I am a huge advocate of Kobe, but his play is becoming disturbing to me. Kobe feels that he must shoot under any circumstances. I understand this is who he has been all of his career, but he is on the decline, and has two legit threats in the post that he doesnt use enough.
Last night against the woeful Detroit Pistons Kobe went 8-26- 22points, Bynum went 13-18 30 points, and Pau Gasol 8-14 20 points. At what point will Kobe realize that Bynum is a star and Pau Gasol will help them get far? Say what you want, but it is better to make the best basketball play, rather than trying to be spectacular.
There is no need for most coaches in the league, because coaches like Mike Brown do not have the heart to tell a star like Kobe, " hey you are shooting to much tonight, make sure you get the big guys more involved". People kill Lebron (I hate Lebron) on not taking the last shots, but it is better to make the best play than take a terrible shot just to say I took it. Sadly that is Kobe, I took the shot, but some of his shot selections are terrible, especially when you have a dominant big men.
Does anybody beside myself, believe Kobe will not sacrifice personal glory over winnings? That he will not admit that maybe he should shoot less, and that the team needs to go thru their big men? I never thought I would say this, but to me it seems like he is more set on winnings a scoring title more than a ring.
I firmly believe that if Kobe wants a sixth ring, that he will have to ride the backs of Bynum and Gasol to get it done.
Dude, when where you been for the past 10 years? This is NOTHING NEW!!! Phil said, Shaq said, even Magic said it..But Mike Brown is a pitiful offensive coach,he doesnt do a good job of rotating players off the bench..He's a star player's type of coach,becuz he lets them do their thing..He let Lebron run the show in Cleveland..They were successful,but when it appeared that they would never win a ring,thats when he was run out of town,now it appears the same thing might be happening in LA....
His biggest weakness, for sure, has always been his propensity for taking low-percentage shots. He may be a great shooter, but his FG percentages don't indicate that like they should. If he would just make the smart pass every now and then instead of firing up an off-balance fadeaway...
On the offensive side, I think that's primarily what puts him a notch below MJ historically, and LeBron currently.
1 thing i like about Kobe is that even if he misses a last second shot,he's not afraid to take it the next game if he has a chance..Lebron always seem to be in a team oriented mold..The other night he brought his team all the way back,but he gave up the last second shot to Haslem...He seems to play the last few seconds of a game the same way he plays the other 3 quarters,he has to take completely over the game for 4 quarters..
This is just a guess on the numbers...
Kobe will probably hit a contested last-second jumper about 1 out of every 3 times.
Udonis Haslem will probably hit a (mostly) wide-open jumpshot from the free throw line 1 out of every 2 times.
What's the better play? My belief is that making the right basketball play is always the primary goal, regardless of how much time is left on the clock.
^^ what kinda post is that?? no facts, no stats, just guessing on numbers? :-S
You want stats. Go to 82games and click on their clutch stats. They have them for the last four seasons, including this season. Clutch time is fourth quarter or overtime, last five minutes, neither team has more than a five point lead. But here is a little of the stats.
Kobe's clutch stats continue to be fairly mediocre in percentages but very high in volume. This year he is shooting 28% during clutch time. Considering some of those shots must be of the easier variety, including some dunks, I think it is generous to say that Kobe would shoot as high as 33% on last second contested jumpers. Really, this year, he is probably dropping down in the 25% range on those end of game jumpers.
Note that Haslem is equally bad during clutch time. There is something about the pressure of taking a last second jumper, even an easy one like Haslem was set up for, that makes it a harder shot. So I don't know if Haslem is really going to hit game winning jumpers from 18 feet 50% of the time no matter how open he is. All in all, I agree with the Lebron play at the end of the game for two reasons. One, Haslem was set up for an easy jumper and I bet he hits 40% of the time which is probably better than Lebron when Lebron is double teamed unless Lebron can get all the way to the rim. Two, Haslem got some experience and a vote of confidence from Lebron which might help them when the games count (i.e., in the playoffs). Lebron is basically saying, I trust everyone on this team to make key plays down the stretch. Kobe is sh!tting all over his team when he takes over at the end of every game.
Incidentally, Lebron's clutch time stats are, as one who is not a hater would expect, absolutely silly.
During clutch time, on a per 48 minute basis, he is averaging 36 points, 19 rebounds, 13 assists, 2 blocks and 2 steals. He is just producing like crazy all across the floor during clutch time this year. Better than last year. Though not quiet as good as his last year in Clevaland. Yes, he is only shooting 40%, but it is hard to shoot a lot during clutch time and have a high shooting percentage because the refs do swallow their whistles and defenses do get away with some stuff.
