If I am choosing, who do I take(assuming D. Rose continues to pick up where he left off)? D. Rose is the freak athlete that is truly a pg. He has the killer instinct and has already added a regular season MVP to his resume. Kyrie is the closest thing I've seen to Isaiah thomas. He has the ability to put his team on his back offensively but it doesn't come at the detriment of the team like it sometimes does with...like say a Westbrook. I go back and forth with this...so who should I ultimately take??
I'd go with Irving. D rose is a beast don't get me wrong and has that mvp under his belt but imo Irving's game will age better than d rose. Also Kyrie's shot is a lot more reliable than rose. All in all Kyrie still has to prove he can lead a team to the playoffs but I like him over rosé going forward.
I feel you on the jump shot thing and he is sooooo ambidextrous. If he stays healthy though it will be interesting to see. D. Rose is so fast and freakish in the lane it is hard to choose. All your points are good ones!
I'm biased because he's my favorite player ever so I'm going with Rose.
This was heavily discussed on another thread. http://nbadraft.net/forum/coming-out-week-kyrie-irving
I will still post my thoughts....Derrick Rose was MVP two years ago. The Bulls were 50-16 last year and 62-20 the year before. They won over 75 % of their games over that span. They are playing 58% percent ball this year without Rose. The coaching and supporting cast is obviously better in Chicago than it is in Cleveland but Rose is still huge for them. The reason Rose is an MVP caliber player is because the pressure he puts on the defense. He is as relentless as any PG I have ever seen at getting into the paint. He is like Tony Parker with more explosion. The only thing that even makes this a question worth asking is Rose's knee. If he picks up where he left off like I expect he is better than Irving.
Cleveland is playing 31% ball since Kyrie entered the league. I know he has been hurt and has a poor supporting cast but they are cellar dwellers. Kyrie can play no doubt about it. He is possibly the best scoring PG in the league right now but he isn't Derrick Rose...not yet.
The 2008 Bulls were 33-49. They were 4 games from making the playoffs only because the East was soo bad (and still is). The only reason they were a "couple" games out was because Atlanta made the playoffs with 37 wins. The Charlotte Bobcats won 32 games that year so it wasn't like Chicago was any good. They weren't as bad as Cleveland after Lebron but they were still pretty poor.
If we are going to look at a PG who was in a situation similar to Irving it would be Chris Paul coming in as a rookie. They won 18 games before they got him. The next two years they won 38 and 39 games in a loaded western conference. By his 4th year they won 56 games which was one game behind the Lakers and even with the Spurs. Paul made his team better and they won...he didn't have tons of help. They had West in his prime scorning 20 a game, Peja scoring 16 and Chandler in the middle before he was an all star caliber center. They had no other back court scoring. They had an aging Bobby Jackson and Bonzi Wells and Mo Pete coming off the bench.
Kyrie is very young and clearly has all the talent in the world. The facts are he hasn't done much in the NBA outside of scoring on a bad team. He has looked great and I expect him to be in the conversation for best PG in the league down the road. He isn't in that conversation yet....Rose clearly is as his MVP award will show you. Parker and Paul are the best right now...until Kyrie takes his team to the playoffs and beyond he will just be a really good player on a bad team.
My bad. I don't get to be around the computer often so I am oblivious to other threads. I just post what's on my mind when I get the opportunity. If it isn't on the front page idk about it. I see all your points though. I will argue that he has shown more than just scoring on a bad team. He has taken some personal challenges and performed against all of the best of the best type players. Although you have no arguments from me about the fact that the post season is what separates them. I guess we have to let it play out...
I think it's unfair to take a look at records and whatnot because while Chris Paul had David West in his prime, Peja 2 years removed from averaging 24ppg, Tyson Chandler coming of age, they also had the right mix of veterans on that team. They had guys that knew how to win and helped mold Chris Paul into a better player.
Whereas Kyrie Irving doesn't have anybody to look up to on this Cavaliers team. They don't have savvy veterans (aside from the injured Varejao) that Kyrie Irving can learn from and can help take the load off of his team.
