[jjonzParticipant]

HoopsWorld has compiled a list of Future Franchise Players. Who do you guys think are FOF(Face of the Franchise) material?

 

[RUDEBOY_Participant]

where’s the link?

[jjonzParticipant]

my bad man next time i’ll put it on or i’ll go look for it now.

[goneParticipant]

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=18525

[jjonzParticipant]

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp

they left off some notable players.

[JBrace19Participant]

i think the least likely to be a FOF is Andrea Bargnani. I think the rest of them have a pretty good chance especially Rondo, Griffin, and Evans if he can get going again. The Kings have potential if they get Cousins going and a true PG

[datkiddatsalwaysBallinParticipant]

Rojon rondo: franchise player nothing more to say

bargnani: simply overated imo and if he didnt play for the raptors he wouldnt be gettin that much points. 3rd or 4th option on a good team, 2nd option for a bad team. to sum it up not a franchise player

Al harford: hes got a lot of potential but he doesnt get the ball that much. as long as he plays for the hawks because of joe johnson he will always be a 2nd option at best. not a franchise player

Lamarcus aldridge: hes playing great right now without brandon roy but its too early to say. if he keeps it up i will say he has a small chance but right now hes a second option.

russell westbrook. has shown great flashes and plays well with or without durant. franchise player

blake griffin: no comment

kevin love: in between franchise player and second option

Tyreke evans: franchise player hasnt looked like it this season but a lot of people forget the fact that hes injured.

rudy gay: very good player but hes a second option imo

monta ellis: franchise player hes a great scorer and has look like a leader this season

 

[jjonzParticipant]

If you could pair him up with a big point guard like E.Snow (6’5) or Penny Hardaway (6’7, when he ran the point). I think he could be a Great player tremendous upside. If he is availble i would trade the kitchen sink to get him. If not GS should look for a big PG and build around him & make a run for the Chip.

Griff really does have the look of a Rare player.

I wish i could watch JWall play more to better assest his game. But according to Charlie Rosen he is another Rare Player.

D.Rose should lead the Bulls to at least 2 Chips, on his way to a HOF career.

KD same thing as D.Rose

Two ? T.Evans & R.Westbrook. Are they franchise material. Can Westbrook be Robin to Durant’s Batman.  Tyreke is a ? mark for me because i have’nt seen him play just going by reports of people who watch him daily.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

You can’t have Griffin, Rondo, Aldridge, and Westbrook in the same category as the rest. Those others are at least one wrung lower on the NBA totem pole.

[Tha_PrinceParticipant]

 Bargnani is a great scorer but if I learned anything from the Bosh era it’s don’t try to turn a soft player into the face of the franchise.

I do believe he could be a solid second scoring option on a winning team though, hypothetically if the Raptors get an all-star caliber player (I know hard to come by this draft but maybe in the future drafts).

[Toronto16Participant]

A guy who is a HORRIBLE defender can not be a franchise player (Bargnani)

[the microwaveParticipant]

eric snow was 6’5" LOL….didnt know he grew since he retired.. Thanks for the news flash… hes 6’3" in shoes my dude..

[jjonzParticipant]

when he played i thought i heard someone (commentator say he was 6’5) you’re right he is 6’3. Anyway, what i mean by big point guard is R.Harper with the Bulls & Lakers. Larry Hughes, big guys that can play defense, so that M.Ellis will not be a mismatch on the Defensive end.

[xbadgerhustlerParticipant]

KLove can never be the best player on a championship team. I watch him play all the time (season ticket holder) and he will never EVER be that good. He could def be a very good complementary player

[LAKE SHOW]

Love can be more than just a complementary player and the best player on a title team if the team is built like the Pistons. You dont have to be a superstar to be the best player on a title team like that.

 

And Nash is a horrible defender@ Churchboy1, is he a franchise player?..Also 2 time Leauge MVP

[LAKE SHOW]

The Kings are more than a pg and cousins playign well, away from being very good

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

"Love can be more than just a complementary player and the best player on a title team if the team is built like the Pistons. You dont have to be a superstar to be the best player on a title team like that.

