This topic contains 81 replies, has 24 voices, and was last updated by AvatarAvatar darkman97 12 years, 1 month ago.

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  • #35774
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    Michael.S.
    Participant

    Kevin Love on NBA’s best power forward: "It’s me. Every time I step on the floor I have the upper hand"

     "I’m an anomaly. I’m different. I’m tired of people saying what I can’t do. Put me in any system and I’ll have success."
     

    He does this too much. He is playing great, and we realize it, you don’t have to brag about yourself. And he is not better than Dirk or Bosh and it’s arguable if he is better than Griffin

    On to Wall, he has 13 9 and 9 in the 3rd, shame on all of you who were doubting him 5 games in.

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  • #627030
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     Kevin Love isn’t even a top 5 PF imo.

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  • #627033
    AvatarAvatar
    PurpleMonkeyDishwasher
    Participant

    Kevin Love is speaking of the mindset that he has to have to compete…   If K Love was the power forward proto-type instead of who and what he is it wouldn’t be a big deal to anyone.   And Kevin Love is better than a top 5 power forward,  just not as accomplished yet.

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  • #627035
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     Blake Griffin

    Amare Stoudemire

    Chris Bosh

    Zach Randolph

    LaMarcus Aldridge

    Dirk Nowitzki

    Pao Gasol

    Those are all guys you could argue are better then Love.

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  • #627038
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    Entropy
    Participant

    Wall is 4-17 shooting. Just saying.

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  • #627039
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    Maniac Maciej
    Participant

    …is the only PF in NBA history who could easily start a Color Me Badd cover band. 

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  • #627045
    AvatarAvatar
    invalid
    Participant

     doubters make him say that. thats how much confident he is

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  • #627047
    AvatarAvatar
    invalid
    Participant

     he had 13, 9, 9 in the 3rd?  i havent watched the game but he finished 13, 9, 10. in 38 mins. did he rest in the 4th?

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  • #627048
    AvatarAvatar
    WizardofOz
    Participant

     Wall’s jumper looked more broken than ever tonight.

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  • #627050
    AvatarAvatar
    Entropy
    Participant

    He took too many jumpers, didn’t pentrate enough. I was hoping for another 10+FTA game.But he was 1 rebound away froma trip dub. At least he didn’t pull a blatche and try to force his way to the last rebound.

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  • #627052
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    PurpleMonkeyDishwasher
    Participant

    You could argue…  but USA basketball would say differently.  LA would gladly give Pao up for Love at this point while Dirk is a different situation based on the fact that he’s been certified as a legend. 

     

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  • #627054
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    PurpleMonkeyDishwasher
    Participant

    Was that really your own comment or did you leave your page open and your little sister posted for you?

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  • #627059
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    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    Says a guy who’s team has probably never been .500.

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  • #627066
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    bloodshy
    Participant

    "Those are all guys you could argue are better then Love."

    And you could just as easily argue that Love is better than any of the guys you listed.  Love’s only rival for best rebounder is Dwight.  Love’s offensive numbers are more impressive and more consistent than any other PF in the league right now.  Love is possibly the best passing big man in the NBA.  His range is 25 feet and he has plenty of post moves.  Offensively I would take Love over any other PF, including the 7-foot wing named Dirk (That’s not a knock–Dirk’s a legend.  But he really is more of a 3 than a 4).  Love’s progression from season to season has been amazing and I think he has the potential to continue improving on both ends of the floor.

    A month ago I rated Aldridge, Dirk and Griffin ahead of Love.  No longer.  I’d now take Love over any PF in the NBA.  The fact that he talks himself up is annoying, but he generally backs it up.

    As a rookie 6th round pick Tom Brady told Robert Kraft (Patriot’s owner) upon meeting him that picking him (Brady), was the best decision the Pats franchise had ever made.  I’ve cheered against Brady for years, but at the end of the day his seemingly ridiculous words were a reflection of his well established confidence that he was able to back up.  I don’t know if Love can do the same, but based on his play and his improvement the last two years, I wouldn’t bet against him.

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  • #627075
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     Really? Kevin Love doesn’t even shoot 44% from the field as a PF and has never been on a winning team. But you would take him over Bosh, Nowitzki (who is somewhat slumping), Gasol, Randolph, Alridge, Gasol, Stoudemire (garbage this year, but still a great player) and Griffin? All of those guys make their team better then Love does and that is a fact. I don’t remember any of those guys winning 17 games as the man on their team.

    You can take Love over all those guys and I’ll take Griffin or Aldridge and watch my team win a lot more games, because they make their team better. Love might be a better rebounder and shooter (then all but Dirk), but he sucks at defense and isn’t very good in the post. Tom Brady also has nothing to do with this at all.

     

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  • #627076
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    FastAndFurious
    Participant

     Wall as I said his athleticism will alow him to dominate at times, more often than not, but he needs to refine his game regardless of what’s going on, he needs his skill level to catch up so he can be as GOOD as everyone wants him to be, if not Steve Francis 2.0.

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  • #627092
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    Dale Worthington
    Participant

    Read what bloodshy said. He summarized things very well. Big Daddy Love is more of a potent force at his position than anyone in the game.

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  • #627088
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    Dale Worthington
    Participant

    Chris "Like A" Bosh doesn’t hold a candle to Big Daddy Love.

    How on earth can you compare a little b!tch to a man who tears down the boards at will?

    And criticizing Love for his 44% FG%. doesn’t work. He’s taking 5 3s a game. Of course his FG% isn’t gonna be amazing.

    25 and 14.5 a game. At the end of the day it’s about production. Simple as that. It’s not his fault his team doesn’t win. It isn’t a 1-man game.

    Best PF in the game is Love. Griffin is #2.

    Amare and Dirk don’t do enough on the glass to be at the top. I mean Nowitzki is at 5.4 RPG. That’s terrible for a 7-foot PF, even one who does quite a bit of his damage on the wing.

