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Gobert Underrated?

moochiee
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Gobert Underrated?

Is it just me or is Rudy Gobert severely underrated in a draft like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpHiRGDJjcg

Sure he doesn't have a whole lot of polish, but there is a SO much to like about this kid's potential. Young, athletic, aggressive 7 footer with a 7'9 wingspan, shooting 73% in a top professional French league. I mean honestly, look at some of the guys ranked ahead of him...seems like a top 5 prospect to me...

Anyone else agree?


FastAndFurious
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I mean that's how it's going

I mean that's how it's going to be for international prospects because most of us haven't seen him, don't worry the scouts know about him and that's all that matters, same with Dennis Schroeder(Who im HIGH on), all the scouts basically say he's Rondo WITH a jumper, and people on here still aint rockin with him, it's because they haven't seen him can't blame them but some things are just to obvious to overlook.

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I agree

I really like Schroeder... he has a TON of potential. Even if he doesn't live up to that potential he will be a solid backup.

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I agree. I mean especially in

I agree. I mean especially in weak drafts you seem to see more teams take chance on international prospects, especially in the lotto. For example just look at 2011 - Val - 5, Vesly 6, Bismak - 7. I see no reason why Gobert cannot go mid lotto.

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I don't think he's

I don't think he's underrated. More like unknown/uncertainty, much like international players, their harder to evaluate than US prospects.

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If Portland remains at the

If Portland remains at the number spot i doubt if he gets pass them...Their GM said that this summer, they'll be looking for a center that can protect the rim,rebound and defend..Those are the things Gobert does best...His offensive game is a work in progress and he often commits alot of silly fouls...But he shot over 70% a game in 22 minutes a night...His built and the way he plays is very similar to Tyson Chandler......

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Leonard

Why would the Blazers take Gobert when they already have Leonard... who I think is a superior prospect and farther along in his development.

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Hardly think he is

Hardly think he is underrated. With the very little we know about him, how unknown he is, I would lean further towards overrated. All he is right now is measurables.

Jr. ROXAS
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Saer Sene 2

Saer Sene 2

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no, he has much better

no, he has much better understanding and feel for the game, he could be a bigger version of Joakim Noah, he has some similar attributes, he just need to improve his mentality ang get tougher.

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I wonder if the big NBA

I wonder if the big NBA center,like Gobert and Len, will fall because of the league's shift towards smaller lineups. The bulky space eater just isn't the same commodity as it once was. And this comes from someone who loves Alex Len (not such a fan of Gobert). But I wonder if he'll be as effective as he could have been if he played 10+ years ago.

Obviously big men are still used, but it seems to be more of a comparative advantage depending on who the team is playing. For example, Roy Hibbert can be the difference maker against the Heat or Knicks. But Hibbert can't be considered someone who forms the Pacers' identity, because he's a liability against the Nuggets or other fast/small teams.

Will big men be designated to roles where they're limited to 20 mins against certain teams?? We're on that trajectory, just not sure how far it'll go.

BothTeamsPlayedHard
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NOOOO!!!Watch the playoffs

NOOOO!!!

Watch the playoffs and see who is left.
Memphis- Marc Gasol, Zach Randolph, and Darrell Arthur
San Antonio- Tim Duncan, Tiago Splitter, Boris Diaw, Matt Bonner, and DeJuan Blair
Golden State- Andre Bogut, David Lee, Carl Landry, and Festus Ezeli
Indiana- Roy Hibbert, David West, Tyler Hansbrough, Jeff Pendergraph, and Ian Mahinmi
Chicago- Carlos Boozer, Joakim Noah, Taj Gibson, and Nazr Mohammed
Miami- LeBron
OKC- Durant, and oh have these playoffs done a ton to show that they need Russell Westbrook
New York- Melo, and no one else who can make a shot

So... good teams, teams who win at least a round in the playoffs, who don't have the best three offensive players on the planet aren't shifting towards smaller lineups. They are big, not just at the 4 and 5 because Barnes, George, Denge, Butler, Prince, and Leonard also speak to bigger 3s as well, and they play real NBA defense. When you look up and down, they aren't light in the butt leapers, but strong athletes who for the Western teams and Indiana are threats on both ends. OKC went from a team that figured with three tremendous offensive players in Durant, Westbrook, and Martin that they could outscore anyone in the West. Now, the calculus has changed without Westbrook and Martin is getting defended, because their frontcourt is getting worked over by Memphis. Miami is not a model for winning a title because there is only one LeBron, and if a team wants to play like Miami has the fatal flaw of playing right into the hands of a team with the ultimate trump card.

