[KDThunder35Participant]

 How does this man still have a General Managing job?

To give a little background on this guy, all I need to say is he is the same general manager of the Atlanta Hawks in 2004 when they were in desperate need of a point guard, and they selected Marvin Williams over Deron Williams and Chris Paul.

Back to his job so far in Cleveland.  He was promoted to the GM in 2010.  Let’s reflect on his past 3 years draft choices.

2010 – Cleveland was lucky they didn’t have any picks this year for Chris to make.

2011 – #1 overall Kyrie Irving – absolutely fantastic pick, although a no brainer.  I remember hearing rumblings of the Cavs contemplating taking Derrick Williams with the #1 and grabbing Brandon Knight at #4.  That would have been a disaster (although Knight is solid).

#4 – select Tristan Thompson of Texas – An athletic, high motor guy.  This was considered a reach and for his lack of offensive potential I think it was a reach.  He played better his rookie year than I expected, but I would have liked to seen them select Jonas Val from Lithuania, and stash him in Europe for a year or two.  It’s not like they are in win now mode, but Jonas is a winner in every sense of the word, and his motor literally never stops.

2012 – #4 Dion Waiters – the non-work out wonder.  How does one select a guy #4 overall that didn’t even start on his college team in a draft this heavy with talent?  Last time a 6th man in college was taken this high was, you got it, Marvin Williams in 2005 with the #2.  He didn’t pan out so well.  This guy doesn’t have the footspeed to be a great scorer as he is undersized.  Also, his attitude/body language on the floor is not encouraging either.  I would have liked the Cavs to select Jeremy Lamb (could traded down for him and got some other nice pieces), Terrence Ross (same as Lamb, trade down add assets), or even Thomas Robinson if you selected Jonas Val in the previous year.

#17 – Tyler Zeller – Has been impressive in summer league thus far, however he seems to be more of a great backup center/power forward than a starter to me.  His motor is good and he is unselfish, but there were many other players they could have selected with #24, #33 and #34 that you traded for Zeller.  Players available at those slots include:  Perry Jones (upside pick), Draymond Green (role player), Quincy Miller (upside pick), Marquis Teague (upside pick, trade bait), and a couple others.  With a Cavs team with plenty of D-League players, might as well fill out your roster with excellent upside and role players.

I don’t wish bad on anyone, but I hope Waiters doesn’t pan out for the Cavs due to the fact that I want Chris Grant out of the GM position.  They have a lot of trouble putting a team together, and completely screwed up giving LeBron no help when they had him.  They make a lot of panic moves.  This is why Cleveland is doomed for a while, terrible management when given excellent opportunities.

[JoeWolf1]

 I agree with you as far as the Thompson and Waiters picks are concerned.  They were both reaches and not the best players available, which in my opinion, is where you have to go with top 5 draft picks.

I do like the Zeller trade, though, he was a steal at #17 and with Varejau’s future up in the air and backups to the likes of 6’9” Samuels and maybe half of Tristian Thompson’s minutes at that position.  They also just lost Erden to Europe.  I think trading for Zeller was smart.  He’s 7′ can play right away and there wasn’t a center prospect of his caliber later in the draft.

 

[TheArtistPaysthePriceParticipant]

He has it so the Cavs get 2 first round selections in every draft for 5 years. KI/TT (11), DW/TZ (12), CAVS/HEAT (13), SAC/CAVS (14), CAVS/HEAT (15). Look this Cleveland, free agents dont come here, it is what it is. The only way is trade or draft. You need first round picks to do either. Nobody wanted 4 rookies this year because there is never even 4 roster spots. Especially Coach Scott, I would be willing to bet he hates PJ3’s game. To passive and meek as a person or at least it would only take two weeks for PJ3 to hate Scott at camp.

There are only 4 players in the 2011 draft that are better prospects than Tristan Thompson. Only 4, imo hands down. Kyrie, Klay T, Jonas V. I like Knight but you cant pick him and that leaves the only better pick Jonas V and Klay Thomp. You cant be unhappy with a pick but only have one or two guys better than him in the whole draft.

I understand at the time but I honestly expect (with hindsight) better from you Joe. Your smart and there no way you think that only the guy that also wouldnt work out Jonas V whos agent didnt want him here and would even return phone calls. You can admit it wasnt that much of a stretch to take thompson with hindsight.

[KDThunder35Participant]

 I guess in terms of the PJ3 game’s comment.  I personally think it is better to roll the dice at the end of the first round when you are habitually in the high lottery year after year.  I think they make "safe" picks which will end up getting them better in the short term but the long term ends up stuck in mediocrity at best.

As far as the 2 first round selections in the last five years goes, it seems that the only good picks will be all the Cavs first rounders and the Sacramento one.  The Heat selections will be pick number 25-30 every year. And the Cavs definely have 4 roster spots this year.  They were playing a bunch of D-Leaguers (Donald Sloan, Manny Harris, Samardo Samuels) as well as Jamison being gone and Parker retiring.

And ya, no free agents ever want to come to Cleveland.

I really liked your input though. A lot of what you said makes sense.

[TyroberParticipant]

 Irving, Robinson, and Jonas Val? That looks like it could be a very special team….. I don’t get near as excited when I see Irving, Waiters, and Thompson.

