[AwardedBallerParticipant]

My manager and I got in a discussion about who were the best 20 players in NBA history and we came to a disagreement but overall he said he respected my list, so I’d like to see what you guys think. This is my top 20, I’d like to know what others think. I caught lots of flack for not having Kobe Top 5 and not having Big O top 10 but ehh I did my best

1) Jordan    10) Kobe         19) Karl Malone

2) Kareem  11) Hakeem     20) Cousy

3) LeBron   12) Oscar Robertson         Next 5 (In no order): Stockton, Iverson, Moses Malone,

4) Magic     13) David Robinson           Hayes, Barkley

5) Wilt        14) Jerry West

6) Bird        15) Dr. J

7) Russell   16) Dirk

8) Shaq       17) Pippen

9) Duncan   18) Wade

 

 

 

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 You are absolutely never going to come to a consensus here, especially when you start trying to rank players who played in completely different eras. Overall, I don’t think it’s a bad list but of course I have some objections. 

1. Duncan and Kobe both need to be ranked ahead of shaq. Both were consistently better for longer and accomplished more in their careers. Shaq was superhuman in his prime but he fell off pretty fast after 2004 and the last 5 years of his career were pretty unremarkable.

2. Robinson at 13 is way too high. He was great in his prime but his prime was relatively short-lived compared to some other centers of his generation. He never won a championship as the focal point of his team and was more of role player for the 2 he did win. I’d rank Moses Malone over him.

3. If you are strictly ranking guys based on dominance in the era they played in (and I don’t see how you could really rank them any other way) than George mikan and Elgin Baylor need to be included somewhere on your list. Mikan was easily the most dominant player of his generation (even if it was a decidedly inferior era) and Baylor was probably the best forward of the 1960s and the guy who paved the way for the definition of the modern day athletic high scoring wing.

 

 

 

[AwardedBallerParticipant]

 1) First point, I agree with completely, 100% debate I’d re rank it as Duncan at 8, Kobe at 9, Shaq at 10. Great point.

2) Don’t you think thats more of a spurs thing though? Duncan was relatively a role player in the back half of his career, still productive, but a role player. If those sacrifices helped them win a championship, I can’t knock him for it. His 71 point game and his dominant stretch between 1993-1996 cannot be overlooked.

3) It’s a lot of different variables because if we’re talking just era dominance than top 5 would be Jordan, Russell and all the other members of those Celtics teams from the late 50s + Early 60s, I think I did whiff on Elgin Baylor though. But that 0-8 Finals record is hard to look past.

[AwardedBallerParticipant]

 1) First point, I agree with completely, 100% debate I’d re rank it as Duncan at 8, Kobe at 9, Shaq at 10. Great point.

2) Don’t you think thats more of a spurs thing though? Duncan was relatively a role player in the back half of his career, still productive, but a role player. If those sacrifices helped them win a championship, I can’t knock him for it. His 71 point game and his dominant stretch between 1993-1996 cannot be overlooked.

3) It’s a lot of different variables because if we’re talking just era dominance than top 5 would be Jordan, Russell and all the other members of those Celtics teams from the late 50s + Early 60s, I think I did whiff on Elgin Baylor though. But that 0-8 Finals record is hard to look past.

[AwardedBallerParticipant]

 1) First point, I agree with completely, 100% debate I’d re rank it as Duncan at 8, Kobe at 9, Shaq at 10. Great point.

2) Don’t you think thats more of a spurs thing though? Duncan was relatively a role player in the back half of his career, still productive, but a role player. If those sacrifices helped them win a championship, I can’t knock him for it. His 71 point game and his dominant stretch between 1993-1996 cannot be overlooked.

3) It’s a lot of different variables because if we’re talking just era dominance than top 5 would be Jordan, Russell and all the other members of those Celtics teams from the late 50s + Early 60s, I think I did whiff on Elgin Baylor though. But that 0-8 Finals record is hard to look past.

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 You are absolutely never going to come to a consensus here, especially when you start trying to rank players who played in completely different eras. Overall, I don’t think it’s a bad list but of course I have some objections. 

1. Duncan and Kobe both need to be ranked ahead of shaq. Both were consistently better for longer and accomplished more in their careers. Shaq was superhuman in his prime but he fell off pretty fast after 2004 and the last 5 years of his career were pretty unremarkable.

2. Robinson at 13 is way too high. He was great in his prime but his prime was relatively short-lived compared to some other centers of his generation. He never won a championship as the focal point of his team and was more of role player for the 2 he did win. I’d rank Moses Malone over him.

