[surveParticipant]

 I get so sick of hearing about a player being undersized.  There is no such thing.  The only time this applies is when a player potentially becomes less than expected.  IF the player is a good player however, you dont hear that talk.  Every since Jordan and Drexler came in the league, SG’s under 6’6" have been considered "undersized".  Thats ridiculous….especially in the light of the fact that we have had plenty good guards under that height during and after.  Is Dwayne Wade and undersized SG?  I dont see how.  He is a great defender and one of the top shot blocking and rebounding guards to play the game….but he probably isnt even 6’4".

I dont hear much talk of Ty Lawson being undersized.

Anything under 6’10" is undersized for a PF, yet Dennis Rodman and Kevin Love are both around 6’8" or a shade under.

How many years did Muggsy Bogues play in the league?

I dont know what the average height of PG’s is right now but I would guess around 6’3", yet some of the best PG’s are shorter than that.  Paul and Rondo as examples.

Everyone says Al Horford is a PF who is playing C.  Why? Because he is 6’10"?  Horford is a Center, and probably always will be.

I for one do not use this term.  If I have to give an assessment of a player in reference to his height, I may use the words "below average for said position".  I will not use the words undersized because there is no such thing to me, either you can play or you cant.

 

[HaleParticipant]

To be fair, Lawson and Wade are both extraordinary athletes and Wade has a huge wingspan. I also think that Horford is indeed a PF and not a C. 

I just think people don’t understand what undersized is. 6′-6’1 isn’t undersized for a PG. 6’5 isn’t undersized for a SG. Most PF’s are only 6’8 or 6’9. Most centers aren’t 7′ tall.

 

[SpacegrassParticipant]

Tell us how you really feel  , whether you say below average size or undersized it’s the same thing.  The most important thing even more than height is wingspan as the previous poster mentioned about Wade.  Wingspan is the only thing that concerns me going forward for a guy like Cody Zeller.  Where it is one of the biggest reasons some guys are successful , look at DeJuan Blair.

[acantareParticipant]

some players are in fact undersized for a given position. To me under 6’1 in shoes at Pg, Under 6’5 at SG, under 6’6 at SF, Under 6’8 at PF, and under 6’10 at center classifly you as undersized. There are some players like D Wade who really can’t be considered undersized do to there abnormal length.

During the draft process to say a player is undersized is to simlpy make an observation. However many players are highly productive while being undersized at there given postition.

[Wahoo757Participant]

I don’t understate why you think that people equate size to basketball ability. Dwyane Wade is undersized, Dennis Rodman was undersized, Muggsy Bogues was undersized, but that has nothing to do with their ability. They’re all really fierce competitors and have a good amount of ability to compensate for their lack of size. We all know they’re undersized, we all know they’re good. A player can be both undersized and a very good player, I don’t see how this can ‘bother’ you.

[The Scare Crow RisesParticipant]

NBA DRAFT PROSPECTS…when you’re in the league and have an Elite NBA skill terms like tweener get thrown out the window

Is Jason Terry an undersized tweenaer??? No he’s just a great combo guard best used off the bench…Can he start at Pg or Sg??? Yes, but most teams won’t because of his size/age/skillset

I think most terms get thrown around when players are going through the NBA evaluation process, most guys shake those labels when the produce, Al Horford and Al Jefferson aren’t undersized Centers are they??? They can more than hold their own against most Centers, the Popular Vote for best Center in The NBA is Dwight Howard and he’s only 6’10 maybe 6’11

Chris Paul is the best Pg and he’s 6’1 or 6’2 at best…

The best Sg’s after Kobe Bryant are as followed D.Wade(6’4) Joe Johnson(6’7) James Harden(6’5) Monta Ellis(6’3) Eric Gordon(6’3) Tyreke Evans(6’6)Evan Turner(6’7)

Kevin Love is the best Pf in the NBA and he’s only 6’9 tops(in shoes) 

[surveParticipant]

It bothers me because its a double standard.  When people say undersized in reference to a player, what do they mean?  They usually only apply this to a person who does not play up to expectations.  If they are not a good frontcourt rebounder, then they say they are undersized for their position.  Yet if its Love or Rodman, you dont hear that talk.  If its a guard who isnt as successful creating his shot or defending taller guards they say that, but if he doesnt have those problems, its not a matter of topic.  How do you figure that Wade is undersized?  He can do everything most players cant at his position, whether they are taller than him or not.