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But cmon would you call

But cmon would you call Golden State or OKC big teams? OKC only plays a larger line up now because they're playing slow-tempo Memphis without Westbrook. In fact teams like OKC prove my point that the role of big centers is fading. In addition, I would consider the Nets and Hawks big teams and they got bounced in the first round.

Again I like the role of a big center. Hibbert, Noah and Gasol are serious threats that make their team formidable. But these three guys are great defenders with high bball IQ. I feel like if a team drafts Gobert in the middle-first the GM is just drafting him simply because he's big.

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OKC is playing a larger

OKC is playing a larger lineup because Memphis' frontcourt mandates it, which is why big men matter.

The Thunder haven't built a team that can beat the Heat in a 7-game series. They allow the Heat to play LeBron at the 4, Bosh at the 5 and then surround them with Wade and shooters, and this year would have been no different from last where it was a complete route. Miami is better defensively, they have better stars, and better role players. They are built to play for second place because as good as Kevin Durant is, there is no comparing him to LeBron. Memphis and San Antonio have a chance to beat Miami because their big men force Bird Man, Joel, and the other big bodies onto the floor not to stop anyone but just to keep LeBron from the physical grind. It allows them to use their superior defensive schemes to give more help on LeBron while also riding the advantage up front of offense.

Golden State wants to play big with Bogut, Lee, and Landry. There only limitation is their big men's health. They didn't accidentally trade Monta Ellis for Bogut, overpay David Lee, or further pursue another power forward after already having Lee in Landry.

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Gobert is most definately not

Gobert is most definately not a bulky space eater. But I get what you're saying.

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He has a lot of work to do to

He has a lot of work to do to become NBA ready, but it helps if he's draft and stash prospect because they get more out if him on his rookie contract 2 years from now when he's more developed

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Alexis Ajinca...

Alexis Ajinca...

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Gobert is nothing comparable

Gobert is nothing comparable to Ajinca because he will gain a lot more weight and is already a good player in French pro A averaging 8.5pts 5.5rbds and 2bks in only 22min while Ajinca was raw as hell when he went to the NBA. He will be a top 5 and maybe a surprising top 3 pick because of his height, wingspan, hard working character, underrated athleticism and low post moves. What you also have to consider is that he doesn't have the extreme confidence of his coach who arrived this year is not know for trusting the young players and didn't run a lot of plays for Gobert. Top 5 maybe top 3, just remember...

BothTeamsPlayedHard
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Top five picks go to teams

Top five picks go to teams who need guys they can build around, not just guys on a roster. I understand this is a weak draft, but the relatively poor play of the players coming out of the NCAA does not therefore make the players coming from Europe better able to help bad teams become good. Gobert has not had a terrible season, but his limitations are as clear as his strengths. Yes, he is incredibly tall and long, but he is also very slender and is not going to offer a team the kind of real center that you see in the playoffs. If you think he is a Top 5 pick, then you have to explain to me why Sean May went for 26 points on 12-15 shooting against Cholet while Gobert picked up 4 fouls in 21 minutes. Why did Ahmad Nivins and Darryl Monroe have big games? Yes, he shoots 73 percent, but it also comes from the fact that he is a catch-and-dunk or put back player, which is a major limitation. Bad teams have plenty of guys who can catch-and-dunk, though some also have guys who can't catch. His size and reasonable level of production at such a young age makes him a prospect worth gambling on as someone who can eventually become a rotational center in the NBA beyond the lottery. He probably should stay in France another year or two and allow his body and game to mature. He is not ready to help a team, and his upside needs to account for the lack of skill and strength. Length and athleticism is nice, but everybody in the NBA sees a 7-footer every day of their life. There needs to be more to justify a lottery pick.

moochiee
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Hmm I would disagree. I think

