[NJHooper95Participant]

I am a huge advocate of Kobe, but his play is becoming disturbing to me. Kobe feels that he must shoot under any circumstances. I understand this is who he has been all of his career, but he is on the decline, and has two legit threats in the post that he doesnt use enough.

Last night against the woeful Detroit Pistons Kobe went 8-26- 22points, Bynum went 13-18 30 points, and Pau Gasol 8-14 20 points. At what point will Kobe realize that Bynum is a star and Pau Gasol will help them get far? Say what you want, but it is better to make the best basketball play, rather than trying to be spectacular.

There is no need for most coaches in the league, because coaches like Mike Brown do not have the heart to tell a star like Kobe, " hey you are shooting to much tonight, make sure you get the big guys more involved".  People kill Lebron (I hate Lebron) on not taking the last shots, but it is better to make the best play than take a terrible shot just to say I took it. Sadly that is Kobe, I took the shot, but some of his shot selections are terrible, especially when you have a dominant big men.

Does anybody beside myself, believe Kobe will not sacrifice personal glory over winnings? That he will not admit that maybe he should shoot less, and that the team needs to go thru their big men? I never thought I would say this, but to me it seems like he is more set on winnings a scoring title more than a ring.

I firmly believe that if Kobe wants a sixth ring, that he will have to ride the backs of Bynum and Gasol to get it done.

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

Dude, when where you been for the past 10 years? This is NOTHING NEW!!! Phil said, Shaq said, even Magic said it..But Mike Brown is a pitiful offensive coach,he doesnt do a good job of rotating players off the bench..He’s a star player’s type of coach,becuz he lets them do their thing..He let Lebron run the show in Cleveland..They were successful,but when it appeared that they would never win a ring,thats when he was run out of town,now it appears the same thing might be happening in LA….

 

[Maniac MaciejParticipant]

His biggest weakness, for sure, has always been his propensity for taking low-percentage shots. He may be a great shooter, but his FG percentages don’t indicate that like they should. If he would just make the smart pass every now and then instead of firing up an off-balance fadeaway…

On the offensive side, I think that’s primarily what puts him a notch below MJ historically, and LeBron currently.

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

1 thing i like about Kobe is that even if he misses a last second shot,he’s not afraid to take it the next game if he has a chance..Lebron always seem to be in a team oriented mold..The other night he brought his team all the way back,but he gave up the last second shot to Haslem…He seems to play the last few seconds of a game the same way he plays the other 3 quarters,he has to take completely over the game for 4 quarters..

[Maniac MaciejParticipant]

This is just a guess on the numbers…

Kobe will probably hit a contested last-second jumper about 1 out of every 3 times.

Udonis Haslem will probably hit a (mostly) wide-open jumpshot from the free throw line 1 out of every 2 times.

What’s the better play? My belief is that making the right basketball play is always the primary goal, regardless of how much time is left on the clock.

 

[mookieParticipant]

 ^^ what kinda post is that??  no facts, no stats, just guessing on numbers?  :-S

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

 You want stats. Go to 82games and click on their clutch stats. They have them for the last four seasons, including this season. Clutch time is fourth quarter or overtime, last five minutes, neither team has more than a five point lead. But here is a little of the stats.

Kobe’s clutch stats continue to be fairly mediocre in percentages but very high in volume. This year he is shooting 28% during clutch time. Considering some of those shots must be of the easier variety, including some dunks, I think it is generous to say that Kobe would shoot as high as 33% on last second contested jumpers. Really, this year, he is probably dropping down in the 25% range on those end of game jumpers. 

 

LAL

Bryant

23

76

34

+21

38.3

.279

6.3

.200

13.2

71%

32.1

23%

10.1

8.8

6.3

0.6

1.3

Note that Haslem is equally bad during clutch time. There is something about the pressure of taking a last second jumper, even an easy one like Haslem was set up for, that makes it a harder shot. So I don’t know if Haslem is really going to hit game winning jumpers from 18 feet 50% of the time no matter how open he is. All in all, I agree with the Lebron play at the end of the game for two reasons. One, Haslem was set up for an easy jumper and I bet he hits 40% of the time which is probably better than Lebron when Lebron is double teamed unless Lebron can get all the way to the rim. Two, Haslem got some experience and a vote of confidence from Lebron which might help them when the games count (i.e., in the playoffs). Lebron is basically saying, I trust everyone on this team to make key plays down the stretch. Kobe is sh!tting all over his team when he takes over at the end of every game. 

 

MIA

Haslem

14

59

11

+9

6.5

.250

0.0

.000

6.5

87%

9.0

100%

9.8

0.0

0.0

0.0

0.8

 

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

 Incidentally, Lebron’s clutch time stats are, as one who is not a hater would expect, absolutely silly. 

During clutch time, on a per 48 minute basis, he is averaging 36 points, 19 rebounds, 13 assists, 2 blocks and 2 steals. He is just producing like crazy all across the floor during clutch time this year. Better than last year. Though not quiet as good as his last year in Clevaland. Yes, he is only shooting 40%, but it is hard to shoot a lot during clutch time and have a high shooting percentage because the refs do swallow their whistles and defenses do get away with some stuff. 

