timberwolves are loaded at the four, losing Love would be bad, but losing Rubio makes them nearly the same team they were last year, a team that won 17 games.
I don't see how he has a case against LBJ, Durant, healthy Rose, Chris Paul, Tony Parker, D12 and then Westbrook, Kobe and Wade will get some love no matter what. After them then sure he could top 10. But considering the MVP race usually really only consists of 4 legit candidates I don't see how he's up there. It doesn't matter if you can score and rebound a lot if you lose. There is such a thing as empty numbers.
You act like I don't think he's a great player, when I know he is. But on a team stacked at the four, don't you think it'd be easier to replace him then the only playmaker on the team? I don't like Ricky Rubio either, but he makes an amazing impact on this Wolves team. Did you know since Rubio got hurt the defense went from above average (shocking really) to one of the worst in the NBA again? Rubio impacts a game in more ways then Love does, therefore he is more important. If Love goes there goes 26 ppg. Well Beasley, Randolph, and Williams could get a nice chunk of that back plus Rubio would just be more aggressive. Losing Rubio's playmaking is not something that can be made up for.
The main thing that made Rubio so valued to the timberwolves this year was not his passing or his playmaking or vision. It was his defense. Last year the Timberwolves were dead last in the nba in defensive ppg. We gave up 107 ppg. We add Rubio to almost the exact same roster and overnight transformed into a solid defensive team. Before Rubio went down we were giving up about 95 ppg. Since Rubio got hurt we are giving up our 106.2 ppg. Thats a huge difference. Yes Rubio is more important to this year timberwolves mainly because of his defense and our pf depth. We can replace Love's production with the trio of Williams, Beasley, and Randolph. We can not replace Rubio's vision, passing, playmaking, defense, and just overall joy of playing basketball. His personality and winning mentality was contagious and brought this team closer together then every before. Love is the better player. Rubio is the more valuable player to this team.
26 points and 14 boards aren't results by themselves? Top 3 PER isn't a result? Are Ws the only results that count for PoY? Do we just coronate the top player from the team w/the most wins? Do we give it to the player who's value we believe contributes to more wins on his team than any other?--good luck proving your conclusion if this is your argument. Generally, I disagree w/these common method of selection. I'm not saying these factors should be completely ignored, but they aren't the only factors. Basketball is a team sport, but PoY is an individual award.
As I stated earlier, there is no argument for Love to be considered ahead of KD or LBJ. But when you move down your list to Kobe (who's been a terrible team player lately and his team is 3-1 w/o him) or Wade (didn't always lead his team to winning seasons pre-LBJ & Co.), Love arguments gain traction. Based on his raw production alone, I add Love to the top 5 of my PoY list because I consider it an individual performance award.
Love is not a top-5 player in the NBA, but his production this season is certainly top-5. And yes, he has been unable to carry his terrible team to many wins in his 3rd NBA season.
I never made a specific case for Kobe and Wade, just said that they will get love regardless of how they play due to their rep. It's his 4th season, but maybe that was typo on your part, either way no big deal.
"26 points and 14 boards aren't results by themselves? Top 3 PER isn't a result? Are Ws the only results that count for PoY? Do we just coronate the top player from the team w/the most wins?"
Pretty much yes. I'm not saying he hasn't had a great season. As an individual I can't even think of the last PF to put up numbers like him. But in terms of helping his team, he has not had anywhere near all-time elite results and I find that hard to argue.
I'm not sure whether you're still arguing Love vs. Rubio or just trying to make a case that Love is a good player. If it's that latter I agree. I'm not nearly as high on him as the rest of the forum, but seeing as how arguably the top three minds on the site dislike him more then I do, I feel like I've evaluated him fairly enough. If it's the former you haven't really made much of a point. Rubio made the team competitive from day one (lost to OKC by 4 I think) and had them around .500 before Pekovic became a stud and Williams got rolling. He made the one of the better defensive teams in the NBA as well.
I just think that it's harder to replace the only playmaker on your team then a star PF who has plenty of quality depth behind him. I mean Randolph has like 22 and 11 right now filling in. Wolves fans have been saying with playing time that he'd be really good and he'd be just one of three guys filling in for Love.