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  • #627093
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     Love doesn’t win, end of story.

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  • #627095
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    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    People love to say Griffin is all athleticism, but they ignore when he shows great footwork in the post. People also love to ignore how he draws the double and consistently makes the right passes to open teammates.

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  • #627097
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    Dale Worthington
    Participant

    You’re very narrow-minded for criticizing him for not winning. It’s a 5-man sport. If you gave any elite post player a lack of talent around him…

    ….guess what…

    He wouldn’t win!

    Holding someone accountable (a lack of talent around him) for something they can’t control is incredibly illogical and inane.

    By your logic, Luke Walton is a better player than Kevin Love, because Walton wins more.

    Makes perfect sense!

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  • #627100
    AvatarAvatar
    Dale Worthington
    Participant

    Better player…

    Kevin Love or Brian Cardinal?

    Cardinal, DUHHHHHHHHHH!

    He wins more (even though he sucks)!

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  • #627101
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     No, you’re narrow minded for thinking Love is better then Griffin. If you actually watched them play (I live in Minnesota) you would know it’s really not close. Griffin came to the Clippers and they immediately became a better team, that did not happen with Kevin Love. When he broke out last year they were the worst team in basketball. Just because I simplified it doesn’t mean I’m narrow minded. Watch them play instead of looking at the box scores.

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  • #627103
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    Dale Worthington
    Participant

    I’ve watched both guys play. Love puts the ball in the tin and tears down the boards. He has a high IQ, he plays within himself, has excellent range for a PF, and is an excellent passer for a big man.

    The Wolves not winning has nothing to do with Love. No PF for get them to win with the lack of talent on that team (it’s a bit better with Rubio, but still, no PF would get them to win).

    It still amazes me that you guys are hating on Love for the lack of talent around him, again, something that he has ZERO control over.

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  • #627104
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

    Way to let my comment go way over your head. The great PF’s in the league have been core parts of winning teams, Love has not. Despite being the best PF in the NBA in your opinion. Also before you go and say wait the Clippers only won 3 more games with Griffin then without! Look at all the missed games by Gordon, Kaman and others. 

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  • #627102
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    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    @Dale Worthington

    There’s truth to what you’re saying, but is it not also true that great players make their teammates better?

    I watched a loss earlier this season for the Timberwolves and during a close game in the fourth, I promise the Timberwolves didn’t run the offense through Love one time. He didn’t get his teammates one easy basket.

    He’s a very good player who puts up big numbers, but I think some of his numbers are just that… Just numbers. Empty ones.

     

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  • #627109
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

    100% agree with that. He isn’t a bad player at all but people see his numbers and think he’s way better then he his.

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  • #627108
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    I think the thing about Kevin Love is that he really doesn’t play from the post… He’s more of a pick and pop guy. I  mean, he’s shooting 44% as a big man… He shoots three’s, but still…  You can’t really run an offense through him and be successful at this point. He’s not THE guy. He’s not someone who you can pound the ball into and say "Either score or draw the double and kick it to open man." I think Blake Griffin CAN be that guy. He’s not that guy yet, but I think he can be.

    Love is a very good player who’s still young and is going to get better, but I see him as more of a 2nd or 3rd option. Still a good player though. I’ve grown to respect him.

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  • #627126
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    Dale Worthington
    Participant

    IndianaBasketball, I normally agree with everything you say, but seriously, how can a guy drop 25 and 15 (even if his #s drop, we’re still talking about 22 and 13) and be the 2nd or 3rd option?

    Who is he playing with here? Kobe and Durant?

    EDIT: I may have misunderstood your post. Do you mean 2nd or 3rd option among PFs?

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  • #627129
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    llperez

    love’s best teammate last year was beasley who i think little of as a complete player. His best teammate this season has probably been a rookie ricky rubio. Lets not act like any of those other pf’s who are apparently so much better then love are playing with anything close to what love has to work with. Right now, there is little seperation among the top pf’s. Love is worthy of a max deal and is a legit all-star candidate and if you dont think he helps make his team better, you dont know basketball. Its takes more then wins and losses to see how a guy helps his team.

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  • #627131
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     Is that directed at me? Of course he makes his team better, but not as much as some of the other PF’s.

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  • #627133
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    its directed at you and everyone who brings up his teams lack of succes as to why hes overrated. I mean look at tonight. His numbers are equal so far to blakes. I’ve watching the game. He is playing blake to an absolute standstill. But while blake has 2 former all-stars in mo will and billups combining for about 40 points through 3 quarters. Love has darko trying to be the man and lead the way.

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  • #627136
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     Darko has outplayed Love…and Billups and Mo Williams are former all stars, emphasis on former.

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  • #627138
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    they’re still better then anything love has to work with. ANd darko has outplayed blake as well.

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  • #627139
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    OhCanada-
    Participant

    I love this statement by Kevin. Dont sleep on him he has the mentallity all the greats have. You think Mike would ever let anyone say he is anything but the best. Get out of here for the haters, anyone who doesnt like this statement is a pessimistic hater. Is he supposed to awnser "no Im not the best PF because if I am matched up with Nowitzki/Gasol/Aldridge (or whoever) they will beat me in a one on one matchup". Minnesota is going to start winning pretty soon with all that talent, leadership, established roles and direction, and when they do I will make an apology thread dedicated to him just for the haters.

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  • #627141
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     Fair enough.

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  • #627142
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     I never said he shouldn’t answer the question that way. I’m just saying that what he said wasn’t true. Call me a hater, but he isn’t a top 5 PF (barely) and is not going to be a #1 who you can win a title with. I think he’d be a perfect #2 for a title contender though.

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  • #627144
    AvatarAvatar
    OhCanada-
    Participant

    @Bloodshy there is no way in hell I would ever takes Love over Nowitzki OFFENSIVELY.

