[r377Participant]

Dion Waiters is getting alot of hype lately especially with the so called "lottery promise"

Quite a few ppl have now got him in the lottery in their mocks.

Most of us had him going 15-20 a week or two back.  The guy averaged 12ppg and not much else, went 2-8 in his final game against OSU.

Why has he suddenly shot up the mocks ? is it just me ?

[JrbenzCuse23]

 His per 40 minute stats were near the top in country both offensively and decensively. Swallowed his pride to come off the bench on a loaded, experienced team. The most explosive scorer and attacker in the draft many scouts say. Dominated final month of season showing range well beyond NBA three. Many disagree o certain of these points but these are more or less the reasons. Monster in transition

[JrbenzCuse23]

Plus that OSU game was a travesty he was in foul trouble the whole game on touch calls, couldn’t get into a rhythym. Look at previous 5 or 6 games if you are going to base off a small sample size, ended the year 13-22 from 3 or something ridiculous for somebody who is supposedly not a good shooter.

[F_S]

 ^ well said, but i still think his stock rose too suddenly.

he is a very good player, just like moe harkless, terrence jones and royce white, that doesnt mean he’s going number 8 imo. the highest i would take him would be to the rockets with the 14

[F_S]

 not when your teammates get as much minutes as you do

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

He is built like a tank. I do not believe you can go off of statistics for him, he was on a deep team and played his role to a tee. The guy averaged 12.6 ppg in 24.1 mpg. Lets compare this to some of the other top SG’s:

Bradley Beal: 14.8 ppg in 34.2 mpg (If you average by points per minute, Waiters would be at 17.9 in 34.2)

Jeremy Lamb: 17.7 ppg in 37.2 mpg (Waiters: 19.4)

Austin Rivers: 15.5 ppg in 33.2 mpg (Waiters: 17.4)

The guy definitely has a talent for putting the ball in the basket, he can handle the rock and his strength at the 2 could be a major advantage. One thing that may have him possibly being considered above a Jeremy Lamb, for instance, is that he showed the ability to get to the FT line far more often. Lamb’s shot might be more pure (at least from a mechanics standpoint), but Waiters averaged almost as many FT attempts (3.2 to 3.6) in 13 fewer minutes. That is pretty significant and a factor that could bode well for him (though Austin Rivers got to the line more than any of the 4).

Terrence Ross is another SG who may go before Waiters, but I think he is a strong player and maybe the best pure scorer at the current time out of the 5. To me, these are reasons he is shooting up the draft board. If Syracuse had a star this season, it was Dion Waiters. The "has a little Dwyane Wade in him" given to Chad Ford by some NBA scout, might be along the lines of saying the same thing about Randy Foye in 2006. Still, Waiters is stronger and I believe a more solid athlete than Foye. I am not sure if I rate him a top 10 pick or not, but I am not incredibly surprised he has been getting love from scouts.

[basedSERBParticipant]

It’s pretty impressive when ur the 6th man and the leading scorer on your team

[cuseflynn10Participant]

I’ve said this before, but I’ll say it again: I’m almost 99.9% sure the Raptors didn’t promise to take Waiters at #8. Let’s think logically for a minute. By the time the #8 pick rolls around, we know Davis, Drummond, Barnes, MKG, Robinson, and Beal will likely be off the board. That leaves Waiters, Lillard, Marshall, Rivers, Lamb, Jones, Jones, Sullinger, Moultrie, Henson, Leonard, and a whole lot more players still availble. Do you think the #8 picking team would give a promise three weeks before the draft? I would think they would give more workouts to gauge the talent that’s available, and give a guarantee closer to draft day.

 

With that said, I think Waiters could go to Phoenix, Houston, Phily, Dallas, or Minnesota, so in other words between 13-18. I don’t see him falling any further. My guess right now is on Philly because they’ll need guard depth assuming Lou Williams is gone, and potentially Jodie Meeks as well.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

"Plus that OSU game was a travesty he was in foul trouble the whole game on touch calls, couldn’t get into a rhythym. Look at previous 5 or 6 games if you are going to base off a small sample size, ended the year 13-22 from 3 or something ridiculous for somebody who is supposedly not a good shooter."