My point is, a guy like Wade can enter the draft and scouts want to make him a PG because they say he is undersized for the 2.  He gets in the league and doesnt have to play PG and becomes a successful SG.  All that undersized talk goes out the window then.

Undersized does not mean the same thing as below average in height in NBA terminology.  Undersized emplies that one will not be able to play said position effectively.  Below average is just a statistical measure, nothing more.

If Terrance Jones measures to be less than 6’8" then the scouting report will be that he is undersized for PF, emplying he may have a hard time excelling at that position.  The truth is, he may be below the current PF height average, but he may turn out to be a very good PF.

[HitsterParticipant]

 For the sake of an inch in height, I can never understand how some guys can be undersized and others not, there were genuine undersized guys like Ben Wallace and Charles Barkley but you were maybe talking 3 or 4 ins there and on the backcourt AI was undersized but all the 3 above were almost one offs.

I consider wingspan as much as height, one guy could be 2 ins shorter but have an equal or greater wingspan than another guy.

[surveParticipant]

 On a recent thread people were saying how OJ Mayo is undersized.  When he was avg 18ppg I didnt hear that talk, but now that he has struggled more in the Grizz system, here comes the undersized talk again.  Reke was drafted as a PG-SG.  No one said he was undersized.  They said he had great size.  Well now he is playing a lot at SF.  Had he been drafted as a SF, the jibber-jabber wouldve been that he is undersized…and he will have to be a SG.  Thats all I am saying is its a double standard.  Reke is obviously not undersized or they would keep him in the backcourt and start one of the taller longer players at SF.   I was a Joe Dumars fan and I dont remember people saying he was undersized…and damn near everybody he had to guard was taller than him.  Yet he was a top defender at the SG position.  I just dont subscribe to that notion of a player being undersized.  Either you can play or you cant….but when you cant, undersized becomes the usual scapegoat.

[omphalosParticipant]

Size is so important because the game of basketball is played on both ends, and defense wins championships. While you can compensate for lack of size with talent, in the dying moments of a game, if you simply cannot defend your player reliably, you will cost your team.

Look at Blake Griffin as an example, he has short arms and is only average size for a PF at 6’9, and despite all the amazing things he can do offensively through skill, he simply doesn’t have the length to guard PFs in the NBA effectively, and the Clippers won game 7 because VDN had the courage to sit him on the bench and give proven defenders Martin and Evans his minutes, because in the 4th quarter, great teams don’t need every position to score, but they need every position to defend.

The same can be said of Evan Turner, even though he has great size at 6’7, his length is poor and he really struggles to contest shots or take guys out of their rhythm as a result.

Before you starting throwing names like Rodman at me as an undersized guy who could defend, his freakish wingspan and energy allowed him to be a great defensive player.

This came up a little while ago and I checked the rosters of the past decade’s NBA champions, and wouldn’t you believe it, there were only a select few undersized players starting for those teams. A player might have great individual success as an undersized player (think Carlos Boozer), but team success rarely follows.

[Wahoo757Participant]

So we can’t say Chuck Hayes is undersized for being a 6’5 center?

[surveParticipant]

 something else I just thought about….I had this argument with someone recently….they always call me short.  (I am 5’10" 1/2 barefoot) On my DL, they list me as 5’10". (I dont think they put halves in my state)  

This person for years has been calling me short.  I say…with my Tims on, I am 6′ tall.  How is that short.  They say the avg height for a US Male is 6′. (this was some years ago) So I am "short" by U.S. standards?  Even though I am 6′ in some shoes?  Or a person who is 5’11" 1/2 barefoot is short?  I just couldnt go with that.  

Recently I checked and the avg U.S. male height is 5’10" (all males, race not withstanding)

So I told them to never call me short again!  I am officially tall by U.S. averages.

My point is, its a silly perception.  My height wont change, but U.S. averages will.  That will determine whether I am tall or short.  At the end of the day, it dont mean chit.  If I go to another country, I could be a giant or a midget.  Its all about your peers.

All this to say 6’10" doesnt make a person ideal PF size and 6’9" makes them undersized….hence the obsession in recent times with the actual LENGHT of a player.  Still, the height is used to describe a player as tall or short for said position.

