share

jason collins coming out

sheltwon3
sheltwon3's picture
Registered User
Joined: 03/30/2009
Posts: 6364
Points: 2607
Offline
Gay people also can not

Gay people also can not legally marry so telling me something is illegal is foolish if you can have people try to change a law to fit their sexual desires and since I am not a pedophile and I would assume you aren't either making a statement about what pedophilia is not really credible because if we do research from findings, a lot of stuff that was said about gay people could be said about pedophiles.

Also my point was how can you compare race and sexuality

I can easily put points why race and sexuality are entirely different.

A lot more than the points you have against the comparison of pedophilia and homosexuals.

The thing is I agree that they are different but so is race and sexuality and I can't stand that comparion.

It is a insult and for some reason so black people don't even consider that because they want to be part of something.

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2776
Points: 1775
Offline
No, actually Jason Collins is

No, actually Jason Collins is not getting married. just said he was gay which isn't illegal. Sodomizing a 4 year old boy is. The fact you think there are more linear comparisons between that then race and sexual preference just shows how unintelligent you are.

sheltwon3
sheltwon3's picture
Registered User
Joined: 03/30/2009
Posts: 6364
Points: 2607
Offline
I am doing anything but

I am doing anything but asking question but there you go judging my statement not by what is said but your own mindset. Also pedophilia is pedophilia and in some country, there is no age of consent so are you saying they are wrong when they have no laws that say as such. If you say they are morally wrong, why can't I say gay people are morally wrong.

There was no logic used. You gave me opinions. The few facts you did use is not relevant to all countries

Gay marriage in most states and some countries is illegal.

In the Christian faith and other beliefs, it is morally wrong.

So what are your sources or facts to go against mine.

I bring facts. You can fact what I say to a credible source but you said is highly debateable because most are your opinions.

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2776
Points: 1775
Offline
A lot of good points have

A lot of good points have been made here, expecially from JoeWolf and Indiana.

Just want to make a point about Broussard though.

What is the point of religion? Isn't it that you can choose what you believe in? There are various religions in this world, and you can choose to follow any of them, or none of them. That is a choice. There isn't anything wrong with it. You can also take the Christianity religion, and follow it the way to want to follow it. Very very few Christians follow EVERY SINGLE THING from the bible. Those who do are mostly the super duper Christians, and most of them actually do freak out every time someone does anything unethical.

Then there are those, like Broussard, who are deciding they follow every single thing the Bible stands for based on situation. The point of the Bible, and the point of God, has nothing to do with men liking other men. The point of god was never a negative, it was a positive. People who do bad things are condemned to hell. Someone having feelings for someone of the same sex is not a bad thing. That is not a debatable argument. There is nothing immoral or wrong about it. If Chris wants to follow every line of the Bible, how bout his pal Bron...didn't he have a kid when he was 19 and unmarried? Not only was this not a story, but Chris was far from the first person going on OTL and reciting bible verses about premarital sex.

Almost every single Christian sins in one form another. But most choose to follow what THEY believe in, and they feel as though living that moral life is the right thing to do. Any logical Christian would look at the homosexually debate, and say "Wow, this doesn't really make any sense, even if it is in the Bible". And with most things, like that aforementioned shell fish and such, we do that. But for some reason, these homophobic &$#%#&@! continue to use it as a source of importance.

Also, I doubt very much Chris knows Jason Collins personally. How does he know the details of Jason's faith? Chris comes off as someone who basically thinks anything against Christianity is wrong. Did Chris hate Kareem Abdul Jabar because he was of a different religion? Probably not. He probably goes to Laker games and pretends he knows him, like he pretends he is friends with LBJ, who committed a sin in being a part of the conceiving of a child pre-marriage. But Chris doesn't want to defend all of these points, or care about them. He just knows he that he feels uncomfortable around gay people, and conveniently the bible forbids homosexuality.

I respect Chris for having his own opinions, and not just giving in to what a network wants to hear. But he could have easily said "I am a practicing Christian, so I am probably not the right guy to talk to on this". Instead he basically tried to make Jason seem like a villain, or that what he is doing is wrong. Not only that, but he had to throw in their that "He knows NBA players who would feel uncomfortable with a gay player in the lockerroom". That had nothing to do with God. That had to do with the point he was trying to make that was that their is no place for an open gay player in the NBA.

