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Lets get one thing straight

Toronto16
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Lets get one thing straight

First off I must say I am a big fan of Kobe and I'm glad he got his fifth ring. But please nobody say he is on Jordan's level now. Please nobody say he is the greatest Laker ever. His team mates and the referees completely bailed him out tonight. He struggled mightily the entire game and almost shot the Lakers out of the game in the first half. His team was too long for the Celtics who were already missing Perkins. The truth is, if Artest and Gasol didn't bail out the Lakers, the Celtics would have won this game. It had nothing to do with Kobe.


rickyD510
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i already dispelled any of

i already dispelled any of those mumblings that might come up in another thread
http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/shoutout-world-champs

d-grizzly
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pau

did anyone else catch pau's up and down late-late-late in the 4th? man.

memphisgriz731
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Word

Word

esperanzafleet69
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i agree... but this entire

i agree... but this entire series was won on the boards... it was incredibly defensive so lots of rebound opportunities and the lakers out rebounded the celtics the whole series plain and simple..

OldSkoolBasketball
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people that think Kobe is in

people that think Kobe is in MJ level are dumb laker fans or was born after MJ retired.

Leftovers16
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Didn't see MJ

But from the videos, highlights, moves, records, story, legacy, shoes, clothing, he must have been awesome... I have seen almost all of MJs videos on Youtube and I have got to say Kobe is good but by no means on the same level as MJ but I will say he is on his own level he isn't the next MJ he is the next Kobe

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I saw MJ in his prime.

I saw MJ in his prime and definately the greatest player ive ever seen. But to be honest with you he never played a NBA Finals against a team that played D like the Celtics. ANd dont forget that Kobe had that huge bandage on his index finger on his shootin hand, and a sore ankle. Just sayin. He shot terribly but came through in the fourth and also had 15 rebounds.

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Yeah, unfortunately the

Yeah, unfortunately the ESPNs, Yahoo Sports, etc etc, will beat the thought to death...

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Why are people so upset about

Why are people so upset about everyone talking about kobe being up there with Jordan, People were already saying Lebron is as good/better than Jordan and he has ZERO rings. So i think people saying Lebron is better than Jordan (and yes theres people out there that think that) need to STFU!!!!!

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Anybody who think Kobe is on

Anybody who think Kobe is on Jordan's level needs to rent some Dvd's of Jordan. Jordan rarely if ever had a bad game in the While guys like Kobe, Lebron and especially Vince Carter may have the TALENT of Jordan, they don't have the mindset. These guys now a days get so wound up and tight in these high pressure situations and struggle. Jordan from the moment the ball is tipped has "kill, kill, kill" on his mind, NOBODY will ever have the killer instinct of Jordan. Yes, Kobe is the closing thing we've seen to Jordan, but he will never be Jordan. The fact is the refs completely dictated this series.

Bryant24
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Kobe is not better than

Kobe is not better than jordan right now and maybe never will but give this man credit looks who he playing against the celtics rondo holds the best d i have seen by a point guard in my time kevin garnett grat defender so yall have to get that some consideration and he has a bad back his pinky has been damage for like 3 years bad ankle and look what he accomplish with that so people can say he can be mention with jordan but not better i mean kobe is my favorite player by a landside but i got more jordans in my room than probably anybody up here i mean i didnt see jordan play in is prime but i have seen alot of footage cause i was born in 1992 let Kobe shine and if people say they opinion than so be its an free country

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Defense

The Bulls may not have faced a defense like that in the finals, but that rough-as-hell Detroit team was still (mostly) together when they won those first 3, and they faced them just about every year at some point in the (conference) playoffs. That Celtic defense was no picnic either, even if it was a little diminished by that point.

Kobe is probably one of the top 10 players of all time, but he couldn't sniff MJ's jock in his prime (or Magic or Bird's for that matter, although they had completely different style games).

Kobe wilted in game 7 - though to his credit, he kept working and contributed in lots of ways other than offensively. But compare that to Jordan killing the Jazz by himself, so sick he could barely stand...not even close.

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I'm gonna say this and im

I'm gonna say this and im only gonna say it once NOBODY and i mean NOBODY will ever match Jordans intensity and Desire to Win!!!

sc0rebuckets11
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Skillsets

They are very close, but Jordan is on another level mentally.

