[delfamParticipant]

Thoughts on Hayward? When will he come out? How will he do in the NBA? He was really impressive today but he was playing against a PF he could explore. In the NBA he’ll probably play against athletic 3’s. He’s an interesting prospect but it’s hard to tell his success at the next level.

[JNixonParticipant]

He reminds me of the Golden State Warriors Mike Dunleavy Jr. The one that was a below average player. He’s skilled, but he’s also slow and not an athlete, especially for a SF.

[Johnny KilroyParticipant]

he was going to play tennis in college, before he hit his growth spurt.

[knicksfan7Participant]

Gordon Hayward also raps. http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Butler-s-Gordon-Hayward-aka-G-Time-is-Too-Big?urn=ncaab,230580

LOL G-Time hahahaha.

[QUINCEY]

man i swore mike would be very very good. wasnt real slow in college and was a ok athlete. like bird… whats funny is even with those faults he still put up 20ppg in his last healthy season

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

The rumors are that his family has started interviewing potential agents, but I really think he’s coming back to college… Unless he gets a promise to get picked in the lottery, which I doubt will happen.

I’m high on Hayward. I feel he has a lot of room to grow and get better. He’s only 19 and doesn’t even realize how good he can be. As it was mentioned above, he had a very late growth spurt. He’s still growing into his body and his game. He came into college expecting to get a free education, not make it to the NBA. Imagine what of a summer of preparing for the NBA will do for his game.

He’s not the greatest athlete, but he’s deceptive. He has very good body control for somebody his size. He’s an aggressive rebounder, especially on the offensive glass. He doesn’t have advanced ball handling, but he can definitely handle the ball well for someone his size. Creating his own shot off the dribble needs to be improved.

His percentages are down this season, but he’s a very good three-point shooter. He’ll be very good in the drive and kick game in the NBA. He needs to be more aggressive offensively, which I think he will be next season. I think he’ll be better than Mike Dunleavy Jr. A better/more aggressive rebounder and also just a better competitor.

[knicksfan7Participant]

His percentages only went down because he was keyed on. He stays at college next year he will have better percentages than his sophomore year.

[Michael.S.Participant]

I agree with tezo, who say the move he hit that big man with today…he had him shaking…and he stepped back for the 3….He is not a bad athlete come on…He is faster than 50 percent of the SF’s in the NBA(turkoglu, Gallinari, Granger, Pierce. Artest, Howard just to name a few) and he can get up better than a few of them also…But don’t forget that he is also 6-9, so any “lack of athleticism” would be made up for

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Not only is he 6′ 9″… He has very long arms. I wouldn’t be surprised if he at least had a 6′ 11″ wingspan.

If you look at his frame, you’ll notice that he’s not skinny either. He’s about 210 lbs now and should able to add 10-15 more lbs on his frame.

[knicksfan7Participant]

Tezo, I love Hayward, but he looks like he is freaken 12. Someone needs to tell you have to look like at least 14 in order to play in the NBA, lol. I think he stays another year at Butler he will be a top 20 draft pick in the 2011 draft.

[JNixonParticipant]

I hear he’s interviewing agents. I think he’ll declare, especially with them making the Final 4.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

The chances of him declaring increase more and more as Butler continues to advance. I really think he can increase his stock into the teens if he can put together two more great games.

[midwestbbscoutParticipant]

that step back crossover 3 today was a big time move…..and he should go now, his stock will NEVER be as high as it is after this season…..he’d be mental not to leave now…..and if the league tries to enforce the “Over 12 rule”…..he should take them to court like Maurice Clarrett….lmao at that rule….

[knicksfan7Participant]

I don’t see Hayward leaving he seems like he’s a smart kid who will make the right choice, and with everyone at Butler returning and he improves his game tenfold I think he’ll be just fine, and prob get drafted even higher if he enters after his junior year.

[midwestbbscoutParticipant]

he’s a smart kid so if he’s smart he will leave after this season….

[gregoden08Participant]

lol

[Aran SmithKeymaster]

Definitely agree he HAS to go now…  He looks like one of the pixar animated kids. (along with the West Virginia mascot chick…) Mike Dunleavy with less fluidity and shooting. But his clutch play is definitely helping his stock big time!

[knicksfan7Participant]

Aran, Pixar animated kids, I like that one. Though even if he decides to not go, I don’t think unless Butler has a poor season next season he could stay and still have his draft stock in good standing.