Cleveland clutch time stats from 2010:
66 points per game, 49% shooting, 16 rebounds, 8 assists, 3 blocks, 3 steals. Mind blowing!
you think he has to ride on the backs of bynum and gasol?!?! i agree he should get them more involved and should definitely take fewer ill advised 3 pointers on a turn fade with a hand in his face. ill even agree that hes on the decline, but hes still a top three player in the nba, and probably has more experience than anyone in the league right now. in order for them to win a championship he needs help, but if you think the ball shouldnt be in his hands during crunch time then i wanna see your ring collection cause five says your wrong. its not kobe taking personal glory over winning. he truly believes they have the best chance to win if the ball is in his hands and if you ask any of his teammates ever (besides shaq who has one of the biggest ego's in nba history) i bet they will agree.
You don't watch Kobe much do you? He's done that his entire career and you're noticing it now?
I am not a LeBron or Kobe fan, I am a Durant fan but an unbiased one. It is getting sickening that every single basketball fan buys into this whole Lebron not being clutch thing. Look at the stats. He is twice as good as Kobe in the clutch. Not only shooting, scoring, and field goal percentage, but also pretty much every category across the board. Kobe has always been a gunner and although he is great, that is why he will never be a top ten player. Yeah his stats might look good and he might have rings, but there is no way he is as good as the media portrays him to be and everyone buys into. These stats were very refreshing. Thank you Tall Man.
It is crazy how we hear these things that LeBron is LeChoke, when he is good in the clutch, and that Kobe is this Jordan-like player in the clutch, when in reality he is horrible in the clutch. Believe what YOU want, not what the MEDIA wants you to.
I just cant wait till ten years go by and he finally has about 5 rings so everybody can just shut up about how he chokes and think about how big of a moron you were to have possibly the greatest basketball player ever infront of you, and to not even realize that he was better than Kobe...And who cares if he passes the last shot? That is a great thing. Jordan to Paxson? That just shows he is a team player and trusts his teamates and wants the BEST shot, even if he doesn't take it. Since when is it better to be a ballhog?
is that a joke? were talkin about BIG game situations not regular season games. LeBron is arguably the most physically gifted athlete ever and he should dominate in the clutch. i dont know if you watch the finals last year, or the eastern conference finals two years ago, or the finals against the spurs, but lebron is not as clutch as kobe when it counts. ill use the same argument in every post. 5 rings says youre wrong. i do believe that lebron will become more clutch as his career goes on and i think hell finish with multiple rings, but at this point in their careers, dont be ridiculous dude
Really?? Don't even speak on Lebron in the finals against the Spurs and use that as some comparison to justify Kobe and his black hole ways. Kobe in his prime couldn't take that squad to the finals because when he did have a squad of equal talent to that Cleveland squad he cried for a trade. Dude seriously? Stop beleiving the media hype man and think for yourself. Right now the Lakers have more talent than 5th in the West. Answer this, if he's so GREAT why can't he bring that squad to a 4th seed? Soon the blame will fall on the coach because the offense is crap but MOST of the blame falls on Kobe!!
kobe passed to fisher and horry a lot in his career
Kobe is in my opinion one of the most overrated players of all time. I just remember game 2 vs Orlando in 2009, when every single person I knew said "MJ totally passes that" When he badly missed the buzzer shot where he was triple covered. Or in 2010, where if Metta World Peace didnt rebound his horrendous air ball, they probably would have lost to a vastly inferior Phoenix team. Or in 2008, when he lost an elimination game in the finals by 37 points. Or in 2006, when he litterally quit on his team. Or last year, when his "favorites" got embarrassed in a 4 game sweep.
When Shaq was his daddy, he did some thangs'. That being said, he faced 3 really weak Eastern Conference Champs (00 Indy, 01 Philly, and 02 New Jersey) and the only good team they beat in that run, 02 Sac, they needed like 35 free throws in the 4th quarter of game 6 and some really sketchy calls down the stretch to win them that game.
Just Sayin. He scores points. I get it.
I might have been a little ridiculous and said thinks I don't fully mean, like he is twice as clutch. But honestly the truth is I am just sick of hearing how clutch Kobe is. What does Kobe do that is so clutch. That 28% field goal. Maybe LeBron isn't that clutch because he should look to take it himself more instead of pass. But on the same terms, maybe Kobe isn't that clutch because he should look for him teammates more. You don't think its a little predicatable what the Lakers are going to do down 2 with ten seconds left in the game? Double team Kobe and you are probably going to win, because he is not even looking for a wide-open man.