Jordan wouldn't put himself into the hard/difficult situations kobe does.

Captain L
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Kobe vs MJ

I'm old enough to have watched Russell and Wilt, Dr. J, Magic , Bird, MJ, and now Kobe, MJ is the best but Kobe is close, Kobe isn't quite as athletic, MJ was quicker, faster and had better hops, more explosive and just wouldn't let his team lose. Kobe is a better outside shooter, has alot better range but thats probably it. Kobe does everything well but MJ's athleticism allowed him to do alot of things better than anyone could do them.

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Happy

Dude I know your Happy that your Lakers were given the title, but Put the Smoke down and slowly back away.

Kobe is a glorified version of Pippen at best

sheltwon3
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I have watched Jordan in his

I have watched Jordan in his prime but missed out on some of his early years but Kobe is close to Jordan and can actually do more but Jordan had an uncanny ability to make clutch shots and look great doing it.

Kobe is banged up and had a terrible game. You guys act like Jordan has never had a bad game. It took Jordan like 7 or 8 years to win a championship and he needed help. All of his championships, he had a lot of help.

Some people are overhyping what Jordan did because they believe in a myth.

Jordan was human.

He had bad games too.

Kobe got a lot of his game from Jordan.

He can basically do everything Jordan can do and have for quite so time.

He does not have Jordan's flair and he is not as clutch as Jordan but pretty close.

Meditated States
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Kobe is not on MJ's level

Sorry don't see it. I like Kobe, but I watched mike since he came in the league and Kobe as well. Great job by the Lakers on the boards, that won it for them. Missing Perkins mos def hurt in that area, and it was obvious. If Artest is banging threes at crunch time your in trouble. Whats the deal with Pau's up and down? Thats a 1 point game without that play.

piratejp
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Not close

Sure Jordan lost games, I remember him pretty clearly - no myth. Kobe's a nice player, but he's just not close to the finisher or competitor that Jordan was.

Also, Jordan may have had a better number 2 in Pippen, and a nice number 3 (Horace Grant / Rodman) but he never had a center who wasn't a journeyman (Klein) or past his prime (Cartwright). Guys like Paxson, Kerr and Randy Brown were fine complimentary players, but nothing special; and they wouldn't have done nearly as well playing with Kobe.

In fact, flip players on teams, and the Bulls win maybe 2 or 3 championships with Kobe (assuming he didn't melt down and demand a trade first); nevermind Jordan's lost baseball years (sad). This Lakers squad on the other hand would be a dynasty with Jordan on board. The Celtics are a gutsy, defensively tough team, but Jordan's Lakers would have put them down in 5.

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Wow Kobe is a glorified

Wow Kobe is a glorified Pippen at best? 15 dollars for a hamburger, Yall cant be serious! Thats proposterous. Thats just a terrbile terrible thing to say.

Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan there is. No doubt about it. Does that mean he's MJ? No. Thats why he's looked at as the greatest player ever to play. But to be so good that he is mentioned in the same breath and to be comparable is a pretty damn good consolation I would think. Nobody will ever be as clutch as Jordon was, nobody will ever be the big game player Jordon was. But lets not be stupid and say that Jordan never faced adversity on his ride either. Kobe didnt have a great game tonight, but cmon, he came through at the end, thats what the great ones can do. They can play an awefull game for 44 minutes and then that last 4 minutes is a completely different story. I'm sure Jordan had his share of those kind of games too.

Stop with the &$#%#&@!ing about how the Lakers rebounding bailed him out...thats just annoying. I'm sure Scottie Pippen or Dennis Rodman or Toni Kukoc or Ron Harper never stepped up in a big gmae if Jordan was struggling either? Cut the crap and frickin be smart when posting stuff...its not that hard. Put down the darn biasness.

He's not Jordan, but by golly he's the closest thing to him.

NYK2010
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Kobe close to MJ, are you

Kobe close to MJ, are you serious MJ never had a big like Shaq, Gasol or who knows how many rings he'd have.
How many Game 7's did he play, I was ready to put Kobe near MJ's level after Suns series.
But the Celtics slowed him down and no way MJ is slowed like this.
You can argue free throws, skills and 3's all you want the fact is MJ is better hands down.
Kobe is a great closer but he's not the best closer thats MJ too sorry but Alvin Gentry is way off with his comments.
Becaz Kobe destroys your team doesn't mean he's better than MJ.

