[valentine]

Hardly anyone watches Utah Games. I watch them all. Most people watch them when they play their own team. 

I saw a comment in a previous thread stating that Rudy Gobert is the future star of Utah.

People who dont watch Utah think this. He is already 23..so hes almost the same age as Favors…who is a better player than Gobert.

Riddle me this… When was a high level defender/below average offensive player EVER the star of their team. They are excellent Role Players. Mutumbo, Rodman, Ben Wallace…all great role players. Never the star…Gobert is a lesser player than these guys. He has no offensive skill except dunking off easy passes.

When Gobert went into the starting lineup he provided great defense…but offense strugggled majorly. 

He will be a career starter..but make no mistake. Rudy Gobert is less talented than Favors, Hayward and Exum. He will never be the star of a team because he only contributes on one side of the floor.

The Jazz rennaissance last season was only partly due to Gobert. Hes currently massively over rated.

His hype is coming at the expense of other up n coming team mates.

And this is coming from a Jazz fan.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JR RyderParticipant]

I dont think he will ever be his team’s best player, but hes certainly one of if not the most important player on his team. Center his size and his ability to anchor a defense is just as important as having a superstar scorer on a winning team (ex. Mavs championship team, Nowitzki was their best player, but Chandler was just as important).

Center position is usually the position that takes the most time to fully develop, which is why people are so high in Gobbert because he has not tapped into his full potential.

[Rip255]

 If anything, hes the ultimate third wheel. He can absolutely help you win Championships.

But his value is significantly reduced if hes not paired with flat-out-ballers on the offensive end.

And how much value can someone have if theyre so reliant on having Someone to pick up the slack on offense.

I don’t like having players you have to ‘hide’ on either end. Gobert doesnt escape criticism just because everyone likes him.

Zach Lowe over-uses terms like ‘easy to hide on defense’ etc. Maybe ESPN ‘hides’ him in Grantland.

That is, of course…when hes not stealing my material from this forum and using it in his articles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

 It is Remarable how the talking heads on espn influence the average fan & how little research that average fan does on his or her own… espn has dubbed Utah as a remarkable rebuild "done the right way" w/ the implication that they accomplished this trun around in one or two years & Rudy Gobert is a future franchise player… I like Gobert – he’s a nice piece & he really gave Utah a Rim protection presence but – just like the Greek Freak in Asswaukee & Draymon Green in Golden State – he is not now nor will he ever be a Star… Gobert Averages 6 points & 7 rebounds a game & 1.8 blocks… There is a reason Gobert was drafted at the Bottom of the 1st round at # 27 overall in 2013… Utah has a really nice young team but make NO mistake, the team looks good b/c of Two players – Gordon Hayward & Derrick Favors who were BOTH drafted OVER 5 years ago (2009 & 2010)…. Gobert’s Rim protection is Elite but his overall skill set in No Where near the level of a Nerlens Noel who was Clearly the # 1 prospect in that 2013 Draft & was the obvious # 1 pick if not for an knee injury… excellent post, your breakdown was Excellemt & your honesty as a Utah fan was admirable…. Utah has hovered around .500 this whole decade (2010 – 2015) but the media has crhistened them a darling & painted a picture that they rebuild a trainwreck into an up & comer after only a short time when that’s just not true… Milwaukee or as most Americans call it "Asswaukee" is another media Darling… Greg Monroe was certainly an excellent signing but let’s not forget that Detroit did NOT want him any longer… Antetokounmpo averages 9.8 points, 5.6 rebounds, 2.3 assists doesn Not block shots or create steals & he shoots a pedestrian 46% FG% for a 6’11” & 29% from 3pt%! MCW is garbage who Phila would have given away for Nothing & the Bucks gave them a Prized Lottery pick! Jabari Parker is the ONLY player on the Bucks w/ All Star potential… And before last season’s .500 record & #7 seed the Bucks had a solid Decade of losing basketball & in the previous 26 seasons, the Bucks have ONE playoff series victory -In addition, by cashing in that Lakers Lottery pick for MCW they have cemented themselves into the #7 to #10 seed in the East… It was foolish… So many NBA teams have GM’s that do not care about Long Term Vision – look at what Sacramento just did or Boston! espn raved about the Celtics last week but on Draft day Danny Aigne offered the Sixers about 6 First round picks in the 2015 & 2016 Draft AND 4 players (prospects from previous drafts such as Marcus Smart & James Young for Nerlens Noel & the Sixers # 3 pick in the 2015 Draft & Phila Laughed them off the phone… And no one thought Okafor would fall to # 3 at that point… Just 3 years ago, Golden State was coming off their 4th Twenty-something win season in a row, they were WAY below .500 & they were far from perfect but b/c they were consistently in the Lotteyr they accumulated some excellent players & hit the Jackpot w/ Steph Curry… Teams must be patient but very few have the Will to do it….

