Gordon Haywards Decision
Gordon Hayward will be taking his talents to.....
He does NOT look like a basketball player
Don't let looks deceive you...
Yup I said it!!! All hate...
You have every right to have doubt... He had a so-so rookie season. Had some very good games (outplayed Kobe during one game), but during the end of the season.
He'll prove you wrong though. He's going to be a good player. All he really needs is strength and to be more aggressive. He's better than what people realize.
"He does NOT look like a basketball player"
So? I look like I should be on the Metro PCS comercial, or the guy that helps you with your computer problems, but yet I will pack your sh!t all day long.
What are you trying to say? Computers professional or sh!t packer? Either way I guess it's your own business just seemed a bit strange.
aamir, that sounded really odd bro. sincerely have NO idea what you are trying to tell us.
Not personally a Hayward fan. Looks sometimes do have drawbacks. Not a terrible player, just don't think he's what everyone expects. Perhaps a slightly better(or worse) Mike Miller. Solid, unspectacular player.
i dont want my sh1t packed by aamir...
This guy has personality, i wish more players would have this sort of openess and charisma. I feel like players don't always be themselves on camera (eg Kobe), but hey i don't blame them especially with the undue hate they may recieve, although ,it is nice to see something like this once in awhile.
"but yet I will pack your sh!t all day long."
Coming from the guy that was excited to make his JV team?
Looks like I'm not the only one with doubts on Gordon Hayward. I hope he succeeds because he seems like a good kid, but I just don't see it in him. He was a reach only because Butler made it to the championship game and almost beat Duke but I don't see how he'll become a better pro than even Kyle Singler.
Shots fired by the BASED one...Aamir..we await your reply.
I think Hayward is living up to expectations. Utah reached for him, yes, but saddly that is to be expected due to their overwhelmingly white fan base. If he becomes a legit starter then he will justify going 8th in the draft. He certainly seems to be heading in that direction based on the second half of the year. Not saying he is heading toward being an All Star, but he seems to have a lot of tools, mediocre tools, but he seems to be able to do a little bit of everything, at least on the offensive end.
But I don't disagree that Singler could easily end up being just as good as a complimentary role player.
Kyle Singler isn't better than Gordon Hayward at any aspect of basketball except maybe rebounding, and he's a worse athlete. He's taller, but I don't think Singler has anything on Hayward in the pros.
What the hell is that?
What does a basketball player look like? Because, over the last two weeks our only example has looked like this guy:
Singler isn't ecpected to be Star /team svior like hayward is. That's where he has the advantage over Hayward in the pro's. Singler will be expected to hustle, re3bound and hit open shots. Hayward is gonna to be a letdown if he's not an all-star(which i don't see). I personally see little difference between Hayward and Chandler Parsons other than rounds picked and expectations that will be placed on each.
BTW, @ Entropy, how do you get that Kobe doesn't act like himself in interviews and such. He's always himself. He talks ish, cusses, cracks up , and acts about as genuine as you can get. HATER?
Dang it MagikKnick why did you have to repost TCs create a model "Onyx Ibaka"?
I think that if he becomes Mike Miller, than that is pretty good for the 9th pick in the draft. The averaged 9th pick is a worse player than Miller, and I think Hayward could easily be better than Miller. Hayward was an excellent fit for SG for Utah, as he can handle the ball as well as move without the ball. He was the right player for them to pick. Paul George would have been a good pick as well, but personally I would have picked Hayward too if I were Utah.
"Singler isn't ecpected to be Star /team svior like hayward is."
Who really expected/expects Hayward to be a team Savior?
