Here is a great stat line from deron williams in a win against gottigen in eurochallenge 105-94
50 points, 10/13 2-points, 7/10 3-points, 9/11 FT, 3 rbds, 1 ass, 2 to et 9 fouls against him 36 minutes.
One of the best performance in europe over the last 10 years.
Who would have thought Deron Williams is the next Drazen Petrovic?
Deron Williams is in NBA game shape right now... Which is bad news for European competition.
only 1 assist??? come on deron youre a point guard! lol
Haha one assist and the "best PG in the NBA"... like hell he is.
So you are saying he should be passing more to the other guys on his team while he is shooting 75% with a bunch of those shots coming from 3 point range? I think he is looking like the best option on offense that night so how can you be getting down on him? You think there are a bunch of guys shooting 80 or 90% that night?
In European basketball. Seems like he is averaging quite a few (6.8 assists per game, which is a lot for over there). But, yeah, what TallmanNYC said.
Never said he wasn't a great scorer, but I disagree that he's this amazing playmaker, and his assist numbers were inflated by the Jazz's system.
Bear in mind I'm not basing this opinion off just this game, that would be ridiculous, and upon watching the video it seems like they are playing him at the SG position over there a bit more.
Yes, the fact that he averaged something like 13.8 apg for the Nets last year is definitely a clue that his assists were inflated by the Jazz System...
Seriously, how can you possibly argue that he isn't an amazing playmaker having ever watched him play. His court vision is some of the best in the NBA, I think he's at least Rondo's equal in that aspect and not very far behind Chris Paul. The guy also runs the pick and role as well as anyone else in the NBA.
Okay, so I'm slightly exaggerating, I'll admit that my estimation of his abilities might be discoloured by my dislike of him, and I'll withdraw my criticism until I get a bigger sample size with the Nets to make my case.
That said, I disagree that he equals Rondo in terms of playmaking.
Are you kidding me the jazz system has been helping Deron? Its been hindering him his entire career, or holding him back is more like it. The man has never played with anyone you would condsider athletic or skilled on the perimeter. If he didnt have the shooters that he had he would have been in trouble. As soon as he went to the nets and was up and running with some run jump athletes he looked so much better. That was with his messed up wrist too, his cross is def the best in the league to set him up to score or to make the assist, he's one of the best pg shooters in the league and his post game lets him bully other pgs and allow him to average nearly 7 free throws a game for someone who still averages 10+ plus dimes. I think the next year with the nets you will see a stellar season from him finally being unleashed for Utahs system and put into a game were he's in control of the car.
Quick stat reference. In Euro ball you only get an assist if the scorer you passed to has scored within 1 dribble or less.. NBA is 3 dribbles or less...
Too bad all 50 points meant nothing. That team can't even sell out their pathetic small stadium. What is that 4,000 seats?? Eagles training camp gets a bigger crowd than European basketball.
Deron Williams is a fantastic playmaker. He may not be the defender Rondo is, but he is better than him at almost everything offensively and is an absolutely fantastic play maker. I think their is little to no proof that Rondo is a better passer and his better court vision than Williams. One thing I can be assured of is that teams would more than likely not ask him to play scoring guard.
I also feel that if Rondo were in European basketball, he would more than likely be averaging just about the same number of assists on the reg as Deron Williams has been. Also, if Williams were on the Jazz, would he not have just as many assists as Rajon Rondo with all of their offensive weapons? To judge him off of one (awesome) game by saying he is "not the best PG in the NBA" because he had one assist seems like a pretty poor basis for an argument.
D-Will may not be as good as Chris Paul or even Derrick Rose, but he is in the discussion. He usually kills Paul when they play each other and he has had 4 straight years averaging double digit assists. If you are saying Rondo would be a lock to do the same in Utah, I believe you are kidding yourself. If he were doing this and losing, or shooting a poor percentage, I might see a point in griping. But, if he is helping his team win by dominating the competition, than I find it hard to see a problem with his stat line.
If you read up I did say I wasn't judging him off that one game, it just reinforced my opinion of him.