[surveParticipant]

 if Chuck Hayes can stay on the court and defend guys like Bynum, I dont see how saying undersized matters.  Thats my point.  His being below the average height for a center has not relegated him to the bench.  If thats the case, Hayes is undersized for a SF….but which position can he play best?  Is he a legit starter or 6th man at least?  IF so, his size has not been enough of a liability to where he can truly be exploited for it.

If you want to say it thats fine.  My problem is, if a player sucks, and he happens to be below current height average at his position, all of a sudden that becomes the reason for him sucking. 

[surveParticipant]

 I was only speaking in terms of what is deemed as undersized in height.  In mock drafts and assessments…..when someone says undersized they are not talking about length.  Neither am I.  I understand how length affects the game.  I am talking about how a player may be considered undersized because he is 6’3" shooting guard or what have you.  That has nothing to do with length.  If Reggie Jackson was drafted as a SG he would be considered undersized….would he not?  Yet he has like a 7′ wingspan.  Undersized by NBA standards….but above average length.

[JoeWolf1]

I’m with surve on this one.  Jared Sullinger and Thomas Robinson are not undersized because their wingspans are both over 7′ and both are already stronger than some NBA PFs.  That is one aspect of their physical makeup that is undersized, the fact that they may be 6’8” ( we don’t even know yet) doesn’t make them undersized.

I think the cut off for being undersized is

6’9” center

6’7” power forward

6’3” shooting guard

6′ point guard

The NBA is actually shorter than it was 20 years ago, yet the "ideal" height per position is considerably higher than it was 20 years ago.  Not because players are getting taller (they’re not) but that scouts are so focused on what is "ideal" that they keep raising the standards.

[surveParticipant]

 The scouts know what they are doing and they gather as much info as they can.  I just hate when some of these labels get thrown around….most of the time irresponsibly.

On this site, it says that Austin Rivers has the size to play SG, then turns around and says that Doron Lamb is undersized for an NBA SG.   When most people mention Doron Lamb they say he is undersized, yet Jeremy Lamb has great size.  I think Doron is taller than Rivers and maybe longer.  He is not far off from Jeremy either.

[surveParticipant]

there ya go, couldnt have said it better myself

"The NBA is actually shorter than it was 20 years ago, yet the "ideal" height per position is considerably higher than it was 20 years ago. Not because players are getting taller (they’re not) but that scouts are so focused on what is "ideal" that they keep raising the standards." 

so at the end of the day, it dont mean a hill of beans.  its just mumbo jumbo.  perception is reality and this is the new reality.

They were talking about Roy Hibbert on the game the other day and talking about how he is so highly ranked as a center because there are no "true/pure centers" anymore.  Really, this is in reference to how Hibbert plays…then low and behold they started talking about his height.

[slash787Participant]

 I’ll take the "undersized" Dwight Howard over the "protypical center" Roy Hibbert 11 times out of 10.  I hate when players are referred to as undersized.  If you can play well who cares how tall you are.  

[FastAndFuriousParticipant]

To me long as you can play and get the job done it shouldn’t matter about size, it’s a lot of big ass dudes who freakin suck at ball and it’s alot of lil dudes or undersized dudes who are good but get overlooked because they’re small, if you can play and are consistent I don’t think it should matter.

[MalcolmxParticipant]

 How tall you are does not measure the size of your game. Ty Lawson and Chris Paul have shown that this post season.

[surveParticipant]

but you beat me to it

"I’ll take the "undersized" Dwight Howard over the "protypical center" Roy Hibbert 11 times out of 10. I hate when players are referred to as undersized. If you can play well who cares how tall you are."

this is what I am talking about.  to me, there is no such thing as undersized.  Howard is still the best center in the league but there are plenty that are taller than him.

