[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Why isn’t he starting for the Utah Jazz? He’s clearly the best wing on their team. Raja Bell is starting over him right now, which doesn’t make sense to me. Hayward is on the floor during crunch time, but it’s still confusing why he isn’t starting. I’ve been a Hayward supporter since the beginning and said he’d be a first round pick, potentially having a chance to land in the lottery, before anybody else on this site. It’s giving me great joy right now to see him doing all of the things I thought he would. A lot of people said he wouldn’t be able to defend on the wing. That he would be a bust. That he was too skinny and couldn’t get bigger.That he didn’t have NBA talent (Sheltwon). Some people (Sheltwon) said Luke Babbitt would be better. BothTeamsPlayedHard said he wasn’t better than Devin Ebanks. I think Hayward is one of the best players from his class and will grow into a very good *two way* NBA player.

Last night versus the Warriors:

[TomShoeParticipant]

Here’s his hollinger report:

+ Athletic wing still figuring out how to translate skills to basketball court.



+ Can jump and finish, but average shooter and ball handler. 



+ Offensive instincts need improvement, especially on pick-and-roll. 



The defining play of Hayward’s rookie season was an action I call the "pick-and-nothing." The Jazz would run a pick-and-roll for Hayward and he would neither turn the corner, nor shoot a jumper, nor hit the roll man. He’d just eat the ball and throw it back out. It’s confounding because he clearly has some skills, but his offensive instincts need to round into shape before he can contribute consistently. 



Yet Hayward did show flashes, with top-of-the-square shot blocks, a couple of dazzling dunks and above-average rebounding numbers. He also shot 47.3 percent on 3s, albeit in just 74 attempts, and he can handle the ball. Plus, at 6-8 he’s about the biggest 2-guard in the league; one suspects he’ll eventually land at the 3. 



Defensively, Hayward was wayward. Utah gave up 5.17 points per 100 possessions more with him on the court, opponents posted strong PERs against him at both wing positions, and Synergy Stats rated him among the league’s worst defenders. His height and feet indicate he should eventually be pretty good in this area, but last season he sure wasn’t. 



Even with his struggles, his final stats on the season weren’t that bad for a rookie guard, thanks to a strong final month. It’s just a question of developing the aggression and instincts to take advantage of his skills. 

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

[NotHamedHaddadiParticipant]

It’s because the Jazz want more defense in their starting backcourt since Harris couldn’t defend a chair. This is similar to the situation in OKC with James Harden. They start Sefolosha to get more defense in the lineup and have Harden as sixth man who plays in crunch time to get some scoring off the bench. The Jazz are doing the same thing with Hayward and Bell, Hayward is still playing 25-30 minutes a night.

[Anton123Participant]

OKC starts Sefolosha because their bench has got absolutely no scoring without Harden

[AccountCanBeDeletedParticipant]

I haven’t followed the Jazz enough to know why he isn’t starting, as I was under the impression he was. Turns out he has started 37/44 games so far this season so obviously most likely a relatively new thing.

However from what I quickly read I guess the underneath statement is along the lines why he has been put into that sixth man/second unit role.

According to Corbin, Hayward "can be more aggressive offensively and get himself going" by coming off the bench. He’s more of a play-maker with the second unit and "does a good job in that role," Corbin explained.

Source: http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/blogsjazznotes/53738612-62/corbin-start-favors-golden.html.csp

[akhan786Participant]

TBH I was completely wrong about Gordon Hayward. I had no idea he was this athletic either. Besides all of his impressive shows of athleticism, he seems to do all of the little things that coaches love. He hustles, he sets his teammates up, and he is a much better defender than given credit for.

I’m sure he is a lot of fun to play with.

[lisergxParticipant]

 They need to give the reigns of the team to Hayward, Favors, Kanter and Burks.  Too much young talent to be wasted, I see them becoming the next OKC Thunder.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

@JohnDoe

 

Good info. I guess I can see where Corbin is coming from. I have noticed that Hayward has been more aggressive since coming off of the bench.

 

My thought process was that the Jazz probably aren’t going to make the playoffs. I didn’t understand why Raja Bell, who’s been injured and not playing all that well anyway, is starting over two lottery picks in Hayward and Burks.

 

 

[lisergxParticipant]

 The Jazz games I have seen he is their best passer, he needs to be more agressive on the offensive end, right now he is like Mike Miller at his prime in Memphis.  If he continues to grow he could be a deadly threat.

[jazzfan1Participant]

It’s not because G-time is a bad defender at all. He’s pretty good, much better than you would think.