I honestly don't think Deron Williams would do as well in Boston given his superstar mentality (assuming that's what you meant), I really do think Rondo is the perfect PG for that team, he runs the offense perfectly for them, harrasses the PG defensively and knows he doesn't need to score to be effective.
Also, when I said he isn't the best PG in the NBA I wasn't saying he was worse than Rondo, because he isn't for the reasons you mentioned, I am just firmly of the belief that Chris Paul is the best.
Looking at the video clip, all the shots he made were the right decisions, but it doesn't show the misses, and for all we know he was passing up open teammates on occasion which could explain why Besiktas was more or less tied for much of the game.
PG position is the hardest to argue about in my opinion, so many variables to consider and there are so many different ways it can be played.
But as I said, I'll concede that I was too harsh thus far.
He is saying that Rondo would not have been as good in Utah as Williams was. Rondo is only great because of who he plays with.
one sick performance for D-Will... I think considering how Euroball is team-oriented, it is definitely a feat for some gusy to score that much points there... pretty cool
I think Williams would be unbelievable in Boston. Obviously there are no guarantees, but I think he would be able to run that offense to perfection, just like Rondo does, and defenders wouldn't be able to play off him, which I think would open up even more scoring opportunities for the big three.
I don't think Williams handled the situation with Sloan well at the end, but also don't think he's really displayed a superstar mentality throughout his career either. He has always been the best player on his team, and their best scoring option, but he has made players like Carlos Boozer and Paul Milsap significantly better.
D Will is a great shooter, with great size and passing ability and he is a top 5 Pg in the NBA, but he isn't as good a passer as Rondo, that statement is just wrong, Rondo is a pure passing point guard, there was no one better than him at passing the Ball last season, and when Williams left Utah there was a clear drop off in assist and overall production, then there is the Question of "Did he really help New Jersey win while he was there", he did in Utah and I have belief he will in Brooklyn but he certainly didn't help the NJ Nets win many more games, he got the Jazz a top 3 pick and Derrick Favors, thats it...Now I know people will rave about his 50 point Euro League statline but a Pg with 1 assist is a bit of a cause for concern in any Game or situation, if a Pg is scoring like that why aren't there more assist to gon along with the 50 points??? Rondo has proven to be a Great Post season player and Has uped his scoring in the playoffs, and averaged a Triple Double throughout a series(something CP3 or D Will have NOT done, as well as win a RING...)To end or try to put facts into the Debate of who's a better PG, well that can be answered by looking at the Hardware not the Statlines...Rondo has the PG stats and Hardware to put him at the top...Cp3 and D Will have the stats but no wins in the Playoffs and certainly No Rings to show off...I know Jason Kidd loves having a Ring to add to his great carreer stats, much can be said about Rondo(who I consider the New Jason Kidd, a Triple Double Pg with a suspect shot) Paul and Williams have all the abilty in the world and can certainly win a Ring(maybe, history tells us Pg's are not the end all be all for winning a Ring) Recently their has only been One Hall of Fame Pg to get a Rings(His name is Jason Kidd and he did it at the end of his carrer with Dirk and Jason Terry carrying the load, before that the last HOF Pg's to win a Ring was Isiah Thomas and Magic Johnson)
If I were to rank Pg's in terms of talent of CXourse Paul and Williams would be at the top of the List, but I can't see either guy winning a Ring unless they change teams and play their respective roles perfectly, Paul needs a Bad Boy's Pistons and Williams needs a Franchise Pf and the cast of The Jersey Shore to fist pump their way through the Finals...Right now I wouldn't put any Pure Pg over Rondo...He is not the most prettiest player to watch and he has flaws in his game like his jump shot and playing with HOF's(seems like that's always people's biggest knock on him)...But Rondo has won a Ring and done it playing the PG position perfectly...when people argue over who's better they keep forgeting the point is to be the best and win( not put up huge stats and look pretty doing it) I know Williams and Paul have their supporters but they're alwaqys wrong in this debate, because the highest respect one player can get is Lifting that Hardware and proclaiming his team the Best in the World...Rondo is the only PG in the top 5 debate with a Ring and he'll be the only one with One for years...Paul isn't winning a Ring in New Orleans or New York(fact) Williams isn't winning a Ring in New Jersey or Brooklyn(fact) Rose can't win a ring in Chicago with the current roster(fact, Boozer and Deng are his 2nd and 3rd option end of story) Westbrook isn't winning a Ring in OKC(fact, being beaten by that Old Mavericks Team was a clear indicator that the OKC Thunder was overhyped) so there is your top 5 Pg debate right there, Rondo has a Championship and the Stats(Assist, Rebounds and Steals) to put him at the top of the list...someone tell me how Paul,Williams,Rose and Westbrook are better POINT GUARDS than Rondo...Talent wise of course those guys are Better(scorers, slashers, ticket salesmen) but that's like saying Iverson was better than Stockton(AI was my favorite player of all time and he's not better than Stockton was and It's a harse FACT)...