It was one good shooting game and you simply surrounded it with an otherwise quiet 2-3 game from three to make it appear to be something more than one good game. This is a bit like Tyler Honeycutt last year. He shot lights out in a monster game against Kansas, but that doesn’t change the existence of the rest of two years of not really being much of a shooter. As a freshman, he was a 31.9 percent shooter from three. If you take out the Cincy game, he was 33.0 percent this year. I think that speaks far more to what he is as a shooter than one great shooting game. Brandon Jennings has had a 21-36 (7-8 from three) game. Stephen Jackson went 6-7 in a playoff game from 3. Serge Ibaka and Joakim Noah each had a game in these playoffs where they hit multiple mid-range jumpers. None of those individual games change how those players are viewed as shooters.

 

[FUNKYBUNCHParticipant]

 Waiters shot up in mocks because of the "promise" rumors. You answered your own question- hype. He is a baller, I would bet he will be a good player at the next level, but ultimately he has been switched from that 15-20 range to the 6-14 range because of the rumors. This is a deep draft, especially at the 2, but some team really likes Waiters.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

You have always been a Waiters critic (though I have no issue with it). Just wondering where you would rate him as a draft prospect and amongst his position in this draft. He shot a higher percentage from 3 than Bradley Beal or Jeremy Lamb (albeit in fewer attempts), did you feel like he lacked a mid range game? I noticed you are high on Austin Rivers and low on Dion Waiters, figure you always have solid reasoning behind why that is, so just wondered if you would give a breakdown. 

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

"With that said, I think Waiters could go to Phoenix, Houston, Phily, Dallas, or Minnesota, so in other words between 13-18. I don’t see him falling any further. My guess right now is on Philly because they’ll need guard depth assuming Lou Williams is gone, and potentially Jodie Meeks as well."

If he goes quiet for the next three weeks, why could it not be a team like Memphis or Chicago that made the promise? From the perspective of Waiters’ representation, if he gets a promise from Memphis or Chicago, he can go to a competitive team that values him highly and will probably need someone to step in for FAs (Mayo, CJ Watson). If some team picking higher than them wants to grab him, he gets more slotted money while having the good fortune of being protected from a predraft process where he could possibly having bad shooting performance or interview that has results in a team losing interest. I’m not saying that is the case, but it seems as possible as any other option.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

"You have always been a Waiters critic (though I have no issue with it). Just wondering where you would rate him as a draft prospect and amongst his position in this draft. He shot a higher percentage from 3 than Bradley Beal or Jeremy Lamb (albeit in fewer attempts), did you feel like he lacked a mid range game? I noticed you are high on Austin Rivers and low on Dion Waiters, figure you always have solid reasoning behind why that is, so just wondered if you would give a breakdown."

Rivers is a great scorer. He can score off the catch, predesigned sets, or isolations. He knows how to get his shot off. If I am drafting a shooting guard to score, and if I am looking at Charlotte, Washington, and the like he is the guy I would want above all others. He isn’t getting drafted to rebound or block shots, so I don’t really care about those numbers or his standing reach. He is a scorer who teams who can’t put the ball in the basket should value much more highly than it appears they do.  Beal wasn’t quite as impressive. I just didn’t see a Ray Allen shooter or a particularly explosive scorer off the dribble. Jeremy Lamb is a different style scorer as he will like Barnes as someone who will take what comes his way as opposed to forcing or demanding things. It isn’t a bad thing, but you can get lost on a bad team that way. Doron Lamb might be the best shooter of the bunch, and I also tend to like him more than Waiters or Lillard. Other than looking much smaller than everyone else (though he measured out well), it is hard to find a ton of fault in Doron Lamb’s game. My feeling on Waiters is that if he is someone who has to get near the rim to score and doesn’t get to the line a ton, then why would should I value him so much more than a bigger Wroten, someone with more point skills (though still turnover prone) and shooting ability in Tyshawn Taylor, or someone who is quite similar in style, size, and athleticism in Jared Cunningham.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

My feeling on Waiters is that if he is someone who has to get near the rim to score and doesn’t get to the line a ton, then why would should I value him so much more than a bigger Wroten, someone with more point skills (though still turnover prone) and shooting ability in Tyshawn Taylor, or someone who is quite similar in style, size, and athleticism in Jared Cunningham.