In short, with Chris' words yesterday, he is trying to set us back a generation. Isn't the point of god to forgive and understand? If the god Chris believes in is looking down on us, don't you think he is understanding of the climate and feelings people like Jason go through? Or does he say "Nope, he's gay, no heaven for him". Think about it. It's not as complex as some Christians make it out to be. It's common sense.

sheltwon3
sheltwon3's picture
Registered User
Joined: 03/30/2009
Posts: 6364
Points: 2607
Offline
Regardless of what some

Regardless of what some people do that is wrong, you can't be a believer in Christ(Christian is not the best term) and not follow his teachings.

That is illogical.

People can say whatever they want and it does not have to be true.

I am sure this is easy for gay people who are used to lying and saying they are straight when all along they were gay.

There are fundamental differences between a follower or Christ and people who do not follow Christ and we should not have the same title.

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2776
Points: 1775
Offline
So every person who follows

So every person who follows Christ hasn't had premarital sex, right?

sheltwon3
sheltwon3's picture
Registered User
Joined: 03/30/2009
Posts: 6364
Points: 2607
Offline
Please explain your

Please explain your logic

There is a difference in living a sinful lifestyle and not acknowledging you are doing wrong versus sinning because of the weakness of your flesh. If you are not a Christian and read the word you would not understand.

My point if you don't understand where someone is coming from and don't do your research, why speak on something.

I actually have done some research of homosexuality and there is no conclusive evidence that they are born that way and it is a sin as written in the bible.

Gay people also can't naturally produce kids

The way most gay people engage is sex their bodies were not meant to be used in the fashion and it will cause problems and they have a medical history on these things that anyone that searches can find.

repentant sin and unrepentant sin are different. That is like the different between you trying to make a shot and missing versus purposely missing the shot.

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2776
Points: 1775
Offline
Here is the logic. If you

Here is the logic.

If you follow something that tell you that two adults, who have mutual interest for each other, should not pursue an emotional relationship, and you agree with this, then you are a sad human being.

Jesus was around over 2000 years ago. Times were much much much different. Religion is free for interpretation. And if you live a life saying "Well, I am against gay people because over 2000 years ago someone wrote it in a book", that is your decision to make. But if someone else says "God did a lot of things right, but clearly, some things from the bible are outdated and are not bad" that is also not wrong. They are free to make that decision.

Jason Collins said: "In my opinion, the ability to love another person is one of God's greatest gifts, and I thank God every day for enabling me to give and share love with the people in my life." That is the way Collins interprets God. You can interpret God differently, but it is not your place to tell others how they must do so.

It is debatable whether homosexuality should be accepted by religious followers. What is not debatable is that it should be socially acceptable.

sheltwon3
sheltwon3's picture
Registered User
Joined: 03/30/2009
Posts: 6364
Points: 2607
Offline
A person could call

A person could call themselves a rhino and you would think they were crazy.

Unfortunately a lot of world structure of Christian faith has been tainted long before I was born and we can't undo the mistakes but we can follow the word and not accept anybody or any group that says they are part of Christ yet don't follow him.

Chilbert arenas
Chilbert arenas's picture
Registered User
Joined: 06/22/2009
Posts: 2773
Points: 6531
Offline
Bayard Rustin

Bayard Rustin, enough said.

sheltwon3
sheltwon3's picture
Registered User
Joined: 03/30/2009
Posts: 6364
Points: 2607
Offline
I looked it up and I don't

I looked it up and I don't see what this is meant to support. A gay black man supported civil rights for black people which being black he was part of.

He tried to hide it but when it came out, a lot of the groups back then distanced themselves from him.

This does not suggest that sexuality and race is the same. It actually support more that they are different.

Also the rules to criminalize gay people was not written by black people so I don't see the correlation.

Nbanflguy
Nbanflguy's picture
Registered User
Joined: 06/15/2009
Posts: 1824
Points: 8203
Offline
Can not stand people that use

Can not stand people that use a 2000 year old book to spew hatred.

"If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her." - Deuteronomy 22:28-29

Yep, the bible's full of gems.

JoeWolf1
JoeWolf1's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/28/2009
Posts: 8124
Points: 16244
Offline
Sex Slavery? Yep, but you can

Sex Slavery? Yep, but you can only have sex with her she's your captive for a month and if you grow tired of her, just let her go...

Deuteronomy 21: 10-14

10 When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. 12 Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails 13 and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. 14 If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.