 

And Nash is a horrible defender@ Churchboy1, is he a franchise player?..Also 2 time Leauge MVP"

That Pistons team had an entire roster (save the human victory cigar) who guarded people well. If a team is going to overachieve and break through the star structure of the league, they have to pass the ball exceptionally well and be an elite defensive team. Love is a huge detriment defensively, and that whole act where he cried about being benched early in the year by Rambis for not moving his feet defensively shows that he doesn’t get it. That is a loser’s mentality, and if he wasn’t the media darling he would not get the pass for being the stat padding loser that guys like Zach Randolph and Ricky Davis got hit with.

[LAKE SHOW]

Stat padding?..lol…He has shown his whole basketball career that he can score and rebound. I’m still tryna find one coach who agrees with anything you say about Love ( other than defense which is pretty much on point). I cant think of one coach or player who says he is stat padding and i would think they would know more than any of us as far as that dont you think?

[jjonzParticipant]

 

Though the Clippers went on to easily dispatch the Timberwolves 126-111, it was Blake Griffin‘s streak of double-doubles that fell short. Griffin needed just two rebounds, but with the game well in hand, he was yanked from the contest with 3:54 left in the game. His streak of double-doubles came to a screeching halt at 27.

Interestingly enough, it was the NBA’s longest streak that seemed in peril midway through the game. Minnesota’s Kevin Love, who failed to snag a single rebound in the first half, didn’t post his 10th rebound until the 6:56 mark of the fourth period.

No rebounds in the first half, game well out of reach yet he’s in there getting rebounds for his losing team?

 

[Ghost01Participant]

Yeah, Kevin LOve will be the star on a team just like the Pistons. Because clearly those Pistons teams were about players who dont play defense. Great analogy.

[jjonzParticipant]

This could work if KLove is Apart of a winning culture that can handle his shortcomings. If he can’t play defense then have shotblocking 5 next to him. a strong Wing defender. And a dynomite PG. There is a team and a way for him to be a franchise player, if not franchise then close to max money.

[Ghost01Participant]

Last night showed the difference between Griffin and Love.

Griffin’s streak was snapped, because he wasnt needed for the last 4 minutes of the game.

Loves streak continued as he played the whole 2nd half, got rebounds, but lost, for the 33rd time this season.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

"Stat padding?..lol…He has shown his whole basketball career that he can score and rebound. I’m still tryna find one coach who agrees with anything you say about Love ( other than defense which is pretty much on point). I cant think of one coach or player who says he is stat padding and i would think they would know more than any of us as far as that dont you think?"

Players don’t rip other players, coaches don’t knock other team’s players. They share agent/union/shoe/endorsement/college allegiances, and they never know how their paths may cross. Other than Kobe, Shaq, and Jordan, it does not happen.  LeBron talked about how excited he was to play with a defensive center like Joel Anthony last summer. Do you want to give some sort of great meaning to that? Players heaped praise on David Lee last year and said he deserved to be an All-Star, big deal. Lee clearly wasn’t worthy when you see how the team got better when they got a real All-Star in Amare. The Warriors spent $80 million on him, and still stink. If you want to know a coach who actually thinks Love is stat padding, it is Rambis. He did speak out early in the year. He has tried to send the message that he has to guard people, and after taking a lot of heat over it in the Twin Cities had to stop. Funny, how Love is playing more minutes, the minutes all the fantasy and boxscore analysts said he needed and deserved, but the results are just as miserable. Now, the team stinks and the organization cut the legs out from the coach they hired to try to fix the mess.

[Ghost01Participant]

^^^^^

And this is why he is the best poster on this website.

[llperez]

i dont think rondo is a franchise player. He is an all-star and maybe good for all nba third team this season. But he is not good enough to be the man and lead a team on his own unless that team is stacked with other all-stars. Put rondo on a bad team and i dont see the wins skyrocketing.

[LAKE SHOW]

lol…so because he got more rebound sin the second half thats stat padding?…come on really? I’ve seen games where blake didnt play good in the first half but scored more int he second and rebounded even though the clippers were not gonna win is that stat padding as well?..So should a player just give up in the second half?

