right now and in 5 yrs... he's just better!
Right now Irving is playing a lot better than Wall but if Wall gets his sh*t right, he can be a scary combination of Rondo's defense/pass ability + Westbrooks athleticism and offense.
I'd put my money that Wall is better in five years.
lets slow down a little. i wanna see how wall does with teammates who's IQs are higher than that of a chimpanzee
kyrie is better than him in almost every advanced statistic OR regular statistic. wall is second on his team in
+/- with -187 (first mcgee with -220). wall is not efficient and his team will never win a championship
I just wanna start by saying that Wall is getting a lot of criticism lately and I think it's all very unwarrented. The Wizards organization have provided Wall with the worse possible environment to become successfull and negativity breads negativity and losing breads more losing and the Wizards are filled with negative losers. Then you he started the year with a lame duck coach who eventually got fired so their team is just out of wacks. Then the team is filled out with so many young players who don't have a clue, and Rashard Lewis whose exhibit A on why the lockout happened. And imagine trying to share a backcourt with Nick Young and Jordan Crawford, both those guys think they're Kobe. Wall is going to be a very good player for a long time if he stays healthy.
But with that said I've already saw enough to know Kyrie Irving is the better player. Irving like Chris Paul when he came into the league, just knows how to win. Also, Irving is an amazing shooter, and he's only going to get better, this guy is a better scorer then most people realize. He's scoring way too easy for a 19 year old rookie PG. I can see him averaging over 25 ppg in 2 years because he looks like he's going to turn into a deadly 3 point shooter who you won't be able to keep out of the lane, which is a terrifying combo.
taking a look at today +/- in wiz vs lac, wall leads the category with a nice -23.
not to mention that you can make a case that wall's game has worsen since his rookie year
as i watch espn i see that wall ranks 5th in most TOs throughout their first 6 starts. with 30
John Wall is the primary and ONLY ball-handler on that roster. I mean, seriously, take a look at it. You have dark-hole Nick Young, Jordan Crawford, Shelvin Mack. Who of those players is a better ball-handler or even a secondary ball-handler compared to Wall? None of them are.
By the way, turnover stats are sometimes misused and don't tell the entire story. You can't base your entire opinion or even partly base your opinion on turnovers. Take a look at these guys:
- Pete Maravich : 5 TO/PG
- Charles Barkley: 4.7 TO/PG
- Allen Iverson: 4.6 TO/PG and 4.4 TO/PG
- Magic Johnson: 4.6 TO/PG
- Artis Gilmore: 4.5 TO/PG
I see that list and I won't take away anything from what those players did in their careers. They had great careers and a season or two of a high turnover rate did not change anybody's opinion on them.
Hell, as a matter of fact, Karl Malone leads the league in turnovers all-time... and we all know what his body of work looks like.
he's the primary ball handler? you sure of that? because statistically jordan crawford AND nick young have the ball in their hands more than wall.
crawford usg% at 27
nick young usg% 25.7
wall usg% 25
which imo wall shouldn't allow in the first place... irving already demands the ball more with a 26.6 usg%
i hate to bring up the stats but numbers don't lie.
I'm not a huge fan of John Wall, but his +/- is one of the worst in his team because his team just loses and he plays a lot of minutes.
I do think he hasn't had the right people teaching him in washington. He needs to improve his outside shot to make his defender think a little. Now people know exactly what he'll do. He is very good at slashing, but he will shoot a bad % if all he does is take contested layups.
I'm gonna take John Wall for the future. What hurts him is he doesn't have a good coach to mentor him and the roster is immature.
Irving has a decent supporting cast and a PG coach in Byron Scott...dude started for the Lakers from 84-93, mentored Kobe in his final season, coached Jason Kidd and Chris Paul. And coached the Nets to the finals twice
" wall shouldn't allow in the first place... irving already demands the ball more with a 26.6 usg%" . this
These predictions are just silly. How knows? Maybe Irving will be able to average 10 assists/game one day, maybe not. Maybe Wall will fix his jumper and learn to slow down, in which case he'll be scary, maybe not.
Irving is younger and has less experience, but that doesn't mean he has a steeper learning curve than Wall; I'd say the opposite is true, actually.
Right now, I'd take Irving, but in 5 years? Impossible to know.
no matter how good Irving plays he just hasn't scoring and defensive potential Wall has and all i thought he can do better is being a more true pg..and while Irving has a little better teammates and still can't get more than 5 apg i have no ideao why i should take him while i see Wall 20/5/10 monster sooner or later
The usage stats tells the % a player has the ball while he is on the court, so since Wall plays more minutes then Young and Crawford they are going to have a higher %. Plus they're stats are inflated by how much they iso with the ball, like Wall will pass the ball to Young for an open 3 only to find him jab stepping then reverse pivoting then taking two dribbles, then he'll repeat that process and eventually he'll shoot a contested fade away. Jordan Crawford get's the ball and dribbles around for 20 seconds before taking a bad shot.
And Irving isn't even playing 30 minutes a game yet so even tho his usage rate is higher he doesn't have the ball in his hands as much as Wall does during the course of a game.