Well, is Waiters not a great deal stronger than all of those players? Just think that is something that has maybe sold people on him. When you combine strength with Waiters type of athleticism, this seems like a pretty strong quality. Yes, Tony Wroten is longer, he is a great passer, but do his shooting/decision making not scare the life out of you? Both are very worrisome to me, much more so than what Waiters has shown. Tony again might be better off of the dribble, but I believe Waiters has shown much more versatility, plus a chance to capitalize at his attempts from the line.

Tyshawn is another guy who turns the ball over much more often than Waiters, albeit showed a tad more range. The thing is, Tyshawn is a twig. Cunningham as well, though he is at least a super athlete. Just have a feeling that Waiters would have eaten the Pac-12 alive even more so than Wroten or Cunningham. These guys are about 30-40 pounds lighter than Waiters. They may be a tad quicker, but I think the strength goes in Waiters favor much more so. Just my thought on this whole equation over these prospects.

Doron Lamb is a guy I also think people should be higher on. He was a tremendous shooter and when Kentucky needed a basket, he was as good a go-to guy as anyone. Still, Waiters has those 20 pounds on him and was better at shooting inside three point range. He also got to the line more often and I am fairly sure is a more explosive athlete (who knows what testing says, but I feel Waiters probably is the better of the two). Waiters just seems to have more of an overall offensive accumen, even if Lamb is the more pure shooter.

[JoeWolf1]

 He reminds me of Vinnie "The Microwave" Johnson.

I think he has the makeup as a great 6th man, and for a scorer, he does have defensive potential, but if you draft him too high (Seatte drafted Johnson at 7) you’re probably going to be disappointed because he’s more of a complimentary player than a building block ; however, if he goes to a team that has some key starters, he could be a great team fit for a very long time…like Johnson did when he found a role in Detroit and became a two time NBA champ.

 

[laarethekingsParticipant]

 I look at Waiters flying up drafts just like Weskbrook did a few years ago… Remember Westbrook was the 6th. Man on Ucla when he came out

[bloodshyParticipant]

Per Colangelo, Waiter’s agent cancelled a workout with the Raptors.  Colangelo stated that Waiter’s agent had made a deal with another team.  Isn’t that the current scoop?

[juslistinParticipant]

If you watch Syracuse basketball you knew who the best player on the team was, and that was Dion Waiters. His ability to create his own shot, get to the line, and shoot in traffic is what sets him apart from all those other players mentioned above that also play SG. Those other players can probably do most of the things I just mentioned but Waiters can do them all and do them well. If you watch the strength that he displays on his drives and ability to take contact and finish, you can see how that will translate in the NBA? Yes his shooting touch was streaky at times, but when it mattered, he hit his shot. He does have a little DWade in him, and out of all the players in the draft, I believe he has one of the highest ceilings. Behind Anthony Davis, I see him as the 2nd guy who can become something more than a starter, but a star. Another guy I categorize in that category is Perry Jones III. These three players with their physical stature and skills can be molded into stars.

[Sewok15Participant]

I have been saying this since March that he just looks like an NBA player when you watch him. He thrives in pick and roll and has a very consistent long range shot. I am guessing that his defense is what is helping his climb of the draft boards. He did not get a chance to show much of his man to man defensive skill at Syracause since they live in a 2-3 zone.

 

I am guessing that the Sixers told him they are going to take him at 15 if he is around. They need scoring help and he is the best immediate upgrade available at the guard position. He is also from Philly so I would imagine he shut down his workouts at that point and if someone takes him before then great.

[kobyzParticipant]

Waiters has that nice classic swagger, he play old school style of basketball, strong player and skilled with the ball, kinda remind me James Harden without the passing skills.

[joecheck88Participant]

 He reminds me of DWade scoring the basketball. He doesn’t remind me of DWade in any other way. But scoring he is talented. Does the rest of his game catch up to his scoring? Idk but he may not be a starter if all he can do is score. I do like Rivers better as a scorer but he has the same questions for the rest of his game. Neal and Lamb are going to be low volume scorers in my mind. More efficient but not the explosive scorers of Waiters and Rivers. Doron Lamb is being slept on IMO. I think he is right there with all the other Sgs. I have him at 18 to Minny. All in all most of these guys are one dimensional with the exception of Beal who I think is a step behind all of them scoring wise. If you want a guy that can get you 20 plus every night then go Rivers or Waiters. If you want shooters that will move off the ball and spread the floor go Beal or Lamb(both). 