Chilbert arenas
Chilbert arenas's picture
Registered User
Joined: 06/22/2009
Posts: 2773
Points: 6531
Offline
@sheltwon

I wasn't trying to say race and sexuality are the same thing, I agree with you on that, but I've studied Rustin for years and the fact is he organized the million man march, he introduced non-violent protest to MLK, and much more, he didn't support Civil Rights he was an integral part of the movement but is never discussed because of his sexuality. I don't really have a point I just think he's an important figure in both movements that should be discussed.

sheltwon3
sheltwon3's picture
Registered User
Joined: 03/30/2009
Posts: 6364
Points: 2607
Offline
No problem, I appreciate that

No problem, I appreciate that you actually brought something to the table that gave me knowledge.

Tongue-Out-Like-23
Tongue-Out-Like-23's picture
Registered User
Joined: 03/16/2010
Posts: 8306
Points: 11870
Offline
This is the only thing I

This is the only thing I could think of while everyone was arguing.

417basketballfan
Registered User
Joined: 12/14/2011
Posts: 200
Points: 103
Offline
sin

Nobody said that if you had pre-marital sex that you can't go to heaven. That's just a sin. The bottom line is that if you deny self, die to self and follow christ with your whole heart you will go to heaven. Now a person that has had pre-marital sex can turn things around if they realize what they have done is wrong and they don't try to habitually practice that. This can also be with any other type of sin (lusting, lying, hating etc..).LIke I said earlier when your filled with the spirit of God you don't want to sin.. your filled with the holy spirit and how God wants to use you and not your fleshly desires Just like if I lust daily and that's what my thoughts are constantly then I have my mind on my desires and not Gods desires.

For those with the argument that we shouldn't be able to control people's preferences, you're wrong. That's all laws are. If I preferred not to work and instead steal for a living is that ok? What if an older man preferred girls who were underage? What if I preferred that somebody not be alive anymore? If all sin is equal (as stated in the Bible) and we make one sin acceptable, than there is no longer a place to draw the line. All sin is the same in God's eyes, and as Christians, it's not our purpose to please man, but to please God.

For the "He who is sinless throw the first stone" argument: we're not here to condemn to death. We as Christians are supposed to be a support group of Christian believers aimed at weakening the temptations of sin. By allowing homosexual marriage, we as a country and Christian community are publicly failing at our calling to help lift our fellow man above sin. I'm not sinless, nobody is, but when Jesus stopped the stoning of the woman from the story, he told her to "go and sin no more". Approving gay marriage is like telling a sinner to keep sinning. I'm no Biblical scholar, but I'm pretty sure Jesus doesn't tell anybody that.

So to my fellow Christians, stand firm in your faith. Christianity ruffles feathers. That's just the nature of the world we live in. Act like your faith is worth fighting for. Strength is built in times of adversity. You can either build strength or show your weakness.

Christianity is not about doing what is happy for you... its about doing god will and if you follow God you will have joy when your filled with the spirit regardless of the circumstances.
John 4:13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2776
Points: 1775
Offline
Pretty much everything you

Pretty much everything you said is wrong. Yes, there are laws preventing rape and stealing. There aren't laws preventing gay people from liking each other. It's not your call, it's theres. You can continue to believe that things that were written 2000 years ago can't change at all, then you are totally out of touch with reality

JoeWolf1
JoeWolf1's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/28/2009
Posts: 8124
Points: 16244
Offline
You are and all Christians

You are and all Christians are absolutely entitled to your beliefs and opinions, but you can't cite the Bible as a reason to make a law. This isn't a theocracy and although the Bible is indeed full of some good ideas and ideals that we use as law, you can't just pick out a couple verses in that also result in the unequal treatment of citizens.

You continue to deny homsexuals rights because of the Bible, then why not start pardoning parents who murdered their disobedient childern? That's in the Bible, in Duteronomy.

That's fine you have a strong faith, but when it comes to Christianity and American law, those who are not Christians get freaking sick and tired of Christians, "sinners" themselves ( For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God Romans 3:23 ) telling everyone else that they think everything is a sin and how Christianity is right, but they can't prove it, it just is. If there is an aggressive tone among atheists and agnostics, it's out of frustration with Christians beating the Bible and trying to force their views upon others.