[Aran SmithKeymaster]

He could definitely become more NBA ready by returning. But hard to imagine his stock improving a whole lot. Odds are his stock would depreciate, not appreciate next season, considering his tourney play.

[Mr.Knick 32Participant]

Aran- Where is his stock right now?

Top 15?

[Aran SmithKeymaster]

Havent talked with anyone yet but I would say somewhere in the 15-25 range.

[jerb2011Participant]

He is not as aggressive as he needs to be. He is frail and doesn’t demand the ball like he needs to. He is arguably the best player on Butler’s roster but is too nice on the court.

[jerb2011Participant]

He is not as aggressive as he needs to be. He is frail and doesn’t demand the ball like he needs to. He is arguably the best player on Butler’s roster but is too nice on the court.

[HROT88Participant]

He has more wiggle than Dunleavey, his shot will be fine in the long run.

[canesboy6Participant]

Who in the world buys 6’9 for him? Come on. Thats an inflated roster listing. He would measure out at about 6’7 barefoot. Saw a good shot of him and Curtis Kelly next to each other, both standing straight up, and kelly had 2 inches on him.

I like him, but don’t really see him doing anything other than shooting 3’s at the next level. He does alot of cutesy crap that won’t fly in the league. He doesn’t drive well, he always gets forced baseline and has to make a goofy kickout. I see him more as a college player, who in the league will have to be a 3 point shooter.

[canesboy6Participant]

Who in the world buys 6’9 for him? Come on. Thats an inflated roster listing. He would measure out at about 6’7 barefoot. Saw a good shot of him and Curtis Kelly next to each other, both standing straight up, and kelly had 2 inches on him.

I like him, but don’t really see him doing anything other than shooting 3’s at the next level. He does alot of cutesy crap that won’t fly in the league. He doesn’t drive well, he always gets forced baseline and has to make a goofy kickout. I see him more as a college player, who in the league will have to be a 3 point shooter.

[midwestbbscoutParticipant]

by far the best player on his team…..

[billykParticipant]

I actually like SHelvin Mack as a better NBA prospect that Hayward… Mack is a solid athlete, good defender, and has a nice 3pt stroke… I think he could be a sleeper I see a little Chancey Billups in him….

[HROT88Participant]

billyk I have been thinking those same thoughts

[midwestbbscoutParticipant]

Gordon is smooth man….playin in Indiana gives him a little advantage you know how it goes…..

[Lodzio20Participant]

he’s nothing special…another good college player but not NBA

[B-ball fanParticipant]

If he becomes more aggressive taking it to the hoop, he could become a ggod player. Not sure about his NBA potential, but he is very skilled and has great touch on his shot.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

He is going to have problems becoming anything but a catch-and shoot wing on the next level because he is neither quick nor strong. I think he is going to be a lot like Matt Carroll. On a good team, he will wear a suit on most nights. On a mediocre to bad team, he is unselfish enough that a coach might overlook the fact he can’t guard anyone and have the kind of seasons Carroll did in Charlotte that got him that awful deal.

[PlatypusParticipant]

i agree

Max- peja stojakovic

Push- mike dunleavy

Worst- matt carrol

[JNixonParticipant]

Shelvin Mack isn’t a better prospect than Hayward. He isn’t a true PG and he won’t be a legit scoring threat in the NBA..He’s be like a less explosive Anthony Carter.

[rtbtParticipant]

I think Tezo83 nailed it on the assessment of G. Hayward. I also believe the key word is “potential” because he isn’t ready for the NBA. He would be killed if he was there now, but if he gives his body time to develop and get stronger, he could become a very good player. And please, let’s forget about the Mike Dunleavy comparison who’ s been a huge disappointment everywhere he’s played.

One thing I noticed and liked about Gordon Hayward versus Butler was the fact that he was the team’s leading rebounder. I don’t know if that was a one game thing or if he consistently hits the boards. I happen to love guys who rebound.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I don’t see the Matt Carroll comparisons. I watched Carroll at Notre Dame and he was only a shooter for four years. Nothing else. He didn’t even compete on D, nor rebound. Not even an average ball handler. That’s why he went undrafted.

Not to mention… Hayward is two-three inches taller. Hayward won’t be a great defender in the NBA, but I don’t see anything different in Turk, Gallo, Dunleavy, etc. Teams will learn to live with it.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

You have to love his motor, especially on the offensive boards. I’ve been to many Butler games this season, and that’s been the case every game. He’s tougher than people give him credit for.