Cleveland clutch time stats from 2010:

66 points per game, 49% shooting, 16 rebounds, 8 assists, 3 blocks, 3 steals. Mind blowing!

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

You don’t watch Kobe much do you?  He’s done that his entire career and you’re noticing it now?

[fliptonnParticipant]

you think he has to ride on the backs of bynum and gasol?!?! i agree he should get them more involved and should definitely take fewer ill advised 3 pointers on a turn fade with a hand in his face. ill even agree that hes on the decline, but hes still a top three player in the nba, and probably has more experience than anyone in the league right now. in order for them to win a championship he needs help, but if you think the ball shouldnt be in his hands during crunch time then i wanna see your ring collection cause five says your wrong. its not kobe taking personal glory over winning. he truly believes they have the best chance to win if the ball is in his hands and if you ask any of his teammates ever (besides shaq who has one of the biggest ego’s in nba history) i bet they will agree.

[DurantsWingspan]

I am not a LeBron or Kobe fan, I am a Durant fan but an unbiased one. It is getting sickening that every single basketball fan buys into this whole Lebron not being clutch thing. Look at the stats. He is twice as good as Kobe in the clutch. Not only shooting, scoring, and field goal percentage, but also pretty much every category across the board. Kobe has always been a gunner and although he is great, that is why he will never be a top ten player. Yeah his stats might look good and he might have rings, but there is no way he is as good as the media portrays him to be and everyone buys into. These stats were very refreshing. Thank you Tall Man.

 

It is crazy how we hear these things that LeBron is LeChoke, when he is good in the clutch, and that Kobe is this Jordan-like player in the clutch, when in reality he is horrible in the clutch. Believe what YOU want, not what the MEDIA wants you to.

[DurantsWingspan]

I just cant wait till ten years go by and he finally has about 5 rings so everybody can just shut up about how he chokes and think about how big of a moron you were to have possibly the greatest basketball player ever infront of you, and to not even realize that he was better than Kobe…And who cares if he passes the last shot? That is a great thing. Jordan to Paxson? That just shows he is a team player and trusts his teamates and wants the BEST shot, even if he doesn’t take it. Since when is it better to be a ballhog?

[fliptonnParticipant]

is that a joke? were talkin about BIG game situations not regular season games. LeBron is arguably the most physically gifted athlete ever and he should dominate in the clutch. i dont know if you watch the finals last year, or the eastern conference finals two years ago, or the finals against the spurs, but lebron is not as clutch as kobe when it counts. ill use the same argument in every post. 5 rings says youre wrong. i do believe that lebron will become more clutch as his career goes on and i think hell finish with multiple rings, but at this point in their careers, dont be ridiculous dude

[Troupa DupsParticipant]

Really??  Don’t even speak on Lebron in the finals against the Spurs and use that as some comparison to justify Kobe and his black hole ways.  Kobe in his prime couldn’t take that squad to the finals because when he did have a squad of equal talent to that Cleveland squad he cried for a trade.  Dude seriously?  Stop beleiving the media hype man and think for yourself.  Right now the Lakers have more talent than 5th in the West.  Answer this,  if he’s so GREAT why can’t he bring that squad to a 4th seed?  Soon the blame will fall on the coach because the offense is crap but MOST of the blame falls on Kobe!!

[DurantsWingspan]

I might have been a little ridiculous and said thinks I don’t fully mean, like he is twice as clutch. But honestly the truth is I am just sick of hearing how clutch Kobe is. What does Kobe do that is so clutch. That 28% field goal. Maybe LeBron isn’t that clutch because he should look to take it himself more instead of pass. But on the same terms, maybe Kobe isn’t that clutch because he should look for him teammates more. You don’t think its a little predicatable what the Lakers are going to do down 2 with ten seconds left in the game? Double team Kobe and you are probably going to win, because he is not even looking for a wide-open man.

[fliptonnParticipant]

 kobe passed to fisher and horry a lot in his career

[Ghost01Participant]

 Kobe is in my opinion one of the most overrated players of all time. I just remember game 2 vs Orlando in 2009, when every single person I knew said "MJ totally passes that" When he badly missed the buzzer shot where he was triple covered. Or in 2010, where if Metta World Peace didnt rebound his horrendous air ball, they probably would have lost to a vastly inferior Phoenix team. Or in 2008, when he lost an elimination game in the finals by 37 points. Or in 2006, when he litterally quit on his team. Or last year, when his "favorites" got embarrassed in a 4 game sweep. 

When Shaq was his daddy, he did some thangs’. That being said, he faced 3 really weak Eastern Conference Champs (00 Indy, 01 Philly, and 02 New Jersey) and the only good team they beat in that run, 02 Sac, they needed like 35 free throws in the 4th quarter of game 6 and some really sketchy calls down the stretch to win them that game.

Just Sayin. He scores points. I get it. 

[DurantsWingspan]

I fully agree Fvck Swag. I think it is crazy that people consider him in the class of the greats with Bird and Magic and Oscar Robertson. It is a JOKE.