Rajon Rondo wouldn't have a ring if it wasn't for Paul Pierce, Kevin Garnett and Ray Allen. I vividly remember Rondo sitting on the bench for Eddie House because the Lakers weren't even defending him.
And everybody knows Deron Williams had a rough season last year. The drama in Utah has already been well documented. Teammates traded or not re-signed. Unhappy. Coach fired. Turbulence with the front office. He was traded. Not to mention he struggled with a wrist injury most of the season.
Look, Rondo is a very good player (especially when he's motivated and not having an attitude), but to ignore who he's been playing with is silly. He's playing with three HOF players. You put Chris Paul or Deron Williams on the Celtics, and they're a better team... Period. I mean, teams don't even defend Rondo. And he's awful from the line. How can an elite point guard be this terrible shooting at all facets of basketball? I mean, how can you trust your point guard if he can't make free-throws at the end of games?
There's no question that Williams is a better point guard than Rondo. Williams is a superstar player. Until Rondo learns to shoot the ball, he's no better than an elite point guard or very good NBA player.
Dirk and Jason Kidd are HOF's too, are you going to take away the fact they are great players and CHAMPIONS...Magic, Isiah and John Stockton played with HOF's too are they not Elite Pg's that won CHAMPIONSHIPS??? What is your arguement for Williams or Paul??? Is it the Hypothetical "If Williams or Paul played for Boston they'd be just has good arguement???"- guess what that doesn't mean shyt, would you have Bet Your Life that if Wade and Lebron were to team up they'd win a RING year one??? Yes you would have bet your Life, and guess what??? They didn't win any hypothetical Championship did they??? Rondo is a great passer and defender, he's what you would call an Elite passer and defender, Paul and Williams are not Elite defenders and would without a doubt not have meshed well with The Celtics...Ray Allen needed the ball as well as Paul and KG, and I doubt CP3 and D Will were going to be Pass First Pg's thus The Celtics likely not winning That Championship against The Lakers...Williams passing is overated and Paul's defense is as well, Paul is a defensive liabilty and that cant be overlooked no matter how "Chippy" he is...Steals don't equal playing good defense,Ask Allen Iverson who was always at the top of the league in SPG but was one of the biggest defensive liabilities in The NBA...give me something stronger than The Supporting Cast argument everyone throws out there in defense of Paul and Williams...When Paul joins Amare and Melo in New York and STILL doesn't bring hom,e a Ring that argument will be put to bed, or When D Will and Dwight unite in Brooklyn, people will choke on those words...Rondo played pitch perfect Pg and WON a God Damm Championship, he also played liked a Giant and Dominated the Bulls with Derrick Rose defending Him...How is he NOT the best PG in The NBA??? Jason Kidd was the Best point guard and his offense was as much malligned as Rondo's is now...
Jordan wouldn't have 6 if it wasnt for Pippen, Kukoc and Rodman...Isiah needed Dumars and Kobe was a shell of his HOF self without Shaq...See how you logic is flawed...The Celtics would not have won a Ring without Rondo(fact???) well how can you prove your Point??? Would Jerry West have won a Ring without Wilt, Dr J without Bobby Jones and Moses Malone, what Dirk, does he beat the Heat without Terry and Kidd>??? To many variables to count in to believe in your busted Logic Tezo...