It’s with the lineup the Jazz are playing to start the game. Hayward is the 4th or 5th option when he starts, and struggles to find out where he should be getting shots.

Really, the starting five of the Jazz with Bell, Harris, Howard, Millsap and Jefferson sucks. It’s totally dysfunctional, and Hayward with his passing and unselfish ways doesn’t fit in. It’s no cooincidence that he’s averaging almost 16 PPG coming off the bench with the second team, and only 9 starting. When he’s actually the 2nd or 3rd option, he does well.

I’m a huge Jazz fan, have been for years, and see almost every game. The second unit with Hayward, Favors, Burks and Kanter with Tinsley or Watson is actually a better unit defensively, and when they’re clicking on offense, which is often, they’re simply a better team.

Jefferson is a great inside scorer, but despite improved passing from Jefferson, the Jazz offense stagnates when he’s in there. He sucks as a defender as well. Too bad, because he seems like a great guy.

Hayward is one of those special players who is greater than the sum of his individual talents. He seems to draw the most out of his teammates, and elevates their games when given a chance. Too often he never gets the chance with the first team.

Just a matter of time when Hayward, Burks, Favors and Kanter along with a much needed PG form a very potent NBA lineup. Keep Millsap and another big off the bench with a 3 point shooter….And that’s a contender in 3 years.

 

 

 

 

[Tongue-Out-Like-23Participant]

Corbin is bringing in all of their young players very slowly.  He’s not rushing anything whatsoever, and that’s good.  It helps player’s growth to not be thrown into the pit.  Favors, Hayward, Kanter, and Burks will all slowly improve and eventually become starters and make a pretty good team.

[sheltwon3Participant]

Sheltwon that was mentioned said he would be a solid role player.  He is coming off the bench and doing well.  I seem to be right considering the reality of the situation versus a fans opinion(Indiana).  I only exagerated that other stuff because I was upset about people hyping him up.  I also seemed to be right about Jimmer.  He is also looking to be a role player with his best case scenario being JJ Redick lite.

I have no bias against any of these players but I thought it was highly funny people would have taken Hayward over George who is looking like a steal even though he went lottery.  Dude grew to like 6’10" and can play like 3 position.  He also defends and scores. 

I felt Hayward would be in the shooter off the bench, high IQ, little mistake group and that has proved to be true.  His upside is limited and his defense even with his effort is not starter material.  There are other role players that have had better games than Hayward so this is nothing new.  He is a shooter and if a shooter get hot when they are not the main threat, thew will put up numbers.  Gary Forbes just put up 20 points and shot amazing but dude will not do that often.  Does that make Forbes a starter.  Corey Brewer has had a couple of games where he put up tons of points as a starter and bench player but he is not a full time starter on a good team right now.  Korver when he gets hot can put up 20 and 30 easy but as you can see he is on the bench a lot. 

 

I still think he got drafted too high and would have been better going in the late 20’s and I stand by that and there is nothing he has done that will make me change that.  I never said he was a bust or a least I dont think I did.  I said he was going to be a role player. I know in time when he continue to play off the bench and fans will wonder why, I will be proven right.

[sheltwon3Participant]

Also I know that he has started a lot of the game early on but Utah has talent and depth and they are not in the playoffs.  I tend to check the stats of teams I dont follow even if I dont see the games and Hayward has had a lot of subpar games.  People got all hype when he had a few good games but if you compare that to the number of bad and subpar games. Average teams can play a high IQ, low mistake player but good teams need good players starting with role player types like Hayward coming off the bench.

[bebopParticipant]

Hayward wasn’t effective as a starter because the offense runs through Millsap and Jefferson, so instead of having plays for him, he just defers to them all the time.  Coming off the bench with the other young guys (the future), he is killing it.  It’s not a matter of starting or coming off the bench, its a matter of who he is playing with.  He does all the little things that don’t show up in a stat sheet.  He is more aggressive in the second unit, gets everyone involved, and is probably the best overall playmaker on the team.  Also, it should be noted that he is usually the one closing out games.  I’m not saying he is going to be a multiple All Star, but he will be a solid starter who makes his teammates better. I fully expect him, Burks, and Favors to be starting by the end of next season, maybe even by the start of next season if we move Jefferson at the draft.