It is crazy all the times when Kobe chokes it is just not even talked about. He chokes in the playoffs and it slides under the bus. LeBron chokes in a freaking all-star game and you don’t hear the end of it. I wouldn’t even call it choking when Kobe does it, because its not that he just missed a shot, its that he tried to shoot over 3 freaking people, no shit he missed. Its more of a horrible/selfish basketball play.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

To be honest, I hate looking at those 82games stats that signify how clutch a player is.  Clutch isn’t taking the last shot with 3 seconds left.  Clutch is how hard you play in the final minutes.  It’s steals, rebounds, blocks, defense, and leadership.  It’s everything you do and say leading up to the final 10 seconds.  Kobe can score 10 consecutive points for his team to bring them back with 10 seconds left, but if he misses that final shot to help them win, he’s considered un-clutch according to those stats.

Clutch isn’t a skill, it’s your mentality.  You can’t put leadership, work-ethic, and heart into stats.  Just like you can’t put clutch into stats.

[fliptonnParticipant]

the lakers played the defending champion dallas mavericks and kobe had two great assists with under a min left to win. he recognized the double team and passed to the open man under the hoop. just like its easy to knock lebron when he messes something up, its easy to knock kobe when he shoots 8-22 in a game wearing a mask the whole time. it was a bad day, look at his career its pretty nuts. i could list his accomplishments but you probably already know them.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

Let me give you an example at how terrible these stats are.  

Andrew Bynum FG% in the "clutch":  46.2%

Dwyane Wade FG% in the "clutch": 39.7%

Chauncey Billups FG% in the "clutch": 38.1%

Now let’s play a little game, if your life depends on it, 10 seconds left, one shot, starting at the top of the key.  Grade-A defender on-ball.

Who do you want to shoot the ball?

[IvoLParticipant]

Tongue-Out-Like-23, by your example i choose Billups he is a better shooter than Wade, but i think you all will call me something like this ARE YOU SERIOUS?

[OldSkoolBasketballParticipant]

Here’s an article comparing LeBron vs Kobe in game winning shots.

http://chasing23.com/kobe-bryant-vs-lebron-james-game-winning-shots/ 

[DurantsWingspan]

Ill take anyone over that horrid 25% mark. What are you implying, that I would want Dwyane Wade even though he is a lower FG% than Bynum? Obviously I’d take Dwyane Wade at a 39% mark. Guards obviously are going to have a lower % than centers. I agree that these stats don’t mean everthing, but when you are about a 25% mark, they mean something. THAT IS TERRIBLE. So when it is that bad, yes I would much rather feed Bynum in the post than to give Kobe a shot where he is tripled team. If Kobe would look to pass than I would obviously give him the ball, but come playoff time, you don’t think that Kobe taking an ill-advised fadeaway over 2 defenders is a little predictable? Don’t get me wrong, Kobe is a GREAT player. Definitley a top 5-10 SG of all time. DEF NOT a top 5-10 player of all time.

And yeah, he passed to Fisher and Horry when Shaq was on the team. Shaq would kill him if he took a shot over 3 people liek he does now. He has no discipline now, or no one with the balls to step up and tell him he gotta pass.

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

I have no clue where TallmanNYC got that 28% figure.  

http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM

Last season, Kobe was 40.2 FG% in the clutch while scoring a league high 49.8 PPG.

[aamir543Participant]

Kobe has always shot a lot, and before he was even better than he is now, but he nees to ride his bigs into the playoffs. One thing I disagree with as for the Lakers’ sheme is not playing Gasol in the post as much as before. I know Bynum has played well and the more touches he gets in the post, the better he’s gonna get, however Pau is the most skilled post player in the league, adn I felel that the Lakers should take advantage of this. That was one a of the perks of the triangle offense, it put Pau in the perfect position where he was able to succeed. He has started to round into shape as of late, however i would feel much more comfortable with him in the post rather than a majority of his shots being jumpshots.

Kobe is still the best shooting guard in the league, and is still a top 5-7 player in the league, however he has been forcing it just a little to much this season. He seems like he’s trying a bit too hard at times, but in the end he is Kobe Bryant, not some idiot off the street. Several times in late game situations, I’ve seen him fade as if he’s taking an off balance leaner, then throw a beautiful alley-oop to Pau or Bynum. Kobe wants to be great, an his first instinct is to score, that’s what he does, he scores, but for the Lakers to succeed, I believe that he’s gonna have to sacrifice about 5 points per game, and give Pau adn Bynum more touches. If all three of them are shooting above 45% from the floor with at least 15 a piece, with at least one of them around 23 a game, I think they’ll be fine. As long as Kobe is able to not force as many shots as he currently does, they may have a run in them.

[Future_Scout]

i think the thing here is, that its more noticeable that kobe shoots too much now because he has lost that incredible first step so he ends ups having to take more contested/harder shots. he needs to feed his bigs, no doubt. but if they want to win it all with that roster, they’re gonna need kobe to great.

[Michael.S.Participant]

Kobe also played awful in the most important game a player can ever have. Game 7 of the Finals. God thing he got bailed out.