I realzie in my venting, it could also be viewed as me forcing my views on others, but we're just voicing our opinions and that's great. Keep strictly religious matters out of the law.

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2776
Points: 1775
Offline
As JoeWolf has said, I too am

As JoeWolf has said, I too am not trying to make anyone agree with my opinion. I am just simply stating that people are entitled to their own opinions and feelings. If Jason Collins believes that he can still follow god despite being gay, that is his choice.

Most of you saying the bible is the letter of the law wouldn't agree with many of the passages people have posted in this thread, discussing some of the ludacris things the Bible does say. Times change. There's no one around to update the Bible. Back 2000+ years ago, it was a completely different society people lived in.

417basketballfan
Registered User
Joined: 12/14/2011
Posts: 200
Points: 103
Offline
bible

All of our laws were based off the bible. Our countries laws was based off the bible. Public education was started to educate every individual to read the bible for themselves. Most people don't want to believe the bible because you can't make up your own rules and laws. You have to obey a standard set by the highest power (God). And people just frankly want to do whatever they want. Therefore creating themselves as god which is idolatry due viewing yourself as an idol. But yes the all the laws were based off the bible

JoeWolf1
JoeWolf1's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/28/2009
Posts: 8124
Points: 16244
Offline
Speeding? Jaywalking? Tax

Speeding? Jaywalking? Tax rates? Seperation of Church and State? Freedom to bear arms? Common...

butidonthavemoney
butidonthavemoney's picture
Registered User
Joined: 02/26/2009
Posts: 6163
Points: 9871
Offline
Not Even Close

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion" - US Senate in the Treaty of Tripoli, 1797

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof', thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." - Thomas Jefferson, 1802

417basketballfan
Registered User
Joined: 12/14/2011
Posts: 200
Points: 103
Offline
society

Today we live in a society that doesn't want to be their wrong, and doesn't want to answer to anybody else.

IndianaBasketball
IndianaBasketball's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/09/2009
Posts: 12676
Points: 23869
Offline
I'm going to go ahead and

I'm going to go ahead and exit this thread, and get back to talking basketball.

It's clear that if you're a Christian who follows the bible and who doesn't believe in homosexuality, you're wrong.

I think this thread is full of hypocrisy. The same people who are criticizing other people's beliefs are the same people who are spewing their own.

Some of you are no different than the people that are criticizing Jason Collins.

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2776
Points: 1775
Offline
Indiana, you are allowed to

Indiana, you are allowed to read the Bible, and agree with raping and then marrying women, as well as the terror of homosexuality. If that is your life, that is fine.

For those of us who don't agree with that, we aren't wrong either. People like Jason Collins have the right to believe and follow good regardless of if he's gay or not. That's the point.

I never in any way stated that these hardcore Christians aren't allowed to follow everything they want to follow. I do, however, find it hard to believe that all of these people who are appalled by homosexuality follow every single thing the Bible says. That's all. Again, its not that hard. Chris Broussard can be who he wants to be. I just think in many cases, it is a cop out to use the Bible as the reason you don'tlike homosexuality. There are so many things from the Bible that society doesn't still follow or appreciate.

IndianaBasketball
IndianaBasketball's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/09/2009
Posts: 12676
Points: 23869
Offline
Indiana, you are allowed to

Indiana, you are allowed to read the Bible, and agree with raping and then marrying women, as well as the terror of homosexuality. If that is your life, that is fine.
---

I have a problem with this on a MAJOR level and I find it offensive to be honest. That is NOT what we agree with and that is NOT how the bible is interpreted either.

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2776
Points: 1775
Offline
I really don' care what you

I really don' care what you find offensive. Your argument makes absolutely no sense and you try to outsmart everyone into thinking you are makings sense when you aren't.

If you are against homosexuality because of the Bible, then clearly, you just will take anything in the Bible and decide that it must be fact, and it must stay the same to this day. There is no other logical argument for just opening defying the support of homosexuality. But then again, you said that parts of the Bible are old and times have changed, which is just hypocritical.

To Sum it up....

*verse about homsexuality* Indiana: This is cut and dry

*verse about rape* Indiana: This isn't being interpreted right.

Please explain how that makes any damn sense...

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2776
Points: 1775
Offline
I honestly think there is a

I honestly think there is a disconnect between everything I have said and how you have perceived it.