I fully agree Fvck Swag. I think it is crazy that people consider him in the class of the greats with Bird and Magic and Oscar Robertson. It is a JOKE.
It is crazy all the times when Kobe chokes it is just not even talked about. He chokes in the playoffs and it slides under the bus. LeBron chokes in a freaking all-star game and you don't hear the end of it. I wouldn't even call it choking when Kobe does it, because its not that he just missed a shot, its that he tried to shoot over 3 freaking people, no &$#%#&@! he missed. Its more of a horrible/selfish basketball play.
the lakers played the defending champion dallas mavericks and kobe had two great assists with under a min left to win. he recognized the double team and passed to the open man under the hoop. just like its easy to knock lebron when he messes something up, its easy to knock kobe when he shoots 8-22 in a game wearing a mask the whole time. it was a bad day, look at his career its pretty nuts. i could list his accomplishments but you probably already know them.
To be honest, I hate looking at those 82games stats that signify how clutch a player is. Clutch isn't taking the last shot with 3 seconds left. Clutch is how hard you play in the final minutes. It's steals, rebounds, blocks, defense, and leadership. It's everything you do and say leading up to the final 10 seconds. Kobe can score 10 consecutive points for his team to bring them back with 10 seconds left, but if he misses that final shot to help them win, he's considered un-clutch according to those stats.
Clutch isn't a skill, it's your mentality. You can't put leadership, work-ethic, and heart into stats. Just like you can't put clutch into stats.
Let me give you an example at how terrible these stats are.
Andrew Bynum FG% in the "clutch": 46.2%
Dwyane Wade FG% in the "clutch": 39.7%
Chauncey Billups FG% in the "clutch": 38.1%
Now let's play a little game, if your life depends on it, 10 seconds left, one shot, starting at the top of the key. Grade-A defender on-ball.
Who do you want to shoot the ball?
Tongue-Out-Like-23, by your example i choose Billups he is a better shooter than Wade, but i think you all will call me something like this ARE YOU SERIOUS?
Here's an article comparing LeBron vs Kobe in game winning shots.
Ill take anyone over that horrid 25% mark. What are you implying, that I would want Dwyane Wade even though he is a lower FG% than Bynum? Obviously I'd take Dwyane Wade at a 39% mark. Guards obviously are going to have a lower % than centers. I agree that these stats don't mean everthing, but when you are about a 25% mark, they mean something. THAT IS TERRIBLE. So when it is that bad, yes I would much rather feed Bynum in the post than to give Kobe a shot where he is tripled team. If Kobe would look to pass than I would obviously give him the ball, but come playoff time, you don't think that Kobe taking an ill-advised fadeaway over 2 defenders is a little predictable? Don't get me wrong, Kobe is a GREAT player. Definitley a top 5-10 SG of all time. DEF NOT a top 5-10 player of all time.
And yeah, he passed to Fisher and Horry when Shaq was on the team. Shaq would kill him if he took a shot over 3 people liek he does now. He has no discipline now, or no one with the balls to step up and tell him he gotta pass.
I have no clue where TallmanNYC got that 28% figure.
Last season, Kobe was 40.2 FG% in the clutch while scoring a league high 49.8 PPG.
Kobe has always shot a lot, and before he was even better than he is now, but he nees to ride his bigs into the playoffs. One thing I disagree with as for the Lakers' sheme is not playing Gasol in the post as much as before. I know Bynum has played well and the more touches he gets in the post, the better he's gonna get, however Pau is the most skilled post player in the league, adn I felel that the Lakers should take advantage of this. That was one a of the perks of the triangle offense, it put Pau in the perfect position where he was able to succeed. He has started to round into shape as of late, however i would feel much more comfortable with him in the post rather than a majority of his shots being jumpshots.
Kobe is still the best shooting guard in the league, and is still a top 5-7 player in the league, however he has been forcing it just a little to much this season. He seems like he's trying a bit too hard at times, but in the end he is Kobe Bryant, not some idiot off the street. Several times in late game situations, I've seen him fade as if he's taking an off balance leaner, then throw a beautiful alley-oop to Pau or Bynum. Kobe wants to be great, an his first instinct is to score, that's what he does, he scores, but for the Lakers to succeed, I believe that he's gonna have to sacrifice about 5 points per game, and give Pau adn Bynum more touches. If all three of them are shooting above 45% from the floor with at least 15 a piece, with at least one of them around 23 a game, I think they'll be fine. As long as Kobe is able to not force as many shots as he currently does, they may have a run in them.
i think the thing here is, that its more noticeable that kobe shoots too much now because he has lost that incredible first step so he ends ups having to take more contested/harder shots. he needs to feed his bigs, no doubt. but if they want to win it all with that roster, they're gonna need kobe to great.