[HadzialijagicParticipant]

 The reason Kobe takes so many shots is he has the mindset that he can hit all of them. Thats why the Lakers need a true point guard a la Ramon Sessions that can feed Kobe Bynum and Gasol in their hot spots and keep them happy. Kobe has the ball in his hands most possesions as portrayed by his nba high 34.9 usage rate.

[HaleParticipant]

 I’d rather have Kobe take the final shot then LeBron, but I trust LeBron to make the right decision more then I do Kobe. Kobe takes some awful shots in the clutch.

[Maniac MaciejParticipant]

 http://www.82games.com/1112/CSORT11.HTM

For those who were wondering…

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I find people funny. This thread was nowhere to be found during the last three games while Kobe was averaging over 30, shooting over like 50%, etc since wearing the mask after breaking his nose and suffering a concussion. Now after a bad game versus the Pistons, we see this?

"Kobe one of the most overrated players of all time"

I get it… He shoots a lot, but really? Overrated players of *ALL TIME*? Dramatic…

 

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Kobe also played awful in the most important game a player can ever have. Game 7 of the Finals. God thing he got bailed out.

At least he showed up… That’s more than you can say about LeBron versus Dallas last year.

[bobbybParticipant]

I agree with Indiana,, you can have a bad playoff/finals games but LeBron had a bad series.. there is a big difference

[DurantsWingspan]

I was going to say that 28% was sooo horrible I was shocked. 40% seems more accurate.

[Future_Scout]

maniac…..

wow irving top 3 in scoring in "the clutch"

[DurantsWingspan]

Rebound and assists rate in the clutch is UNBELIEVABLE. That has to mean something. Scoring isn’t the only thing. Also he is a SHUTDOWN defender in the clutch. The only person who can and has shut down Derrick Rose in the clutch.

I get it, Kobe may be a better scorer, but they are very close in that degree. In everything else LeBron KILLS him. Maybe you can make an argument for Kobe being better in the clutch. But if you think Kobe is or ever was the OVERALL player that LeBron is, you really don’t have that much knowledge about what wins a basketball game and are just intrigued by scoring and tough shots, or you are either completely biased for Kobe, or against LeBron. Don’t tell me the rings I don’t wanna hear it. Give LeBron 7 years to get to Kobe’s age and I guarantee that he will have a few himself. Plus he had Shaq for three of them. Shaq! The most dominant big men that any of us have ever seen. LeBron never had a team till last year, and he choked then. A few chokes doesn’t mean Kobe Bryant is better than him. He didn’t choke in rebounds, steals, blocks, and assists. There is more to basketball than scoring and there is WAY more than scoring that LAST shot. I think we have to not make the other 47 minutes invaluable because 47 minutes is way more important than that last one. Don’t kid yourself on the medias hype for scoring and late game heroics.

[Ghost01Participant]

 Indiana- I’m not referring to the last 5 games when talking about Kobe being overrated. I brought up about 10 different points, none of which has anything to do with the 2012 season. Don’t tell me I’m overreacting to one bad game when my argument was far from that. 

[tuck243Participant]

Its not that Kobe shoots a lot is the type of shots he takes which make him a "ball hog"…  I always said I haven’t seen a superstar in the league EVER to shoot the most ridiculous shots as Kobe…  I mean majority of the shots Kobe hit are the MJ highlight shots…  The shot on Ehlo and such is Kobe shot EVERY game…   I rarely see Kobe miss an open shot…  That mentallity to win and put the team your back is what make you clutch…  You can give me stats all day if you want unless there is a MASSIVE difference then those stats aren’t a big deal…  Same with the Holleniger stat… 

LeBron will have a great 4th and instead of going hard to finish the game he just give up…  Its not even about hitting the shot its the body language and mindset which make him unclutch…

[Maniac MaciejParticipant]

Kobe is the most polarizing player of his generation. You can make an argument that he’s never at any point been the best player in the league…always fighting guys like Shaq, Iverson, Duncan, KG, and LeBron for that title, but never clearly taking the crown at any one point like Jordan once did and LeBron is doing now.

However, you’d be silly to ignore the ability, the stats and the titles. He’s clearly one of the top 20 players of all-time and possibly one of the top 10.

[OldSkoolBasketballParticipant]

Kobe 9-31 for 30 points. Lakers blew a huge lead against the Wizards and lost. 

[Troupa DupsParticipant]

9 – 31 is ridiculous, at which point do you realize that if you keep taking ill advised shots that you’re not going to win!!!???  He’s absolutely PAINFUL to watch, i feel sorry for Gasol and Bynum

[DurantsWingspan]

Its becoming a more common occurance. The Wizards though? You have got to feed whoever Andre Blatche is guarding.

[llperez]

kobes had two bad games in a row. I didnt even see tonights game, but the numbers speak for themselves. BUt oh well. SOme times you gotta take the lumps with the good. I rather he use meaningless games vs det and wash to try and find a rythim so he can be on when the playoffs. Start. ANd some of the hating on here is silly. He is the second best player ever behind MJ and he aint done yet.