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

“Well, is Waiters not a great deal stronger than all of those players? Just think that is something that has maybe sold people on him. When you combine strength with Waiters type of athleticism, this seems like a pretty strong quality. Yes, Tony Wroten is longer, he is a great passer, but do his shooting/decision making not scare the life out of you? Both are very worrisome to me, much more so than what Waiters has shown. Tony again might be better off of the dribble, but I believe Waiters has shown much more versatility, plus a chance to capitalize at his attempts from the line.

Tyshawn is another guy who turns the ball over much more often than Waiters, albeit showed a tad more range. The thing is, Tyshawn is a twig. Cunningham as well, though he is at least a super athlete. Just have a feeling that Waiters would have eaten the Pac-12 alive even more so than Wroten or Cunningham. These guys are about 30-40 pounds lighter than Waiters. They may be a tad quicker, but I think the strength goes in Waiters favor much more so. Just my thought on this whole equation over these prospects.”

Weight is always nice, but stronger to what end? Cunningham and Wroten each averaged 7.5 free throw attempts per game. Tyshawn Taylor took 5.1, and because he was a much better shooter than anyone else in this little group wasn’t in the paint as much. Waiters averaged 3.2 with a two season high number of 8 attempts. Even as a function of minutes or number of shots they attempted, his rate is lower than that of Cunningham and Wroten. Plus, even at the lower percentage, Wroten was still making more free throws per game. If strength is valued because of a player’s ability to battle through bumps and contact, then shouldn’t Waiters have been getting to the line more at Syracuse? For all the people who want to compare him to Wade, you have to live at the line to be Dwyane Wade. Just look back at Wade’s career: 4.5 as a freshman, 7.5 per as a sophomore, 5.1 as a rookie, then 9.9, 10.7, 10.5, 9.2, 9.8, 9.1, 8.6, and 6.1. The only guy who keeps Dwyane Wade from getting to the line is LeBron and that is because he is the one guy who does it better. 3.2 per game isn’t living there. I am not trying to make the argument Waiters is a bum, AND I AM NOT SAYING THAT but if you don’t have great range, aren’t a phenomenal mid-range player, don’t live on the free throw line, aren’t superbly sized for the position, and on top of that is not exactly a defensive ace, then what makes him a guy who a bad team should want to have as a major cog in their rebuilding?

As for Wroten, I am concerned about all his flaws too, but from a value perspective you can live with the risks and flaws where he is projected. He is obviously a work-in-progress, but he will be going in a range where his initial burden isn’t going to be that big.

“Doron Lamb is a guy I also think people should be higher on. He was a tremendous shooter and when Kentucky needed a basket, he was as good a go-to guy as anyone. Still, Waiters has those 20 pounds on him and was better at shooting inside three point range”

Not really. Doron Lamb wasn’t the guy who was getting the cheapies on those run outs, but in the half court he was effective inside the arc as well as out. By the way, Lamb also attempted more free throws on average than Waiters on the same number of shot attempts per game

“If you watch Syracuse basketball you knew who the best player on the team was, and that was Dion Waiters.

Good for Dion Waiters. Jared Sullinger was the best player on Ohio State, Draymond Green was the best player on Michigan State, Jae Crowder was the best player on Marquette, Marcus Denmon was the best player on Missouri… that means what now?

“His ability to create his own shot, get to the line, and shoot in traffic is what sets him apart from all those other players mentioned above that also play SG”

He attempted 3.2 times per game, less than everyone else I have mentioned.