From reading back at the points you were making, I do apologize as I understand what you were trying to say. I did get one post mixed up with something I thought you said in terms of the verse about homosexuality which you didn't so that is my fault and my bad.

Everyone is absolutely entitled to their own feelings. And you are right, everyone is allowed to inerpret things how they please. But you say that, yet use it to defend Broussard. Broussard stated his own feelings, but in a way that made it seem as if there was a standard for Christians that a gay person couldn't possibly live up to. The point of interpretation is exactly what Collins represents here. He is able to interpret God how he pleases, so why does anyone need to question that because they are putting there beliefs above it.

Most of my arguments using comparisons about the Bible verses that are entirely flawed is that in my own opinion, that fact that people find those outdated is no different then finding the one about homosexuality outdated as well. I am NOT saying you are wrong if you are just a hardcore Christian. What I am saying is, Chris isn't exactly discussing LBJ's premarital sex like it is something that makes him unworthy of God. And I know you didn't think that's what Chris was doing, but a lot of people including myself didn't see it like that. If homosexuality is still seen as sin, as something terrible, and Christians who see that the times have changed in terms of rape and slavery and all those other things don't see the homosexuality as a thing of the past as well, I just think that is troubling. A lot of religions, including some Christian ones of have began to accept homosexuality for this reason. And I wouldn't be surprised if that is one of the ones Jason is about part of.

I guess what has led to me making questionable posts is that I don't at all see this as a cynical story. And that is what Chris, and many many people in this thread have made it. This is a great day for Jason Collins, and gay people all over the country. It shouldn't be rained on by people living in the past because that is a choice they are making, not one worth arguing others are defying by moving on with the times.

Ghost01
Ghost01's picture
Registered User
Joined: 11/30/2010
Posts: 2776
Points: 1775
Offline
Maybe this analogy is better

Maybe this analogy is better and more sports related...

Chris is like that kid who comes on this site after Lebron drops 45 and 12 assists and talks about all the flaws in his game.

I just thought the timing was questionable.

417basketballfan
Registered User
Joined: 12/14/2011
Posts: 200
Points: 103
Offline
@IndianaBasketball

Your right nobody is going to change their opinion either way. So i'm going to go back to talking basketball

sheltwon3
sheltwon3's picture
Registered User
Joined: 03/30/2009
Posts: 6364
Points: 2607
Offline
I agree with yall but is

I agree with yall but is always good to put the information there for those that do believe but are scared to say something. There are probably a lot of people who felt the way Broussard did but they kept quiet and he didn't.

Also I never said anything bad about Jason Collins that wasn't true.

He admitted he lied.

Also as the Christian bible is written and other religious text, living a unrepentant lifestyle is not following Christ or attempting to follow Christ.

When you quit killing off your fleshy desires you have basically quit trying to be a Christian. That does not mean you can't change and be redeemed but the does mean you need to change.

Saul was against believers before he became Paul but after that he became a believer and helped write many books in the New testament and helped established many churches.

IndianaBasketball
IndianaBasketball's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/09/2009
Posts: 12676
Points: 23869
Offline
@FvckSwag666I get a kick out

@FvckSwag666

I get a kick out of you. One minute you're saying, "A lot of good points have been made here, expecially from JoeWolf and Indiana" and the next you're saying, "Your argument makes absolutely no sense and you try to outsmart everyone into thinking you are makings sense when you aren't."

I don't think it's hypocritical to suggest that there are some things in the Bible that are clear and to the point, while there are other things in the Bible that need clarification by a pastor, minister, etc. I'm thankful to have a pastor, who's also my uncle, so I talk to him as much as I can.

I disagree with quite a few things you've said in this thread. You said that Christians believe gay people shouldn't exist. Huh? That's not even close to being true. There are people who are drunks, commit adultery and commit many other sins... That doesn't mean those people shouldn't exist. You basically said that Christians believe that gay people are making the world a worse place... Like what are you talking about? That's simply not true. There are a lot of gay people that are making the world a better place. Then just above you said that some religions some Christianity are beginning to "accept" homosexuals. Once again... What are you talking about? Homosexuals have been accepted. Christians view homosexuality as a sin, not a plague. It's no greater than any other sin. I've grew up being taught that God is forgiving and that he loves all of us. Trust me... I sit in a church with homosexuals, drunks and probably sinners of every kind... Everyone just trying to get right and develop their own personal relationship with God.