 

 

I think rondo is a franchise player in the way John stockton was. HE doesn’t score alot of points but he makes others better and scores when he has to as well as playing very good defense

[LAKE SHOW]

I guess we will see what NBA coachs think of Love and Blake on losing teams if they get picked to be Allstars. If they are picked then that silents alot of critics who will obviously be wrong about a player being a Allstar on a losing team

[LAKE SHOW]

They dont speak out on other players but they also dont make a player seem better then they are (unless its there own coach) When a coach says a player has Allstar ability or a player says it he isn’t just making it up or being nice, If he doesn’t have the ability the player will say something generic like " he’s a pretty good player or a glue guy"

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

"lol…so because he got more rebound sin the second half thats stat padding?…come on really? I’ve seen games where blake didnt play good in the first half but scored more int he second and rebounded even though the clippers were not gonna win is that stat padding as well?..So should a player just give up in the second half?

 

 

I think rondo is a franchise player in the way John stockton was. HE doesn’t score alot of points but he makes others better and scores when he has to as well as playing very good defense"

An NFL team no matter how good or how bad is going to throw for 3000 yard, run for 1000 yard, and have 1000 tackles. An MLB team  is going to win 50 games and score 500 runs. An NBA is going to score points and get rebounds. There is a floor to how bad someone can be. It doesn’t have a great deal of meaning how the numbers get distributed on a bad team. Right now, Cleveland is trotting out Manny Harris and Alonzo Gee. The fact that they are getting minutes and therefore accumulate numbers does not make them more talented. If Alonzo Gee was worthy of being a starter, then he wouldn’t be on his third team this year. If Anthony Tolliver was as good as the numbers he put up with Golden State last year, he wouldn’t have had a problem finding a better gig than to backup Darko. Kevin Love is putting up great numbers, but they don’t have a lot of meaning because of the fact that whoever is playing Minnesota is also putting up great numbers and those great numbers are also accompanied by Ws. I’m not saying he shouldn’t be in the league, I’m saying he’s not an All-Star. He wasn’t better than Al Jefferson last year, and the only difference is that Jefferson went to Utah, essentially swapped out for Beasley, and has found himself getting the same numbers on a better team while Love and Beasley are getting better numbers on a team that is no better off for them.

[llperez]

love>al jefferson. I think utah would make that switch in a heartbeat and we already know minnesota wouldnt.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

Based off nothing but you liking UCLA and Love. Al Jefferson was the better player when they were on the same team, and he has showed himself to be capable of putting up those same numbers on a good Utah squad.

[llperez]

no bias whatsoever, surprised you would even resort to that. ANd utah has been good for years, jefferson hasnt improved them at all. Al jefferson was the better player when they were on the same team, but again, you keep up bringing up the past. Love has grown into the player he is today. Jefferson hasnt shown improvement in years. Fact is minnesota alrteady showed who they value more. And i would love to hear what utah fans think about this as to who they would take.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

I said it because you are completely in the tank for all things UCLA. The Jazz lost Boozer, were going into the year without Okur, and were regarded by many as a team that would drop off. They have not at all because Jefferson is not the same player as Boozer but one the same level, which is very good and borderline All-Star. Love is the player he is today because Jefferson left and opened up more numbers to be had. If he got better, Minnesota wouldn’t have stagnated at the bottom of the league.

[llperez]

WHiel I know we are on different pages here and wont see eye to eye, i have a real hard time believeing you honestly think love hasnt gotten significantly better on his own merits.

[LAKE SHOW]

Its pretty obvious what Love is doing is special considering there have been bad teams every year yet you dont see guys averaging 20 and 15. Its funny because as i Type NBAtv is talking about love. They asked the NBA coach’s and players and they all said he should be a all star. I think that says it all right there when coach’s who coach against you and Players who play against you acknowledge how good you are. You will always have the fans who think its a fluke or means nothing but they dont matter, all that matters is what you’re peers and Coach’s think of you’re game and they all are in Agreement that Love is a beast. BTPH can doubt all he wants but it is what it is. I still cant find one article where any Coach,player agress with what he is saying.

[llperez]

no player in NBA history has missed the all-star game while averaging 20 & 15. Not that that gaurantees love a spot, but it kinda negates the argumet of nobody with 10 wins makes an all-star game. Also like lake show mentioned, if loves numbers were simply a product of being on a bad team, how come we dont see crazy numbers like this every year? There are numerous bad teams every year.