Hmm I would disagree. I think length and athleticism/coordination are exactly what teams look for in a young center in the lotto range. I mean in the past two years alone, you've had Andre Drummond, Meyers Leonard, and Bismack Biyombo all picked in the top 11 and a handful of other guys that I wouldn't exactly call polished going in that range. And even when you compare Gobert with those guys, his physical attributes still jump out as freakish. He definitely needs time before he can really contribute in the NBA, but what you can like about the kid is that he's putting up these nice numbers while still being very skinny and raw. I like the fact that he knows what he's good at (aka getting easy buckets and blocking shots), and seems not to try to play outside of that, which let's face it, is something we see from a lot of young 7 footers these days.

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Andre Drummond wasn't just

Andre Drummond wasn't just tall, he is between 270-290 lbs. He was stronger at 19 than most centers in the league, which is why he was far better suited to be in the NBA despite having an incredibly raw skill set. He made himself useful by being a strong offensive rebounder, a good screener, and really having good hands and balance. There is no comparing him with Gobert, Leonard, and Biyombo. To call Gobert's attributes freakish in comparison to Drummond is laughable. Drummond wouldn't get thrown around by Sean May. Beyond just the weight difference, Biyombo is bad and a big example for why not to draft guys who cannot play in the lottery. Two years in, and not only is he every bit the offensive disaster he was known to be, but also has not made Charlotte any better defensively. Leonard was too slight to be of use on a team desperately wanting a center despite having superior skills to Gobert. It was a decent enough gamble by Portland to take him, but it is also reasonable to wonder if he will ever physically be able to play up to the standard of big man play that we are seeing from Bogut, Duncan, and Gasol out West this round. He has the potential from a skill perspective to do it, but the slightness of his build matters. It is not as if the West is going to get smaller down the line.

As for the blocking shots, you have to understand that blocking a few shots doesn't offset getting lit up by Sean May, Darryl Monroe, and Ahmad Nivins. Stopping people from scoring is the measure of a good defender. Blocking a few shots hasn't helped OKC stop ZBo or Gasol.

The numbers aren't worthy of elevating his status. 8-5 in France ProA isn't earth shattering stuff. Take a look at Sean May (18-8), Darryl Monroe (18-9), Alexis Ajinca (16-6 and 1.6 blocks), Jon Brockman (11-11), Nivins (14-6), Shelden Williams (13-8), Jawad Williams (16-5), and Matt Howard (9-6).

Also there is a big difference between doing a job at because the team needs that role filled and being limited to a lesser role because they cannot do anything else. Being less versatile and talented is not a good thing.

moochiee
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I would call a 7'1 center

I would call a 7'1 center with a 7'9 wingspan freakish, but that's just me...Also I wouldn't speculate to what Andre Drummond would or wouldn't do against some older seasoned pros, especially considering his underwhelming season at Connecticut against inferior competition to French Pro A. Plus nitpicking individual games and using that as evidence to whether or not a player will succeed is pretty lazy scouting anyways. I'm sure if I felt it was relevant I could present a great game he played against some good former NCAA player and use it to support my case, but I don't. Furthermore your definition of lit up is kind of a head scratcher, considering Ahmad Nivins 14/4 in 34 minutes and 19/6 in 27 minutes in two matchups against Gobert while he had 17/7 in 29 minutes and 4/5 in 18 minutes in the other.

I wasn't really providing any of those names as evidence to why these types of players should be drafted where they were, more just to your point that teams need more than just impressive physical attributes to select a player in the lottery, which is just false.

Also, it's beside the point, but I'm not really sure what your saying about the Oklahoma Memphis matchup. I assume you're implying something about Serge Ibaka's defense, but he's actually held ZBO below his season averages and given him a lot trouble, so I'm not sure what your point is.