I'll end it just like I started. To each is own. I don't have a problem with what Chris Broussard said, which was his own *personal* belief (which he's stated before years ago) and I think the people criticizing him are no different than the people criticizing Jason Collins. The same way Collins should feel free to announce that he is gay, Boussard should feel free to announce that he doesn't believe in homosexuality (he also mentioned he doesn't agree with adultery, pre-marital sex, etc either). I think the society needs to be tolerant of both beliefs (as well as other beliefs) without bashing the other.

rwd5035
Registered User
Joined: 07/04/2011
Posts: 325
Points: 405
Offline
Even when I was a kid and my

Even when I was a kid and my dad would take me to church, I never fully bought into the bible or following God. I try not to demean or insult people who do want that and have that belief, if you want to believe in a higher power and that helps, then so be it, I wished I wasn't so cynical to the whole thing that I could believe. The only thing I really remember from Sunday School was be a good person and being a good person is what is the most important thing. That's really the only thing that has stuck with me, I try to be as good of a person I can given my circumstances every single day. If Jason Collins is a good person and does good things for others, then I don't see why God wouldn't accept him into heaven. (Again, I don't believe in heaven or a God).

Good for Jason Collins on coming out (I don't believe it should be a huge deal because gay people can be as successful in anything as straight people can. Being gay has no effect on Jason Collins's ability to do his job well, that's why it doesn't matter to me. I understand it matters to others but I'm not one of them). If he believes he can be homosexual and still be a good Christian, then that is is his choice and his belief. Who are you to try and take that away from him? And if your answer is he's a hypocrite, then I wonder what things you do in your daily life that are hypocritical to what the bible says.

ProudGrandpa
ProudGrandpa's picture
Registered User
Joined: 12/12/2009
Posts: 3342
Points: 3336
Offline
My Stance as a Christian

First, I'd like to say that I love how this thread has caused God to be discussed without anyone intending to take it in that direction. It's great. And I basically have respected the arguments of everyone who's posted here and the non-confrontational tone that's been maintained. And I especially like IndianaBasketball's take on things, he has argued the Christian perspective very well.

Now, I must first say that, as a Christian, yes, I think having homosexual relations and living a homosexual lifestyle is wrong. THAT BEING SAID (and don't stop reading, I'm about to differentiate myself from other ignorant, hate-mongering Christians):

1) Homosexuality is just another sin, just like lying or looking at a woman lustfully, and there's nothing about it that should make Christians focus on it more than any other sin.

2) I honestly don't even care whether homosexual marriage is legalized. It's not unconstitutional and it doesn't affect me. SO fine. Whatever.

3) I do NOT believe that it's the government's place to ban gay marriage. If churches refuse to marry gays, I am behind them whole-heartedly. But there's really no justification for the government to ban it. The whole "This nation was founded on Christianity" is a farce and I don't believe it.

4) We as Christians are completely wrong if we go around condemning gay people and being hostile to them and telling them they're wrong. Imagine if we tried to pass legislation to ban divorce (also a sin) or to make everyone give away 10% of their income (a Biblical commandment). That'd be ludicrous! So the fact that Christians are trying to pass a gay marriage ban is, if you think about it, ridiculous. We can't go legislating our believes on people who don't share them.

5) Homosexuality in itself is not a sin. I do not think that people CHOOSE to be gay. I think it is a desire that comes naturally to some and I pity those who are forced to go through life like that. Now, selfishness and greed are desires to. And if we have them, we must control them. It is the ACTING on these desires that is a sin.

6) I respect Jason Collins for doing what he thought was right in the face of potential adversity from a nation that contains a lot of homophobes. I have no problem with his coming out.

7) I respect Chris Broussard for respectfully and educatedly expressing his beliefs WHEN ASKED. He didn't lie, he didn't try to force his beliefs on others. He just answered the question that was asked of him in a way that glorifies his lord and savior.

8) MOST IMPORTANTLY, the #2 commandment for Christians is to love our fellow humans with the love of Christ. Not to condemn their sins. Not to "wipe the scourge of homosexuality from the face of the Earth". To love. ANd when we get in the face of gay people and persecute them and make Facebook posts about the issue and kick them out of our church, a church full of imperfect people, that is wrong. So I will show love to gay people, I will not try to legislate my beliefs on others, and if a gay person wants to watch the NBA Playoffs with me, hey, that's cool with me. I watch them with my friend, Trevor, and he is a compulsive liar, but I like him anyways.