[iguapops420Participant]

 Yeah, Kobe shot bad in game 7, but like the clutch player he is, he found another way to produce by playing top notch defense and grabbing 15 rebounds. Like TOL23 said, clutch isn’t just about making the last shot. There are a number of variables that go into it and it takes having bball iq and actually watching the games to understand this. Can’t just look at numbers. 

As for him shooting a lot  more this season, there was an article recently talking about how MB actually told Kobe they were going to have to rely on him a lot more this season to get them over the hump offensively since they haven’t been able to practice and had such a short training camp. There are things that go on behind the scenes that dictate outecomes and events that we as fans simply have no idea of. And as Indiana said, I’ll be waiting on all of the Kobe love to come back out when his neck and nose aren’t as big of an issue and he’s back to 30+ scoring outputs along with 7rbs and 6 ast games. Funny how quickly fairweather fans turn.

[Maniac MaciejParticipant]

"He is the second best player ever behind MJ and he aint done yet."

I think this is why the Kobe-haters hate on Kobe…like I said earlier, he’s arguably never been the best player in the league, so how can he be considered the 2nd-best player of all-time? He’s a top 10-15 player of all-time, anything beyond that is a tough argument.

I agree with iguanapops, though. He’ll come back and have a 15-for-24, 40 point game sometime soon, and everyone will be saying "See, Kobe is the 2nd best of all-time!"

 

[PulseGlazerParticipant]

I hate Kobe, like… a lot, but he’s as good or better than the Irving, West class of player and pretty clearly below the Magic, Bird, Jordan class.  As far as during his career, I’d still take Duncan over him.

[Mr. 19134Participant]

 Kobe might be the 2nd best SG ever but no way is he the 2nd best ever period.  Kobe has had so much luck for him to get what he’s got.  If you check the stats not only does Kobe not even come close to Jordan’s final averages. but Shaq obviously had better numbers then Pippen far better, but Pau Gasol’ numbers during the finals are considerably better then Pippens were.  Meaning Kobe has actually had way better support to get them rings.  Facts or facts you can look the stats up if you don’t believe me.  And we all know Pau should of won the MVP of the last finals he won.

I’m not tryna take anything away from Kobe but I’m not giving him stuff he hasn’t earned yet either.  That whole "I have no rival" interview said everything about Kobe.  He’s out for personnel glory not to win for his team.  That’s the big difference between him and players like Magic who is really the best Laker of all time.  

For great players it’s harder to rack up assists and make your teammates better then it is to score a lot.  

[Tobe BryantParticipant]

If I was just a casual user on this site, I’d think you guys were demeaning Kobe and pretty much saying he was washed up. But allow me to offer you some perspective about Kobe from a basketball player’s standpoint.

Ever played a pick-up game or some sort of basketball and hit let’s say about 3 or 4 shots in a row. Well that feelign you get when this happens alters your thoughts. It makes you say, "I need the ball, I’m hot and I know I can’t miss!" Your ryhthm is ridiculous and you are looking to score whenever the rock touches your hands. It’s a great feeling.

Now unlike Kobe, you probably wouldn’t be playing with two of the league’s best big men, but the thing about Kobe is the absolutely crazy scoring games that this guy has registered. I truly believe that Kobe THINKS he can hit EVERY shot he takes. 81 pts, 62 in 3 quarters, 9 straight 40 pt. games, 12 threes in one ball game, 42 points in one half, and several 50 point performances will get you that mentality. Kobe literally lives by the motto that great shooters keep shooting. I don’t know why, but he just keeps shooting regardless of how many he misses. Kobe doesn’t need to shoot 57 shots in two games. It’s not acceptable AT ALL!!!

Mike Brown must stop the madness. He has got to devise a gameplan to get Kobe less shots and fed Pau and Andrew a little more. Kupchak also needs to go ahead and gamble on Arenas, and look to get some PG and SF help.

[Ghost01Participant]

 He is the second best player ever behind MJ and he aint done yet.

 

L…M….F….A….O

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

Saying Kobe is the 2nd best player of all time isnt as far fetched as people think..He has the total package when it comes to things you want from a nba player,the athleticism,outside shooting,aggressiveness,showmanship,clutch,hates to lose,and maybe a better all around offensive game then Jordan or any player that has ever played..

But to say he’s clearly the 2nd best player of all time, will there are alot of reasons to name a few other guys..I cant speak about Wilt or Russell becuz they were long before my time..But i did see Magic & Bird play both live and on tv…Magic & Bird dominated from a team standpoint,they were great individually,but they also made their teammates better..And thats something you have to take into account when you evaluate But Kobe’s selfishness is whats drove him to be great…I remember when Dr.J was playing,people were saying he was better then Magic or Bird,but after his career ended and their careers ended you could see they were better players..Maybe Kobe wont be fully appreciated until he retires…

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

"He is the second best player ever behind MJ and he aint done yet"

I cannot fathom how ridiculous that statement truly is…  

To be honest, I’m not even sure he’s the greatest Laker to play the game.  The simple fact that he doesn’t make his teammates better, at all, is what keeps me from saying he’s better than Magic.  Yeah, they feed off his double-teams but that’s not the same as making them better.  Also, the fact that he’s never trusted his teammates keeps him at the 2nd greatest Laker.