But I seriously can't get over Irvings shooting %. Does anybody think that's gonna go down this year, they were like this at Duke tho. This guy needs to start getting more credit for being a phenomenal shooter. He's looking like Steve Nash shooting in just his rookie year.
I agree Wall has more densive potential and is a better passer he doesn't have more scoring potential then Irving at all. Irving is going to probably be averaging 20ppg by the end of the year shooting a torrid %. He's already averaging 18 ppg shooting 50% from the field and over 40% from 3 and he;s still only 19 years old.
People are greatly underestimating Irving's scoring. He's elite there with good enough court vision and good size and speed on D. Is there a reason he can't be the third or fourth best PG in 3 years? No. Wall's reasoning would be stunted development from his terrible situation, so it seems less likely, but look at the difference Thibs made on Rose.
Yeah, the shooting percentage is out of control for Irving. If he keeps this up for a year, you can make a case for him being one of the best scorers in the league, even if he doesn't score a huge points per game.
Clearly he is better than Wall. But Wall's teamates are just terrible at playing team basketball. I think you put any point guard in the league on that team and make them play large minutes with those knuckleheads and that player will end up with a terrible plus minus. The starters are just totally overmatched against other NBA starters.
Wall is just not a polished player like Irving is at this time. Irving has the type of polish that translates into wins if he is surrounded by decent players. Wall will get there. Once Wall has the right players around him though, he will surpass Irving. Wall one day will be a top 3 PG in the league.
A HUGE factor in Wall's game also is the coaching philosphy and style of play. Wall is about the closest guy I can think of to Magic when it comes to getting the rebound and starting/finishing a fast break. That is about the best aspect of his game...but of course, you need good players around you. Magic had options, Worthy and Scott on the wings waiting to coast in for a jam or spot up for an open 3. Think if Wall had two players like that today, like Gay and Mayo.
As a Cavs fan I get the pleasure of watching Kyrie Irving play each and every night. The kid is absolutely phenominal with his handle and vision on the court. He has the ability to see a driving or passing lane ahead of most people which speaks to his high basketball IQ. Although he doesn't possess the speed that a Wall/Westbrook have he can dribble around anyone based on skill and pull up for a mid range jumper, finish at the rim with both hands or distribute. His assist totals are greatly diminished because of the Cavs overall lack of athleticism, leaping ability or any other player on the floor with an above average shot. Irving is one of the most consistent shooters I have seen from the pg spot in a long time. As far as active players only Steve Nash and CP3 are even close. I realize it is a small sample size so far, but I am not just going by statistics. He is always in control and balanced with a great release which strongly goes against prolonged shooting slumps.
Wall has been very impressive this year from what I have seen. He still has no range on his shot but has increased his scoring numbers without taking more shots (he has actually taken less). Coming out of college I did not consider him a very good shooter and he has done nothing to prove otherwise to this point. Even if he improves is FG % and 3 point % by 4-5 percentage points, he still will not be a big shot maker at this level. He is a good rebounder for a point guard and a very good distributor. His passing ability may be the only aspect of his game that is ahead of Irving's at this point and may remain ahead for his career.
It is very early to tell for both guys in terms of maximum potential, but Irving is 2 1/2 years younger than Wall and is already a much more efficient player in the NBA. Irving needs to greatly improve his on the ball defense and reduce his turnovers, but those are the only weaknesses in his game. Can someone who watches Wall a fair amount speak to his defense?
Wall is a decent player, but may never make an all-star team. Irving is more polished? Of course he is and he always will be. How many game winning shots has Wall made in his career? Kyrie has 2 already. Irving is 19, Wall is 21. Surround Wall with better players? Last time I checked, neither team has any all-stars on it. Surround either player with 1 all-star scorer and 1 borderline all-star and they would both be very, very good players. In that scenario though, Irving is still better no matter how you slice it.
How is Wall that much older than Irving? Was he held back? Irving is a rookie and Wall a sophomore, so I'm not sure how they are that much more than a year apart.
That is my fault. I think I need a math degree or something - he is almost exactly 1 1/2 years older.
"His passing ability may be the only aspect of his game that is ahead of Irving's at this point"
let me tell you that wall isn't by far the greater passer. you can make a case irving is at least on par...
assist% (the amount of asts attributed to him while he's on the floor)
TO% (the amount of TOs per every 100 plays while your in the floor)
wall asts% it at 35%, (compared to lasts year's 36%) - his TO% is at 20%, compared to last year 18.6%
kyrie irving asts% at 34% - his TO % at 16%
"The usage stats tells the % a player has the ball while he is on the court, so since Wall plays more minutes then Young and Crawford they are going to have a higher %. Plus they're stats are inflated by how much they iso with the ball".
i don't get this logic...
plus, wall shouldn't allow jordan crawford to handle the more than him, it's like he's taking a backseat to them almost.
Wall is better. Irving has a better team and foundation. When Wall improves his already decent jumper there is no question about it.
jammin lemon... i think we irving fans already explained enough, facts and everything. wall will NEVER be more than a gerald wallace/ josh smith 3 point shooter. wall is easier to defend than irving already. pretty much no facts back up your argument.
time will proove you wrong
lol at you saying "wall is better".... "when wall improves his jumpshot"