Like I said… He’s not the greatest defender, but he competes at that end. I’ve seen him defend in the post and out on the perimeter. I didn’t see anything jump out at me that said, “Damn… He’s going to get absolutely murdered in the NBA.”

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

Carroll was an average ball handler and that is why he was running the point forward for Charlotte? Or was the fact that he didn’t handle at Notre Dame because they had Chris Thomas?

How does Hayward actually use that supposed two to three inches to his advantage? The only time he gets into the paint against teams with athleticism is on a back door cut or when someone doesn’t put a body on him when a shot goes up. He won’t be able to create off the dribble like Turkoglu or Dunleavy. Pop in the tape of when they played LSU, UCLA, Georgetown, UTEP, heck yesterday. Those supposed point guard handles he showed off in the Horizon League don’t hold up against better college athletes much less any two or three in the NBA.

[JNixonParticipant]

Hayward got nothing off the dribble yesterday against Dominique Sutton, only Curtis Kelly, who is a 6’10” PF/C. That crossover he made between the legs was on Kelly, and would not have happened against ANY NBA-level SF.

Dominique Sutton is an NBA-caliber defender and Hayward only scored on him off of a backdoor alley-oop. Did anyone see how many times Hayward got his shot blocked at the rim yestreday? That was against a team with NBA caliber size and length down low.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I’ll take that back about Carroll’s ball handling. He’s actually a pretty good ball handler. You’re right, he didn’t handle the ball a lot at Notre Dame because that ball was in CT’s hands most of the time. He’s improved here in the NBA, especially his ability to shoot off of the dribble.

Hayward uses those two or three inches to his advantage by crashing the offensive glass. I don’t think Carroll has ever averaged eight rebounds in his life.

I don’t think anybody has said he has “point guard” handles, just that he handles it very well for his size. He doesn’t have any advanced ball handling moves, but he’s shown the ability to put the ball on the floor against all competition.

I just disagree with y’all. He won’t be a star in the NBA, but I think he has a chance to be a very good role player. He can get better. He’s only 19-20 years old.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

And how many skinny supposedly 6’8 players make a living off crashing the offensive glass in the NBA? The one team where I am consistently surprised by the number of skinny guys getting offensive boards is Milwaukee. Ilyasova, Mbah a Moute, Delfino, and Warrick before he got dealt all crash with regularity and have had success. I don’t think that really is something that will make a big difference in whether he makes it or not in the league. If he makes it as rotation guy in the NBA, it will be because he shoots as well from distance as he did last summer in the U19 World Championships and is smart enough to not turn it over when being guarded by superior athletes.

I do feel that he will probably go unspeakably high at this point. Despite there being articles with scouts claiming the contrary, the tournament does have a big impact on where players end up going. If I was to put Hayward, Alfa Aminu, Da’Sean Butler, Kyle Singler, Devin Ebanks, Darington Hobson, Stanley Robinson, Quincy Pondexter, and Damion James into a ranking (I’ll keep out the international prospects for this one) of who is most likely to succeed in the NBA I’m placing Hayward close to the bottom. I think he is a second round value as a player who way too high. If guys like Monroe, Warren, and Davis return for their junior years (heck, even Favors is said to be considering returning for his sophomore year) this draft thins out quickly and the hype he gets from the Final Four could really elevate him.

[rtbtParticipant]

I don’t know if Tezo83 was referring to me when he said, “I didn’t see anything jump out at me that said, “Damn… He’s going to get absolutely murdered in the NBA.”, but I would like to expand on that.

At the age of 19, I don’t think G Hayward has the strength, experience, or confidence to do well in the NBA. In light of that, I believe he would probably turn into a another failure, like Mike Dunleavy, if he goes next year.

But I did say he has a lot of potential and when he gets stronger, is more experienced, and develops more confidence, I think he can become a very good player in the NBA. IMHO, if he stays in college one more year, he will turn out to be much better than Dunleavy

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

No I was referring to BothTeamsPlayedHard about Hayward’s defense.

He’s only 19… Had a late growth spurt and he’s a late bloomer. He’s probably not even done growing. He’s not a finished product at all and is going to get better.

[QUINCEY]

imma have to really pay attention to him

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

He’s going to get better. He’s only 19 years old and isn’t close to being a finished product. It’s not like he’ll be skinny forever. He’s at least 200 lbs right now and has the frame to add more weight… At least 15-20 more pounds. I think he’s a legit 6′ 8″ with shoes and has good length.

