"He is the second best player ever behind MJ and he aint done yet"
I cannot fathom how ridiculous that statement truly is...
To be honest, I'm not even sure he's the greatest Laker to play the game. The simple fact that he doesn't make his teammates better, at all, is what keeps me from saying he's better than Magic. Yeah, they feed off his double-teams but that's not the same as making them better. Also, the fact that he's never trusted his teammates keeps him at the 2nd greatest Laker.
He is the second best player ever behind MJ and he aint done yet
Wowwwww! You really do not have ANY respect for the legends or have no clue how truly great they were. You are telling me that having Kobe on your team will help you win more games than having Magic? More games than Shaq? Kareem? Wilt? I'll give you Jerry West, but Wilt, Magic, Kareem, or Shaq would OBVIOUSLY help your team more than Kobe. The fact that you even think that Kobe is the 2nd best ever just shows that you either don't know much about basketball or are so biased towards Kobe that it impairs your ability to judge how good a basketball player is. It is as simple as that. You can not even argue basketball with someone who sees things from that distorted of a view.
Kobe shoots too much, but without Kobe the Lakers have 5 less championships. And all those Laker championships came with Kobe shooting the ball too much, so clearly its not that big of a deal. He's done it his whole career and the Lakers have been one of the most successful teams in the past decade with him shooting so many shots. I would agree that taking less shots could make the Lakers a better team, but thats just not gonna happen because Kobe has an ego.
You can nitpick all you want but at the end of the day Kobe makes a million more great plays than he does bad and he has hit wayy too many clutch shots in his career to not be considered clutch. Also, im pretty sure he hit more clutch buzzer beating game winners in the 2009-2010 season alone than Lebron has hit in his entire career so far.
Kobe wants to take the last shot, triple teamed or not. Lebron is scared to take the last shot. Thats the difference to me.
disagree all you want guys, kobe is the second best ever. Kareem is the only guy i think might drop kobe down to third. BUt its funny you guys are knocking him during his 16th nba season and saying how guys like magic and bird are clearly better when they werent even in the league for 16 years. Dude is still bringing it. ANd you can argue he was never the best player in the league and i would disagree with you completely.
llperez you are the biggest LA homer ever
maybe. But give me guys who are better then kobe all time? I mean you can argue magic, kareem, bird, wilt, robertson and a few other guys. BUt ill take kobes career over any of them. People too often remember the past accomplishments and forget the negatives like those guys could do no wrong just like im sure in 20 years people will remember kobe much more positively then they do now.
Magic and bird had hall of famers around them galore, more so then kobe and neither won more rings then kobe. They also couldnt defend even averagely let alone at an elite level like kobe. Wilt was a stats galore player who won 2 rings. And one of those was as the third option. Shaq was more dominant then anyone in his prime, but how long was his prime? I mean he was always lazy and getting injured and not taking care of his body. He was routinely swept out of the playoffs every year until kobe came along. Shaq also couldnt be given the ball in the final minutes of games cause he couldnt make ft's so kobe was always the closer.
If you disagree with kobe as number 2, thats fine, i wouldnt argue. But to suggest that any of those guys are clearly better is ludicrous and no less biased then my opinion. Kobe is on a down stretch right now so get ahead and kick whiile you can. BUt when he wins his 6th ring, we'll see what you have to say then.
llperez- Again, your points mean nothing. Who cares if hes been in the league for 16 years?
Recap to a post I already made on Kobe's career:
2000: Beat Indy (whose best players were Jalen Rose and a semi-washed up Reggie). Shaq was the MVP.
2001: Beat Philly (Biggest one man team in the history of the Finals). Shaq was the MVP.
2002: Beat New Jersey (Jason Kidd? K Mart? Kerry Kittles?). Shaq was the MVP.
2004: Choke to Pistons 4 games to 1 in Finals.
2005: Miss playoffs
2006: Quits on his team in Game 7 in the playoffs
2007: Whines about a trade
2008: "Comeback Year" Capped with the 39 Point beatdown to end his season. How many times has MJ, Kareem, Magic, Bird, etc ever ended the finals by losing by 39 points?
2009: They year I will give Kobe the most credit. Orlando was an OKAY finals team, Kobe played well, deserved the MVP.
2010: Almost chokes the season with a horrible air ball vs PHX, bailed out by Metta. Bailed out by Perkins injury, Celtics horrendous game 7.
2011: The "favorites" Bow out in 4 to Dallas. Another BEATDOWN to end the series.
my points mean nothing without even addressing them? Okay, then your points mean nothing. That was easy.
also, you need to realize when bringing up how mediocre those early 2000 east squads were the lakers played in the finals, that the west was fricking stacked. more so then today. Sac, prtland, san antonio etc... The titles were as hard as ever, just not in the finals.