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  • #627173
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    Dale Worthington
    Participant

    All the Kevin Love haters just held hands in unison and commited ritual suicide.

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  • #627181
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

    Classic overreaction.

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  • #627187
    AvatarAvatar
    rickybobby
    Participant

     Love is at a point in his career sort of like where Nowitzki was when he was pretty much jumpshooting big man.( Aldridge fits this mold also). If u say Aldridge is one of the top big man in the game then Love has to be up there right with him. Love is putting up better numbers than any pf in the game right now.Yeah is team hasnt won alot but he doesnt have the same talent on his team as other guys. Look at Kevin Garnett when he was in Minnesota he wasnt winning big because of the lack of talent and the only reason he won alitte while he was there was because he’s a defensive force on the court unlike Love. AS of right now to me love is one of the top Pfs in the game and when Rubio and him get the right talent around them with Aldeman coaching the Timberwolves are going to be a force to be recken with. And for Love to be really as affective as he can be the Twolves are going to have to get rid of Beasley possible Derrick Williams if he cant translate into a true small forward instead of a hybrid because he reminds me of a more athletic Al Harrington in that he versital and can score but would probably be best served as a sixth man since he has no true position.

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  • #627190
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    FastAndFurious
    Participant

     Love just hit that game winner tho………. not that it matters lol but he just hit that game winner tho…….

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  • #627192
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    kgmoney21
    Participant

    blake definitely would not have hit that shot love did to win it, neither would most other of the top pf’s named as better then kevin…numbers don’t lie, put love on the lakers, clippers, heat and they’d be that much better…get over it he is a monster and a force to be reckoned with. i have a feeling u dislike him because he doesnt fit the prototypical mold of a power forward but damn did he ever look good comin up with that huge turnover against BG 😉 wolves r for real beotches!

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  • #627197
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

    Why does it matter that Griffin couldn’t have hit that shot? He has Chauncey Billups to shoot that, and Chris Paul when he is healthy. Numbers don’t lie? How about the 5/16 Love shot, while pretty much sucking the whole game (although Griffin wasn’t good either)? If you replaced Griffin with Love on the Clippers they would not be better. Maybe the Lakers, maybe the Heat, but the same can be said for Griffin, Aldridge, Nowitzki and Randolph. Just because he hit 1 game winning shot doesn’t mean he all of a sudden passed 5 PF’s to be the best in the game, I’m not foolish enough to base ones standing on 1 performance like everyone on here is doing.

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  • #627195
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    OhCanada-
    Participant

    YupYup I wasnt calling you out in any way or I would have stated your name. Your not a hater if you dont think he is a Top 5 PF thats just your opinion which is fine. even though there is not 5 PF’s I would even consider taking over Love.

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  • #627199
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    OhCanada-
    Participant

    I strongly believe the Clippers would be much better with Love and the Wolves would not be creeping up near .500 with Griffin.

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  • #627200
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     Agree to disagree.

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  • #627201
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    OhCanada-
    Participant

    Maybe thats because in this game down the stretch Griffin missed two free throws to basically ice the game, and Love hit a 3 to completely ice the game. So Griffin lost this game for his team and Love won this game for his team. Therefore in a sense if Griffin was playing on Minnesota and Love on LA…you catch my drift.

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  • #627202
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    ayo
    Participant

    yupyup, the majority of your list above is arguable but to list Bosh in there is downright displicable. Replace Bosh with Love on that team and the Heat would never lose a game. Put Bosh on the Wolves and they’d be 3-12.

    Say what you wish about Griffin but I wouldn’t trade Love for Griffin either.

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  • #627203
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     Chris Bosh took some pretty awful Toronto teams to the playoffs. I think he even led them to a 3 seed once (don’t quote me on that). He has done what Love has not.

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    • #627209
      AvatarAvatar
      ayo
      Participant

      Two words: "Eastern Conference".

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  • #627208
    AvatarAvatar
    OhCanada-
    Participant

    Yah led us to a 3 seed in a weak division. Still a huge accomplishment. We had great role players exceeding their potential at every position (Calderon, Ford, Parker, Garbajosa, Delfino, Nesterovic), and very good coaching Sam Mitchell.

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  • #627212
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     47 wins that season. Love took over as the main guy last year and won 17. Kevin Love won 56 games in his first 3 seasons. C’mon now.

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  • #627214
    AvatarAvatar
    SwatLakeCity
    Participant

    Wolves last year before Ricky Rubio=last in the West and worst overall record. (even worse than the Cavs without Lebron.)

    Wolves this year with Rubio= Last in the Northwest division but fighting for a playoff spot. I’ll take the latter. Clearly a definite improvement over last year.

    Final Assesment: No Love is not the best PF in the game right now, and no those honors do not go to Blake Griffen either. (You don’t get called the best PF in the league because you have a superb aerial show and are very explosive even though it is flashy and appetizing.) Currently the jury is still out on Love since he has had inferior talent around him in the past. Now with better talent around him in Rubio, Love is looking a lot better and consquently so are the Wolves, so I think at the end of the day we are going to be talking about both Griffin and Love being possibly the best PF’s in the game. (especially when Dirk, KG, and Pau Gasol retire) At the end of the day, I’m not quite sure who is the better PF (Griffin or Love),  they both are very good in their own respects.

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  • #627217
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     I never said Griffin was the best.

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  • #627223
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    billyk
    Participant

    Let’s not act like Kevin Love doesn’t have TALENT on his team… Derrick Williams, Rubio, Wes Johnson, Darko, Martell Webster are all former lottery picks.. I think if your top 5 at your position and a superstar you should be able to lead your team to the playoffs atleast 8th seed, that’s what separates a star from a superstar..