[llperez]

i kinda side with sheltwon on this one. I mentoned hayward on this site during the his freshman season before he had any tounrament heroics are was considered an early entry player. I like him. He is solid and does all the little things and has shown he is a solid athlete. But look at who he is competing with for minutes on the wing in utah. He just doesnt do anything scary. He doesnt shoot it great or create things consistenyl to the point where you know you gotta lock in on him. He just goes out and does a solid all around job. Basically a role player. He’s still young so maybe he proves me wrong and becomes more, but right now i think his upside is nothgin special. I see a rick fox

[aamir543Participant]

Hayward is nice layer that has good size, a decent shot, and has a good feel for the game, but I don’t think he’ll be more than a solid starter, or be anything more than a 12 and 4 guy that gives you spark boost. He has decent handles, but doesn’t have elite hops, he might have a good shot, but not a very consistent one, he is fast but doesn’t have a very explosive first step, and to be successfull in this league he’s going to have develop an elite midrange game, otherwise he’s a career role player. He has good length, but I don’t think he’s a particularly good defender, but he’s good enough not to be a liability and hold his own on that side of the ball. He might have some success working in the high post, and then facing up and making his move but, he doesn’t seem strong enough to bang with the big guys down low.

[Bmore_DCParticipant]

@aamir…

i disagree with you that Hayward will just be a role player, he has all the tools to be an all-star in this league…

the problem with Hayward, to me, is physical…he needs to put on some muscle, you can see he added some this year but if you want to start at the 3 in this league, you gotta be yoked…you have to guard guys like LeBron and Carmelo. being skinny works for Durant but that also because hes almost 7 foot and has an insane jumper…Hayward needs some muscle and a dependable outside shot

[CodySLCParticipant]

 Josh Howard is starting now like everyone said for his defensive presence. Hayward is still getting the same amount of minutes, if not more off the bench. And it could just be me, but it seems like hes playing better as the 6th man. 

On another note, im surprised no one has talked about Derrick Favors. He had a monster game last night with a career high 17rebounds, and a and one dunk to tie the game up at the end of the 4th.

[chevilicousParticipant]

I would just like to point out that i predicted hayward being benched in this thread weeks before it was coming. http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/jazz-fans-ty-corbin-losing-touch-his-young-roster and people saying it was nuts and it wasn’t going to happen. This has nothing to do with Hayward, and everything to do with corbin. Corbin hasn’t shown anything through the course of the season that he’s qualified to be head a coach in the NBA, he has made terrible descision after terrible descision this season. He had 1 Duty  this season and that was to develop his young core and give them playing time, and up until about a week ago, which was no descision of his own mind you, he was forced to do so because of injuries to bell and a sickness to miles. Also Jeffersons mother passed away recently giving Favors playing time in his absence. I see no reason as to why both Hayward and Favors shouldn’t be starting, and logging the majority of the minutes at their respected positions. Also Burks, whom in my opinion, and i beleive several other jazz fans is light years ahead of bell and miles still is seen as the 3rd option at the 2 guard. Also Mbenga is really off base, and you’re referring to the old raja bell of about 4 years ago, you might want to check the dude out now, cause he brings fairly little to both sides of the ball.

[chevilicousParticipant]

Also 2 other things, first being yes he does get more oppurtunities to score in the 2nd unit, however to me that is a cop out, if you can’t find away to get a kid that talented the ball within your offense you have a problem, especially when you have Jefferson jacking the ball up 25 times a night with zero ball movement once it hits the post.

Secondly Hayward is every bit the defender Howard is, but not only that he is also the best distrubutor on your team. If Corbin was really substituting offense for defense, he sure as hell wouldn’t be playing Jefferson and Millsap together when the anchor of their defense Favors is riding the pine getting 20 minutes a night.

[Mr. 19134Participant]

Why do people always try to put players who are 6’8 that play SG at the SF position?  Just because you are tall doesn’t mean you would be better off playing forward.  Hayward has guard skills not forward skills.  Meaning he can shoot, pass, and penetrate better then he can post and rebound.

Honestly I think the Utah Jazz are just dumb.  There is no reason for both Jefferson and Milsap to still be on this team.  The Warriors and Blazers made great moves by deciding to destroy and rebuild at the deadline and yet the Jazz remain in their stubborn ways.  At this point they should of been trying to trade Jefferson for anything.  They need minutes for their youth and cap room more then they need Big Al.  

I’ve been saying since last years draft I think Favors has his most potential as a Center because of the lack of quality and his physical attributes.  Last night he got the start at Center and put up 23 and 16 and looked great playing the pivot.  Kanter also grabbed 13 rebounds in limited minutes.  I thought Kanter was good enough to be drafted 2nd by Minny but at the same time the Jazz should of selected Brandon Knight because he would of had a better opportunity to flourish in that team.  Kanter and Favors has played well together this year however and they have the potential to become a Gasol-Bynum like frontcourt.  