3. If you are strictly ranking guys based on dominance in the era they played in (and I don’t see how you could really rank them any other way) than George mikan and Elgin Baylor need to be included somewhere on your list. Mikan was easily the most dominant player of his generation (even if it was a decidedly inferior era) and Baylor was probably the best forward of the 1960s and the guy who paved the way for the definition of the modern day athletic high scoring wing.

 

 

 

[Dazzling Dunks and Basketball BloopersParticipant]

 You are absolutely never going to come to a consensus here, especially when you start trying to rank players who played in completely different eras. Overall, I don’t think it’s a bad list but of course I have some objections. 

1. Duncan and Kobe both need to be ranked ahead of shaq. Both were consistently better for longer and accomplished more in their careers. Shaq was superhuman in his prime but he fell off pretty fast after 2004 and the last 5 years of his career were pretty unremarkable.

2. Robinson at 13 is way too high. He was great in his prime but his prime was relatively short-lived compared to some other centers of his generation. He never won a championship as the focal point of his team and was more of role player for the 2 he did win. I’d rank Moses Malone over him.

3. If you are strictly ranking guys based on dominance in the era they played in (and I don’t see how you could really rank them any other way) than George mikan and Elgin Baylor need to be included somewhere on your list. Mikan was easily the most dominant player of his generation (even if it was a decidedly inferior era) and Baylor was probably the best forward of the 1960s and the guy who paved the way for the definition of the modern day athletic high scoring wing.

 

 

 

[Bankroll PJParticipant]

 Maybe you think he’s an asshole ore just don’t like him, but Scottie Pippen was never a better player than Charles Barkley, and he definitely isn’t better than Karl Malone. You can talk about Pippen’s rings as justification for a higher ranking but that’s not a good enough argument since Pippen was never a finals MVP or leader on those teams.  

[AwardedBallerParticipant]

There’s not really any players I dislike unless as a person they’re just awful, My reasoning with Pippen over Barkley is because I really feel as if Michael wouldn’t have 6 without Pippen, I just think they needed each other. Barkley, Malone and other clear all-time greats were the hardest to rank because the consideration of how important rings are. For example give Barkley two rings and I think it moves him Top 10. Same with Iverson, so many great players of so many diff generations it’s so hard.

[AwardedBallerParticipant]

There’s not really any players I dislike unless as a person they’re just awful, My reasoning with Pippen over Barkley is because I really feel as if Michael wouldn’t have 6 without Pippen, I just think they needed each other. Barkley, Malone and other clear all-time greats were the hardest to rank because the consideration of how important rings are. For example give Barkley two rings and I think it moves him Top 10. Same with Iverson, so many great players of so many diff generations it’s so hard.

[AwardedBallerParticipant]

There’s not really any players I dislike unless as a person they’re just awful, My reasoning with Pippen over Barkley is because I really feel as if Michael wouldn’t have 6 without Pippen, I just think they needed each other. Barkley, Malone and other clear all-time greats were the hardest to rank because the consideration of how important rings are. For example give Barkley two rings and I think it moves him Top 10. Same with Iverson, so many great players of so many diff generations it’s so hard.

[Ahkasi ClayParticipant]

 Pippen was 2nd in the mvp voteing when Jordan left, he also took that bulls team to the ECF. I have Pippen ahead of players like Dr. J, Kobe, and Marovich on my personal top #25

[Bankroll PJParticipant]

 Maybe you think he’s an asshole ore just don’t like him, but Scottie Pippen was never a better player than Charles Barkley, and he definitely isn’t better than Karl Malone. You can talk about Pippen’s rings as justification for a higher ranking but that’s not a good enough argument since Pippen was never a finals MVP or leader on those teams.  

[Bankroll PJParticipant]

 Maybe you think he’s an asshole ore just don’t like him, but Scottie Pippen was never a better player than Charles Barkley, and he definitely isn’t better than Karl Malone. You can talk about Pippen’s rings as justification for a higher ranking but that’s not a good enough argument since Pippen was never a finals MVP or leader on those teams.  

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

The big reason I have a problem with Pippen so high, is that I think Havlicek should be higher than him. Like Pippen he played SF, could score, pass, rebound and is one of the greatest defenders of all time. Also like Pippen he won alot of championships. However Havlicek had a far lengthier prime with better individual accomplishments; while Pippen made 5 All-NBA first or second teams and 7 All-Star games, Hondo made 11 All-NBA first or second teams and 13 All-Star games. Also while Pippen played second fiddle to MJ for all six of his chips, Hondo was the best player on the Celtics during the ’74 title run and was arguably just as valuable as Russell in ’69.