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NBAjunkie81Participant]

 It is Remarable how the talking heads on espn influence the average fan & how little research that average fan does on his or her own… espn has dubbed Utah as a remarkable rebuild "done the right way" w/ the implication that they accomplished this trun around in one or two years & Rudy Gobert is a future franchise player… I like Gobert – he’s a nice piece & he really gave Utah a Rim protection presence but – just like the Greek Freak in Asswaukee & Draymon Green in Golden State – he is not now nor will he ever be a Star… Gobert Averages 6 points & 7 rebounds a game & 1.8 blocks… There is a reason Gobert was drafted at the Bottom of the 1st round at # 27 overall in 2013… Utah has a really nice young team but make NO mistake, the team looks good b/c of Two players – Gordon Hayward & Derrick Favors who were BOTH drafted OVER 5 years ago (2009 & 2010)…. Gobert’s Rim protection is Elite but his overall skill set in No Where near the level of a Nerlens Noel who was Clearly the # 1 prospect in that 2013 Draft & was the obvious # 1 pick if not for an knee injury… excellent post, your breakdown was Excellemt & your honesty as a Utah fan was admirable…. Utah has hovered around .500 this whole decade (2010 – 2015) but the media has crhistened them a darling & painted a picture that they rebuild a trainwreck into an up & comer after only a short time when that’s just not true… Milwaukee or as most Americans call it "Asswaukee" is another media Darling… Greg Monroe was certainly an excellent signing but let’s not forget that Detroit did NOT want him any longer… Antetokounmpo averages 9.8 points, 5.6 rebounds, 2.3 assists doesn Not block shots or create steals & he shoots a pedestrian 46% FG% for a 6’11” & 29% from 3pt%! MCW is garbage who Phila would have given away for Nothing & the Bucks gave them a Prized Lottery pick! Jabari Parker is the ONLY player on the Bucks w/ All Star potential… And before last season’s .500 record & #7 seed the Bucks had a solid Decade of losing basketball & in the previous 26 seasons, the Bucks have ONE playoff series victory -In addition, by cashing in that Lakers Lottery pick for MCW they have cemented themselves into the #7 to #10 seed in the East… It was foolish… So many NBA teams have GM’s that do not care about Long Term Vision – look at what Sacramento just did or Boston! espn raved about the Celtics last week but on Draft day Danny Aigne offered the Sixers about 6 First round picks in the 2015 & 2016 Draft AND 4 players (prospects from previous drafts such as Marcus Smart & James Young for Nerlens Noel & the Sixers # 3 pick in the 2015 Draft & Phila Laughed them off the phone… And no one thought Okafor would fall to # 3 at that point… Just 3 years ago, Golden State was coming off their 4th Twenty-something win season in a row, they were WAY below .500 & they were far from perfect but b/c they were consistently in the Lotteyr they accumulated some excellent players & hit the Jackpot w/ Steph Curry… Teams must be patient but very few have the Will to do it….

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rip255]

 If anything, hes the ultimate third wheel. He can absolutely help you win Championships.

But his value is significantly reduced if hes not paired with flat-out-ballers on the offensive end.

And how much value can someone have if theyre so reliant on having Someone to pick up the slack on offense.

I don’t like having players you have to ‘hide’ on either end. Gobert doesnt escape criticism just because everyone likes him.

Zach Lowe over-uses terms like ‘easy to hide on defense’ etc. Maybe ESPN ‘hides’ him in Grantland.