[juslistinParticipant]

Are you telling me that Jared Cunningham a guy who for the past 3 years has averaged more turnovers than assist for a GUARD is a better prospect or player then Dion Waiters? Cunningham this past year averaged 2.8 assist, while averaging 2.8 turnovers. His freshmen year he averaged .9 assist a game and turned the ball over 2.3 times, as in his sophmore year he averaged 2.1 assist to his 2.5 turnovers.  He averaged more turnovers in his career at OSU then assist and this is a Guard you’re talking about? Waiters on the other hand with his aggressive driving ability at least averaged only a  2 to 1 ratio in assist to turnover in limited action. Yes Cunningham got to the line more then Waiters while playing more minutes, but shooting a relatively similar percentage at the line as Waiters, Cunninghams .737% as oppose to Waiters .729% makes him better? That’s .08% better, if that’s what seperates them then no is the answer to him being better or even equal.

Now let’s look at Tony Wroten, he falls into the same category as Jared Cunningham, they don’t take care of the ball. Wroten averaged 3.8 turnovers while averaging 3.7 assist, and he’s projected as a Point Guard perhaps Shooting Guard? With this erratic play are you really going to believe he’s on the same level as Waiters. Wroten like Cunningham also averaged 7.5 free throws a game, but shot an uwful .583% at the line. How are you going use the fact that Wroten made more free throws then Waiters as a valid point when the guy hit barely half of them. Shaquille O’Neal was a better free throw shooter in college in his prestigeous Sophmore Year of college hitting .639% from the line.   

They can all get to the line yes, but players like Waiters can get to the line, hit his free throws and not turnover the ball as much while in the act of doing it.

[JrbenzCuse23]

It literally hurts my head trying to read BTPH posts. Any semblence of grammer, punctuation, or spacing would be greatly appreciated.

I think a lot of you on here are forgetting that he is considered one of, if not the top, on ball guard defenders in this draft. He may also have the best guard mid range game. A lot of people commenting on this obviously didn’t watch him play much if they think he is this one dimensional player. Also a very underrated passer off penetration. His range has improved immensely and there is no reason to think it will not continue to do so.

His shot, while unorthodox looking, is very effective and allows him to get off an array of jumpshots without getting blocked due to the high and somewhat pushed back location of the ball. Those who did not watch every Syracuse game might think otherwise but I can not think of one game this year where he was not the best player on the court.  

[JrbenzCuse23]

Mikey V came to play on this post just wanna hit him with a shout out

[JrbenzCuse23]

Back to r377 original post, most of you had him 15-20 because that is what most mock drafts had him. No offense, but I’ve said it plenty of times before, its not like any of your mocks are based on your own opinions of a player you just copy and paste what other people say lol not that there is anything wrong with that.

[JoeWolf1]

 ^A mock is meant to try to predict the actual draft, it’s not a Top 60 list of each individual poster.  You hammered in to my mock because I had him in the 20’s last week, but that wasn’t because I thought he was the 27th best player.  It was because of his stock at the time, I moved him up because his stock went up.

A mock is tracking each player’s stock, rumors and placing them to a team that is condusive with the information one has gathered.  An opinion is what is said in posts and discussions.  Moving a player up and down in a mock draft is not a changing opinion.  Going back on what you said in previous posts is a changing opinon.  

I think Andre Drummond is not one of the best 5 players in this draft as I have stated multiple times, but he’s in my top 5 because that is where I predict he will go based off the information I’ve gathered.  The fact Dion Waiters has moved up in my mock is not because of a changing opinion. My opinion is the same, and one I’ve posted in this forum, his stock has gone up so he’s been moved accordingly.

Every fan of a certain team has a better grasp on players they watch play 20-30 times every year.  Everyone who doesn’t watch Dion Waiters as much as you isn’t an idiot with a changing opinon, just as someone who doesn’t watch Thomas Robinson as much as I isn’t one.  Great, you saw his talent as you watched him play more than us, but that doesn’t mean we are moron’s who just parrot what we hear.  A mock draft is not a big board and it’s meant to try to predict what is actually going to happen, not make a profound statement as to what you think of each player.  That is where forum topics and discussions come into play.

[PulseGlazerParticipant]

I’m slowly but surely turning into a fan of this kid.  The more I watch of him, the more I see a poor-man’s Wade with more of a jumper and less crazy athletecism.  He goes at it on D, attacks the rim and gets to the line.  What’s not to like? 