Mainly, I think you're just under selling Gobert. Skill wise he not much farther behind, if any, then a lot of lottery picks over the past couple years (Leonard, Drummond, Tristan Thompson, Biyombo, Udoh, Ed Davis, etc.). His 70% free throw shooting, gives support that he could become a reliable mid range jump shooter and statistically is certainly a much better shooter than Drummond, Thompson, or Biyombo. I think you look at his contribution the wrong way as well. It's quite normal for a massive bodied 20 year old to be limited at this stage, I don't think that speaks to his talent level like you suggest. What should jump out to you as not normal are his numbers, or as you put it "8-5". I would call it 8.4 PPG 5.4 RPG and 1.9 BPG in 22.7 minutes on 73% shooting! Yes, that's 7...3 %. At any level that number is remarkable, but to be playing this efficiently at a pro level at such a young age is quite an impressive feat. I mean this is legit production, not just hype. Personally, I just haven't can't remember the last 7'1 player with a 7'9 wingspan to come along with so little hype on this website, that's my two cents.

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“Plus nitpicking individual

“Plus nitpicking individual games and using that as evidence to whether or not a player will succeed is pretty lazy scouting anyways. I'm sure if I felt it was relevant I could present a great game he played against some good former NCAA player and use it to support my case, but I don't.”

First off, you posted a highlight tape dedicated to him and made judgments off that.

Second, if someone wants to think a 7-footer blocking shots is a meaningful stat and a translatable skill, you also have to look at the bigger picture of the game. Is he stopping people from scoring? Sean May is statistically the best and most efficient player in France this year on a team that won the Coupe de France. He ate himself out of the NBA, but nobody doubts he is an NBA talent. It is a note worthy opportunity for a big man prospect to show what he has. What happened? Apparently lazy scouting…Or you can look at how he did against the top team in Pro A. More lazy scouting, but how did he fare against Ludovic Vaty and Gravelines? Who performed and who won? Oh well, sloth is a terrible thing. Go down the line. Where did he have his big number games? He has 17 points (8-9), 7 rebounds, 3 blocks against last place Poiters for whom Ahmad Nivins also had a big game. The Coupe de France game went the same way with 10 points (5-6) and 9 rebounds while Ahmad Nivins having 14 points and 5 rebounds. Nanterre did not a guy over 6’8” on the roster and he put up 14 points (6-7) and 6 rebounds in one game and 13 points and 6 rebounds in the other. In a blowout loss to 13-17 LeHavre, Graham Brown put up 20 points (9-12) and 9 rebounds, Gobert had 16 points (6-9), 6 rebounds, and 3 blocks. He was 5-5 for 10 points in a blowout loss to LeMans. In a loss to Roanne, Gobert had 10 points (2-4) and 10 rebounds. Former controversial draft pick Ryan Reid had 12 points (5-8) and 8 rebounds. In a blowout victory, he had 15 points (6-7), 6 rebounds, and 4 blocks against 15-15 Orleans whose biggest players were 6’ 9” Terence Dials and 6’ 9” Brian Greene. Against Dijon, Gobert had 11 points, 11 rebounds, and 4 blocks. Dijon had a front line that went 6’ 7”, 6’ 7”, and 6’ 8”. In their cup loss to Pro B Boulogne-sur-Mer, Gobert outplayed Jaiteh with 14 points (4-5 shooting) and 13 rebounds. Jaiteh had 13 points on 4-11 shooting, but only 2-6 at the rim. Good, but that is a Pro B team and an 18-year old who also is not NBA ready. Not only that, but Cholet lost. Those are his best games. Yes, I get it laziness in the analysis, no relevance at all, but how many times is a 7’ 1” and reportedly 230 lbs. maybe upwards of 245 lbs. center have the kind of size advantage in the NBA he did when he had his big games in France?

“Also, it's beside the point, but I'm not really sure what your saying about the Oklahoma Memphis matchup. I assume you're implying something about Serge Ibaka's defense, but he's actually held ZBO below his season averages and given him a lot trouble, so I'm not sure what your point is.”
35-17 out of their frontcourt when the games are being played in the 80s and 90s does not exactly scream trouble to me.

What should jump out to you as not normal are his numbers, or as you put it "8-5". I would call it 8.4 PPG 5.4 RPG and 1.9 BPG in 22.7 minutes on 73% shooting! Yes, that's 7...3 %.
No. 73% speaks to him being 7’1 and relying on dump offs and put backs. Alex Oriahi made 71 percent of his field goal attempts in the SEC. He also averaged 11.7 and 8.5 rebounds in SEC games. Are you going to talk him up because of it? Or are you not because you have seen him play? As for the minutes, you might also want to bring up the 1.5 turnovers and 2.1 fouls as they play a role in his minute load.