BlueLaces
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Biggysmalls, I agree 100%

Biggysmalls, I agree 100% with you. Kobe is the best player to play the game since Jordan retired. In my mind, no one is ever going to be as good as Michael, but Kobe is the 2nd greatest shooting guard behind him and one of the top ten players we have ever seen. I also think you can say that he is in the same breathe as Magic. They are 1A and 1B as far as greatest Lakers of all time in my book.

Kobe's shot may not have been failing tonight (he did force quite a bit in the first half), but he did pull down 15 rebounds tonight which is one shy of his career high. The dude did everything in his power to help his team win tonight and he did not disappoint.

Also, you should expect his teammates to step up and have really good games on a night like this, that is why they are part of a championship team.

BothTeamsPlayedHard
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I don't think he will ever

I don't think he will ever compare to Magic, because Kobe can never match the rate of winning. 5 titles, 9 finals appearances, and only three times in thirteen years missing the final four. We have had as many Junes without Kobe as with him throughout his career. This does not even get into how much Magic made his teammates better, and the converse of Kobe continuing to force bad shots because of his lack of faith in his teammates.

Jordan and Kobe are cut from the same cloth, and it is because Kobe imitates Jordan in ever way possible. I think Kobe is a better shot maker than Jordan, but we did not see Jordan lose once he got to the top of the mountain. He completely dominated the 1990s, and the only reason Hakeem and David got their rings was because he chose to walk away. I can't forget that Kobe was the most impressive and eye dropping when he was dropping 40 after 40 and unable to make it to the playoffs win with Lamar Odom and Caron Butler. It would have never happened to Magic or Jordan.

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Crown Kobe King and be done with this thread

5 Rings...1 more away from MJ...When and If he wins 6 and 7 you'll be proclaiming the best of all time....The fact is ...Kobe in his prime would kill MJ in his prime...one on one....Kobe is the best...MJ didn't have a jumper half of his career...He beat people off the dribble and in the air( Check out the Ewing sterilization)

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I don't like being

I don't like being disrespectful, but scarecrow your a &$#%#&@! idiot. Kobe would kill MJ one on one? Did you forget how elite Jordan was as a defender? Not to mention Jordan is better at everything else except 3's. Sorry but wow.

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So kobe is a slouche

He's an elite defender Too...And has better handles, Range and leaping ability....MJ had the swagger of a winner...Kobe's respect for Jordan is the only thing that would prevent the student from beating the Teacher....Kobe is just a better player than was....Not saying he's better champion and has done enough to pass him yet...But Kobe still has 5 years of Basketball to win 2 to 3 more rings with the Lakers ...He's the G.O.A.T...watch them on split screen,,,you'll see Kobe is MJ evolved....Like Jean Grey and the Phoenix...Evolution has happened My Friend....

Hale
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I have no response to that

I have no response to that garbage. You must really love Kobe, that's all I can say.

The Scare Crow ...
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And you can argue all you want

There was no Lebron, Wade and Carmelo when MJ was playing...There was no Howard, Cp3, D.Will, Amare, Nash, CB4, Rondo, Rose or Duncan...MJ beat the Stockon and Malone duo in Utah to end his career...That's 2 hall of famers vs. 3 all of famers...Stockton and Malone Vs. MJ, Scottie and Rodman...not to mention Kukoc on the bench....who besides Kobe is a hall of famer on the Lakers...i count 3 on Boston....KG,Ray and Paul...Rondo is working on his resume too...show him his respect...even if you love Jordan More....Kobe is a the MJ of our time...don't &$#%#&@! it up by dreaming about the past and not living in the now....

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I'm not even the biggest Kobe fan

I just keep it real...MJ is not coming back to prove me wrong...Kobe will find a way to win 2 more rings and then what...U must be a MJ fan to say that Kobe doing this &$#%#&@! in 2010 doesn't beat what MJ did way back when...Kobe's got 5 good ass years where at worse he'll be a Manu Ginobli for some team and kill you come playoffs ever year until he's 40...Kobe's what 31 or 32....Think about it Man...Kobe still has YEARS to pass anything MJ did....he's got 2 rings Minus Shaq...Stop making that excuse...He's got Pau and Bynum....Who were they before Kobe made them Champions....Respect Him Now....Because They will make you later....If he gets 7 or 8 rings before he retires...Doing everything Jordan was able to do in the Modern Era...U have to give it to Kobe.....