He needs another summer to improve and another year of college basketball, but I think he has a chance to bring more to a NBA team than just his shooting. We’re not talking about Steve Novak here. Hayward is more versatile than that, despite his athletic limitations. His shooting is what will earn him his living, but I think he has the potential to be able to do other things. He has a better skill set than Devin Ebanks right now. He’ll have to improve, but it’s not out of the question he’ll be able to put the ball on the floor against more athletic players in the NBA. I also think that he’ll be a decent rebounder from the small forward position.

[midwestbbscoutParticipant]

just crashing the boards….did you see that step back 3???? that was a big time NBA move….

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Naw… We’re not supposed to count that move since it wasn’t against Kansas State’s best defender lol.

[JNixonParticipant]

Hayward got nothing off the dribble yesterday against Dominique Sutton, only Curtis Kelly, who is a 6’10” PF/C. That crossover he made between the legs was on Kelly, and would not have happened against ANY NBA-level SF. Sutton may not be talented offensively, but he’s an NBA-level defender. Hayward got nothing on him other than the backdoor alley-oop off on the double pick. Every time he tried to go off the dribble he had to pull it back out. He’s not going to be a threat creating for himself in the NBA because of his lack of quickness and athleticism.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I disagree. He doesn’t have enough quickness and athleticism alone to beat NBA caliber athletes off of the dribble, but he has enough of it to get by them if he picks and chooses his spots correctly. He’s a smart player with a very nice skill set and IQ. He needs another summer of improvement and year of seasoning, but it’s not out of the question that he’ll be able to put the ball on the floor in the NBA. It’s not only about going off of the dribble either. He also moves well without the ball.

People said the same thing about Stephen Curry… That he wouldn’t be able to get by the quicker/more athletic guards nor be able to turn the corner. Well, he’s doing that now because he picks and chooses his spots… And he just plays smarter than they do.

[rtbtParticipant]

Tezo, that was a great post. Thank you.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I don’t think he did a very good job versus Kansas State after getting past the first defender off of the dribble. He could’ve pulled up for the short jumper, which he is very capable of making. Instead he took it all the way to the rim and got his shot blocked or altered.

I think these are all things that he’ll learn and improve upon as time goes along. You don’t have to be a great athlete to be successful in the NBA. It helps, but it’s not like it’s a pre-requisite. I think he has a very good skillset and fundamentals that can serve him well in the NBA if he improves upon them.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

How many starting 3s are there on winning teams that you would consider to be anything but a great athlete?

How many are as mediocre athletically with as little bulk as Hayward? I don’t see any. You are trying to cheer lead for a guy who is either going to play on a bad team or at best come off the bench in a lesser role on a good team.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Where did you read that I thought he could be a starter? I’ve said all along that I think he can be a very good role player in the NBA. I’ve never said that he could be a star. I’ve also said that he needs another summer to get better and another season of college basketball.

You keep talking about his bulk like he’s not going to get bigger in the NBA. I don’t understand. He’ll be 20-21 years old when he enters the league. He’s going to get stronger just like any other player who dedicates himself in the weight room. His body won’t even look the same in two or three seasons. You sound like somebody who’s sipping on a dark flavored haterade.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

“I think he’ll be better than Mike Dunleavy Jr.”

Your words. Somehow you want to make the claim that he is a better Mike Dunleavy, project him to go in the teens, and argue against a Matt Carroll comparison despite you didn’t know who Matt Carroll was. Yet, me asking a fair question of your beliefs is “sipping on a dark flavored haterade.” Nice.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I haven’t kept up with Carroll in the NBA, but I did in college and he didn’t handle the ball at Notre Dame. Not nearly as much as Hayward does for Butler. Of course there was the Chris Thomas factor, which I gave you credit for bringing up. Still… I thought we were talking about what each player did in college and then you bring up what Carroll did in Charlotte almost 3-4 seasons after his college career ended.

I don’t think it’s out of the question that he can eventually end up being better than Dunleavy. Dunleavy has been in Indiana for three seasons and I haven’t been all that impressed. He’s had what? One above average season as a starter? I don’t think he ever should’ve been a starter and he’s not starting now even though he’s been healthy.

My problem is that you act like he’s a college senior and already a finished product. Like he can’t or won’t get better. I disagree with you.

[Author]

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