    Love is a BEAST on the boards, posses a watery jumper,and basically puts up video games stats, but you play to win the game.. When Love starts piling up the W’s the he can make a claim as the top or top 5 power fowards… Personally I would like to see Love produce down the stretch battling for a playoff position, that’s when super stars shine…

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  • #627236
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    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    yupyup

    Since you continue to bring up the "Love doesn’t win" argument.  Let me show you something.

    Kevin Love’s best teammates since becoming a starter:

    • Michael Beasley: 22 year old failed 2nd overall pick
    • Ricky Rubio: 21 year old rookie

    That’s it!  He played with one pot-head and a 21 year old rookie!  How in the world do you expect him to win?!

    Now, let’s look at the guys you said are better:

    Blake Griffin

    • Eric Gordon: Up-and-coming SG averaging 22ppg
    • Chris Kaman: All-Star
    • Baron Davis/Mo Williams: All-Stars
    • Chris Paul: NBA Superstar
    • Chauncey Billups: All-Star, NBA Champion
    • Caron Butler: All-Star, NBA Champion

    Amar’e Stoudemire

    • Stephon Marbury: All-Star
    • Shawn Marion: All-Star, NBA Champion
    • Joe Johnson: All-Star
    • Steve Nash: 2x MVP
    • Carmelo Anthony: All-Star
    • Tyson Chandler: NBA Champion

    Chris Bosh

    • Vince Carter: All-Star
    • Shawn Marion: All-Star, NBA Champion
    • LeBron James: 2x MVP
    • Dwyane Wade: NBA Superstar

    Zach Randolph

    • Rasheed Wallace: All-Star, NBA Champion
    • Derek Anderson: All-Star
    • Brandon Roy: All-Star
    • Jamal Crawford: 6th Man of the Year
    • Rudy Gay: Probable future All-Star
    • Marc Gasol: Probable future All-Star

    LaMarcus Aldridge

    • Brandon Roy: All-Star
    • Gerald Wallace: All-Star
    • Jamal Crawford: 6th Man of the Year

    Dirk Nowitzki

    • Michael Finely: All-Star
    • Steve Nash: 2x MVP
    • Cedric Ceballos: All-Star
    • Nick Van Exel: All-Star
    • Antoine Walker: All-Star
    • Antawn Jamison: All-Star
    • Jerry Stackhouse: All-Star
    • Jason Terry: 6th Man of the Year
    • Josh Howard: All-Star
    • Devin Harris: All-Star
    • Jason Kidd: All-Star
    • Shawn Marion: All-Star
    • Caron Butler: All-Star
    • Vince Carter: All-Star
    • Lamar Odom: 6th Man of the Year, 2x NBA Champion

    Pau Gasol

    • Mike Miller: 6th Man of the Year, Rookie of the Year
    • Bobby Jackson: All-Star
    • Rudy Gay: Probably future All-Star
    • Lamar Odom: 6th Man of the Year
    • Kobe Bryant: NBA Superstar, 3x NBA Champion
    • Ron Artest: All-Star
    • Andrew Bynum: All-Star this season

    ________________________________________________________________________________

    I think it’s fair to say that Kevin Love has not had anywhere near the quantity nor quality of talent as the other guys on your list.  Thus, rendering your "He doesn’t win" argument pretty useless because none of those guys would have won if they did not play with so many All-Stars, NBA Champions and NBA veterans.

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  • #627237
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    It’s arguable whether or not Kevin Love is the best power forward in the game today.  I would argue that Blake Griffin is the best power forward but let’s not act as if Kevin Love is nowhere near the conversation or the lack of wins is completely his fault.  None of the PFs in the talk of being the best has had it harder in the league than Kevin Love has had it so far. 

    Remember when the Lakers wont their 2nd ring?  Pau Gasol went from a nobody in the NBA to suddenly "The Best PF" simply because he teamed up with Kobe Bryant, Lamar Odom, and Andrew Bynum.  Kevin Love doesn’t have that luxury, at the moment so why should he get knocked? 

    ___________________________________________________________________________

    billyk

    "Let’s not act like Kevin Love doesn’t have TALENT on his team… Derrick Williams, Rubio, Wes Johnson, Darko, Martell Webster are all former lottery picks.."

    Don’t you ever put the words "Darko, Martell Webster, and TALENT" in the same sentence again.

    And guess what?  Derrick Williams and Ricky Rubio are barely in their rookie year and Wes Johnson has played about 90 NBA games. 

    Not to mention, they are one game back from .500 so don’t act as if they are completely losing this year. SMH..  That was probably the weakest counter-argument on this thread.

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  • #627256
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    billyk
    Participant

    The point I was making was Love plays with "talented" players… Geuss what I know Williams and Rubio are rookies but the fact remains they are NOT scrubs.. My point genius is to simply point out you shouldnt be considered the best at a position or a top 5 at position unless you win games, superstars in the league win games… And that list you compiled was weak because for instance Rasheed Wallace wasnt and all star when ZBO played with him, ZBO wasn’t even considered a top PF till he lead the Grizz in the playoffs although he is 20 and 10 for his career…

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  • #627269
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

    Was that team really 3 times worse then the one Bosh took to a 3 seed? I think not. Lets not forget that everyone on the this forum thought after the beginning of last year Beasley was going to be a perennial all star (I do remember you were not one of them, so props to you for that though), so I think that counts as a pretty talented teammate. The only difference between this year and last year and Rubio, Williams and Adelman and the latter two I give at least as much credit for the Wolves being 7-8 as Love. 

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  • #627281
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    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    Wow… This is the most overreacting to something I’ve ever seen.

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  • #627282
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     I’m not sure how to take that.

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  • #627296
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    Scottoant93
    Participant

    I think this thread can be simply wrapped up by just saying 3 points

    1.Theres is nothing wrong with kevin saying he is the best since no expects him to say someone is better then him. He gave the correct answer everyone wants to here coming from a player.