Most Utah fans do. Look at NoMoney for instance, he thinks Hayward in going to be a 17,5,5 guy while shooting 50/40/90 and making all-star games. Maybe savior was a bit far fetched, but even all-star is too much for me. Expectations are everything in this league my friend. Singler will be expected to be a role player whereas Hayward is going to be expected to be an all-star(at least). Like you said, Hayward would be best served in a 3rd or 4th option type of role, but that isn't what is expected out of Utah fans. 12,5,4 are realistic numbers IMO. Very similar to the player Luke Walton was in 06-07. Best scenario is Mike Miller and even he never everaged 5 assists, and he's an even better passer than Hayward. Just seems to me that Utah fans hold Hayward in far too high regard.
As sad as it is to say, it's mostly because he's white and has talent. The great white hope. A city full of mormons are always holding out hope. This is the same place that gave AK47 a 17 million dollar deal.
Please don't speak for me.
I said that 17/5/5 and 50/40/90 was his CEILING and he had a high probability of reaching his ceiling. The question in the topic was "Does Gordon Hayward have all-star potential?", to which I answered in the affirmative. I also later agreed with JNixon-Iggy9 that those numbers would only make an all-star team on a highly successful team (like Manu with the Spurs this season).
You display absolutely no intelligence in your argument against Hayward. "He's white and overrated." Why don't you explain how exactly it's so unlikely for Hayward to reach his ceiling. Is it because of a poor work-ethic? Poor basketball IQ? Or is it just that Utah is a horrible system, that doesn't fit his style at all? Why is 50/40/90 unrealistic after he shot 48.5/47.3/71.1 in his rookie season? Is it because his shot-mechanics are so ugly? Poor shot-selection? Why don't you break that down for me?
He has confidence issues, which I have always stated is the biggest fault that stands between him and long-term success. Other than that, he has all of the intangibles needed to be a very good player, but I never once stated he was a future superstar or the savior of the team.
And the idea Singler will be a better player (or even more valuable) seems like a foolish implication to make right now. If any of you would care to expand on that using big-boy arguments, I'm all ears. Otherwise, please refrain from taking what I said over a month ago out of context and using it in a debate against somebody else.
So his 17 minutes of action and one 3 attempt showed the kind of numbers he's going to get when he becomes the focus of defenses. Not to mention in college he went from shooting 48/45/80 to 46/29/82.
He doesn't have the shot-creating ability to get 17 a night in the NBA. Not with the defensive attention he's going to be gaining. His defense is overrated(one good game against Bean).
Those numbers show a bad defender. And again, i also stated that he's not natural passer creator that Miller is, and even his best year was less than 5 assists.
Gino was also far craftier, and much better with the ball in his hands.
Hayward has great work ethic true, high IQ, true, but he doesn't have the skills to be a 17,5,5 player on a winner. If he is contributing that much to a team, that team is more than likely a losing team. The best thing Gordon can hope for IMO, is a 6MOY award. All-Star, though, no way.
BTW, I never said he was overrated because he was white, I said he was held in higher regards by UTAH fans because he's white. So please NoMoney, don't speak for me friend.
"BTW, I never said he was overrated because he was white, I said he was held in higher regards by UTAH fans because he's white."
I never said you said he was overrated because he was white.
He actually is a skilled ball-handler, and one who projects to be eventually capable of getting off 10 shots a game. Besides, his ability to move without the ball has always been a strength, and players who understand how to move without the ball see success in Utah (see Matt Harpring and Andrei Kirilenko who scored around 16-17 points per game when they were 2nd/3rd options because of their ability to move without the ball).
His defensive numbers were average because it was his rookie season. Near the end of the season (when he picked up some confidence) he showed the true potential he had on this side of the floor. Stats ALWAYS lie. That's why scouts exist in the first place. Somebody who studies players will tell you that Hayward is a tough defender that puts a great deal of effort into this side of the court. He'll get better here as he becomes more experienced. And just for fun, I'll inform you that Hayward only allowed his opponent to score .591 points per possession in his sophomore year at school, which is outstanding even for a mid-major conference.
I honestly don't care whether you like him or not, and I'll admit that I've been wrong about players before. You only drew my attention because you decided for some reason to call me out in an argument that had nothing to do with me.