The Jazz just need some playmakers and shooters.  They desparetely need a distributing PG one who can preferably hit an open 3.  Their best bet is to try and get somebody through a trade because this draft doesn’t have anybody who fits that bill.  If they wanted to become really bold they’d offer Favors or Kanter for Jrue Holiday who is a perfect fit in Utah.

It looks like they won’t have Golden States pick who decided to do the smart thing and start fresh next year.  It’ll be interesting to see which way to go in the draft considering they only really need a PG but I’m not sure if Damien Lillard who they are reportdly the highest on is the answer.

And Gordon Hayward is going to be a very good player but I dunno if he’s an All Star.  Rudy Gay isn’t even an All Star.  Hayward reminds me of Nic Batum.

[bebopParticipant]

How is it Corbins number one objective to develop the young kids?  Have you heard the things that KOC says?  Despite having all this young future talent, they are in Win Now mode for some unforseeable reason.  KOC thinks this is a 5 or 6th seed in the West.  Dude is obviously not watching the same team we are.  Jazz FO are the ones who sign Corbin’s paycheck, and they have let him know the number one priority is wins.  In theory, the veterans give him the best chance at that.  I certainly haven’t loved Ty’s rotations every game (they have been very good post trade deadline however), but he has been improving.  He is still practically in his first year as a head coach, and did not have a full training camp.  If he is still making these mistakes next season after the young guys have a summer league and a full training camp, sure, then you can start to blame him.  But as of right now, I think he’s doing the best he can to fufill the orders from above.

 

Also, it’s certainly a possibility that Raja and CJ were getting so many minutes because they were trying to showcase them for a trade.  Howard, CJ, and Raja were all in trade rumors.  We’ll have to see for certain after Raja is back and CJ is done with "vertigo", but I think we’ll continue to see similar minutes for Hayward and Burks.  Favors minutes, unfortunately, will drop until we move one of Sap or Al.

[uknationParticipant]

 Pretty good prospect. Bad defender and doesn’t seem to always remember plays and gets worked in practice according to two of his teammates. Eventually he will. Be a average starter IMO

[sheltwon3Participant]

I think the reason he is not a full time 2 guard is this

Hayward versus  Kobe

Wade

Ellis

Iggy

Joe Johnson (probably now Hinrich who would still eat him up)

and I name a few others

K Martin

Stuckney

In spurts maybe he does a few good things but against most 2 guards he would get torned up.  Not enough Jazz games come on for me to make a legit analysis as far as seeing him play.  I think I saw him play once and he was solid but did not look like a go to guy.

[Michael.S.Participant]

"He is also looking to be a role player with his best case scenario being JJ Redick lite"

Absurd. He is better than Redick right now, and he also is nothing like Redick, except for the fact that they are both white, which I think is the reasoning for your comparison. He is an all around player who is criminally underrated in all aspects of his game and is only getting better. There is no reason why he can’t be a boarderline all star in a couple years.

[llperez]

i agree lemmon, im not sure who’s better between hayward and reddick, but to compare them makes me believe its simply cause they are white. They play nothing alike.

[sheltwon3Participant]

I never compared compared Hayward’s game to Reddick’s game. It was Jimmer and Reddick.

[sheltwon3Participant]

I never compared compared Hayward’s game to Reddick’s game. It was Jimmer and Reddick.

[Michael.S.Participant]

Redick runs off of screens all game for three point attempts, Hayward can get the ball in the halfcourt and create for others, himself and get to the rim, none of which Redick can do. Sheltwon makes these ridiculous comparisons on a regular basis usually white-to-white also.

[SwatLakeCityParticipant]

sheltwon was not comparing Hayward to Reddick. Read the post again, he was comparing Jimmer to Reddick. Here are his exact words:"I also seemed to be right about Jimmer. He is also looking to be a role player with his best case scenario being JJ Redick lite."

Hayward can never seem to get it together. He clearly has talent, but he can’t seem to put it together. Out of all of the Jazz’s youngsters, he clearly seems to be the worst. I’ve seen many games where Kanter, Favors, and Burks do extremely well, and I like a lot of what I’ve seen from all 3 of them, but Hayward I’ve only seen 2 or 3 good games from him this year and have been repeatedly shown that he is not going to be an allstar. If he does become one, he will be a very lite allstar.