I mean, would Chris Paul have lead the Hornets to the playoffs if he had Tyler Zeller instead of Tyson Chandler, Tristan Thompson instead of David West and Alonzo Gee instead of Peja Stojakovic?
When Derrick Rose came into the league, he was already on a team that was vying for a playoff berth. Hell, they had a 2% chance of getting the first overall pick because they were already pretty good the previous season.
He walked into a situation where he had veterans like Hinrich, Salmons, Hughes, BMiller and talented guys like Gordon, Deng, Gooden, TThomas, Nocioni, and Noah.
I'm a huge CP3 and Rose fan but I think we're giving Kyrie Irving the short end of the stick here by comparing records.
I agree that NO and Chicage had more veteran talent than Cleveland does...pretty much every team in NBA history has more veteran talent than Cleveland had post LeBron. The point I am trying to make is that for Kyrie to take the next step from all-star to Superstar he has to start winning....whether he has veteran guys there or not if you don't win you aren't the best. You can certainly see he has the potential to be the best PG in the game but until he does it he can't be in that conversation other than as an afterthought.
Maybe it's because I'm biased but I tend to go with the guy who's game isn't built around athleticism but skill, because they end up lasting longer
That makes me think Irving's game will age better as well but Rose is only 24 himself and his jumpshot was still improving. If Rose comes back and has no knee issues and keeps improving his jumper I see him as the better player. Irving is very close and has incredible handles and skills...the separation at this point is mostly the winning factor. I can easily see Kyrie as the best PG in the game in 5 years but as of now he is only scratching the top 5.
Yeah Roses' jumpshot has improved a ton but he still has that hitch in it, I think after watching guys like Steve Francis flame out I am cautious about point guards like Westbrook and Rose
I can understand that and I see the similarities of those guys physically but mentally I think Rose and Westbrook are on another level. They both have a will to win that is rare. Rose seems to understand the game a lot better at this point in his career. Francis had a great 6 year run so we will see how these guys are in their late 20's into their 30's.
If Rose can come back with no signs of slowing down and is back to his MVP form, I'll take Derrick Rose over Kyrie Irving RIGHT NOW. Not sure 3 years from now though.
Something to notice here though is the simple fact that a 20-year-old is already in the conversation for best PG in the league. Not saying Irving is the best point guard but once you're in conversation with guys like Chris Paul, Tony Parker, and Derrick Rose, you know you're pretty damn good.
this kyrie love is going too far. how about wait till he makes playoffs first
nothing wrong with his fans speculating though. although it would be nice to see him in the play-offs, i personally dont like to use team achievements as a measuring tool for individual players. and between these two individuals, i'd take Rose. given that kyrie is using skills more than athletic abilities which i really like. and his jumper is much better than Derrick's, Rose will get the nod till Kyrie pays attention more to defense and that side of the court. thats what really separates these two guards to me.
If he comes back healthy I'm taking him over Irving. I just like the guy who was an MVP and is playoff tested.
This topic is understandable because Rose has been inactive for a while but at the same time its really pretty silly how quickly we forget how dominate D-Rose was at the pg position. He has never averaged fewer than 6 apg in his career while still averaging impressive ppg. It seems like the only player that can guard him in the playoffs is Lebron, who doesn't usually have to guard a pg but does against the bulls, while Rose is one of the best defensive pgs in the legue. I've seen Calderon put up good numbers on Irvinig (admittedly while Irving was a rookie) while covering Kyrie effectively. Everyone points out how well Kyrie shoots the ball (and his shot is superior to Rose's) but Rose is no slouch, especially in the clutch/playoffs, and was improving before the injury. So if Derrick Rose truly picks up where he left off then I take him without a second thought, that's not to say that Kyrie might eventually surpass him.
For the record d rose is my fav player. I started this thread with no bias. Rose clearly has played in more meaningful games but i just wanted to get other perspectives on this topic.