It is not about who anyone had around them. You say we hate Kobe while he is down, but I am not talking about Kobe at this older age, I am talking about Kobe when he wast at his best. I am just talking about the BEST basketball players of all time. There is no way Kobe Bryant is or ever was a better basketball player than Wilt Chamberlain. How can you honestly say that? Wilt dominated the NBA more than anyone, quite possibly even Jordan arguably. Bird and Magic? I don't think I need to explain. They could dominate the game even more so than Kobe, while also making their teamates better. You want to talk about clutch? I think those two have him beat pretty easily. The Big O, Shaq, Bill Russell, Kareem, ect. I mean you honestly think that he dominated the game more then any of those guys? Come one man that is just being unreasonably biased, to the point where it hurts your knowledge of basketball. You can like your team and player, but try and be at least decently reasonable on how you view them as basketball players. I mean, I can understand you thinking Kobe is better than LeBron. I think otherwise, but that is atleast debatable. I can understand you thinking Kobe was the best player in the league for a large majority of his career. I would say that Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan were more dominant because Tim was a great team player and won rings, and Kevin Garnett was one of the most versatile forwards ever, but I can see you thinking otherwise and going with Kobe because it is debatable. But to say Kobe is the 2nd best to ever play basketball? I think even you know deep down that is unbelievably wrong, because I know you know basketball more than that.
You need to realize Lakers would not have won some of those finals if a certain ref hadn't screwed the Kings.....just saying, still don't understand why people forgot about that. Also about Kobe, talent and ability wise you could argue he is as good as any was, but as far as fitting in a team, making others better and making the team better he has to take a hit. That's the thing with Kobe, you gotta take the good with the bad, he can win you games with hot shooting just like he can loose games with god-awful shot selection...that's just the player he is. If Kobe did ever have a good PG unlike Fisher, Kobe could have been a lot more efficiant. Oh well, I think Kobe's done well for himself
@durantswingspan, i think you are going way overboard on how much you think those other guys dominated basketball more then kobe. I mean i fully understand how non laker fans would not put kobe number 2, but to say its absolutey unreasonable? Seriously look at those other guys you listed? Wilt dominated more? He also couldnt make ft's, had no moves outside of 5 feet, and was treated as a freak of nature athlete. By that I mean he averaged more then 48 minutes one season simply because people paid to see him and he stayed on the court regardless of score. He got the ball every time simply cause the game was about trying to make some money for small market teams and thats what wilt brought. He only won one title as the man and that doesnt alarm you a little about how great he was? The big O, have you seen his jumper? I know that sounds small, but seriously a gaurd with absolutely no jumper. A gaurd who would make rajon rondo look like mark price would not by any means dominate in todays game. The fact he stuffed box scores in an era where stats were WAY above what they are now and shot attempts were up about 30% from todays game and scores were way up is not as great as it sounds. And you bring up shaq again. Ill repeat, shaq was the most dominat player in his prime, but how long was his prime? I mean seriously only a few years. Most his prime years he was injured/and or lazy and didnt bring it nightly. Couldnt close games. People talk about him being more dominant and improtant then kobe those first 3 rings, but go back and look at the western finals where the ring was really won. KObe averaged JUST as many points in 2001 and 2202 western finals as shaq did and was also facilitating and gaurding the other teams best every night. Tex Winter(the invetor of the triangle and former bulls assistant coach) said himself that jordan would never have got 30 a night had he played with shaq. That doesnt mean jordan wasnt more improtatn then shaq, just that shaq who can dominate his matchup for 43 minutes of the game was obviously where yu would go most the time. You bring up bird and magic ( and for the record not only am i student of the game who has watched countless hours of replays from the 80's but i actually watched those guys live their last season or two) they were great, but a lot of their credit is for being the faces of the league when it first became marketable. They were the spectacular guys who got all the recognition. But when you break down them as individual players, they had plenty of flaws. People forget when the LA newspapers gave Magic the nickname "tragic" johnson after the nba finals i believe around 82-84 when he struggled and failed down the stretch of games. They forget that he couldnt gaurd pg's in the 80's when the pg position was significantly slower and less offensively aggressive and athelitc as it is today. I mean he would look like a speed bump if tried to keep up with todays pg's. Same goes for bird, bird only won 3 rings, was much less dynamic as a scorer and played in an era where the sf position was more about power basketball and playing close to the rim as opposed to todays atheletes who can get out and handle the ball better and shoot better fromt he perimter then the likes of james worthy, adrian dantly, mark aguiire, bernard king, Dr J, larry nance etc... ALl great sf's, but the position was slower and more interior oriented and thus allowed for bird to dominate a little mor ewith his crafty style of game.
In any case, im done with this thread. I can fully understand why some people would say kobe is not number 2. Fact is number 2 is widely open for debate. But to say someone has to be crazy or lacks all credibility to suggest kobe is number 2, well to me that means that person is unreasonable and is unworthy of my time debating. I mean Like I said, kobe isnt even close to his prime right now. He had the unluxury of going through a compelte team rebuilding phase at his very prime(something magic, bird, and jordan didnt have to deal with) and today well past his prime he is giving guys the business and leading the nba inscoring and doing it on one of the best teams. SO he has 2 bad games in a row and everyone forgets the previous 3-4 games where he scored 30+ on 50% shooting every night and won. He just cant do it as consistently at this age anymore and playing through injuries that most guys wouldt suit up with.