If the Jazz do not end up making the playoffs yet still get two draftpicks, (Even though the Warriors seem to be rebuilding with their recent Ellis trade, I still think that they won’t tank. Even their owner, Joe Lacob, has said that the Warriors wouldn’t tank just to get a good draft pick. Besides they’ve been playing without a center for most of the season, Kwame Brown was hurt for most of the year, yet their draft still belongs to the Jazz. They can still play without a center, since Bogut is hurt, and their pick will still end up going to the Jazz) then they should not only go for a PG but also a SF. Like Perry Jones or Moe Harkless.

They can still keep Hayward if this happens but they can use him as a 6th man off the bench along with Millsap. He seems to be better off the bench and it appears, Sheltwon is right. He should have been picked in the mid first round, not the lottery, but even so, he is not a bust. So if Hayward is better off the bench than he is starting the Jazz have two holes in their "young" lineup, PG and SF and those are the positions the Jazz should look to fill in this draft.

 

[sheltwon3Participant]

You need to learn to read sir. I never compared Hayward to Reddick game wise. I compared Jimmer to Reddick. Both are combo guards. Also comparing white players who are not really athletic but can shoot makes sense. If you think that is racist that is on you. I would never compare Reddick to Chris Anderson or David Lee. I would not even compare David Lee to Chris Anderson. Their games are nothing alike. Both Jimmer and Reddick are combo guard who have similar issues a lot of white player throughout the ages have head that can shoot.

I was replying to the other guy but for some reason it made me reply to you undertaker who was actually defending me which I appreciate. This was so long ago I forgot that someone actually read my post and defended me.

[sheltwon3Participant]

You need to learn to read sir. I never compared Hayward to Reddick game wise. I compared Jimmer to Reddick. Both are combo guards. Also comparing white players who are not really athletic but can shoot makes sense. If you think that is racist that is on you. I would never compare Reddick to Chris Anderson or David Lee. I would not even compare David Lee to Chris Anderson. Their games are nothing alike. Both Jimmer and Reddick are combo guard who have similar issues a lot of white player throughout the ages have head that can shoot.

I was replying to the other guy but for some reason it made me reply to you undertaker who was actually defending me which I appreciate. This was so long ago I forgot that someone actually read my post and defended me.

[PulseGlazerParticipant]

The Jazz’s players with the best potential are inside guys.  That means they need shooters and creators around them.  Hayward and Burks fit, but might duplicate a bit much.  They should have a reasonably solid pick to try and improve the 1 or 3, and they have plenty of trade bait to get better wherever they don’t draft. I like the idea of keeping Millisap and moving Jefferson and Harris, though, as Millisap plays better next to the other 2 bigs and is absolutely dominant when the Jazz can limit his minutes.

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

Hayward should be playing shooting guard,if you look up his stats he plays well against the elite sgs in the league…..

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

He doesn’t do a bad job defending Kobe. He also did a solid job on D. Wade earlier this season. He competes hard, stays down on pumpfakes and has decent timing.

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

Yeah,Hayward reminds me alot of Mike Dunleavy..Dunleavy had the talent to be an all star..But he seemed too timid and never developed that take charge attitude…U Conn’s Jeremy Lamb is just like that..Thats why i believe Lamb will be a solid role player,not a superstar like some are suggesting..He doesnt have that attitude like he’s the best player on the court..

[moximusParticipant]

  Mike Dunleavy is talented? for real?

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

 "Yeah,Hayward reminds me alot of Mike Dunleavy..Dunleavy had the talent to be an all star..But he seemed too timid and never developed that take charge attitude.."

Dunleavy can shoot, Hayward can’t. 

"BothTeamsPlayedHard said he wasn’t better than Devin Ebanks."

Neither can shoot from the perimeter consistently, both can create off the dribble, one can defend multiple positions well, the other cannot. One has an opportunity to play. The other is on the Lakers. I don’t get to choose who gets opportunities. The opportunity is separate from ability. If a rookie goes to a contender with their team staying in tact, something has to go wrong for them to see the floor. If a player goes to a bad team, they tend to get a look at some point. I don’t think Kevin Seraphin is any good, but when Washington shipped off Jumpy McStupid he took those minutes and numbers while not helping the team stop anybody. I still think Cole Aldrich is a better player, but he is on a contender. Good teams aren’t going to want to chance it on an unknown, but the fact that one gets run and the other doesn’t mean that Seraphin is better than Aldrich either. 

[butidonthavemoney]

I think Hayward is better than BothTeamsPlayedHard is suggesting, but gave his post a point for referring to JaVale McGee as, "Jumpy McStupid".

[Michael.S.Participant]

Hayward can shoot, Rondo can’t shoot.

[billykParticipant]

Jumpy McStupid Hahahahahaha!!!!!

[Author]

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