[JrbenzCuse23]

The dude said "we had him 15-20, why is he shooting up the mocks?" like he was looking for basketball reasons to change his and many of your collective opinions. Like, I had him 15-20 because thats what I read, now he is higher than that but I don’t get why, even though I never really knew in the first place. Its just stupid because everybody think they experts and they will bash someone non stop if you go against what is considered the normal mock. And then as soon as that player they been bashing the whole time stock rises they change it in they mocks. Its just so immature the way the people on this site work I know you’re going to defend it obv.

[JrbenzCuse23]

For example if for some unknown reason Anthony Davis was in the 20’s all year in mock drafts, despite being the exact same player, I would get killed if I came on here saying he was the best player. Even if all else was equal. Because thats just the way it works on here the actually basketball reasons behind peoples comments are minimal they just regurgitate what they read somewhere. Get a brain follow the game think for yourselves it will be a lot more refreshing on here! Don’t be afraid to be fans!

[JrbenzCuse23]

For Christ sakes the guy was quoting his shooting numbers from his final game and his scoring numbers off the bench like they were relevant its just so ignorant.

[JoeWolf1]

 There are pros and cons to this site.  Making a list is the worst thing you can do on this forum.  That includes mock drafts, I’ve seen some really well thought out mock drafts posted to critique get like a -5 and the same thing goes for prospect lists.  You can have explainations and everything, but if people don’t agree, they’ll often just hit the -1 and provide no explaination. That’s just kind of the way this site is, it’s not perfect, everyone who comes here isn’t a genious but a lot of people really know what they are talking about.

The thing about mock drafts, and such is that we don’t know for certain and anyone who can say they do is a liar. I’m not trying to start a fight with you, I just know you’ve come at me for a "changing opinion" when I was merely tracking players on my mock draft.  I don’t know where the poster was going for sure, but I doubt he was looking for "Dion Waiters became a better shooter this week".  We all live in different parts of the country and a don’t get to see every regions basketball as much as people who live there.  I can’t say for certain where he was coming from, but it seems far fetched that he was thinking Dion Waiters became a better ball player this week.  He probably was just wanting to know more about him, if he’s quoting his last game box score, he probably hasn’t seen him play much and wants some input.

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

You, of all people, should take the fact that he played in the Big East as compared to the other players being in the Pac-12 into consideration. I love the Pac-12, but that is a pretty large competition gap, which I know you tend to focus upon whenever it fits your argument (not saying I do not do the same thing for certain stats or things that fit my argument, but this was just a massive leave out).

Yes, his weight does not necessarily make him stronger, but he is stronger. Doron Lamb also played more minutes per game and while his team had more fire power, I do not think he has the same scoring ability as Waiters. Syracuse was a very balanced team as well, when they needed scoring they went to Waiters and sometimes Scoop Jardine.

Dion got better as the season wore on and I truly think he can be a valuable scoring guard. Not a star, I am not even sure if I feel he is a top 10 pick, but he can play a role I feel even more so than a Wroten, Cunningham or Doron Lamb. I know Wade lives at the line, he is not Wade. I feel that comparison is more on build, he has the ability to physically challenge opponents. He is a really good athlete for his size and I think he can be just as much a rebuilding cog as any of the players listed above. I think he will be able to get to the basket at the NBA level better than the other players listed above as well, which is what makes him attractive to some teams. I am not calling him Dwyane Wade, I am just stating why teams seem to be high on him.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

"You, of all people, should take the fact that he played in the Big East as compared to the other players being in the Pac-12 into consideration."

I do. Washington did play against SLU, Nevada, Marquette, and Duke in addition to the Pac schedule. Jared Cunningham had his best game against Texas, and has a three-year track record of being someone who attacks the rim and gets to the line against anyone who appeared on the schedule.

"I am just stating why teams seem to be high on him."

Teams can feel however they feel. If you ask me why I feel the way I do, I am going to explain why I feel the way I do which is all I did. All I have pointed out is that he had one really good shooting game, not this supposed progression as the year went on. The guy made more than one-sixth of his threes for the season in one game. Of course, it is going to skew the numbers. I then pointed out that while you can point to his strength he didn’t use it in college to get to the line like other players with erratic/streaky shots did. What is the problem?

 

[r377Participant]

Waiters – BUST

[Author]

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