“ I just haven't can't remember the last 7'1 player with a 7'9 wingspan to come along with so little hype on this website, that's my two cents.”
Last month, Aziz N’Diaye measured out at, not just reported as being, 6’ 11 without shoes and a 7’ 6.5” wingspan. He is more or less the same in terms of length, and would appear to be quite a bit heavier. N’Diaye was 2nd in the Pac Twelve in offensive rebounding, 4th in rebounding, 5th in field goal percentage (another catch-and-dunk and put back guy), and does not have buzz. Sertac Sanli is listed at 7'0. He is currently on the top team in Turkey, and behind Milan Macvan (drafted in 2011), Boniface Ndong (former NBA player), and Furkan Aldemir (drafted last year) in the Galatasaray frontcourt. When he has gotten time on the court, he has not been all that different in terms of production than Gobert. Walter Tavares is 7’ 3” and while he has played minimally when with Gran Canaria, but put together a pair of highlight games when sent down to LEB Silver. If you like highlights, watch the games. No buzz, but does he really deserve it? http://youtu.be/svOQ9KDZHo0
http://youtu.be/ILe4bApWjIY

moochiee
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"First off, you posted a

"First off, you posted a highlight tape dedicated to him and made judgments off that."

Haha, what judgements have I made outside of the obvious? He is clearly an athletic freakishly long center with loads of potential, I think that is all I've said about his game so far, and anyone with two working eyes would agree with me...

"Or you can look at how he did against the top team in Pro A. More lazy scouting, but how did he fare against Ludovic Vaty and Gravelines? "

Man I'm not trying to point to any one game he played great or another that he didn't to prove what kind of player he is. You can't go back on any of my posts and see any one great game I've highlighted to make my point. His seasons stats are the only ones I'm referring to, and to your post about his performances against the top competition in the league, his stats versus the top 3 teams in the league are; 7.7 PPG 5.3 RPG 2 BPG in 23 minutes shooting 70.8%, which is not a far cry from what he averaged all season long, so if you're trying to prove his stats are an illusion or propped up, then I think you're off base.

"As for the minutes, you might also want to bring up the 1.5 turnovers and 2.1 fouls as they play a role in his minute load."

Ok sure thanks for bringing them up, he averages less than 4 fouls per 40 minutes, and your point is?

"No. 73% speaks to him being 7’1 and relying on dump offs and put backs."

A dunk is worth just as much as a fadeaway J and is converted at a much higher rate. I personally would love to have someone on my team who's arms could reach the hoop without jumping and would send home any lob I throw up to him, so should we knock the kid or be impressed by the fact that this kid can get a team such easy buckets?

"Alex Oriahi made 71 percent of his field goal attempts in the SEC. He also averaged 11.7 and 8.5 rebounds in SEC games. Are you going to talk him up because of it? Or are you not because you have seen him play? "

Bringing up Alex Oriakhi, just shows how far away from the point you are. Oriakhi is a 6'9 muscular PF who has basically maxed out what he's capable of doing on the court.Gobert has a ridiculous ceiling and is only starting to scratch the surface of his potential. It seems like you lack the ability to look 3 years down the line and imagine the kind of player Gobert could turn into when he's been able to add some strength to his frame and add a few moves to his game.

And again with that list of names you brought up, it seems you don't recognize that basketball is a game of inches. The same 6'4 shooting guard drafted in the second round as an after thought could be a lottery pick with an extra two inches. A 7'6 wingspan is impressive enough, but 7'9 is nearly unheard. And beyond just height and physical measurements, Gobert appears to be mobile and have good hands (other scouting sites attest to this). I should say that I don't believe Gobert is a great player right now, but I think where we disagree is with the expectations that should be placed on him right now. Personally, while his production isn't staggering, I think teams can take comfort from what they see both in his highlight reel and in his boxscores. His potential should honestly be inarguable, from what I've seen I guess I'm more excited about his chances of reaching it.