Kobe also played awful in the most important game a player can ever have. Game 7 of the Finals. God thing he got bailed out.
The reason Kobe takes so many shots is he has the mindset that he can hit all of them. Thats why the Lakers need a true point guard a la Ramon Sessions that can feed Kobe Bynum and Gasol in their hot spots and keep them happy. Kobe has the ball in his hands most possesions as portrayed by his nba high 34.9 usage rate.
I'd rather have Kobe take the final shot then LeBron, but I trust LeBron to make the right decision more then I do Kobe. Kobe takes some awful shots in the clutch.
I find people funny. This thread was nowhere to be found during the last three games while Kobe was averaging over 30, shooting over like 50%, etc since wearing the mask after breaking his nose and suffering a concussion. Now after a bad game versus the Pistons, we see this?
"Kobe one of the most overrated players of all time"
I get it... He shoots a lot, but really? Overrated players of *ALL TIME*? Dramatic...
For those who were wondering...
Kobe also played awful in the most important game a player can ever have. Game 7 of the Finals. God thing he got bailed out.
At least he showed up... That's more than you can say about LeBron versus Dallas last year.
I agree with Indiana,, you can have a bad playoff/finals games but LeBron had a bad series.. there is a big difference
I was going to say that 28% was sooo horrible I was shocked. 40% seems more accurate.
wow irving top 3 in scoring in "the clutch"
Rebound and assists rate in the clutch is UNBELIEVABLE. That has to mean something. Scoring isn't the only thing. Also he is a SHUTDOWN defender in the clutch. The only person who can and has shut down Derrick Rose in the clutch.
I get it, Kobe may be a better scorer, but they are very close in that degree. In everything else LeBron KILLS him. Maybe you can make an argument for Kobe being better in the clutch. But if you think Kobe is or ever was the OVERALL player that LeBron is, you really don't have that much knowledge about what wins a basketball game and are just intrigued by scoring and tough shots, or you are either completely biased for Kobe, or against LeBron. Don't tell me the rings I don't wanna hear it. Give LeBron 7 years to get to Kobe's age and I guarantee that he will have a few himself. Plus he had Shaq for three of them. Shaq! The most dominant big men that any of us have ever seen. LeBron never had a team till last year, and he choked then. A few chokes doesn't mean Kobe Bryant is better than him. He didn't choke in rebounds, steals, blocks, and assists. There is more to basketball than scoring and there is WAY more than scoring that LAST shot. I think we have to not make the other 47 minutes invaluable because 47 minutes is way more important than that last one. Don't kid yourself on the medias hype for scoring and late game heroics.
Indiana- I'm not referring to the last 5 games when talking about Kobe being overrated. I brought up about 10 different points, none of which has anything to do with the 2012 season. Don't tell me I'm overreacting to one bad game when my argument was far from that.
Its not that Kobe shoots a lot is the type of shots he takes which make him a "ball hog"... I always said I haven't seen a superstar in the league EVER to shoot the most ridiculous shots as Kobe... I mean majority of the shots Kobe hit are the MJ highlight shots... The shot on Ehlo and such is Kobe shot EVERY game... I rarely see Kobe miss an open shot... That mentallity to win and put the team your back is what make you clutch... You can give me stats all day if you want unless there is a MASSIVE difference then those stats aren't a big deal... Same with the Holleniger stat...
LeBron will have a great 4th and instead of going hard to finish the game he just give up... Its not even about hitting the shot its the body language and mindset which make him unclutch...
Kobe is the most polarizing player of his generation. You can make an argument that he's never at any point been the best player in the league...always fighting guys like Shaq, Iverson, Duncan, KG, and LeBron for that title, but never clearly taking the crown at any one point like Jordan once did and LeBron is doing now.
However, you'd be silly to ignore the ability, the stats and the titles. He's clearly one of the top 20 players of all-time and possibly one of the top 10.
Kobe 9-31 for 30 points. Lakers blew a huge lead against the Wizards and lost.
9 - 31 is ridiculous, at which point do you realize that if you keep taking ill advised shots that you're not going to win!!!??? He's absolutely PAINFUL to watch, i feel sorry for Gasol and Bynum
Its becoming a more common occurance. The Wizards though? You have got to feed whoever Andre Blatche is guarding.
kobes had two bad games in a row. I didnt even see tonights game, but the numbers speak for themselves. BUt oh well. SOme times you gotta take the lumps with the good. I rather he use meaningless games vs det and wash to try and find a rythim so he can be on when the playoffs. Start. ANd some of the hating on here is silly. He is the second best player ever behind MJ and he aint done yet.