Hale
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The 3 Hall of Famers Boston

The 3 Hall of Famers Boston has are all past their primes, don't use that excuse. That's garbage. You really think Howard, Cp3, D.Will, Amare, Nash, CB4, Rondo, Rose or Duncan make the what Kobe does now more amazing then what Jordan did against Bird/Isiah/Magic/Drexler/Dominique/Shaq/Hakeem/Ewing/Barkley/Payton/Kemp/Malone/David Robinson? Those are just a few names off the top of my head. Plus with handchecking and &$#%#&@!, Jordan still dominated better competition. Think Kobe woulda hung around with the bad boy Pistons for all those years like MJ did? I respect Kobe, his work ethic is incredible and I believe he is the best player in the NBA right now, used to think it was LeBron. But Jordan would kick his sorry ass one on one, five on five or any other way you wanna play. Except maybe a 3 point shooting contest. Did you know MJ and Kobe have played the same amount of years already? Compare their stats now and who wins? Or to be fair give Kobe 2 more years because he came out of high school. Jordan is king. Kobe might set records or accomplish more then Jordan did, but only because he will have played much longer/started earlier and has been given so much more. Shaq and Pau never came along for Jordan.

piratejp
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East

The West might not have been very tough every year MJ played against them in the finals, but they had to get out of the East, and that was brutal from the conference semi's on. Every year.

They beat a pretty good Lakers team for number 1, and it wasn't even close either - they kicked their butts. Those Utah teams were no joke either. Portland...no comment.

IndianaBasketball
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@yupyup You're not thinking

@yupyup

You're not thinking correctly if you don't think Kobe could've hung with the late 80's/early 90's Pistons.

I think Jordan is the greatest player that I've seen, but people act like he's God. He's not. He NEVER beat Magic or Bird in their primes. During his prime, Bird beat Jordan every year in the playoffs. That Lakers team in 1991 was very good, but that wasn't a prime Magic.

And it's arguable whether or not the competition back then is better than it is today.

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@ Butler Bulldogs

It's called evolution....You have a mutant or two in the process...But in the end...What we Evolve into is makes it's predecessor obsolete

Hale
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Just an example Butler. To

Just an example Butler. To say say the players he listed are better then the ones I listed is ridiculous. That's my point. He was clearly not god, but he ALWAYS produced in the Finals. Always. If you watch Kobe complain now, imagine what he would do against those Pistons. Not saying he couldn't survive them, but he probably would demand a trade to the West or something. Kobe is not Mike, nor will he ever be. He isn't going to get better next year at age 32. MJ's prime was/is better then Kobe's.

IndianaBasketball
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Other than Bird, Magic,

Other than Bird, Magic and Isiah... Kobe played against every player on your list.

You can't say what Kobe would or wouldn't have done. IF he played back then, he'd have adjusted and been acustomed to that style of play. Like Jordan, Kobe could play during any era. There are some things Jordan did better, but Kobe is as complete of a player as Jordan was.

I think the criticism Kobe receives is absurd. He's been to seven NBA Finals and won five of them in his 14 year NBA career.

- Kobe can't win a title without Shaq... If he doesn't, his legacy will be tarnshied
- Kobe doesn't have any Finals MVPs
- Kobe doesn't make his teammates better
- Kobe has no league MVPs
- Kobe can't beat the Celtics... If he doesn't, his legacy will be tarnished

He's answered every one of those questions and is the best player in the world. The thing is, his career isn't done.

MrAnalyst
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Scarecrow

I usually got your back man, but to say Kobe would beat Jordan is absurd. And to say Kobe has better handles and leaping ability than Jordan is absurd. Did you ever see how Jordan would just cross people over as good or better than Iverson? Did you ever see Jordan take off from the free throw line and pretty much fly through the air, do a pump fake with one hand, than dunk it? Kobe is real athletic, got real good handles, and is a pretty good defender don't get me wrong, but words can not even describe how good MJ was. The only thing I would give Kobe is his jumpshot, the ONLY!

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Jordan over Kobe in pretty

Jordan over Kobe in pretty much everything exept perimeter shooting. The biggest discrepancy is defense, where Jordan was twice the defender that Kobe is.