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"Ok sure thanks for bringing

"Ok sure thanks for bringing them up, he averages less than 4 fouls per 40 minutes, and your point is?"

In a league where scoring big men are not in heavy supply, that is not a good thing, neither is the high rate of turnovers. The additional games in the Eurocup and Coupe de France don't help the cause either.

"A dunk is worth just as much as a fadeaway J and is converted at a much higher rate. I personally would love to have someone on my team who's arms could reach the hoop without jumping and would send home any lob I throw up to him, so should we knock the kid or be impressed by the fact that this kid can get a team such easy buckets?"

Because the kind of dunks Gobert and players like him get are in shorter supply in the NBA. Positioning in the paint and at the rim can be taken away, and if a player is limited to dunks created by others, their value simply is not that great. Take a look at DeAndre Jordan who has been a complete non-factor in two straight playoffs, and take away the physical strength. If that is all a player can do, then don't talk about the conversion rate. The limitations are pushed off onto others who have to take on greater burdens because on the non-threat around them.

"Bringing up Alex Oriakhi, just shows how far away from the point you are. Oriakhi is a 6'9 muscular PF who has basically maxed out what he's capable of doing on the court.Gobert has a ridiculous ceiling and is only starting to scratch the surface of his potential."

No. Living off dunks is living off dunks. You cannot on one hand say "73% shooting! Yes, that's 7...3 %. At any level that number is remarkable" and then be dismissive of another guy doing almost the same thing. The limitations to not having a developed offensive game, and not having the physical strength to get himself to the rim through the bumps and banging that will keep him from there is very much a limiting factor to his supposedly ridiculous ceiling.

"It seems like you lack the ability to look 3 years down the line and imagine the kind of player Gobert could turn into when he's been able to add some strength to his frame and add a few moves to his game."

No, I do, but I also know that the best way to measure a player's development is to look at how he has developed to this point. Rudy Gobert didn't drop out of the sky in October. He was on the same team last year. Their starting center from last year moved on, and Gobert was going to move into that spot. What happened? He didn't come back stronger or more skilled. The numbers went up some because the minutes went up, but the trade off was the team got worse. The expectations, and the reason he was regarded as a possible top 5-10 pick prior to the season, were that we would be better than this. The hope was that the hook shot would not be a once in a while flash and that he would be a dominant defender. It did not happen. Why should I project his future development to be greater than that of Gorgui Dieng who has grown by leaps and bounds over the past three years? It is readily apparent that Dieng puts in the work necessary to maxmize his abilities. Mason Plumlee was projected as a future lottery pick from the moment he got to Duke. He was long, athletic, and the sky was the limit. Four years later and he is still long and athletic. The problem is that he didn't add anything to the length and athleticism. He got better about working with what he has, but didn't really add much to it.

"A 7'6 wingspan is impressive enough, but 7'9 is nearly unheard."

Saer Sene had a 7' 8.5" wingspan. He also converted on 71.7% of his field goal attempts in Belgium the year prior to being drafted by Seattle.

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+1 Fair enough, you make a

+1 Fair enough, you make a lot of good points. There have been a few of this 'type' of player to flop over the past handful of years. I still dig what I see out of him and would take him higher than most in a draft like this one. Very understandable why you wouldn't though. Good argument :P

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In French Pro A, 4 fouls and

In French Pro A, 4 fouls and 3 turnovers per 40 minutes is very good for a young big man.

All the previous young french big men (including NBA players like Petro or Mahinmi), struggled in this areas and more experienced big men like Vaty or Ajinça still struggle despite dominating in Pro A. This is not a league for big men

Gobert was overrated this summer because of Treviso measurements, but he's becoming underrated now. He's big,insanely long, his shoulders can add a lot of weight and he is very mobile.
He's not very skilled nor strong but he's not dumb ala McGee : he plays well without doing much mistakes. He could have done more this year but he's still learning at the center position, and he was obviously very bad coached. Defensively he struggled against tougher big men, but he is the only player who limited Ajinça, the best center in Pro A this year (yes this former NBA bust, softy stretch-forward, became a huge athletic and mobile low-post player in France!)

I really think Gobert's upside is huge, in this weak draft he deserves a mid lotto pick in my opinion

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