[DurantsWingspan]

He is the second best player ever behind MJ and he aint done yet

Wowwwww! You really do not have ANY respect for the legends or have no clue how truly great they were. You are telling me that having Kobe on your team will help you win more games than having Magic? More games than Shaq? Kareem? Wilt? I’ll give you Jerry West, but Wilt, Magic, Kareem, or Shaq would OBVIOUSLY help your team more than Kobe. The fact that you even think that Kobe is the 2nd best ever just shows that you either don’t know much about basketball or are so biased towards Kobe that it impairs your ability to judge how good a basketball player is. It is as simple as that. You can not even argue basketball with someone who sees things from that distorted of a view.

[Snubs15Participant]

Kobe shoots too much, but without Kobe the Lakers have 5 less championships. And all those Laker championships came with Kobe shooting the ball too much, so clearly its not that big of a deal. He’s done it his whole career and the Lakers have been one of the most successful teams in the past decade with him shooting so many shots. I would agree that taking less shots could make the Lakers a better team, but thats just not gonna happen because Kobe has an ego.

You can nitpick all you want but at the end of the day Kobe makes a million more great plays than he does bad and he has hit wayy too many clutch shots in his career to not be considered clutch. Also, im pretty sure he hit more clutch buzzer beating game winners in the 2009-2010 season alone than Lebron has hit in his entire career so far.

Kobe wants to take the last shot, triple teamed or not. Lebron is scared to take the last shot. Thats the difference to me.

[llperez]

disagree all you want guys, kobe is the second best ever. Kareem is the only guy i think might drop kobe down to third. BUt its funny you guys are knocking him during his 16th nba season and saying how guys like magic and bird are clearly better when they werent even in the league for 16 years. Dude is still bringing it. ANd you can argue he was never the best player in the league and i would disagree with you completely.

[NbanflguyParticipant]

llperez you are the biggest LA homer ever

[llperez]

maybe. But give me guys who are better then kobe all time? I mean you can argue magic, kareem, bird, wilt, robertson and a few other guys. BUt ill take kobes career over any of them. People too often remember the past accomplishments and forget the negatives like those guys could do no wrong just like im sure in 20 years people will remember kobe much more positively then they do now.

Magic and bird had hall of famers around them galore, more so then kobe and neither won more rings then kobe. They also couldnt defend even averagely let alone at an elite level like kobe. Wilt was a stats galore player who won 2 rings. And one of those was as the third option. Shaq was more dominant then anyone in his prime, but how long was his prime? I mean he was always lazy and getting injured and not taking care of his body. He was routinely swept out of the playoffs every year until kobe came along. Shaq also couldnt be given the ball in the final minutes of games cause he couldnt make ft’s so kobe was always the closer.

If you disagree with kobe as number 2, thats fine, i wouldnt argue. But to suggest that any of those guys are clearly better is ludicrous and no less biased then my opinion. Kobe is on a down stretch right now so get ahead and kick whiile you can. BUt when he wins his 6th ring, we’ll see what you have to say then.

[Ghost01Participant]

 llperez- Again, your points mean nothing. Who cares if hes been in the league for 16 years? 

Recap to a post I already made on Kobe’s career:

2000: Beat Indy (whose best players were Jalen Rose and a semi-washed up Reggie). Shaq was the MVP.

2001: Beat Philly (Biggest one man team in the history of the Finals). Shaq was the MVP.

2002: Beat New Jersey (Jason Kidd? K Mart? Kerry Kittles?). Shaq was the MVP.

2004: Choke to Pistons 4 games to 1 in Finals.

2005: Miss playoffs

2006: Quits on his team in Game 7 in the playoffs

2007: Whines about a trade

2008: "Comeback Year" Capped with the 39 Point beatdown to end his season. How many times has MJ, Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc ever ended the finals by losing by 39 points?

2009: They year I will give Kobe the most credit. Orlando was an OKAY finals team, Kobe played well, deserved the MVP.

2010: Almost chokes the season with a horrible air ball vs PHX, bailed out by Metta. Bailed out by Perkins injury, Celtics horrendous game 7.

2011: The "favorites" Bow out in 4 to Dallas. Another BEATDOWN to end the series.

 

[llperez]

my points mean nothing without even addressing them? Okay, then your points mean nothing. That was easy.

[llperez]

also, you need to realize when bringing up how mediocre those early 2000 east squads were the lakers played in the finals, that the west was fricking stacked. more so then today. Sac, prtland, san antonio etc… The titles were as hard as ever, just not in the finals.