+1 for everyone
No love for Chandler Parsons? The guy starts on a playoff team and is putting up 9 and 5 while playing good defense.
Sorry if my language was a little too forceful previously. Your take was more reasonable that I thought and I was a bit harsh. At the end of the day we agree more than we disagree. Rubio should be #2 or #3 on this list. The MVP is really only a race between LBJ and KD.
I was never really arguing Love vs. Rubio. To me it's a wash. Neither is good enough to make them a playoff team by themselves. Together they were unlikely to last more than 5-6 games in the playoffs. I did think it was an unfair comparison though--the mentality of the team w/o Love for a few games when they saw themselves as a playoff team vs. the mentality of the team when they saw their new star out for the season. IMO if Love had a season ending injury and Rubio had stayed, a similar collapse would have occurred. But maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps they could have adjusted better to the loss of Love since they're deep @ the 4.
My main objection is the MVP "candidate" thing, which really doesn't matter I spose since no one besides LBJ/KD are truly in contention. I just disagreed w/the idea that Love wasn't even on the list since his team sucks. I think other potential contenders have similar impossibilities in their arguments for the crown: Kobe has been highly inefficient, Wade/Westbrook aren't even the best or most productive players on their teams, etc. I guess my point is that if there is a list that goes beyond KD/LBJ, Love should be on it because his production has been insane.
Overall you've made some good points and even though they initially rubbed me the wrong way, I may come around to your view after giving it a bit more thought. Night!
Can you say "Old Married Couple"? lol
Haha sometimes in my posts I seem angry when I'm really not. I guess that's just a bad habit of mine. We really do agree more then disagree. I can agree with everything you just said, and I can see your point about Love. I wasn't arguing for Westbrook, Wade and Kobe, just saying that the media would give them votes. I suppose I was a bit harsh in my words of Love's MVP candidacy, but I do not feel that he is a prime candidate, this year at least. Either way I enjoyed the debate with you.
I like llperez as a poster, and I respect hima great deal, but uhh he's not exactly my type. I am usually more interested in women...
I don't care how good of a floor general a guy is, but the fact of the matter is that a 26 and 13 big man that can shoot threes like a guard and rebound like the greats means more to a team than a rookie who put up 10 and 8 on 35% shooting. I know Yup Yup has probably watched more T-Wolves game than anyone else here, and I am perfectly aware that their freefall began when Rubio went out, but you're not convincing me htat a rookie Rubio means more to the T-Wolves than a guy that is top 5 in socring and rebounding. No way.
I can assure nbanflguy has watched far more Wolves games then I have. No point in repeating my arguments, as I've already said everything I wanted to.
Easier to replace Rubio than it is to replace Love.
Did you not read anything in the thread?
I know that Kyrie Irving is going to win the ROY and is better than Rubio.
I know that anyone that thinks Rubio is more important that Love is an idiot.
Nobody on the Wolves can consistently come close to putting up the numbers Love did.
Ridnor and Barea can score better than Rubio, and get close to this assist #s.
Tell me how Love is easier to replace than Rubio, you clown.
I know that Nbanflguy and Y2G are a couple of shower buddies from the same sorry ass town in minnesota.
Haha wow what a dick.
Let me ask you something. How many wolves games have you watched?
Anyone who has watched the games and knows anything about basketball and team chemistry knows that Rubio is more important to the Wolves this year than Love has. Yeah Ridnour and Barea can match the production of Rubio, but they can not match his defense, passing, playmaking, vision, and locker room presence. The wolves were giving up 95 ppg with Rubio. We are giving up 106.2 without him. He made this team go. Love has had a fantastic year and I am a fan of the guy, but with the depth at pf we have we can match his production with Williams, Beasley, and Randolph. Love is the better player, but Rubio is more valuable to us. Ridnour and Barea can match his offensive production, but not his intanigibles.
O and about that sorry ass town in Minnesota that we are from, It is Eden Prairie, Minnesota and was voted the top place to live in the united states.
I watched the Wolves vs Lakers game, when Rubio hurt his knee. Too bad.