This is like comparing lebron to Durant.Lebron is clearly better but if you took the athleticism away everyone would say Durant. Irving is more skilled then rose as far as scoring but until Cross declines athletically he's got the edge and they both have assassin type pesrsonallities. Its like they hate losing more than they like winning. I love that about both of them. For the most part there both prone to injury so u gotta go on prior accomplishments and that's y I say I give the edge to drose.
Who I would take for the future: Irving no question
Who is the better player at the moment: Derrick Rose no question
Irving right now is loads of potential, but until he can prove it in the playoffs I think it'd be unfair to rank him above guys like CP3, Tony Parker, Rajon Rondo, Derrick Rose, and Russell Westbrook.
I have an inkling that Irving could possibly be one of the best playoff performers in the league because he seems to raise his game when he's met with a challenge (i.e. his performances in the 4th quarter) but until he does so we can only speculate.
Kyrie is a superstar, but don't start comparing a guy who won the MVP to someone who hasn't made the playoffs...
When healthy, Derrick Rose is a top ten player... Just outside of the top five. He's only 24 years old.
I guess it's out of sight, out of mind for a lot of you.
I'm sick of people talking about Winning as the be-all, end-all when it comes to comparing great players. If the question is, who is better?, then just look at that question. As soon as the conversation moves to comparing team records and playoff accomplishments, the conversation has moved to "which team is better?" That's not the question that was posed.
Winning has everything to do with the team, the chemistry, the veteran leadership and know-how, as well as having a supremely gifted talent, such as Rose or Irving. But, you can't have one great player and win in the NBA. I don't care what you want to say. Winning is a team accomplishment. Comparing two individuals should come down to their abilities.
I agree that Rose is clearly the better athlete, as he is one of the best PG athletes in NBA history. BUT, Irving isn't horrible. He can still jump, contort in the air, he's quick as hell with the ball, and he does have a burst when dribbling.
As for shooting, I'm taking Irving all day, every day. Clearly the better shooter, and he's 4 years younger, with years to keep getting better. Irving also has the ability to play huge late in games. On his short resume he's already proven to be a great end-game closer. The problem is Cleveland doesn't have that many games where he has that opportunity to be a closer because they're not close.
Rose is a good leader, but I think Irving is growing into a very good leader, and probably great leader. Rose is almost too quiet for a starting NBA PG. Irving talks on the court....a lot. Rose is almost too quiet due to his humble/shy demeanor.
When it comes to creating for themselves or others, breaking defenders down off the bounce, Rose does it with speed, much like Westbrook, while Irving does it with quicks and handles. That certainly ages better than overall speed.
I understand Rose deserves to still be rated ahead of Irving on the PG List as long as he comes back healthy next season, but Irving may usurp that position even with them both playing healthy as soon as next year.
Best PG in the game? Being in that conversation at 20 years old is amazing, even if he's still #5 or #6. But, in 3 years, this conversation may change to "who can catch Kyrie Irving as the best PG in the league?"
My vote goes to picking Irving, as he's not a big step down from Rose now, and within a year, when he's done his magic for the 3rd straight season, everybody will realize he deserves to be ranked ahead of Rose, despite not having an MVP or Playoff Victories.
assuming d rose comes back right where he left off il take him, but i dont think he will so irving it is
Lebron's Hairline- You do know at age 24, MJ's game was built around athleticism, right?
I think many people are taking this D Rose argument as its just a win-loss thing. I think you need to look further into the body of work here. Rose has been MVP. The last 2 seasons, Rose was undoubtably one of the 3 or 4 best players in the league. He scored, he made plays for his teammates and came through in the clutch. I like what Kyrie has done, but there is no telling what he would do in the situations D Rose has been in. The only real big college game Kyrie played in was when Duke got smoked by Zona in the Sweet 16. I am a HUGE Kyrie fan. But lets not overrate what he can be or should be an look at what he is. Yes, Rose has been hurt. But if he is still the player he was the last time we saw him, I believe he's better than Kyrie.