IndianaBasketball
IndianaBasketball's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/09/2009
Posts: 12676
Points: 23869
Offline
This is perfect. 100%

This is perfect. 100% perfect.

This is the best post you've ever made IMO lol.

ProudGrandpa
ProudGrandpa's picture
Registered User
Joined: 12/12/2009
Posts: 3342
Points: 3336
Offline
Thanks, IB. You're one of my

Thanks, IB. You're one of my most highly-respected posters and it means a lot. Sucks that it had to be on a non-basketball-related post, but hey, I'll take it.

Honestly, though, God put the right words in my mouth.

JoeWolf1
JoeWolf1's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/28/2009
Posts: 8124
Points: 16244
Offline
I am not a Christian, but I

I am not a Christian, but I was raised as such. Like rwd, I could just never buy it, I never missed a Sunday for 18 years, but when I went out on my own I've never been back unless visiting my relatives. My immeadiate family boasts three ministers and the opinions within my own family on the matter vary quite a bit. None are opinions of hate, though. I really don't take any issue with the other view point and how they reach it, I just feel that our government should not be invovled in denying homosexual rights, at all.

Another background piece of information about me, is that I'm from Kansas and have lived as close as 30 miles to the Westboro Babtist Church. They picketed my wife's college graduation, they freaking picket everything and in Kansas our state government is ridiculous, often passing laws that protect "Christian's" ability to fire people from their jobs for being gay. Now, I'm not an expert on the Bible, but passing laws so Christians cannot treat their neighbors as themselves sounds about as ass backwards as it goes. All while doing nothing about other Biblical laws, hence my strong stance on the absurdities of the Old Testament. It's infuriating, and I honestly only know a couple gay people, I just think it's a ridiculous injustice in my state and region.

Now, I know every Christian is not a Phelps or a Brownback, but it's not like all Christians accept homosexuals and that is that. Again my family is 70 strong and they are wonderful people, I certainly have nothing against Christians and I hope I didn't come accross in that manner. Some Christian members of this site seem to be accepting and care about loving others like memebers of my own family do. I can respect that, I just think that in discussing this, we can't ignore that there are people out there that in the name of God ( maybe not how you interprit him ) are doing wrong by an entire community.

IndianaBasketball
IndianaBasketball's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/09/2009
Posts: 12676
Points: 23869
Offline
@JoeWolf1 That sucks to read

@JoeWolf1

That sucks to read what you've experienced in your state and region. I've never experienced or seen that here in Indianapolis or anywhere else that I've been...

However, it's not surprising. Just like anything in life, you're going to have people who do things the right way and people who do things the wrong way. This is no different. You have police officers who abuse their power. You have teachers who treat select kids unfairly/poorly. You have fathers who molest their kids. You have mothers who leave their children. You have the same military men who are protecting our country, also committing major embarrassing crimes. You have politicians who are shady and greedy. You have crooked CEO's. There are some Muslims who hate America and are terrorists. So on and so on. However, I like to think and believe that there are a lot more people out there doing it the right way than the wrong way. I refuse to let a group of people not doing it the right way push me away from what I believe in.

There are a lot of people doing wrong by entire communities... In the name of God and in the name of whatever else they can come up with. Unfortunately, that's the world we live in.

BO-Lieve
Registered User
Joined: 11/28/2012
Posts: 489
Points: 758
Offline
sh1t got real

sh1t got real

Im Your Father
Im Your Father's picture
Registered User
Joined: 06/06/2009
Posts: 1231
Points: 1698
Offline
I'm just going to leave this

I'm just going to leave this here.

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual "uncleanliness" - Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there degrees of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14) I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your adoring fan.

James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus, Dept. Of Curriculum, Instruction, and Special Education, University of Virginia.

PS (It would be a damn shame if we couldn't own a Canadian)

ProudGrandpa
ProudGrandpa's picture
Registered User
Joined: 12/12/2009
Posts: 3342
Points: 3336
Offline
Don't be Ignorant

There are three passages in the very relevant New Testament condemning homosexuality:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_New_Testament

Hale
Hale's picture
Registered User
Joined: 05/08/2009
Posts: 5934
Points: 12818
Offline
This is hilarious. Go Im Your

This is hilarious. Go Im Your Father!

RSS: Syndicate content