[DurantsWingspan]

It is not about who anyone had around them. You say we hate Kobe while he is down, but I am not talking about Kobe at this older age, I am talking about Kobe when he wast at his best. I am just talking about the BEST basketball players of all time. There is no way Kobe Bryant is or ever was a better basketball player than Wilt Chamberlain. How can you honestly say that? Wilt dominated the NBA more than anyone, quite possibly even Jordan arguably. Bird and Magic? I don’t think I need to explain. They could dominate the game even more so than Kobe, while also making their teamates better. You want to talk about clutch? I think those two have him beat pretty easily. The Big O, Shaq, Bill Russell, Kareem, ect. I mean you honestly think that he dominated the game more then any of those guys? Come one man that is just being unreasonably biased, to the point where it hurts your knowledge of basketball. You can like your team and player, but try and be at least decently reasonable on how you view them as basketball players. I mean, I can understand you thinking Kobe is better than LeBron. I think otherwise, but that is atleast debatable. I can understand you thinking Kobe was the best player in the league for a large majority of his career. I would say that Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan were more dominant because Tim was a great team player and won rings, and Kevin Garnett was one of the most versatile forwards ever, but I can see you thinking otherwise and going with Kobe because it is debatable. But to say Kobe is the 2nd best to ever play basketball? I think even you know deep down that is unbelievably wrong, because I know you know basketball more than that. 

[ChrisCrossParticipant]

 You need to realize Lakers would not have won some of those finals if a certain ref hadn’t screwed the Kings…..just saying, still don’t understand why people forgot about that. Also about Kobe, talent and ability wise you could argue he is as good as any was, but as far as fitting in a team, making others better and making the team better he has to take a hit. That’s the thing with Kobe, you gotta take the good with the bad, he can win you games with hot shooting just like he can loose games with god-awful shot selection…that’s just the player he is. If Kobe did ever have a good PG unlike Fisher, Kobe could have been a lot more efficiant. Oh well, I think Kobe’s done well for himself

[llperez]

@durantswingspan, i think you are going way overboard on how much you think those other guys dominated basketball more then kobe. I mean i fully understand how non laker fans would not put kobe number 2, but to say its absolutey unreasonable? Seriously look at those other guys you listed? Wilt dominated more? He also couldnt make ft’s, had no moves outside of 5 feet, and was treated as a freak of nature athlete. By that I mean he averaged more then 48 minutes one season simply because people paid to see him and he stayed on the court regardless of score. He got the ball every time simply cause the game was about trying to make some money for small market teams and thats what wilt brought. He only won one title as the man and that doesnt alarm you a little about how great he was? The big O, have you seen his jumper? I know that sounds small, but seriously a gaurd with absolutely no jumper. A gaurd who would make rajon rondo look like mark price would not by any means dominate in todays game. The fact he stuffed box scores in an era where stats were WAY above what they are now and shot attempts were up about 30% from todays game and scores were way up is not as great as it sounds. And you bring up shaq again. Ill repeat, shaq was the most dominat player in his prime, but how long was his prime? I mean seriously only a few years. Most his prime years he was injured/and or lazy and didnt bring it nightly. Couldnt close games. People talk about him being more dominant and improtant then kobe those first 3 rings, but go back and look at the western finals where the ring was really won. KObe averaged JUST as many points in 2001 and 2202 western finals as shaq did and was also facilitating and gaurding the other teams best every night. Tex Winter(the invetor of the triangle and former bulls assistant coach) said himself that jordan would never have got  30 a night had he played with shaq. That doesnt mean jordan wasnt more improtatn then shaq, just that shaq who can dominate his matchup for 43 minutes of the game was obviously where yu would go most the time. You bring up bird and magic ( and for the record not only am i student of the game who has watched countless hours of replays from the 80’s but i actually watched those guys live their last season or two) they were great, but a lot of their credit is for being the faces of the league when it first became marketable. They were the spectacular guys who got all the recognition. But when you break down them as individual players, they had plenty of flaws. People forget when the LA newspapers gave Magic the nickname "tragic" johnson after the nba finals i believe around 82-84 when he struggled and failed down the stretch of games. They forget that he couldnt gaurd pg’s in the 80’s when the pg position was significantly slower and less offensively aggressive and athelitc as it is today. I mean he would look like a speed bump if tried to keep up with todays pg’s. Same goes for bird, bird only won 3 rings, was much less dynamic as a scorer and played in an era where the sf position was more about power basketball and playing close to the rim as opposed to todays atheletes who can get out and handle the ball better and shoot better fromt he perimter then the likes of james worthy, adrian dantly, mark aguiire, bernard king, Dr J, larry nance etc… ALl great sf’s, but the position was slower and more interior oriented and thus allowed for bird to dominate a little mor ewith his crafty style of game.

In any case, im done with this thread. I can fully understand why some people would say kobe is not number 2. Fact is number 2 is widely open for debate. But to say someone has to be crazy or lacks all credibility to suggest kobe is number 2, well to me that means that person is unreasonable and is unworthy of my time debating. I mean Like I said, kobe isnt even close to his prime right now. He had the unluxury of going through a compelte team rebuilding phase at his very prime(something magic, bird, and jordan didnt have to deal with) and today well past his prime he is giving guys the business and leading the nba inscoring and doing it on one of the best teams. SO he has 2 bad games in a row and everyone forgets the previous 3-4 games where he scored 30+ on 50% shooting every night and won. He just cant do it as consistently at this age anymore and playing through injuries that most guys wouldt suit up with.

 

[iguapops420Participant]

 @TOL23, you saying that Kobe doesn’t make his teammates better at all has to be the most ignorantbasketball related statement I’ve heard all year. It’s funny how scrubs like Smush Parker can be a legit starting PG beside of Kobe Bryant or a man who never so much as won a playoff game prior, joins Kobe and makes it to the finals in year 1 and wins the following 2. Every player who plays with Kobe consitently shoots a better percent. 