I wasn't really calling you out, not intentionally anyways. I actually was using you as a reference because you were the most respectable poster arguing in Haywards favor in the thread I was referring to. BUT, I very much disagree that energy and effort pay off defensively. Sasha Vujacic is a tough nosed defender who gives 100% effort time and time again doesn't mean he doesn't get burned by elite offensive players(Kobe had a bad game against Hayward but Kobe was injured and has lost a great deal of ballhandling ability due tyo his broken fingers). Hayward is a fine player, I just found that 50/40/90 and 17,5,5 were rather bold statements that backed my argument that Hayward has FAR higher expectations than Singler.
I do apologize if it seemed as though I was coming at you negatively
@Tol23, So you expect a 14 year old to play varsity against 17 and 18 year giants?
My bad. I tend to get a little overly sensitive.
I guess there's nothing left to do but wait and see about Hayward.
Hayward has twice Singler's athleticism and is already an elite shooter, something Singler will never be. Lets refrain from comparing those two again for the saake of them both being being white with the same haricut, lol.
It's all good with us NoMoney, I aint trying to get turned into cyclo by your black magic :p
"So you expect a 14 year old to play varsity against 17 and 18 year giants?"
Then why are you acting as if you're ridiculously good by saying you would "pack his sh!t all day long"?
I think I speak for everyone when I say, when I was 14-16, I was playing at rec centers and parks with guys that were 20-30 years old. I'm sure everybody else has as well.
No need to be cocky about basketball on these forums, he may indeed be better than you and you don't even know it.
Tol23, I was just making a point, cause somone said Hayward doesn't look like a basketball player, so I put myself as an example, not trying to be cocky or anything, but just trying to make a point.
Yeah,.. I mostly played rec's and street corurts with grown ups. I didnt play on my highschool team. I got kicked off for kicking the ball across court after a bs call when i was a freshman. but i played in every other possible league. Playing with grown ups makes u more physiacal and willing to bang.
But, TOL23, aamir wasn't being cocky i donj't think. Just using himself as an example of not always judging a book by its cover.
There's been a Pro-Am league going on here in Indianapolis at IUPUI for most of the summer and Hayward has looked VERY good. Other than maybe Eric Gordon and George Hill, I don't think anybody else has looked better.
His body has gotten stronger... He still has a ways to go, but you can easily see he's bulked up in the chest area. He looks more confident handling the ball. He barely misses when he's open. His one or two dribble pull up jumper looks automatic. He's really worked on the pumpfake and then either pulling up off of the dribble or using the hesitation to get to the rack. He had one of the best chasedown blocks of the league... Very sneaky athlete. He's changed a lot... It's mostly his confidence and swagger. He's walking, playing and talking like an NBA player now.
And the good thing about him is he plays the game the right ways. He doesn't have any special tools, but I think he will develop into an all-around player. He should start for the Jazz this season.
We'll see if that swag and confidence sticks when he gets locked down by LBJ,Iggy, or a Ron Artest. VERY glad to hear that he's bulked up and gaining sum confidence, but pro-am's are hardly the NBA, even if they do have NBA talent. Ask Josh selby,Brandon Jennings, and Nick Young.
Do you really dislike him THAT much? I mean, you're stacking Hayward (a second year pro) up against elite defenders of the NBA in LBJ, Iggy and Ron Artest... I mean, they lock up most players they defend.
And during Pro-Am leagues, I don't pay attention to stats and flashy play. The defense (help defense, rotations, etc) isn't all that. I pay attention to how bigger/stronger a player has gotten. I pay attention to the weaknesses that player used to have and see if he's improved them.
I've always thought Hayward needed to get bigger/stronger and play with more swagger/confidence. I've seen that from him this summer. He'll come back a much better player this season.