[omphalosParticipant]

I thought I’d chime in here to say that while Minnesota is stagnating at the bottom of the league again, there are a number of factors to consider. For one, they still haven’t resolved their PG situation, and having Rubio come over to end this limbo period they have at the point is a big factor, even if just to give the team some stability. Secondly, they are losing by smaller margins this year by far, and their inability to close out games can be attributed somewhat to their PG problems and also their youth. However, the T’Wolves are much improved this year, and deserve credit for being close to a lot of good teams more often than not.

That said, some of that is Love, but a lot of that is also Beasley, he takes the pressure off Love to score so much and is becoming a very good closer at the end of games. The only problem is that neither defend very enthusiastically, and they’ll need a respected coach to come in and force them to play D with the backing of the organisation to bench players etc. In time their D will improve, and if Rubio comes over that will be another bonus to their defensive schemes as he’s quite the pick-pocket from all accounts.

But having said all that I don’t think Kevin Love is a franchise player, despite his deserving more credit than BTPH is giving him.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

What am I shorting him of? He isn’t better than Kobe, Pau, Odom, Duncan, Parker, Manu, Williams, Millsap, Jefferson, Durant, Westbrook, Melo, Billups, Aldridge, Nash, Monta, Griffin, Dirk, Paul, West, Randolph, or Gay. He isn’t an All-Star.

"no player in NBA history has missed the all-star game while averaging 20 & 15. Not that that gaurantees love a spot, but it kinda negates the argumet of nobody with 10 wins makes an all-star game. Also like lake show mentioned, if loves numbers were simply a product of being on a bad team, how come we dont see crazy numbers like this every year? There are numerous bad teams every year."

Last year, we had it with Steph Curry, Monta Ellis David Lee, and Andray Blatche. There were people who thought Stephen Curry was as good as Derrick Rose. We have seen Chris Kaman a year of 16-13 and a year of 19-9. Jalen Rose had a year and a half of 22-5-4. Michael Redd 26.7 per game. Jalen Rose and Michael Redd were good, not that good. What is weirder than Juan Dixon averaging 12 PPG in the NBA? How about Lee Nailon 14 PPG for a season on an awful Hornets team and then never being seen again? Tyronn Lue had a year of 13.5 and 5.4 per. Danny Fortson had some crazy rebounding years, but even the awful Warriors never wanted to trot him out for 30 minutes per. Take a stroll through basketball reference and check out the dregs of the league and see the players whose numbers were so undeservedly inflated by playing on terrible teams.

The league is at an odd spot right now where there is a clear trend towards bad teams trying to pick up the pace and play faster. It has nothing to do with them getting better, but it results in more shots, more points, and more rebounds. This is why Tyreke Evans can put up a rookie stat line that puts him in a legendary class. This is why Kevin Love can put up numbers typically only seeby big men who carry their teams to the Finals. This is why there is always another bad new fat contract for David Lee, Larry Hughes, Cuttino Mobley, Mike James, Eddy Curry, Troy Murphy, Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Larry Hughes, etc.

LAKESHOW, if a reporter went up to any NBA player and asked whether any name player was an All-Star, they’d say yes. Is Lamar Odom an All-Star? Yes, he is a tough guard and can do so much for them? Is Steve Nash an All-Star? Yes, he is incredible. He is still one of the best point guards around. By the time you run through the names, there would be thirty guys on each squad. If you ask them Love or Dirk? Pau? Duncan? Griffin? Aldridge? Millsap? Jefferson? West? Randolph? Scola? All of a sudden the idea of top twelve in the conference becomes a more clear.

And when you mentioned Michael Redd losing games, nobody made the case for him being an All-Star that year. Nobody claimed the rookie Dirk Nowitzki was an All-Star.
 

[llperez]

which is why as basketball fans we have to look beyond stats and watch the guys and have enough understanding of the game to realize if they are legit all-star game changers or guys getting stats on bad teams. Kevin martin is a scorer, but thats it. David lee made it becasue the east was in desperate need of a big man and truthfully lee was the next best avialeble. Plus his game this year has been off in large part due to his arm injury which was clearly affecting him, not that he ouwld make the all-star game in the west this year anyways.

Love on the other hand, in my humble opinion, is a legit all-star caliber player. Every team who plays minnesota knows hes the man to stop and yet he gets his numbers every night. You cant put all the blame for his teams record on him. He is one of the best bigs in the game at having the ball on the perimiter and making good decisions, whether it be shooting, passing or whatever. His perimiter skills as a big man allow him to be one of the best release points when the offense get clogged down unlike most big men who when they have the ball outside are playing hot potato trying to get rid of it. He is the best rebounder in the game. He is one of the better 3 point shooters regardless of position.