Hell, Shaq has even gone on record as has Phil saying how Kobe sacrificed his own game when he was younger by becoming the facilitator who made everyone including Shaq better. Kobe was never a facilitating type before joining Shaq and often told Phil that he could dominate in the post and Phil would reply"I kow Kobe, but I can’t take Shaq off the post for you without him getting upset". So again, Kobe had to LEARN to play as ball handler Pseudo PG for the sake of the team and making the others better for the bigger picture. We as fans have never even gotten to see the true Kobe who simply gets to score/rebound/and defend. Kobe has always had to play a combination Jordan/Pippen role. I’ll shut up after this because the simple hatred going on in this post is enough for me. Funny how quick the tunes are going to change soon. BTW, whoever brought up the Kings game, STFU and quit crying. It was 10 years ago and your team is now in NBA pergatory. Deal with it. Michael Jordan got to commit an offensive foul by pushing off for his shot against Byron Russel but you don’t here the Utah fans still crying about it. Games get called wrong, calls aren’t always made. It’s basketball, deal with it and move the F on.

[ChrisCrossParticipant]

 I brought up the Kings, not a fan (Pacers fan). "Games get called wrong, calls aren’t always made. It’s basketball, deal with it and move the F on." That has to be the most ignorant statement, you realize the ref made bad calls against the Kings on PURPOSE because of bets he made?!?!?!?! Much different from missing a call. A ref screwed them on purpose and people act like it’s no biggie because it happened over 10 yrs ago (which isn’t all that long ago). How would you feel if your favorite team got screwed over by ref? Imagine being Chris Webber, Divac, Bobby Jackson, Doug Christie knowing a greedy ref screwed you over for money and now your left without a ring wondering what could have been. 

[PulseGlazerParticipant]

Yeah, the Kings being jobbed out that way is inexcusable.  I almost stopped watching the NBA at the time then all over again when we found out why.  Greatest miscarriage of justice in sports that no one cares about.

[Maniac MaciejParticipant]

 Tim Duncan > Kobe.

So, that moves Kobe down to at least #3.

[iguapops420Participant]

 Yeah because Kobe had Shaq and Pau Gasol. I guess those scrubs David Robinson,Tony Parker, and MAnu Ginobli  that Duncan played with are so glad they had Timmy there to do all of the work while they sat around and got credit for it. SMH.

[Maniac MaciejParticipant]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_top_10.html

Kobe-haters and Kobe-backers alike will enjoy spinning this stat to support their opinion.

My opinion is that Tim Duncan was better than Kobe Bryant…it had nothing to do with their teammates.

[DurantsWingspan]

Kobe’s best feature? Scoring. So one year he goes all in, shoots as much as he can. 35 PPG? Very, very impressive. But 50PPG, 28RPG? Not even close. How about the 8APG Wilt got one year? I don’t care if Wilt couldn’t hit free throws, I don’t care if he was lazy or if he was a freak of nature. He stil was WAY better and more dominant of a basketball player than Kobe Bryant every was. I don’t care if he played 48 minutes a game. He played 48 minutes a game because he could. He was that athletic. He didn’t foul too much liek other big men and he didn’t tire quick. If Kobe played 48 minutes  a game, you really think that he is going to dominate as much as Wilt Chamberlain? I mean the only argument I could see you making is that it was easier to dominate than because players were smaller and less athletic and if Wilt was in our generation he wouldn’t dominate as much. My counter to that is that you have to compare players to their generations, because if they were in our generation they would have access to all of our training methods and would be even bigger and stronger then they were and it equals it out.

[SteroidParticipant]

Bynum and Gasol aren’t good enough for Kobe to ride their coat tails. Bynum has been playing great this season minus his poor effort sometimes, but Gasol is clearly out of his element. Bynum is playing better when he gets doubled, but Gasol has regressed into more of a jump shooter now, and he gets punked off the block. It’s easy to say just dump the ball off to Gasol or Bynum. Things must be taking that into context. No one respects the Lakers’ shooters, so that makes just dumping the ball off in the post that much harder.

 

And I’m just going to leave this up here: food for thought… http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi

Yeah, Kobe shoots too much, but it’s a multitude of things that’s wrong with the Lakers, from personel to the system. In order for an inside outside game to work, there needs to be better shooting, from a team perspective. In a way, it makes sense why Kobe wants to take all the shots with Fisher and MWP on the perimeter with him. Goudelock really should be starting over Fisher. He would be a decent pseudo PG considering Fisher is the starter.

[Snubs15Participant]

Wilt Chamberlain dominated the NBA more than anyone and thats a fact, but he only has 2 championship rings. If he were the greatest player of all time he would have more rings to show for.

Being great is not just putting up huge numbers. You gotta win to be the best and Wilt has 2 to Kobe’s 5. There is another argument in Kobe’s Favour. And I also don’t think Shaq carried Kobe to the 3 titles, the Lakers won as a team, Kobe was equally important in winning those titles.

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