That is, of course…when hes not stealing my material from this forum and using it in his articles.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BubbaChuckParticipant]

Not enough Ritalin to concentrate on words next to your profile pic. I trust they’re interesting.

[Rip255]

 Great..now we’ve got amphetemene addicts on the forum…

[BubbaChuckParticipant]

Just to clarify- was talking about @JR_Ryder’s pic (-; … not that Rip ‘n’ RUN isn’t mesmerizing too

[BubbaChuckParticipant]

Just to clarify- was talking about @JR_Ryder’s pic (-; … not that Rip ‘n’ RUN isn’t mesmerizing too

[Rip255]

 Great..now we’ve got amphetemene addicts on the forum…

[BubbaChuckParticipant]

Not enough Ritalin to concentrate on words next to your profile pic. I trust they’re interesting.

[JR RyderParticipant]

I dont think he will ever be his team’s best player, but hes certainly one of if not the most important player on his team. Center his size and his ability to anchor a defense is just as important as having a superstar scorer on a winning team (ex. Mavs championship team, Nowitzki was their best player, but Chandler was just as important).

Center position is usually the position that takes the most time to fully develop, which is why people are so high in Gobbert because he has not tapped into his full potential.

[festar35Participant]

He will be the defensive anchor like DeAndre Jordan, Tyson Chandler and Joakim Noah. This is a key part to absolutely any team that wants to win a Championship and I think Utah is really well put together.

I think Hayward is one part of a franchise player, as in he needs a guy of equal or better ability to really make Utah a threat in the West. Favors is solid, but I am not sure he is good enough to be that other guy next to Hayward, he needs to extend that mid-range shot and continue to be a defensive force.

I think Utahs future will be as good as guys like Exum, Burke and Hood can develop we know what those other 3 bring to the table.

[SubZeroParticipant]

Don’t forget about Alec Burks and Trey Lyles.

Also, off, topic, but I personally wouldn’t group Joakim with those other guys. Yeah he can’t shoot for crap, but he’s one of the best handling and distributing C’s

[SubZeroParticipant]

Don’t forget about Alec Burks and Trey Lyles.

Also, off, topic, but I personally wouldn’t group Joakim with those other guys. Yeah he can’t shoot for crap, but he’s one of the best handling and distributing C’s

[festar35Participant]

He will be the defensive anchor like DeAndre Jordan, Tyson Chandler and Joakim Noah. This is a key part to absolutely any team that wants to win a Championship and I think Utah is really well put together.

I think Hayward is one part of a franchise player, as in he needs a guy of equal or better ability to really make Utah a threat in the West. Favors is solid, but I am not sure he is good enough to be that other guy next to Hayward, he needs to extend that mid-range shot and continue to be a defensive force.

I think Utahs future will be as good as guys like Exum, Burke and Hood can develop we know what those other 3 bring to the table.

[MopgrassParticipant]

I read an article by a metrics guy from Skeptical Sports called “The Case for Dennis Rodman” that argues Dennis Rodman and not Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, etc., etc. was the greatest all-time player. I still think it’s Jordan, but maybe I’d entertain it if I knew a bit more metrics. The argument was actually that Rodman blew everyone else out of the water. Sounds a little crazy to me… but dude was on nothing but winning teams. Anyway, even if those metrics are off, perhaps we underestimate what those kind of guys are worth. Gobert is no Rodman, but they Jazz started winning as soon as Gobert started playing well. I think he’s the most valuable guy on the team whether he looks like it or not.

[MopgrassParticipant]

I read an article by a metrics guy from Skeptical Sports called “The Case for Dennis Rodman” that argues Dennis Rodman and not Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, etc., etc. was the greatest all-time player. I still think it’s Jordan, but maybe I’d entertain it if I knew a bit more metrics. The argument was actually that Rodman blew everyone else out of the water. Sounds a little crazy to me… but dude was on nothing but winning teams. Anyway, even if those metrics are off, perhaps we underestimate what those kind of guys are worth. Gobert is no Rodman, but they Jazz started winning as soon as Gobert started playing well. I think he’s the most valuable guy on the team whether he looks like it or not.