Put him in san antonio or orlando or miami and i think he gets close to his same numbers and people would still be calling him an all-star candidate.

[EntropyParticipant]

Why is john wall not on that list?

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

"

which is why as basketball fans we have to look beyond stats and watch the guys and have enough understanding of the game to realize if they are legit all-star game changers or guys getting stats on bad teams. Kevin martin is a scorer, but thats it. David lee made it becasue the east was in desperate need of a big man and truthfully lee was the next best avialeble. Plus his game this year has been off in large part due to his arm injury which was clearly affecting him, not that he ouwld make the all-star game in the west this year anyways.

Love on the other hand, in my humble opinion, is a legit all-star caliber player. Every team who plays minnesota knows hes the man to stop and yet he gets his numbers every night. You cant put all the blame for his teams record on him. He is one of the best bigs in the game at having the ball on the perimiter and making good decisions, whether it be shooting, passing or whatever. His perimiter skills as a big man allow him to be one of the best release points when the offense get clogged down unlike most big men who when they have the ball outside are playing hot potato trying to get rid of it. He is the best rebounder in the game. He is one of the better 3 point shooters regardless of position.

Put him in san antonio or orlando or miami and i think he gets close to his same numbers and people would still be calling him an all-star candidate."

All that praise you heaped on Love, is also applicable to Zach Randolph. Memphis is better and the numbers are not significantly different. Same for Luis Scola. Houston is better. LaMarcus Aldridge has his team with a winning record despite half their team losing a leg, and he deserves that same praise. Why would the guy on the 10-33 team jump them in line?

If he was on San Antonio, he’d be DeJuan Blair. He wouldn’t be playing 35 minutes per because he doesn’t guard anyone, but he’d be that matchup play for Pops. On Orlando, he gets half the rebounds because Dwight Howard is getting his, and that is if he doesn’t drive Stan Van Gundy crazy in the way people who don’t play defense drive him crazy. In Miami, Spoelstra would shoot him for not guarding anyone. We saw how that went with Beasley. Do you really think a guy that trots out Joel Anthony the way Spoelstra does is all that impressed by statistics? Your problem is that because you like Kevin Love, you want to ignore the flaws in his game that are so readily apparent to anyone who has seen Minnesota play. Kevin Love is a good player. He is not elite, and he is not good enough to be as bad a defender as he is on a team with a coach who has a spine.

[llperez]

again, im bringing valid arguments but the fact you continue to act like im biased shows you are getting frustrated. Is everyone who is defending love obviously biased or do we all not watch the wolves play?

I would have no problem at all if aldridge or zbo made the all-star game over love. I already said wins matter and might keep him out, but dont act like the wolves would be better with any of those guys as opposed to love becasue i seriously doubt it.

ANd if you think love and dejuan blair are the same player, then i dont know what to tell you becasue they arent even close. Love’s rebounding would drop next to dwight but he and dwight together would dominate boards and the team would improve and love style wsie would stretch defenses just as well as rashard did. And im guessing the heat would gladly sacrifice a littel defense for all the positves love would bring the heat. I think he owuld fit great with lebron and wade and might even start ahead of bosh if the heat really wanted joel anthony out there for his defense.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

I’m frustrated because you are applying the completely flawed logic of Minnesota to keep trotting out players  without regard to whether they are playing the right way. Good teams and organizations don’t work that way. Good coaches would sooner quit than work under those conditions. Scott Skiles got fired by the Bulls for saying he wasn’t going to hand Tyrus Thomas, Thabo Sefolosha, and Joakim Noah minutes over more deserving players. The Heat have a very clear history with talented young players (Michael Beasley and Dorell Wright) who didn’t defend. Why would anyone assume their position would be different with another player with the same m.o.? Stan Van has driven himself and his players crazy with the way he obsesses over everything, but particularly defense. Why would you think he would handle Love differently than Vince Carter or J.J. Redick? DeJuan Blair and Kevin Love are both undersized power forwards. Blair is moving his feet better this year but still is limited defensively because of his lack of height. Love is worse at that end but does offer a jump shot. I don’t see how the jump shot somehow negates the lack of defensive effort. That isn’t a team that obsesses over numbers, they do about efficiency.