Yeah, Kobe shot bad in game 7, but like the clutch player he is, he found another way to produce by playing top notch defense and grabbing 15 rebounds. Like TOL23 said, clutch isn't just about making the last shot. There are a number of variables that go into it and it takes having bball iq and actually watching the games to understand this. Can't just look at numbers.
As for him shooting a lot more this season, there was an article recently talking about how MB actually told Kobe they were going to have to rely on him a lot more this season to get them over the hump offensively since they haven't been able to practice and had such a short training camp. There are things that go on behind the scenes that dictate outecomes and events that we as fans simply have no idea of. And as Indiana said, I'll be waiting on all of the Kobe love to come back out when his neck and nose aren't as big of an issue and he's back to 30+ scoring outputs along with 7rbs and 6 ast games. Funny how quickly fairweather fans turn.
"He is the second best player ever behind MJ and he aint done yet."
I think this is why the Kobe-haters hate on Kobe...like I said earlier, he's arguably never been the best player in the league, so how can he be considered the 2nd-best player of all-time? He's a top 10-15 player of all-time, anything beyond that is a tough argument.
I agree with iguanapops, though. He'll come back and have a 15-for-24, 40 point game sometime soon, and everyone will be saying "See, Kobe is the 2nd best of all-time!"
I hate Kobe, like... a lot, but he's as good or better than the Irving, West class of player and pretty clearly below the Magic, Bird, Jordan class. As far as during his career, I'd still take Duncan over him.
Kobe might be the 2nd best SG ever but no way is he the 2nd best ever period. Kobe has had so much luck for him to get what he's got. If you check the stats not only does Kobe not even come close to Jordan's final averages. but Shaq obviously had better numbers then Pippen far better, but Pau Gasol' numbers during the finals are considerably better then Pippens were. Meaning Kobe has actually had way better support to get them rings. Facts or facts you can look the stats up if you don't believe me. And we all know Pau should of won the MVP of the last finals he won.
I'm not tryna take anything away from Kobe but I'm not giving him stuff he hasn't earned yet either. That whole "I have no rival" interview said everything about Kobe. He's out for personnel glory not to win for his team. That's the big difference between him and players like Magic who is really the best Laker of all time.
For great players it's harder to rack up assists and make your teammates better then it is to score a lot.
If I was just a casual user on this site, I'd think you guys were demeaning Kobe and pretty much saying he was washed up. But allow me to offer you some perspective about Kobe from a basketball player's standpoint.
Ever played a pick-up game or some sort of basketball and hit let's say about 3 or 4 shots in a row. Well that feelign you get when this happens alters your thoughts. It makes you say, "I need the ball, I'm hot and I know I can't miss!" Your ryhthm is ridiculous and you are looking to score whenever the rock touches your hands. It's a great feeling.
Now unlike Kobe, you probably wouldn't be playing with two of the league's best big men, but the thing about Kobe is the absolutely crazy scoring games that this guy has registered. I truly believe that Kobe THINKS he can hit EVERY shot he takes. 81 pts, 62 in 3 quarters, 9 straight 40 pt. games, 12 threes in one ball game, 42 points in one half, and several 50 point performances will get you that mentality. Kobe literally lives by the motto that great shooters keep shooting. I don't know why, but he just keeps shooting regardless of how many he misses. Kobe doesn't need to shoot 57 shots in two games. It's not acceptable AT ALL!!!
Mike Brown must stop the madness. He has got to devise a gameplan to get Kobe less shots and fed Pau and Andrew a little more. Kupchak also needs to go ahead and gamble on Arenas, and look to get some PG and SF help.
He is the second best player ever behind MJ and he aint done yet.
Saying Kobe is the 2nd best player of all time isnt as far fetched as people think..He has the total package when it comes to things you want from a nba player,the athleticism,outside shooting,aggressiveness,showmanship,clutch,hates to lose,and maybe a better all around offensive game then Jordan or any player that has ever played..
But to say he's clearly the 2nd best player of all time, will there are alot of reasons to name a few other guys..I cant speak about Wilt or Russell becuz they were long before my time..But i did see Magic & Bird play both live and on tv...Magic & Bird dominated from a team standpoint,they were great individually,but they also made their teammates better..And thats something you have to take into account when you evaluate But Kobe's selfishness is whats drove him to be great...I remember when Dr.J was playing,people were saying he was better then Magic or Bird,but after his career ended and their careers ended you could see they were better players..Maybe Kobe wont be fully appreciated until he retires...