[BubbaChuckParticipant]

Your use of labels is kinda pointless. Forget Star/Franchise player- in today’s metrics we can pretty much see who’s more valuable. I agree that Gobert isn’t a “Star” on offense, but he’s actually a little underrated. Although it’s a small sample size, he shot 60.4% FG last year.

Gobert is great on defense & slightly above average on offense (0.7 OBPM & 5.1 DBPM = 5.8 BPM), whereas Favors is only slightly above average in both (0.8 OBPM & 1.7 DBPM = 2.4 BPM).

So in conclusion, even though I agree that Gobert may not be the ultimate go-to-guy and “Superstar” as you would call it, he’s amazing in his own right. Crazy length is something you can’t teach (+ the coordination to take advantage of it). Favors on the other hand just doesn’t seem amazing at either end of the court, good – yes, amazing – no. So whether Gobert will become a “superstar” or not, he’s a step ahead of Favors either way.

[BubbaChuckParticipant]

Your use of labels is kinda pointless. Forget Star/Franchise player- in today’s metrics we can pretty much see who’s more valuable. I agree that Gobert isn’t a “Star” on offense, but he’s actually a little underrated. Although it’s a small sample size, he shot 60.4% FG last year.

Gobert is great on defense & slightly above average on offense (0.7 OBPM & 5.1 DBPM = 5.8 BPM), whereas Favors is only slightly above average in both (0.8 OBPM & 1.7 DBPM = 2.4 BPM).

So in conclusion, even though I agree that Gobert may not be the ultimate go-to-guy and “Superstar” as you would call it, he’s amazing in his own right. Crazy length is something you can’t teach (+ the coordination to take advantage of it). Favors on the other hand just doesn’t seem amazing at either end of the court, good – yes, amazing – no. So whether Gobert will become a “superstar” or not, he’s a step ahead of Favors either way.

[ExumInfernoParticipant]

 I will go with the idea of Gobert as a future superstar idea.  Utah will pay him max money.  He will be a double-double player with 3 blocks a game and shooting from the field of 55% to 60%.

No need to talk about his defense, it is at the highest level, but his offense seems to be very good too.  Some of his pick-and-roll work is like Shaq and others did, Gobert is either getting the dunk or defense are letting his teammate get an easy shot.  Gobert doesn’t have range on his shot, but he knows his limitations and when his point guard is playing well it means Gobert is getting the ball near the basket.

He is also a player improving all the time.  From year 1 to 2, his percentages, scoring, passing, and fouling all improved.  

Gobert will be an exciting player to watch next season, although maybe Exum was the best at passing to him so other players will need to work with him more.  

 

 

 

[ExumInfernoParticipant]

 I will go with the idea of Gobert as a future superstar idea.  Utah will pay him max money.  He will be a double-double player with 3 blocks a game and shooting from the field of 55% to 60%.

No need to talk about his defense, it is at the highest level, but his offense seems to be very good too.  Some of his pick-and-roll work is like Shaq and others did, Gobert is either getting the dunk or defense are letting his teammate get an easy shot.  Gobert doesn’t have range on his shot, but he knows his limitations and when his point guard is playing well it means Gobert is getting the ball near the basket.

He is also a player improving all the time.  From year 1 to 2, his percentages, scoring, passing, and fouling all improved.  

Gobert will be an exciting player to watch next season, although maybe Exum was the best at passing to him so other players will need to work with him more.  

 

 

 

[ChoppyParticipant]

 Mutombo, Rodman and Wallace definitely were stars. No question. Agree with you on Gobert though. He’s not in their class. 

[bumbleb33Participant]

 lol cmon the guy has played just two seasons in the NBA and is already a DPOY candidate

[bumbleb33Participant]

 lol cmon the guy has played just two seasons in the NBA and is already a DPOY candidate

[ChoppyParticipant]

 Mutombo, Rodman and Wallace definitely were stars. No question. Agree with you on Gobert though. He’s not in their class. 

[HitsterParticipant]

 Gobert has not been considered a major offensive talent,the great defensive men Rip mentioned built their games around their defensive abilities with any offensive contributions being a bonus. Gobert’s value will be built around a similar scenario. Andrew Bogut at GSW helped them to a title last season mainly on his defensive contributions and made 2nd All Defensive Team, Tyson Chandler likewise had never been a prolific scorer but he has been a fine defensive player for many years.