[omphalosParticipant]

Just to clarify the selling short of Beasley and Love I was referring to was this; "a team that is no better off for them." As I said, in the tough West, they are better off even if it isn’t reflected in the W column, simply because they are competitive at home at least, and have had a number of close game with league leaders San Antonio for example.

[llperez]

love is better then all those guys you mentioned. His positive impact on the game makes up for his defense far more then any of those other guys.

[llperez]

and spoelstra doesnt trot joel anthony out there just becasue he loves his defense. He trots him out there becasue his next best options are juwan howard, eric dampier and zydrunas ilgauskas.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

"love is better then all those guys you mentioned. His positive impact on the game makes up for his defense far more then any of those other guys."

Then why have his teams always stunk? If you go through the list of All-Star this year and throughout the history of the NBA, haven’t all great players had their "positive impact" result in wins?You cannot separate wins and losses from the value and impact of a player.

[llperez]

its early in his career. Too early to suggest that his talent doesnt result in wins. Give him teammates that are decent and then judge him for wins. Minnesota hasnt had anything close to a playoff roster in an extremely deep western conference.

[Ghost01Participant]

llperez, your logic is completely flawed.

There is no evidence that Kevin Love is better than any of those guys, because we cant prove it. His team blows, and he is a horrible defender. This is a guy who couldnt play more than 25 minutes a game when they had big al, and that was a bottom feeding lottery team. Now they moved jefferson, and he gets to do whatever he wants.

The most laughable thought was that of him rebounding at the same level if he was on orlando. Clearly you dont watch basketball. Dwight Howard is by far the best rebounder in the NBA. He mad Joakim Noah, who is an elite rebounder on the best rebounding team in the NBA look like a fool on the boards.

Heres a question to you Love lovers, who is Minnesota’s 2nd best rebounder?

[Ghost01Participant]

Its also funny that when the Clippers were 5-21, they had a "horrible supporting cast", but now that Blake has gotten them afloat, there supporting cast is emensely better than Minnesota’s.

[BigDParticipant]

There isn’t a 2nd best rebounder, but doesn’t that make it more impressive if there’s only 1 guy to box out and keep off the boards.

[llperez]

clearly i dont watch basketball, lol

At this point im talking to a wall, but ill repeat for the 5th time, love is 22, he got better. Believe it or not players in their thrid season can improve. Jefferson leaving is a small part of it. ANyone who watches basketball can see love has imprved significantly this season. Why do you think jefferson is gone? Becasue the wolves knew who was going to be better. And again, im willing to bet the jazz would absolutey take love and give jefferson back if they were given the opportunity. ANyone who uses he is only doing it becasue jefferso n left doesnt watch basketball if you ask me. Also anyone who says i said he would get the same number of rebounds if he was in orlando clearly doesnt read either. Go back and try again.

[llperez]

clippers have always had a better supporting cast. Dont know how long you have been on this site urban, but every single year is the season the clips talent breaks out and they play to their potential and they make the playoffs. That is an annual thing on this site.

[Ghost01Participant]

again, your only evidence of him getting so much better is his numbers. He isnt making anyone with any credibility pay in the paint. He isnt dominating games to the point of victory. Has he improved? ofcourse, but theres a difference from improving and being an all star. He still hasnt proven against top flight talent he can dominate a game. Even if hes doing it in the box score, he is getting blown out of the water. Did you watch Andray Blatche last year? Im sure there plenty of idiotic posters like you that were thinking he was the 2nd coming of Karl Malone when he went on that scoring binge. Or how bout Darren Collison going 20/10 for the Hornets team that was losing 3/4 games?

Look where they are now. Blatche is back to being a nobody and Collison is putting up mediocre numbers on a weak playoff team.

[llperez]

you need to stop looking at box scores and using stats all the time. Watch the games and you will see what love is doing. I actually watch the wolves a lot and every single game the announcers for the opposing team are talking about how he is an all-star.

[Ghost01Participant]

Right, the announcers are saying hes an all star, so it has to be true.