@TOL23, you saying that Kobe doesn't make his teammates better at all has to be the most ignorantbasketball related statement I've heard all year. It's funny how scrubs like Smush Parker can be a legit starting PG beside of Kobe Bryant or a man who never so much as won a playoff game prior, joins Kobe and makes it to the finals in year 1 and wins the following 2. Every player who plays with Kobe consitently shoots a better percent.
Hell, Shaq has even gone on record as has Phil saying how Kobe sacrificed his own game when he was younger by becoming the facilitator who made everyone including Shaq better. Kobe was never a facilitating type before joining Shaq and often told Phil that he could dominate in the post and Phil would reply"I kow Kobe, but I can't take Shaq off the post for you without him getting upset". So again, Kobe had to LEARN to play as ball handler Pseudo PG for the sake of the team and making the others better for the bigger picture. We as fans have never even gotten to see the true Kobe who simply gets to score/rebound/and defend. Kobe has always had to play a combination Jordan/Pippen role. I'll shut up after this because the simple hatred going on in this post is enough for me. Funny how quick the tunes are going to change soon. BTW, whoever brought up the Kings game, STFU and quit crying. It was 10 years ago and your team is now in NBA pergatory. Deal with it. Michael Jordan got to commit an offensive foul by pushing off for his shot against Byron Russel but you don't here the Utah fans still crying about it. Games get called wrong, calls aren't always made. It's basketball, deal with it and move the F on.
I brought up the Kings, not a fan (Pacers fan). "Games get called wrong, calls aren't always made. It's basketball, deal with it and move the F on." That has to be the most ignorant statement, you realize the ref made bad calls against the Kings on PURPOSE because of bets he made?!?!?!?! Much different from missing a call. A ref screwed them on purpose and people act like it's no biggie because it happened over 10 yrs ago (which isn't all that long ago). How would you feel if your favorite team got screwed over by ref? Imagine being Chris Webber, Divac, Bobby Jackson, Doug Christie knowing a greedy ref screwed you over for money and now your left without a ring wondering what could have been.
Yeah, the Kings being jobbed out that way is inexcusable. I almost stopped watching the NBA at the time then all over again when we found out why. Greatest miscarriage of justice in sports that no one cares about.
Tim Duncan > Kobe.
So, that moves Kobe down to at least #3.
Yeah because Kobe had Shaq and Pau Gasol. I guess those scrubs David Robinson,Tony Parker, and MAnu Ginobli that Duncan played with are so glad they had Timmy there to do all of the work while they sat around and got credit for it. SMH.
Kobe-haters and Kobe-backers alike will enjoy spinning this stat to support their opinion.
My opinion is that Tim Duncan was better than Kobe Bryant...it had nothing to do with their teammates.
Kobe's best feature? Scoring. So one year he goes all in, shoots as much as he can. 35 PPG? Very, very impressive. But 50PPG, 28RPG? Not even close. How about the 8APG Wilt got one year? I don't care if Wilt couldn't hit free throws, I don't care if he was lazy or if he was a freak of nature. He stil was WAY better and more dominant of a basketball player than Kobe Bryant every was. I don't care if he played 48 minutes a game. He played 48 minutes a game because he could. He was that athletic. He didn't foul too much liek other big men and he didn't tire quick. If Kobe played 48 minutes a game, you really think that he is going to dominate as much as Wilt Chamberlain? I mean the only argument I could see you making is that it was easier to dominate than because players were smaller and less athletic and if Wilt was in our generation he wouldn't dominate as much. My counter to that is that you have to compare players to their generations, because if they were in our generation they would have access to all of our training methods and would be even bigger and stronger then they were and it equals it out.
Bynum and Gasol aren't good enough for Kobe to ride their coat tails. Bynum has been playing great this season minus his poor effort sometimes, but Gasol is clearly out of his element. Bynum is playing better when he gets doubled, but Gasol has regressed into more of a jump shooter now, and he gets punked off the block. It's easy to say just dump the ball off to Gasol or Bynum. Things must be taking that into context. No one respects the Lakers' shooters, so that makes just dumping the ball off in the post that much harder.
And I'm just going to leave this up here: food for thought... www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi
Yeah, Kobe shoots too much, but it's a multitude of things that's wrong with the Lakers, from personel to the system. In order for an inside outside game to work, there needs to be better shooting, from a team perspective. In a way, it makes sense why Kobe wants to take all the shots with Fisher and MWP on the perimeter with him. Goudelock really should be starting over Fisher. He would be a decent pseudo PG considering Fisher is the starter.
Wilt Chamberlain dominated the NBA more than anyone and thats a fact, but he only has 2 championship rings. If he were the greatest player of all time he would have more rings to show for.
Being great is not just putting up huge numbers. You gotta win to be the best and Wilt has 2 to Kobe's 5. There is another argument in Kobe's Favour. And I also don't think Shaq carried Kobe to the 3 titles, the Lakers won as a team, Kobe was equally important in winning those titles.