I also rate Rick Barry alot higher than many others out there, but IMO he was just as good as Dr J just not as gifted athletically. If he hadn’t played four years of his prime in the ABA and lost another of his prime years to a contract dispute I strongly feel that he would be in consideration for top 10. He was a All-NBA or All-ABA first team selection 9 times (probably would have been 10 if hadn’t been forced to sit out 1968).

I also think Moses, Baylor, Isiah Thomas and Bob Petit should be on there (at least in the honorable mentions part) and that there is too much of a bias in favour of modern players. Yes the modern players have more strength, athleticism and have built on the skill set pioneered by the earlier so on the whole they would be better overall. But if you choose to include guys like West or Robertson then those other guys deserve to be ranked too, especially over someone like Iverson. 

But it’s all opinion anyway so I have no real problems with the list, just a few things I disagree with. 

 

 

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

The big reason I have a problem with Pippen so high, is that I think Havlicek should be higher than him. Like Pippen he played SF, could score, pass, rebound and is one of the greatest defenders of all time. Also like Pippen he won alot of championships. However Havlicek had a far lengthier prime with better individual accomplishments; while Pippen made 5 All-NBA first or second teams and 7 All-Star games, Hondo made 11 All-NBA first or second teams and 13 All-Star games. Also while Pippen played second fiddle to MJ for all six of his chips, Hondo was the best player on the Celtics during the ’74 title run and was arguably just as valuable as Russell in ’69.

I also rate Rick Barry alot higher than many others out there, but IMO he was just as good as Dr J just not as gifted athletically. If he hadn’t played four years of his prime in the ABA and lost another of his prime years to a contract dispute I strongly feel that he would be in consideration for top 10. He was a All-NBA or All-ABA first team selection 9 times (probably would have been 10 if hadn’t been forced to sit out 1968).

I also think Moses, Baylor, Isiah Thomas and Bob Petit should be on there (at least in the honorable mentions part) and that there is too much of a bias in favour of modern players. Yes the modern players have more strength, athleticism and have built on the skill set pioneered by the earlier so on the whole they would be better overall. But if you choose to include guys like West or Robertson then those other guys deserve to be ranked too, especially over someone like Iverson. 

But it’s all opinion anyway so I have no real problems with the list, just a few things I disagree with. 

 

 

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

The big reason I have a problem with Pippen so high, is that I think Havlicek should be higher than him. Like Pippen he played SF, could score, pass, rebound and is one of the greatest defenders of all time. Also like Pippen he won alot of championships. However Havlicek had a far lengthier prime with better individual accomplishments; while Pippen made 5 All-NBA first or second teams and 7 All-Star games, Hondo made 11 All-NBA first or second teams and 13 All-Star games. Also while Pippen played second fiddle to MJ for all six of his chips, Hondo was the best player on the Celtics during the ’74 title run and was arguably just as valuable as Russell in ’69.

I also rate Rick Barry alot higher than many others out there, but IMO he was just as good as Dr J just not as gifted athletically. If he hadn’t played four years of his prime in the ABA and lost another of his prime years to a contract dispute I strongly feel that he would be in consideration for top 10. He was a All-NBA or All-ABA first team selection 9 times (probably would have been 10 if hadn’t been forced to sit out 1968).

I also think Moses, Baylor, Isiah Thomas and Bob Petit should be on there (at least in the honorable mentions part) and that there is too much of a bias in favour of modern players. Yes the modern players have more strength, athleticism and have built on the skill set pioneered by the earlier so on the whole they would be better overall. But if you choose to include guys like West or Robertson then those other guys deserve to be ranked too, especially over someone like Iverson. 

But it’s all opinion anyway so I have no real problems with the list, just a few things I disagree with. 

 

 

[TRC1991Participant]

Moses Malone is brutally under-ranked…He was a 3x MVP, 12x all-star and 1x champion with career averages of 21 and 12

[Ahkasi ClayParticipant]

I feel old, The first pro game I ever went to was to watch Moses Malone in Utah.   

[TRC1991Participant]

Moses Malone is brutally under-ranked…He was a 3x MVP, 12x all-star and 1x champion with career averages of 21 and 12

[TRC1991Participant]

Moses Malone is brutally under-ranked…He was a 3x MVP, 12x all-star and 1x champion with career averages of 21 and 12

[goneParticipant]

 Duncan is the best PF of alltime and 2nd best center next to Kareem, he is top 5.  

[holefillers1Participant]

 Tim Duncan was carried by HOFers the last 10years of his career.  Shaq is better, hell prime David Robinson would school Dincan. His longevity and rings are why he is so high on list.  Pure talent Barkley is also better.  Lastly, any list that doesn’t start with Wilt is a waste of energy.  