I watched him vs Blake just the other night…and he was clearly not on BLake’s level, and got most of his production when they came was essentially over. IVe watched the T Wolves more than enough this year, and they always lose, so obviously, he must not be that great. He doesnt dominate games, he doesnt do anything to make it obvious he is changing the outcome of the games. If you wanna see rebounding change games, watch Dennis Rodman. He made love look like Brook Lopez.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

“its early in his career. Too early to suggest that his talent doesnt result in wins. Give him teammates that are decent and then judge him for wins. Minnesota hasnt had anything close to a playoff roster in an extremely deep western conference.”

So let’s tie in the Golden State Warriors with this too. The Warriors have supposedly three All-Star caliber players in Ellis, Curry, and Lee. How many more years and how many more good players do they need before they can compete? If you believe Kevin Love and Michael Beasley are good, then what else do they need? Webster and Ridnour were able to help winning teams elsewhere. Wes Johnson was a top five pick. They are going to add another top five pick this year. How long are you giving them before they have to grow up and be held accountable for their team’s failure?

[llperez]

rodman also did nothing but stand under the basket and focus on rebounding. Love actually is the main offensive player and he spends a lot of his time outside on the three point line. Rodman was never at any point in his career one of the 2 best players on his team.

[llperez]

@btph, i dont think beasley is all that good. I’ve never said curry or lee are all-star caliber players. I did say lee deserved to make it last year, but that was becasue there werent enough true all-star bigs in the east. That has happened plenty of times in the past when guys like tyrone hill, horace grant, anthony mason, jayson williams, christian leattner, jamal magloire, al horford have made it. Making an all-star team in the east as a big man doesnt always mean a whole lot not that those guys didnt deserve it at the time considering the other options.

[Ghost01Participant]

Rodman also won 5 rings.

Love barely wins 5 games a season.

The fact your last post insinuates you actually think Love is better than Rodman is a joke.

And back to BTPH, exactly, if Love and Beasely are both good, then wouldnt the T Wolves be good? I mean Chicago has only played with 2 "good" players the whole season, and they are 29-14. They are playing with 1 right now. Tonight, Kurt Thomas and CJ Watson were there 2nd and 3rd best crunchtime players. and they beat Dallas. Thats why Derrick Rose is an all star. Kevin Love and Michael Beasely are losers, and are losers until proven otherwise.

[llperez]

i never said rodman wasnt better then love, although i do think it is pretty close. ROdman was a role player. You put rodman on the wovles this year instead of love and im not sure they win 10 games all season. But my point in comparing them was you brought up hopw rodman was such a better rebounder. If love said screw it i dont give a damn about scoring. IM just gonna stand under the rim offense be damned. I think he could get more rebounds then rodman did which is believe his career high was about 18. Its actually a major compliment to love that most great rebounders in the past 30 years have been either role players or 7 footers who just stood around the paint. Love is neither of those.

[Ghost01Participant]

So Beasely puts up 20.6 and 5.7, but hes just a player putting up numbers on a bad team, while Love is great? Does that make any sense what so ever? Again flawed points…

[Ghost01Participant]

llperez, obviously you didnt watch Rodman play very much.

Rodman’s game was outhustling everyone on every single play, and willing his way to rebounds. He was 6 foot 7. And he consistantly averaged 19 rebounds per game. In the 96 finals, he single handidly won the Bulls 2 of the 4 games. He was a once in a lifetime talent who changed games his own unique way.

COmparing him to a player who has a  23 win % in his career was a joke.

YOu talk about "IF Rodman had to focus on offense blah blah blah"

But Rodman was a WINNER. He was the 3rd best player on a THREE PEAT, thats alot more important than Love being the best player on a top 5 worst team in the NBA. You have no idea what you are talking about even comparing the two. Rodman may have been a role player, but if Love was on a winner, he would be no more than that.

[llperez]

once again urban, stop relying on stats. Watch games. Beasley is a scorer and thats it, thats why his stats dont mean much to me. Love impacts the game in other ways. He is a great rebounder and passer. He is a great shooter. He is a high iq guy who rarely plays out of control. Stop relying on stats so much and watch games.

[llperez]

urban, i can promise you i have watched more of rodman then you have. WHen did you start watching basketball since you repeatedly like to bring up how much more basketball you watch? ALso rodman "consistently averaged 19 rebounds"? Lol, if by consistent you mean he never averaged 19 rebounds ever, lol. ANd i can promise you love could win titles too if he was the third best player on a team. Is robert horry a star in your mind too?