    2. As talented and stat filling Kevin Love is I would not consider him being ELITE(he is an allstar) til he guides his team to either the playoffs or above .500 record. PERIOD. the custudian comment is absolutely absurd and does not bring anything to this agruement whoever said it leave your smarta$$ comments out of it. Same goes for griffin even though his team will most likely make the playoffs.

    3.As i was typing this i forgot my 3rd point so….i’ll get back to you on that

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  • #627297
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    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    That wasn’t directed at you.

    Just directed at all of this Kevin Love hype in general.

    You do need good teammates to be successful, but you just can’t throw how winning a player is out of the window just because it doesn’t make him look good. Great players ELEVATE the play of their teammates and don’t lose like Love has lost.

    I think Love is somewhere in the middle… He hasn’t had great teammates, but I also don’t think he’s a guy who elevates the play of his teammates either.

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  • #627301
    AvatarAvatar
    kngojc
    Participant

     For those of you saying the Wolves suck… They are 7-8; ONE game back from .500. He’s played a huge role in getting those 7 wins. Just listing some teams that the Wolves are playing better than right now.. Boston, Washington (who so many people said that team would break out this year), New York. Boston has the original big three, and New York has two superstars (and one PF on your list that you rated ABOVE Love, just sayin). But they can’t win. You wanna know the difference between this year and last year? The coaching. Kurt Rambis was an absolute idiot as a coach. He tried running the triangle offense. Who was going to lead that, I mean seriously.

    This argument is getting really old really fast because you rely so much on past history. When he was a rookie, Love came off the bench for Al Jefferson who, even in Utah is a black hole of a post player. When he finally got starter minutes, he produced. His next year, they traded Al and gave Love the starting spot, but still had Rambis coaching. They had Wes playing out of position, Ridnour starting with Johnny Flynn backing him up (failed 6th overall pick..), Michael Beasely being the featured player, and lastly Darko who can play defense but this year he’s basically in just to win the tip and leave. Now he has a REAL PG to feed him the ball that makes everyone better (look what Steve Nash has been able to do with bad teammates, Channing Frye is an awful player but Nash makes him look good). 

    I seriously do not understand where all this hate for Kevin Love is coming from. Ya’ll act like he’s garbage and can’t play. Yes he is not a superstar but he’s also only been in the league for three years and is just now getting better teammates and he is still producing big numbers. I’m pretty sure everyone would be saying he’s the best PF in the game if he was traded for Pau and still produced the same numbers and the only reason would be because then their team would be winning (Kobe is the only player besides Lebron who can take a bad team and still get a +.500 record). And guess what? The Wolves would get worse if they had Gasol instead of Love. Don’t forget that the Lakers DID offer that trade before the year started and the Wolves promptly rejected it.

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  • #627304
    AvatarAvatar
    Scottoant93
    Participant

    People are just looking for the "Next Big Thing"

    1. Like John Wall being the man last year not he is overrated

    2. Like rubio being a bust now he is awesome

    3. Like Kevin Love not gonna suceed now he is elite despite his team losing

    4.andre drummond being a cant miss prospect now he is overated

    and the list goes on and on and on….you get the point its actually amusing and irratating at the same time. Just wish people would stick to their opinions or predictions and just admit their wrong if it doesn’t happen instead playing i was always right game.

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  • #627305
    AvatarAvatar
    Scottoant93
    Participant

    yeah its what 15 games lol funny how people use that arguement against other people predictions but not against their own. I said bargs(raps havent won a game without him yet) was killing it this year what did i get its only been 8 games, lol cmon who are you kidding like i said if he leads his team to the plays of a above 500 record then we will talk.

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  • #627309
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    Other than BothTeamsPlayedHard maybe, I don’t think anybody on this site "hates" Kevin Love. I’ve never heard anybody say he was garbage and couldn’t play either. You’re overreacting.

    All I’ve ever read was that he wasn’t the best power forward in the league… That he wasn’t a superstar or franchise player. That his statistics weren’t necesarily leading to wins or making as great of a difference as one would think. I’ve read people who didn’t think he was an elite power forward.  

    Even during this thread, yupyup has said nothing to disrespect Love, but people are overreacting when he’s honestly on point with everything he’s writing.

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  • #627311
    AvatarAvatar
    Hale
    Participant

     I don’t hate Kevin Love for the record. Just because I rate 5 other PF’s ahead of him doesn’t mean that I don’t think he can play. If I give him a 9/10 and the 5 other guys between like 9.1 and 9.5 doesn’t mean I think he sucks.

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  • #627313
    AvatarAvatar
    Scottoant93
    Participant

    No love doesn’t suck he just have reached that level of elite yet. will he?probably Is he now? not til he wins games. Its sort of like the knicks having all those superstars and being awesome on offense(which they haven’t been but for the sake of this agruement pretend they are haha) and being horrible on defense….might get you to the playoffs but wont win you a championship

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  • #627314
    AvatarAvatar
    butidonthavemoney

    Agreed. Shameless flip-floping runs rampant through these parts. I’ve personally felt that Kevin Love was going to be a special player since he beat my old high school with a buzzer-beater back in ’06 (or ’07). I’ve also been on the record saying that he’s one of the best rebounders in the NBA, and that his numbers weren’t exclusively the product of playing for a horrible team. Love has those championship intangibles that set him apart from so many other players, and he’ll start winning with that roster eventually.

    All that being said, I don’t feel like he is the best power forward in the NBA, though Love vs. Griffin is a fun conversation.

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  • #627324
    AvatarAvatar
    llperez

    Regardless of where you stand on love, i think we can all agree that damn near this entire site and everyone else out there was wrong for bashing mchale and the wolves for trading mayo for love on draft day.

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  • #627328
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    darkman97
    Participant

    I give you credit for putting that list together of the different players people say are better than Love because they won more games. They all forget to say the supporting cast those "better" players had. Billyk called your list weak, but I would like to challenge him to put the list together supporting his view on Love’s teammates. (can’t wait to see the one that says formers #2 pick Darko and lottery pick Wes Johnson.) Please take the challenge Billyk honestly. If your arguement on not putting him higher on your PF chart is due to lack of wins then you are fooling yourself.