[ZachAttackParticipant]

You really think Wilt is the GOAT? I’d like to hear your explanation for that. If you base it purely on stats than yeah, he could be considered the GOAT, but why do you think he is the GOAT?

[holefillers1Participant]

 He dominated everyone in his era. Like no other. 

[goneParticipant]

 Duncan is the best PF of alltime and 2nd best center next to Kareem, he is top 5.  

[MorseWillParticipant]

 Likely to get negged and disagreed with, but anybody who thinks Bill Russell would score on Shaq and stop shaq in the current era either didn’t watch shaq or didn’t watch Bill Russell. No disrespect to his leadership and team greatness, and I know it’s hard to converge different eras but at 6’9 no way I would take him ahead of Shaq or Hakeem. Put Shaq or Hakeem in that era and you have a far more dominant player… Their run in the 60’s was a great Dynasty but that doesn’t sway my individual talent greatness list…

Just as Bob Cousy or Havlicek couldn’t guard the great guards (Curry, Westbrook) or Wings (Durant, James) I believe Russell wouldn’t be the two way player in this era to warrant ahead of those 7’1 beast of Centers in the last couple eras. No disrespect meant, just how I see it…

[TheWhiteLionParticipant]

 I agree that russell wouldnt b able to stop shaq. But we arent just talking skill with russell. He was an innovator for the game. He was one of the first to play amazin defense with blocking shots and just his leadership to help the celtics win 11 nba championships! He made the game better for his time and for the future. If it werent for him defense and blocking wouldnt be as common as it is today and for that he changed the game so much. How did shaq change the game for the future? He didnt. He was just a beast player following in others footsteps not making his own

[MorseWillParticipant]

 Those are good points. I agree, however my main point is if we’re starting a team today and I have the 5th pick and Shaq and Bill Russell are on the board I’m taking Shaq as my anchor. Automatic double teams, scored 29ppg as a second year player with his quickness and power, and then dominated for years. 

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

A few things about Bill Russell: I think many modern fans don’t understand what a gifted athlete he was.

He was 6′ 9.5” barefoot, which with today’s measurements would be listed at 6’11". He was about 228 lbs in his prime but we’re talking about an era with no weight training or dietary supplements (not to mention an era where stamina was more important for big men since he played far more minutes at a much faster pace than centers today have to). Anybody who has trained with weights knows that someone with Russell’s frame would probably be able to add at least 20lbs of muscle with personal trainers today.

He was also a terrific track athlete. He ran 400m in university and did it in 49.6 seconds. He was also a world class high jumper, in 1956 he was ranked as the seventh best in the world. 

If I try to compare him to modern era centers this is probably the best comparison I can come up with.

Prime Dwight Howard in terms of rebounding and ability to get up and down the court.

Prime Alonzo Mourning in terms of intensity, shot blocking ability and help defense. 

Ben Wallace in terms of physicality, man to man D and overall defensive awareness, 

Joakim Noah in terms of passing and ability to get under the skin of players he guards.

And all the players I just named are the same height as Russell (in Wallace’s case shorter).

Russell’s biggest weakness was scoring but he averaged a very solid 14.1 PPG for his career and averaged 18.9 PPG at his peak. His FG% might be low by today’s standard but it was on par with most of the big men in the league in the 60s. 

I’m not going to fault you for putting Shaq above him, but I am absolutely convinced that if Russell had grown up and trained in this era he would have dominated as well. 

On the whole though, if we’re ranking great players throughout history all we can really do though is rate them based on how they dominated their own era. Otherwise the list would just be guys from the late 80s (maybe even 90s) and that wouldn’t be quite as interesting. 

[ItsVictorOladipoParticipant]

 edit: I meant 15.1 PPG for his career, not 14.1

[MorseWillParticipant]

 Likely to get negged and disagreed with, but anybody who thinks Bill Russell would score on Shaq and stop shaq in the current era either didn’t watch shaq or didn’t watch Bill Russell. No disrespect to his leadership and team greatness, and I know it’s hard to converge different eras but at 6’9 no way I would take him ahead of Shaq or Hakeem. Put Shaq or Hakeem in that era and you have a far more dominant player… Their run in the 60’s was a great Dynasty but that doesn’t sway my individual talent greatness list…

Just as Bob Cousy or Havlicek couldn’t guard the great guards (Curry, Westbrook) or Wings (Durant, James) I believe Russell wouldn’t be the two way player in this era to warrant ahead of those 7’1 beast of Centers in the last couple eras. No disrespect meant, just how I see it…

[r377Participant]

I would take Bird and Magic over Lebron

[Author]

Posts