Gobert’s value to Utah will be as a fine defensive anchor going forward, any offensive contributions will be a bonus.

 

[HitsterParticipant]

 Gobert has not been considered a major offensive talent,the great defensive men Rip mentioned built their games around their defensive abilities with any offensive contributions being a bonus. Gobert’s value will be built around a similar scenario. Andrew Bogut at GSW helped them to a title last season mainly on his defensive contributions and made 2nd All Defensive Team, Tyson Chandler likewise had never been a prolific scorer but he has been a fine defensive player for many years.

Gobert’s value to Utah will be as a fine defensive anchor going forward, any offensive contributions will be a bonus.

 

[T Rex]

 I understand what the OP is saying. Players who are one-way stars can do no wrong in most fans’ eyes, and in the eyes of the media as well.

That’s how D’Angelo Russell got drafted second, and Okafor third, ahead of two-way prospects like Porzingis and Myles Turner, and Stanley Johnson.

But I suspect Gobert’s offense will come along a bit, and with that size, improving a bit on offense can go a long, long way, because he’s so unblockable.

There’s a reason I started the "Gobert could be special" thread before he was drafted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[T Rex]

 I understand what the OP is saying. Players who are one-way stars can do no wrong in most fans’ eyes, and in the eyes of the media as well.

That’s how D’Angelo Russell got drafted second, and Okafor third, ahead of two-way prospects like Porzingis and Myles Turner, and Stanley Johnson.

But I suspect Gobert’s offense will come along a bit, and with that size, improving a bit on offense can go a long, long way, because he’s so unblockable.

There’s a reason I started the "Gobert could be special" thread before he was drafted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ZachAttackParticipant]

 I watch all Utah Games…

[ZachAttackParticipant]

 I watch all Utah Games…

[T Rex]

 But no opinion, as usual.

 

 

[T Rex]

 But no opinion, as usual.

 

 

[ZachAttackParticipant]

 Hey Man! Quit stalking me.

[ZachAttackParticipant]

 Hey Man! Quit stalking me.

[HitsterParticipant]

 With big men I’d take defence over offence most days, look at the head shaking when Kanter got $70 million over 4 years yet a proven defensive big man hardly raises an eyebrow when he gets a similarly lucrative deal.

[HitsterParticipant]

 With big men I’d take defence over offence most days, look at the head shaking when Kanter got $70 million over 4 years yet a proven defensive big man hardly raises an eyebrow when he gets a similarly lucrative deal.

[sitlbitoParticipant]

 First of all,it was me. And I said it as a joke because I know you’re overrating Exum on purpose(just to have a little attention like everything you post) and I did the same with Gobert. But still guys like David Locke(radio voice of the Jazz) are saying that the Jazz future success relies on how Gobert continues to develop. His defense is insanely good and makes a whole team good. 

[sitlbitoParticipant]

 First of all,it was me. And I said it as a joke because I know you’re overrating Exum on purpose(just to have a little attention like everything you post) and I did the same with Gobert. But still guys like David Locke(radio voice of the Jazz) are saying that the Jazz future success relies on how Gobert continues to develop. His defense is insanely good and makes a whole team good. 

[SoIntentionalParticipant]

 Dwight Howard was the star of those Magic teams his offensive game had came a long way from then to now but he was definitely the star of that team. & No I’m Not comparing him to Gobert at all just answering that question.

[SoIntentionalParticipant]

 Dwight Howard was the star of those Magic teams his offensive game had came a long way from then to now but he was definitely the star of that team. & No I’m Not comparing him to Gobert at all just answering that question.

[pe3ucTopParticipant]

Who cares about labels, Is he a star or not? Does it matter? The question is whether or not he helps you win games. Rudy is a game changer in defense. Teams need to game plan for him. 

If he was as good on the offensive end(instead of the defensive end) he’d be an MVP candidate. People just care more about offense than defense. I’m not saying they are right or wrong or anything, it’s just a fact. For me, I don’t care really if you count him as a star… if he makes your defense give up 95 points per 100 possessions, that’s plenty enough for me. 