     

    For those that get insulted when someone says that Love is a #2 option on a championship level team, look at it this way. Why is that a bad thing? Clyde Drexler, Charles Barkley, Shaq or Kobe (depends on the year), Scottie Pippen, Tim Duncan and John Stockon were all considered at one time or another the #2 option on a team and all are or will be HOF players. Even in today’s game. Bosh, Wade, Westbrook and A. Stoudemire are all #2 or #3 options. So I think being called a second option isn’t as bad as some on here take it.

     

    The PF position is one of the hardest to put all the leadership role on. They don’t bring the ball up, and the offense doesn’t usually flow through them. Look at all the great former PF’s without rings. Charles Barkley, Karl Malone and Shawn Kemp. They had better teams than Love does and still didn’t win the the championship. We are forgetting that this is not MMA or boxing where it’s 1 on 1 this is a team sport and when he has the right team behind him he will win more games.

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  • #627343
    AvatarAvatar
    kngojc
    Participant

     Honestly though you can’t deny that the Wolves are an up and coming team. If Rubio, Wes, Beasely, Love, and Darko are all starting, their starters are all top 5 picks. Granted Darko isn’t that great but he also isn’t a scrub. This team WILL be good and it will heavily rely on the play of Love in the future. Adelman in my opinion favors the guards on his team more so he probably wouldn’t run the ball through Love but will make sure he gets his touches. If I were going to put together a list of the top 5 PF’s in the game right now I would put in this order: Aldridge, Love, Griffin, Nowitski, and Stoudemire. But going forward in the next 5 years, the whole battle is going to be between Love and Griffin which is great for the league because they are both high character and hugely talented guys.

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  • #627371
    AvatarAvatar
    PulseGlazer
    Participant

    Bosh is very, very good, but to say he’s as good as Love night in night out has become ridiculous.  Bosh can be unstoppable or he can dissapear.  Consistency counts for a lot in the NBA.  Same issue with Amare and Pau this year.  At this point Love is clearly better than any of those 3 night in and night out.  LaMarcus is better than Love at the moment, thanks largely to defense, and Dirk is better, simply because he’s so unstoppable.  After that, you get to like Blake Griffin and others who have issues as glaring as Love’s without the gaudy numbers and consistent improvement.  I’ve got Kevin as the #3 4 in the league right now, and I wouldn’t be shocked if he rises to the top within a year or two, though, obviously, Blake and Aldridge are huge barriers to that.  I really, really hate watching Blake play D, though, so I’m not as high on him as everyone else seems to be.  I don’t think I’m missing anyone but Zach Randolph, who I’m really going to need to see more than 1 mature, healthy year out of after damn near a decade of being a headcase.

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  • #627509
    AvatarAvatar
    billyk
    Participant

    “Kevin Love’s best teammates since becoming a starter:”

    Michael Beasley: 22 year old failed 2nd overall pick (that played solid on a playoff team, 15 and 6 For his career… How do you call Beasley a bust he is only 23 years old…)

    Ricky Rubio: 21 year old rookie (you could argue Rubio is the reason for the Timberwolves being so close to .500)

    Now, let’s look at the guys you said are better:

    Blake Griffin

    Eric Gordon: Up-and-coming SG averaging 22pp (I think there are a lot of people that would take Rubio over Gordon plus Gordon’s is injury proned)

    Chris Kaman: All-Star (was NOT playing like an all star in the matter of fact Jordan made him expendable)

    Baron Davis/Mo Williams: All-Stars (Mo “front runner” Williams shouldn’t made ANY all star game and Baron was a shell of his former self)

    Chris Paul: NBA All-star (first season together and they have a chance to be real good barring injuries)

    Chauncey Billups: All-Star, NBA Champion (waaaaay out of his prime, he’s basically a jump shooter at this point)

    Caron Butler: All-Star, NBA Champion (another player that’s way past his prime)

     Stoudemire

    Stephon Marbury: All-Star (played with a rookie Amare and they only played together for couple seasons)

    When he played with Marion, Johnson, and Nash dude was a BEAST, Shaq even called him the future of the NBA. Not only were those Suns team Great they were also exciting, this is the Amare the averaged 30 and 10 against Tim Duncan and a great Spurs defense in the 04 or 05 playoffs.

    I can make an argument that if you subtract Melo and Chandler off the Knicks and Rubio and Beasley off the Wolves, the Timberwolves would have a more talented roster. 

    Chris Bosh

    Vince Carter: All-Star (Bosh’s rookie year Vince Carter played his way out of Tornto, it was clear that we wanted to leave. Bosh kept the Raptors competitive when he was the face of the franchise.)

    Shawn Marion: All-Star, NBA Champion (Marion past his prime)

    With the  Heat Bosh as more than held his own in the regular season and playoffs, which he should of. Switch players would the Heat be as Dominant on Defense??

    Zach Randolph (it took last years playoffs for ZBOto be considered one of the best even though he’s 20 and 10 for his career). Could Love carry the a team like ZBO did as a go to player down the stretch?.

    Rasheed Wallace: All-Star, NBA Champion (they were a playoff team and Rashad was in his prime at the time. In his prime Rasheed Wallace was one of the best two players in the league)

    Derek Anderson: All-Star (was NOT an all star when he played for Portland I dont even remembering him making a all star game)

    LaMarcus Aldridge

    Brandon Roy: All-Star (really!?!? What happen when Roy started to decline LA stepped his game up, with Wallace and Crawford the Blazers a championship contenders with LA as their BEST player)

    Dirk Nowitzki (HOFER and perhaps the greatest shooting big man (mid range, 3pt) of all time. Dirk proven on the games biggest stage that he can be the ONE)

    Pau Gasol (Gay was a rookie that people doubt would ever pan out, Jackson was NOT an all star when he played with Pau, Miller was a rookie like Rubio)

    I believe that list is weak because you are naming players that were on decline or former all stars… It’s purely subjective list, using the logic of comparing the players Love plays with, with players that all those top Pf played with doesn’t make sense because most of those players except for Blake has been in the league for 6 years or more.