^ that's obviously too in depth for him to comprehend, he can only muster up a few "white guy" comparisons of which he has seen play on tnt over the last couple of seasons, to try and sound knowledgable. I've said this before in a previous post, that i don't think it is unrealistic for him to make a few All-star games in his career maybe 1 or 2, however that is hardly being a savior of a franchise. Of the 4 young guys on the Jazz roster moving forward i think he is the most sure fire thing to be a success, sure the 3 other guys have more upside, however his rapid improvement from the beggining to the end of the season, plus the overall confidence the jazz coaching staff has in this kid is undeniable. Granted his ceiling as mentioned, and if he where to put up 17,5,5 to make an all-star game, he would have to be on a winning team is probably correct, however that is hardly a stretch for a team who could potentially have after this season a total of 6 lottery picks over the last 3 seasons. Thats an accelerated rebuild at its highest, and if only 2-3 of these kids pan out to be anything this team will be a threat going forward, and that's not even taking into account the solid veteran players they have in play already. Also @iguapops trust me all utah fans aren't mormon, and trust me we don't hold players in "higher regard" because they are white, we are not as simple minded as yourself.
Yes thats too in depth for me to understand he's saying Hayward is bigger /stronger and that hes playing with better confidence. I'm an idiot.
I never threw out a bunch of "white guy" references. Simply said he played like Mike Miller and could have a slightly better or slightly worse career than he(which is no slight seeing as though Miller won 6th MOY). You guys are the ones taking that negatively.
All I'm trying to convey is that for all that confidence he has, is he going to be able to keep it from being shaken once he has a few bad games against the elite sf's of the L(which BTW are over half the teams). It's as simple as that, I know that my confidence can get sdshaken if I go out and have quite a few bad games.
@Indiana, I understand what you're trying to tell me, I just don't see how having swagger in a pro-am setting is going to really help out all that much. It's not like he's out there going against real tough talent. Again, see guys like Josh Selby. It's good he's worked on his body, it will help him attacking and staying balanced while defendeing, but I just don't like to take swagger from a pro-am and compare it to what a person will have in the NBA.
@chevilicious, You are clearly a Jazz fan, and I meant nothing by the white comment, simply stating fact. 80.4% of Utah is made up of White americans. Of that 80.4%, 41.6% are mormon, and it's a state founded by mormon. And yes, BTW, you guys do hold certain people in higher regard, see Jimmer Fredette.
Raul Lopez,Curtis Borchardt,Sasha Pavlovic,Kris Humphries,Kosta Koufas,Gordon Hayward. So since 2000, Utah has draft a white guy with their first round pick in 6 of 11 drafts. And you're going to tell me that the Jazz don't hold certain players in higher regards.
The Utah chapter of the D.A.R.E. program, Nike, and NoYen have teamed up to create..
Coming to a GAP store near you
I don't see why he can't take swagger from his hard work over the summer and play during summer league when he's competing against NBA caliber players... Eric Gordon isn't a chump defender. Paul George isn't a chump defender. James Posey isn't a chump defender. There are a lot of good players here that can defend and who have decent size. Not elite NBA level defenders and there isn't great help defense, but still...
You get better over the summer... With practice, etc... That brings confidence/swagger and I see Gordon getting that.
I see where you're coming from and agree that it is helping him and will be there once the season starts, you just aren't seeing my side of the argument. half way through the season, he begins to hhit a wall, starts having terrible shooting operformances, starts being zoned in by the D a little tighter. I just question whether his confidence/swag can stand through that knbowing that confidence has always been an issue with him.
I remember Vujacic being a guy who came in bigger with swag , talking like a real NBA player after the 07-08 season and after some bad games, the confidence began to waiver. that's all I'm questioning about Hayward. Not whether he will be good or not, because if the confidence remains, he'll be a solid player no doubt. Just, think that NBA defenses can kill confidence easy. See Vujacic, Rudy Fernandez, Pau Gasol, Trevor Ariza, LBJ, etc etc.