Also, you have to remember the effect analytics has had on the game and our perception of the game. It’s very possible players like Rodman, Mutombo, Ben Wallace would be much more appreciated in today’s league than they were at the time they played.

What I’m going to say now will be somewhat preposterous to some of you but just check the stas… if you take a look at Rudy’s advanced stats of last season they are actually better than almost anything those 3 defensive greats have ever put in a season. And Rudy made it in his second season in the league. 

Best seasons:

WS/48

DM 1998/1999: .206 (no other season above .200)

BW 2001/2002: .190 

DR 1989/1990: .189

RG 2014/2015: .206

BPM:

 

DM 1998/1999: 4.6

BW 2001/2002: 5.9

DR 1989/1990: 4.9

RG 2014/2015: 5.8

VORP:

 

DM 1998/1999: 4.5

BW 2001/2002: 5.9

DR 1991/1992: 5.8 (his second best season is 4.2)

RG 2014/2015: 4.3

PER:

 

DM 1997/1998: 19.8

BW 2001/2002: 18.6

DR 1991/1992: 17.4 

RG 2014/2015: 21.6

 

TS%: 

DM 2005/2006: .626

 

BW 1998/1999: .539

DR 1988/1989: .613 

RG 2014/2015: .627

 

In other words, Rudy in his second season in the league has posted better advanced stats than 3 of the best defensive bigs in the history of the game in any season of their whole careers. I repeat – in his second season! 

His offensive game is not great, but he knows his limitations and has found a way to be extremely efficient with whatever chances he gets on offense. Will that make him a star? I don’t know really. I will be happy with him even if he keeps the level he had last year for the years to come. Even if he doesn’t improve significantly in any way, he’d still be a game changer on the defensive end and he’d still be DPOY candidate pretty much every year. 

 

[pe3ucTopParticipant]

Who cares about labels, Is he a star or not? Does it matter? The question is whether or not he helps you win games. Rudy is a game changer in defense. Teams need to game plan for him. 

If he was as good on the offensive end(instead of the defensive end) he’d be an MVP candidate. People just care more about offense than defense. I’m not saying they are right or wrong or anything, it’s just a fact. For me, I don’t care really if you count him as a star… if he makes your defense give up 95 points per 100 possessions, that’s plenty enough for me. 

Also, you have to remember the effect analytics has had on the game and our perception of the game. It’s very possible players like Rodman, Mutombo, Ben Wallace would be much more appreciated in today’s league than they were at the time they played.

What I’m going to say now will be somewhat preposterous to some of you but just check the stas… if you take a look at Rudy’s advanced stats of last season they are actually better than almost anything those 3 defensive greats have ever put in a season. And Rudy made it in his second season in the league. 

Best seasons:

WS/48

DM 1998/1999: .206 (no other season above .200)

BW 2001/2002: .190 

DR 1989/1990: .189

RG 2014/2015: .206

BPM:

 

DM 1998/1999: 4.6

BW 2001/2002: 5.9

DR 1989/1990: 4.9

RG 2014/2015: 5.8

VORP:

 

DM 1998/1999: 4.5

BW 2001/2002: 5.9

DR 1991/1992: 5.8 (his second best season is 4.2)

RG 2014/2015: 4.3

PER:

 

DM 1997/1998: 19.8

BW 2001/2002: 18.6

DR 1991/1992: 17.4 

RG 2014/2015: 21.6

 

TS%: 

DM 2005/2006: .626

 

BW 1998/1999: .539

DR 1988/1989: .613 

RG 2014/2015: .627

 

In other words, Rudy in his second season in the league has posted better advanced stats than 3 of the best defensive bigs in the history of the game in any season of their whole careers. I repeat – in his second season! 

His offensive game is not great, but he knows his limitations and has found a way to be extremely efficient with whatever chances he gets on offense. Will that make him a star? I don’t know really. I will be happy with him even if he keeps the level he had last year for the years to come. Even if he doesn’t improve significantly in any way, he’d still be a game changer on the defensive end and he’d still be DPOY candidate pretty much every year. 

 

[Author]

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