    “I think it’s fair to say that Kevin Love has not had anywhere near the quantity nor quality of talent as the other guys on your list. Thus, rendering your “He doesn’t win” argument pretty useless because none of those guys would have won if they did not play with so many All-Stars, NBA Champions and NBA veterans.”

    That’s an excuse how bout give Love time to prove he’s the best player by winning NOT by stats… I pefer to see players make their name by leading their team to the playoffs..  In time Minny might have a playoff team but let’s wait for that time before we consider him a superstar.. In the NBA greatness comes with making your teammates elevate their games and producing when it counts.. 

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  • #627583
    AvatarAvatar
    IndianaBasketball
    Participant

    When Love hits a game winner, everybody on the site goes nuts, but then when he lays a stinker the following night and is outplayed by his matchup, everyone is quiet.

    5-21, 1-7 three point… Love is shooting .41% from the field this season.

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  • #627631
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    PulseGlazer
    Participant

    Indiana – 3rd game in 4 nights and 2nd of a back-to-back.  It happens.

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  • #627861
    AvatarAvatar
    PulseGlazer
    Participant

    Did you see Gasol tonight?  Only 8 points on terrible shooting.  Clearly he can’t be among the top 4s.  Guys have off games.

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  • #627872
    AvatarAvatar
    Tongue-Out-Like-23
    Participant

    "Kevin Love’s best teammates since becoming a starter:"

    Michael Beasley: 22 year old failed 2nd overall pick (that played solid on a playoff team, 15 and 6 For his career… How do you call Beasley a bust he is only 23 years old…)
    I never said Beasley was a bust, I said he was a failed 2nd overall pick.  I mean, what has he done in his career that indicates he’s  worthy of being a 2nd overall pick?  Tell me.

    Ricky Rubio: 21 year old rookie (you could argue Rubio is the reason for the Timberwolves being so close to .500)
    Ricky Rubio is the reason that they’re .500?  So if you subtract Kevin Love from the Wolves, they would still be winning?  Get real.

    Now, let’s look at the guys you said are better:

    Blake Griffin

    Eric Gordon: Up-and-coming SG averaging 22pp (I think there are a lot of people that would take Rubio over Gordon plus Gordon’s is injury proned)
    Gordon was not injury prone when Griffin played with him.  Plus, Beasley hasn’t played this season, wouldn’t that subtract him from being one of Kevin Love’s best teammates as well since you want to disregard Eric Gordon because of injuries?  Too easy.  Plus, show me one person that would take Rubio over Gordon, aside from yourself.

    Chris Kaman: All-Star (was NOT playing like an all star in the matter of fact Jordan made him expendable)
    I agree, he didn’t play that well.

    Baron Davis/Mo Williams: All-Stars (Mo "front runner" Williams shouldn’t made ANY all star game and Baron was a shell of his former self)
    Shells of their former selves?  Mo Williams is still averaging his career average of 13PPG… OFF THE BENCH.

    Chauncey Billups: All-Star, NBA Champion (waaaaay out of his prime, he’s basically a jump shooter at this point)
    Just a jump shooter?  Try 4APG and 3RPG at this age while playing solid defense and tell me he’s just a jump shooter.  Plus, Chauncey Billups at this very moment is better than Rubio and an injured Beasley.

    Caron Butler: All-Star, NBA Champion (another player that’s way past his prime)
    May be past his prime, but a player that brings so many intangibles, toughness, defense, and 15ppg, he’s pretty damn good.  Brings more to the table than Beasley.

     Stoudemire

    Stephon Marbury: All-Star (played with a rookie Amare and they only played together for couple seasons)
    Starbury averages 20ppg and 8apg while Amar’e averaged 14ppg and 9rpg.  Amar’e was no slouch at the time.

    I can make an argument that if you subtract Melo and Chandler off the Knicks and Rubio and Beasley off the Wolves, the Timberwolves would have a more talented roster. 
    Well this is stupid.  If you take Kobe and Gasol off the Lakers; Dwight and Turk off the Magic, you can argue the Magic have more talent.  Obviously, if you’re going to subtract 2 of the best players on any team, it makes them worse.  What kind of counter-argument is that?

    Chris Bosh

    Vince Carter: All-Star (Bosh’s rookie year Vince Carter played his way out of Tornto, it was clear that we wanted to leave. Bosh kept the Raptors competitive when he was the face of the franchise.)
    That does not disregard the fact that Bosh played with an All-Star.  Plus, Bosh was a starter so it is not like he wasn’t playing with him.

    Shawn Marion: All-Star, NBA Champion (Marion past his prime)
    A Shawn Marion that was averaging 15ppg and 8rpg while shooting 49% from the field isn’t far from his prime.

    With the  Heat Bosh as more than held his own in the regular season and playoffs, which he should of. Switch players would the Heat be as Dominant on Defense??
    Is Bosh dominant on defense or is it because of the athleticism of LeBron and Wade that come on the weak side to double team or help?

    Zach Randolph (it took last years playoffs for ZBOto be considered one of the best even though he’s 20 and 10 for his career). Could Love carry the a team like ZBO did as a go to player down the stretch?.
    Has Love played with anybody as good as Marc Gasol, Rudy Gay, O.J. Mayo?  He hasn’t.  Has he had role players like Mike Conley, Darrel Arthur, Tony Allen, Sam Young, and Shane Battier?  I think not.  That team was so stacked with defensive talent, it wasn’t even funny.