What? As IndianaBasketball stated above, he does have hardware, but he was not even close to as integral a part of the team when he won the ring. Also, while his post-season performance was commendable, defenders constantly go WAY under picks set when covering Rondo. This is a clear indication they have no respect for his jump shot. It is honestly embarassing to watch at times. If you did the same to D-Will, than you will get destroyed.
How is Rajon Rondo a much better distributor than Deron Williams? Rondo had his best season ever passing the ball, but Williams was as solid as always. Plus, I think their is little to say that Deron Williams does not know how to control a team every bit as well as Rondo. He actually finished right behind him in assists per game last season. If the two switched scenarios, the Celtics might not be the same, but I think their is a distinct possibility they would be better with a PG who is much more complete on offense and not exactly a defensive slouch.
When Rajon Rondo won his ring, he did so averaging 10.6 ppg and 6.6 apg in the play-offs (with a whopping 40.7% FG). To say he played the PG position to perfection would not be entirely true. That same season the Celtics won, Deron Williams averaged 21.6 and 10 through two rounds of the play-offs (on a much less talented team). As a matter of fact, D-Will has the 6th best regular season assist average in NBA history (9.2) and the 4th best in play-off history (9.6). Rondo had not had double digit assists until this year, and I think we can agree that it would be much easier to get an assist on Boston as opposed to Utah or New Jersey.
Rondo is obviously a fantastic PG and his overall statistics are fantastic. D-Will is not a guy who would average a triple double over a play-off series, so Rondo beats him in that facet. But, he is a guy who lead a team to a conference final and lead teams past the first round without having three future Hall of Famers. Since Rondo has become a triple double machine, have the Celtics won a ring? I realize Rondo played incredibly well in the play-offs this past season, but did he not only put up 5 assists in Game 4 against the Heat and than 3 assists in Game 5. I know he hurt his elbow, but should a PG not be averaging more assists?
Well, I do not judge his ability as a pure PG off of those two games, but I do judge Deron Williams ability off of a track record of consistency and being an overall floor general. He may not be Chris Paul, but he is the next best thing if you are talking "pure PG's" that a team could have. Rondo has a ring, but if the Celtics had D-Will in 2008, do they not win the ring as well? I think their are signs that they might have had an easier time. I also think that they maybe could have won more than one. We do not know this, but I do know that if I have to choose between one of those two PG's to run my team, it is easily Deron Williams, even if he only puts up 50 points and one assist and WE WIN THE F#CKING GAME. Lol, I just cannot believe this was even an issue. As far as his missing 6 shots out of 23, I too am pained by not knowing whether these were solid basketball attempts (think you can catch the hint of sarcasm and I am saying it more in a manner of joking around rather than rage about how ridiculous of an argument his having one assist in this game is about his "pure PG abilities". Or maybe both).
Also, Scarecrow, while there may be no indicator that the Celtics could have won a ring without Rondo, you have to atleast admit that it is a fledgling possibility they could have won in 2008 if you switched D-Will and Rondo. In that way, I do not find Indiana's logic "completely busted" at all. If even you admit that Williams is a better all-around player, and that there are better all-around players at the position than Rondo, than it could certainly be possible that they also work incredibly well with their given teammates. This is not an absolute certainty, but I do not believe that no one working as well with the Celtics as Rondo is either.
Where in those points do you guys prove me wrong, yes D Will has had great seasons in UTAH, but where the hell was he in NEW JERSEY(we could care less about him because he was on a POOR team and putting up worthless Stats) Yes D Will lead his team to the WCF's and was then destroyed by the Team Rondo beat on his way to a Ring...The all time Assist rankings are Great, but they are flawed as well...Stats taken over the course of a few years are completely unfounded and circumstancial..not discrediting Williams prowess as a Passer but c'mon lets see it for a few more seasons(Away from HOF Coach and Pg friendly system) What I can go on is the way Williams ended his season and the Way Rondo ended His...Yes RR got hurt and as we speak Deron is destroying European(Inferior) competition but where is the proff Williams or Paul are Better PG's and WiLL Win a Ring Before Rondo(Who I think will win another Ring before Paul,Rose,Westbrook and Williams win 1!!!) Im a G damm Sixers fan...I hate The Celtics and most of all Paul Pierce and Rajon Rondo, but as a Fan and a Coach of youth basketball how can you say Paul and Williams are better Pg's???