 

[surveParticipant]

 pre-draft measurements below

Dwight Howard

1. Height w/o shoes: 6’9”

2. Height w/ shoes: 6’10.25”

3. Wingspan: 7’4.5”

Kevin Love

1. Height w/o shoes: 6-7 ¾
2. Height w/ shoes: 6-9 ½
3. Wingspan: 6-11 ¼

Dwayne Wade

1. Height w/o shoes: 6-3 ¾
2. Height w shoes: 6-4 ¾
3. Wingspan: 6-10 ¾

Chris Paul

1. Height w/o shoes: 5-11 ¾
2. Height w shoes: 6-1
3. Wingspan: 6-4 ¼

 

These are basically the best players at their positions, but no less than 2nd or 3rd.  According to draft standards, ALL of these players are "undersized"!  The only position I didnt list is SF because that is usually the position that most of the top player have the "ideal size" for, such as Lebron, KD, and Melo.  So I just dont see how you guys can get stuck on semantics and insist that these guys are undersized.  What makes them undersized for their positions???

There are plenty PF that are taller than Howard, there are SF’s taller than Love, there are PG’s that are taller than Wade and as for PG’s….Paul is on the lower end of the scale when averaging his height against other NBA PGs.  In fact, there are only two other PG’s who could even be considered to be better that Paul who are actually taller than him….thats Rose and D-Will….

I will say it again, I just dont subscribe to the theory of one being undersized.  If they cant play well at a particular position, usually its because they arent good enough.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Dwight Howard and Kevin Love may not be the exact prototypical height, but they both have other things going for them. Dwight has monster shoulders and a above prototypical wing span. Kevin is just a big, strong kid, always has been. Kevin lacks prototype length for a SF, but has prototypical standing reach. Also, his skill set and court sense has been elite forever. At the worst he was going to be a solid NBA PF.

I think saying that "no one is undersized because some of the best players lack prototypical size" is just not true. Size can definitely matter. Yes, Charles Barkley was fantastic. He worked his butt off as a 6’4 (or 6’6, whatever people say) PF. He also was incredibly strong and athletic, plus had a very wide base. That certainly did not hurt. Also, one will notice he never led his team to a title. He was not the only reason behind this, but it is still a fact. Michael Jordan was of course his usual self, but did having the length of Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant hurt his cause?

Size does not always matter, but it seems to have been a factor. Defense and rebounding tend to win championships. The guys who tend to do this the best usually have something working for them. Dennis Rodman was maybe "undersized", but was one of the most well conditioned players in the league. He had long arms that I am sure helped him guard taller players and be on their level. Guys who tend to rebound well tend to be either long or strong. The second helps your cause immensely.

I really think we are past just flat out saying a player is undersized. You have to look at numerous factors beyond pure height now. Dwyane Wade has incredibly long arms (so does Shabazz Muhammad, for that matter). You look at athleticism, strength and skill set still matters a great deal. Here are what your examples seemed to have on their side beyond being less than maybe typical height:

• Ty Lawson: is a speed demon. Very strong, pressures the ball and has always been quite skilled, not to mention a fantastic athlete.
• Muggsy Bogues: would pressure the ball all the way up the floor. He was low to the ground and used that as leverage. Had massive legs, was incredibly fast/quick. Still was not a championship starting PG, though.
• Kevin Love/Dennis Rodman: Both strong and both knew where to be on the floor. Use their frames incredibly well to create space for themselves and box out. Not everyone has the strength to be these guys, obviously. Instincts may play a part as well, but I think people seeing both as "undersized" need to look a little deeper.
• Chris Paul: skill set is incredible. Amazing instincts and he may not be a drop dead spectacular athlete, but he is a DAMN good one. The guy is great at seeing the floor, changing direction and changing speed.
• Rajon Rondo: have you seen this kids arms? Do not think most ever considered him "undersized" by any stretch of the imagination. Maybe not incredibly strong, but his height was never much of an issue to people I believe. His shooting acumen and fear of his attitude much more so. Still, everyone knew he was aggressive, fast and a great rebounder for his size.
• Al Horford: You know who does not want to be a center? Al Horford. Not as much coaches or fans. Pretty sure he would love to not have to go up against the big guys. That is why guys who actually have prototypical center length like Kevin Garnett, Chris Bosh and LaMarcus Aldridge try to avoid playing 5 for as long as they can. It is tiring defensively to guard some of these huge bodies. PF gives you more freedom and tends to give a guy like Al Horford more of a size advantage than he would have otherwise. He can play center, but he wants to play PF. Am pretty sure that is the case.