    Rasheed Wallace: All-Star, NBA Champion (they were a playoff team and Rashad was in his prime at the time. In his prime Rasheed Wallace was one of the best two players in the league)
    So you agree that Rasheed Wallace is better than Beasley and Rubio?  Okay, just wanted to clear that up.

    Derek Anderson: All-Star (was NOT an all star when he played for Portland I dont even remembering him making a all star game)
    14ppg, 4rpg, 3apg.  He wasn’t a slouch at all. 

    LaMarcus Aldridge

    Brandon Roy: All-Star (really!?!? What happen when Roy started to decline LA stepped his game up, with Wallace and Crawford the Blazers a championship contenders with LA as their BEST player)
    Yeah, he did step up but that does not disregard that a regressing Brandon Roy was still better than Beasley and Rubio.  Plus, just adding that he’s playing with Wallace and Crawford again proves me right.  LaMarcus is and was playing with much more talent that Kevin Love has/is.  What exactly were you trying to argue there?

    Dirk Nowitzki (HOFER and perhaps the greatest shooting big man (mid range, 3pt) of all time. Dirk proven on the games biggest stage that he can be the ONE)
    Yes, but we can’t continue to give out life-time awards.  Dirk has had a terrible season and he has played with so many legendary players his entire career.

    Pau Gasol (Gay was a rookie that people doubt would ever pan out, Jackson was NOT an all star when he played with Pau, Miller was a rookie like Rubio)
    How are you going to say that Gay was doubted?  20ppg as a sophomore is no joke.  Plus, why are you disregarding the fact that Pau is playing with Kobe, Bynum, and Artest?  Pau was not known whatsoever until he teamed up with Kobe, Odom, and Bynum.  He had to start winning before he was put into the conversation as one of the top power forwards in the league.  He never made his Memphis teammates better than they were, Kobe is the one that made Pau look better than he is/was.

    I believe that list is weak because you are naming players that were on decline or former all stars… It’s purely subjective list, using the logic of comparing the players Love plays with, with players that all those top Pf played with doesn’t make sense because most of those players except for Blake has been in the league for 6 years or more.
    Do you not agree that these players have won because they play with better players than Kevin Love has in his career?  It’s a pretty simple question that you continue to dodge.

    That’s an excuse how bout give Love time to prove he’s the best player by winning NOT by stats… I pefer to see players make their name by leading their team to the playoffs..  In time Minny might have a playoff team but let’s wait for that time before we consider him a superstar.. In the NBA greatness comes with making your teammates elevate their games and producing when it counts..
    Just as you said, give Love time to win.  Writing him off now isn’t the right idea.  He’s never played with good players and that should not be a knock on him.  Wilt Chamberlain won ONE ring and he’s considered the greatest center of all time.  Why?  Because of stats.  Ridiculous stats.  Like the one’s Kevin Love is dropping night in and night out.

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  • #627883
    AvatarAvatar
    Future_Scout

     wait didn’t rose one of the most liked players say that he was the best pg and nuttriders on espn were saying they love his mentality bla bla bla… love is a top 3 PF and he knows it, he will start winning eventually

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  • #627908
    AvatarAvatar
    darkman97
    Participant

    You are right that after KLove’s stinker, his supporters went kinda mute, but it goes both ways. Love’s critics didn’t say much after the game winning shot either. In my case, I had to wait til work to get on a computer. But I was anticipating this question and think I came prepared.

    B. Griffin Jan 11 2012 9-23 39%

    Aldridge Jan 10 2012 8-20 40%

    Nowitzki Jan 7 2012 2-11 18%

    Bosh Jan 11 2012 6-16 37%

    P. Gasol Jan 16 3-11 27%

    Now all but Nowitzki was better than Love’s 23% but I’m pretty sure most were dunks on in-the-paint buckets due to the style of these particular players.

    This is also to you Indianabasketball, I want to go over some of the criticisms you have on Love.

    His shooting % is down for a PF. Well you know he has taken his game away from the basket. He is more of a jump shooter than a back to the basket type of player now. He is #15 from the 3pt line among forwards, and all the forwards before him are Small Forwards. Love is shooting way better than even Dirk from behind the line 35% to 23%

    Love doesn’t make his teammates better? I struggled with this one for a couple days. Wondering how to prove or disprove this arguement. Best thing I came up with is look at what the players did before they joined up with Love and how they are doing with Love. This is what I came up with.

    • Michael Beasley in MN 19.2 ppg, .7 bpg, 2.2 apg, .7 spg, 5.6 rpg. MIA 14.8 ppg, .6 bpg, 1.3 apg, 1.0 spg, 6.4 rpg
    • Darko Milicic in MN 8.8 ppg, 2.0 bp, .9 apg, .8spg, 5.2 rpg. Best other 8.0 ppg, 2.1 bpg, 1.1 apg, .6 spg, 6.1 rpg
    • Anthony Randolph in MN 11.7 ppg, .7 bpg,  1.1 apg, .8 spg, 5.2 rpg, Best other 11.6 ppg 1.5 bpg, 1.3 apg, 6.5 rpg
    • Luke  Ridnour in MN 11.8 ppg, .1bpg, 5.4 apg, 1.2 spg, 2.8 rpg. Best other 11.5 ppg, .3 bpg, 7.0 apg, 1.6 spg, 3.0 rpg

    Then there are the guys that played with Love then went elsewhere

    • Corey Brewer in MN 13 ppg, .4 bpg, 2.4 apg, 1.4 spg, 3.4 rpg. Dallas 5.3 ppg, .2 bpg, .9 apg, .9 spg, 1.8 rpg
    • Johnny Flynn in MN 135.ppg, .1 bpg, 4.4 apg .1 spg, 2.4 rpg. Houston No stats can’t even get on court

    Can’t say anything about Rubio, Ellington. Wes Johnson, D. Williams since we have no other stats of them playing without Love on their team.

    Open to any feedback

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