Fact...Paul and Williams have become better scoring Threats than Passers...both have great offensive Games, Williams with his size and skills shooting the Ball from outside and using his strenght to get inside, Paul with ball handling ability and driving game...
Fact...Niether is a True Pg and has even sniffed the Championship Game...
Fact...Any Coach would be a fool to pick Paul or Williams over Rondo to play POINT GUARD...he is the true definition of the Words...he doesn't need 15 to 20 shots to help his team win games or CHAMPIONSHIPS...Rondo was the Only Hope the Celtics had to win a Ring this Year...they went as he went...where did the Hornets and Nets go last year, No where and fast in Deron's case...give me Rondo's passing and ability to Defend over the flash of Paul and Williams...
That is just preposterous. Williams and Paul both can do everything Rondo can do on the offensive end, and so much more. Rondo doesn't score the ball as much as those two because he can't, not because he is more of a pure point guard.
Rondo has never proven that he can run a team better than Williams or Paul either, as all three have run their respective offences to perfection. Williams and Paul are FORCED to put up points because they are by far the best offensive options on their teams.
I guarantee you that both could turn down their scoring and focus on distributing the ball if they were sorrounded by more scoring options. Both have consistently shown that they are phenomenal passers, systems aside. Finally, Williams put up MORE ASSISTS in New Jersey than he did in Utah, so the "Sloan's system made him seem like a pure point guard argument," doesn't really make much sense.
As for D Will under Jerry Sloan's system, I wouldn't say that it limited him, but rather showed off a different part of his skell set. In Utah for the first half of the season, he was getting 20 and 9. BUt when he went to NJ, he was getting 14-15 dimes a game. It'll be interesting how he'll do next season, considering he'll basically be calling all the shots.
And as for Rondo and Dwill comparisions, Rondo is a great distributor, but a very poor scorer. His shot is ugly, and toward the end of this past season, he was even having trouble passing it around. He needs to get a shot, so it will open up the middle, instead of having Rondo's man sag 10 feet off of him. And if he can work on getting to the rim as well, that could really be an epiphany for him.
DWill in my mind is the best Point in the League, even better than Rose. He can score at the rim cause he is explosive, has good enough athleticism, and has a very nice shot. The deal breaker between Rose and D Will is that as of last season, D Will could knock down the shot just as consitently, get to the rim very well, maybe not as well as Rose, but still very efectively, and D Will is a better defender, and distributer, however I believe Rose will overtake D Will, (or anyone else for that matter) rather soon, cause I know he is working on his game really hard, and if he can get that outside shot to fall with even more regularity, and he is only going to get more skilled as far as finishing at the rim goes, and although he maylose some athleticsim and speed even at this early stage in his career, I don't think that will affect his game that much, if anything it will encourage him to expand his game further.
And as a basketball fan that wants to see guys develop and get better, I hope that Rondo gets the Jason Kidd epiphany, meaning that he realizes that he must work on his outside shot, and eventually works on it and mails it down.
IF Rondo could shoot the ball, this would probably be a conversation. I mean, teams aren't even defending this guy. I was watching LAC vs Boston last season and watched him mouth "Oh sh*t" when he was put on the free-throw line during the closing seconds of the game. Of course he missed both free-throws. IF not for the excellence of and the attention that Pierce, KG and Allen get, Rondo would be covered up like an eskimo in a thick winter blanket.
I mean, Paul and Williams can CARRY the weight of a franchise on their backs. There aren't a lot of those guys in the NBA. They are a rare commodity. Rondo is good, but he's not in that class.
I like Rondo though... Love him actually. Just don't think he's in that class.