In the play-offs, teams tend to prey on the weaknesses of other teams. Size has always been one of the better ways of doing this. Speed is another, or maybe over powering the other team. Just think that just about every champion has benefited from using their strengths as a team, usually with better defense and rebounding than ones opponent. Still, the oldest trick in the book is to have a bigger, faster or stronger player take complete advantage of ones match-up. It happens all of the time and is still one of the key factors in why one team wins a title and their opponent in the Finals does not.

[BA30Participant]

I think that almost all the points here are valid. The term undersized should not be over-utilized.  The key to certain players being able to overcome their height (if it is below average) is the wingspan. Eric Gordon and D-Wade are perfect examples of that. You have to use a combination of height and wingspan to say to me a player is average, below average or above average SIZE for their NBA position.

[surveParticipant]

 I think you are missing my point….the term undersized in today’s terms are solely in reference to height ONLY.

nobody looks at a guy who is 6’6" and plays PF and says he is a "big kid" so he will be fine at PF.

simple example, the biggest knock on Thomas Robinson right now is that he is undersized for an NBA PF.  That is the only point I am trying to get across here.  Robinson may have other things going for him as you say like Howard or Love that could make him into a star into the league.  However, on draft night, his strengths will be listed as "good motor", "athletic", "heart", etc….listed among his weaknesses will be that he is undersized for an NBA PF.

we dont have to go back on this forum but a week to find posts saying "if such and such measures at yada ya (height) then he will likely rise to or fall to x position"

I did not say size didnt matter.  I didnt say others can make up for like of size by doing other things well.  I merely said that undersized is a misnomer.

In boxing, size differentials exist…even in the same weight class.   If a fighter is at 147 and everyone he faces is physically too strong for him, then yes, he is undersized…and in some instances, that fighter may move down to 140 where no one has a size advantage over him.   In boxing you can be the same weight but theoretically a different size.  Does that mean one is undersized for a weight class?  No!  My point is, you only hear this if an athlete is NOT successful or projected to be so.

Manny Pacquaio won his first championship Flyweight.  Had you have said back then before anyone knew of him that he would beat guys like Antonio Margarito, who fought most of their careers at 147 or higher, people wouldve said you were on crack.  Now, there is a cutoff point to where fighters will simple be too big for Pacquaio, like 160lbs for instance.  If he is unsuccessful there, then and only then will be be considered undersized….as of right now, no one is saying he is too small anymore.

[surveParticipant]

 Weaknesses: Undersized both in height (6’8) and weight (225 lbs) to play the 4 position at the NBA level (Kenneth Faried)

thats what his draft profile reads on this site.  it mentions nothing about his wingspan or length.

my point is, we just take things and run with them.  just because a guy is under 6’9" doesnt mean he is undersized.

here are some other goodies….

Weaknesses: Lawson lacks size and athleticism for the PG position at the next level (Ty Lawson)

Weaknesses: At 6-4 he is an undersized SG and does not have a great wingspan to make up for it (Marcus Thornton)

Strengths: Rivers is a 6’4 guard with enough size and length (6’7 wingspan) to function as both a PG and a SG (Austin Rivers)

Weaknesses: He is a bit undersized for the post, but more importantly his body is very frail (Taj Gibson)

Weaknesses: Despite his ability to score the rock, the fact remains that he’s caught between positions … He lacks the playmaking ability (1.6 assists as fresh, 2.8 as soph) to handle the point guard spot full time, and the size/strength to effectively defend NBA two’s Notes: Measured 6’5 (in shoes) 204 lbs, with a 6’7 wingspan at the 2011 Kevin Durant Skills Academy. (Doron Lamb)

Weaknesses: At 6-6.5 is severely undersized at the post position although his 7-foot-3 wingspan allows him to play a few inches bigger … (Dejuan Blair)

Weaknesses: At 6’ 8’’ Hansbrough lacks ideal size for the NBA PF position  (Tyler Hansbrough) [ I actually prefer the way this is worded by using the term "ideal size" as opposed to saying he is undersized]

Weaknesses: An undersized shooting guard, Bradley’s biggest obstacle will be his inability to make plays for others (Avery Bradley)

Weaknesses: At 6’3 he is undersized for a SG and he lacks the extreme quickness and skills required to play the lead guard position (Avery Bradley again)

if you notice, while they do say that length allows these player to play "bigger" nearly every "undersized" mention is in reference to the player’s height.

I am smh on how Rivers has the size to play SG and Doron Lamb doesnt though.

 

[Author]

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