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Actually BB

Kobe for King....Hail King Mamba....I wonder if he beats Lebron and the Cavs in the Finals for his 6th Ring in 2010 and then beats Wade and the New Super Heat for the 7th ring in 2011...And possibly Melo and the "New "Knicks in 2012...will Kobe become better than Jordan Then....That LA isn't going anywhere...They are one younger point guard to replace Fisher from doing this for another two years...Name a team in the East that will be better than LA next year....I hate LA but damm they ain't going away....

piratejp
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early Jordan

If Jordan had had a player like Shaq with him when he was young and flying, like Kobe did...let's just say he'd have more than 6 rings for those who want to do a ring count or flog him for not beating those Celtic teams early on. Those Celtic and Piston teams were very good teams when they were winning championships, and MJ didn't have any help at that point, at least nothing like what Kobe had with Shaq.

IndianaBasketball
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Jordan was more explosive and

Jordan was more explosive and had bigger hands, but Kobe is on par with him as an overall athlete.

Kobe is definitely a better ball handler than Jordan was. He's the better shooter too.

I'll give Jordan the edge defensively because he didn't take as many plays off that Kobe does. Kobe is on par with him in defensively ability though.

IndianaBasketball
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@piratejp And what makes you

@piratejp

And what makes you think Jordan would've been able to co-exist with a player like Shaq on his team? He hated when they gave the ball to Bill Cartwright. What makes you think he would've been happy feeding the ball to a dominate center?

Hale
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Butler

Kobe can't win a title without Shaq... If he doesn't, his legacy will be tarnished -Kobe has won 2 w/o Shaq already
Kobe doesn't have any Finals MVPs -also has 2
Kobe doesn't make his teammates better -At times he does
Kobe has no league MVPs -Has 1
Kobe can't beat the Celtics... If he doesn't, his legacy will be tarnished -Just did

What are you getting at with that? I agree he answered them. That isn't what I'm saying. I don't know what you are trying to argue. Jordan > Kobe, you said it yourself and that is my point. You're like trying to get me to feel bad for Kobe. Kobe is amazing! 5 titles, 1 MVP (deserved more), 2 Finals MVP's and the best player in the game today. He is a top 10 player ever. He would not beat Jordan one on one. That is why I posted in the first place.

Also yes he played against all those players mostly past their primes, that means nothing.

IndianaBasketball
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That part of the post wasn't

That part of the post wasn't towards you. Towards all of the criticism that he gets. I think instead of worrying about if he's the greatest Laker or better than Jordan, we should just appreciate what he's accomplished. There isn't another player like him in the game right now.

And as far as playing Jordan one on one... Once upon a time, Michael Finley (I think the summer before he went to college) played Jordan tough. I think Kobe could beat Jordan at least two or three times in a seven game series.

Hale
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True. Yeah, MJ couldn't win

True. Yeah, MJ couldn't win every game, he would win more then he would lose though.

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Kobe for King

Get it in your head....

ItsVictorOladipo
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Jordan was the slightly

Jordan was the slightly better passer, rebounder, defender and scorer. He was also far more efficient from the floor. Kobe has never in a season shot better than 47.0 % from the field. MJ shot better than 51% in 6 different seasons and shot 49.7% in his career, far better than Kobe's 45.5%.

Kobe is a great player, don't get me wrong but MJ was better in almost every facet of the game.

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I'll give Jordan the edge as

I'll give Jordan the edge as a scorer, defender and rebounder. Passing... I think they're equal. Kobe may even have the slight edge. Ball handling... Kobe is better. Shooting... Kobe is better. Post game... They're about equal.

I think you have to consider that Kobe attempts way more three-pointers than Jordan when talking about FG%. Jordan wasn't a three-point shooter.

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What What Kobe Do???
ItsVictorOladipo
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iverson crosses jordan

Yep one of the greatest ball handlers with one of the best crossovers in NBA history beat Jordan when MJ was 34. Not really much of a knock against Jordan.

What would Kobe do? We'll find out 2 years from now when he goes up against Derrick Rose entering his prime...

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Butler and Scarecrow

You guys are honestly crazy. I do not even have to defend myself. You guys saying the stuff you did defends myself alone. You guys are crazy if you truly believe any of what you said besides perimeter shooting.

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