[Ghost01Participant]

dude, you are comparing Kevin Love to Dennis Rodman. I refuse to even have a conversation with you anymore.

For a 4 year stretch, Rodman averaged 16.8-18.7 rebounds. Sorry it wasnt 19.

And yes, Kevin Love is great at everything. his 2.5 assists really show his outstanding passing ability.

I know you didnt watch Rodman just by the way you are making him out to be. He did so much for a team it wasnt even funny, he just wasnt a scoring player. You cant measure the energy and hustle he brought. The way he could guard 7 footers in the 90s when most teams had a stud center. The way he just had that knack for knowing there the rebound was every time.

COmparing this to a guy who is 10-33. 10-33. Just defend 10-33, and nothing else, actually dont, because im not reading your response because you have disgraced basketball knowledge by even putting him and Rodman in the same conversation.

[llperez]

you brought rodman nto this discussion not me. The only comparison i made between love and rodman was that love could get the same numiber of rebounds if he didnt care about offense since you said rodman was such a better rebounder.. Other then that, how did i make rodman out to be? DId i ever say love was better? Did i ever say rodman wasnt a champ? You are grassping at straws here. ANd honest to goodness real talk urdban, i have been in plenty of arguments on this site with numerous users. But whether i agree with them or not i usually respect thsir knowledge. I do not respect your knowledge at all. You do not know your stuff man and its obvious.

[llperez]

ehh, i take it back urban. I do respect your knowledge. I dont need to be getting into petty internet arugments. We just disgree.

[iguapops420Participant]

 I’m a Laker fan, not a UCLA fan. Never been a fan of Love, as I hate his poor defense and lack of athleticism. But you can’t deny what the guy brings. And actually the Pistons ARE the perfect analogy. Rip Hamilton has always been a piss poor defender and wasn’t exactly great the finals years. He played solid man D with a team of tenacious rebounders. K-Love would actually be nice defensively beside of an athletic defensive minded center, and a defensive oriented team where he could use his body and toughness to root people around and bang. He’d be nice with the old Bad Boy teams, or the Celtics, or even the Spurs. Don’t forget rebounding is also a part of defense. And when you’re gobbling up second chance baskets, there is some leeway defensively that as a team you can make up for. You think Glen Davis is a terrific defender? What about Al Jefferson? Z-Bo? Booz? Some players have to be TAUGHT how to defend and buy into a defensive system. Look at K-Love at UCLA, he wasn’t exactly a defensive presence, but when the time was needed (tourney) he comes away with a triple double on 10 blocks. Point is, he CAN play D, it’s just a matter of system and surrounding players. Beasley,Ellington,Flynn,Darko,Ridnour,Telfair, Kurt Rambis. Yeah, first thing that came to mind with those guys was defense.

[iguapops420Participant]

 Wow, really should have payed attention and saw there was a second page to this thread. Rodman was never on a bad team. He consistently played with winning teams with numerous offensive options so YEShe was able to focus on rebounding. I do disagree that the Worm simply camped out under the basket looking for rebounds. Throughout his career you would see Rodman guarding all sorts of players from Shaq to MJ. Leaving him guarding the perimeter at times. 

IMO, Rodman and Love are 2 different types of rebounders. Love, like Rodman can get rebounds out of sheer will, the difference is that Love goes block to block after rebounds which is a rarity for bigs, and good basic fundamentals of boxing out and using length.

Rodman on the other hand, used physicality, change of positioning, elbows, will, and having the ELITE nose for the ball. Rodman would go after the rebounds that seemed like they were going to go out of bounds and would ignite fast breaks for Mike and Scottie, something the two used to compete with each other for.  Rodman made rebounding look cool, but he was never an offensive option having 9.8 I believe as his highest PPG.

ATM, Rodman’s rebounding is more impactful simply because that was his role and he did it at an elite level, but to say Love’s rebounding is not as impactful is one’s opinion because you could argue that without Love’s rebounding, the Wolves wouldn’t win at all. 

BTW, Beasley is a scorer plain and simple, first and foremost. Anyone who has watched him play can tell you that. For all of the basketball you watch, you seem to miss a lot of the "obvious" things. 

[Ghost01Participant]

I agree to disagree, and i also agree with iguapops points

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