[JoeWolf1]

 I just feel that he swung for a team need.  Thompson showed some nice potential as a rookie, and I think he fits in well with that team.  I don’t think he’ll ever average more than 12 ppg.  Maybe I’m under-estimating him, but I think he’ll be a lot like Jayson Williams or Kris Humphries.  I really like Brandon Knight as the best guard not named Kyrie, out of that class, and he was really considered at #5.  I feel you can pick him that high, but I guess agree to disagree.

All in all, I think he’s shown he’s not afraid to get "his" guy.  I think Thompson was a better pick than Waiters, but neither were great.  I’m not giving the guy an "F" but rather saying I would have taken Knight if I would have known he was going to take Waiters a year later.  If you’re going to go with a 6’4” combo guard, why not get the one who is faster, more athletic, a better passer, and a higher character guy with a superior Bball IQ.

[220Participant]

I absolutely agree with your comments on this years draft and Tristan Thompson…we’ll have to see how it turns out. This years draft seemed especially questionable to dump three picks in a strong draft for one guy who is hard to imagine being anything better than a solid double double type starter. With the amount of team need and the way the picks went, they could’ve added much more young talent rather than trade it all for Zeller. There are a few second rounders in this draft who would have been first rounders in last years draft.

If Waiters, Thompson, and Zeller all end up being mediocre in the next 2-3 years then I’d expect Chris Grant will be looking for a new job.

[theballerwayParticipant]

his track record is iffy but its  early in their careers. I absloutely love how you guys have written off Waiters 2 SL games deep into his career. This years shooting guard crop was a case of ‘pick yuor fancy’ as they were all on such a silimar level(imo) -Beal(3?)Ross, Lambs, rivers. All good at some things but lacking in other areas. none were complete(as complete as a rookie 2 guard can be

I like Thompsons potential too. He could be a bull in the paint . if he can turn into a rebound specialist hell be good to go.

[Aran SmithKeymaster]

To the OP, you are incorrect in the first thing you said. Grant was the Assistant GM with Atlanta when they selected Marvin Williams in 2004. It was Billy Knight who took Marvin Williams over Paul and Deron. And I actually spoke with Grant before they made that pick. he asked me what I thought they should do and I said I thought they had to take a PG (Williams or Paul). And he basically agreed. So not only did he not make that bad pick, I don’t think he agreed with it. But he would probably never publicly admit that. That would be discrediting a former boss.

Kyrie seems like an easy pick in retrospect but coming off that injury made it tougher. The Cavs have ties to Duke (scout, David Henderson) giving Grant familiarity and access to Kyrie that another GM might not have had, making that pick a little easier. But that pick should not be discredited due to being a no brainer. If Kyrie can stay healthy he is on pace to be one of the game’s top PGs There aren’t many if any high quality ones in HS or college right now.

Chris Grant might have blown the Waiters pick. We weren’t high on him at all. Time will tell. But I believe he’s one of the top young GM minds in the game. You seem to be using incorrect history as a basis for your reasoning. he’s putting a solid group together. Give it some time. You could do a lot worse than Chris Grant.  

[KDThunder35Participant]

 Aran, personally I thought that Kyrie was a no brainer just after seeing him play in his short stint at Duke and the McDonalds All-American and Jordan Classic games.  His injury he sustained at Duke was not a career nagging injury.  What he did in those first 9 games of the year was extremely impressive.  He controlled the tempo, made Mason Plumlee look like a lottery pick lock early on, and they were winning games comfortably.  When he came back for the NCAA tournament he looked pretty polished for missing close to 2/3 of the season.  And who was supposed to be the #1 pick other than Kyrie last year?  Derrick Williams (who I knew you were really high on), who is the worst type of tweener you can be in the NBA, between a 3 and a 4.  I remember coach K saying he was just going to let Kyrie play prior to the beginning of his freshman season because he didn’t want to make adjustments to Kyrie’s game because it was already extremely effective.  That is pretty damn high praise from the best college basketball coach that I have been alive for.

My bad on the misinformation of Chris Grant making the pick of Marvin Williams, however it doesn’t look good on the track record whether he was on board or not with the pick.  I do remember you saying that you talked to Chris Grant before the 2005 draft in a post a year or two ago and thought that he was the one calling the shots in Atlanta then.  

Obviously I could do worse than Chris Grant, but with some of the picks made recently in my personal opinion it would be pretty tough to pull that off though.

[Aran SmithKeymaster]

Good memory on Grant conversation.

At the time of the 2011 draft, I didn’t like the fact that Kyrie didn’t do the combine testing and I thought he looked pretty slow and out of shape in the tourney.  But not doing the combine testing didn’t matter because the Cavs had been around him so much: they had all of his medical records thru Duke that they basically knew they were taking him. I also didn’t like that he could be injury prone. (Still could be a real problem)

At the time PGs seemed to be a dime a dozen with so many good ones out there (Rose, Westbrook, Wall etc). But PG value is through the roof now. And one that can truly run a team like Kyrie is as good as gold. Yes, the Waiters pick is looking terrible right now. Tristan was a difficult pick and I think DeezNuts is correct you can’t be too critical of it with so few good players available. Lot of busts in that draft. Val and Klay are the obvious misses but Tristan still has upside. Probably won’t ever be much offesnsively tho. Some criticized them for not taking TRob because they are so sold on TT but TRob may not work out either.

Wonder if Kyrie had any input in that pick with regards to Barnes/No Barnes. Having spoken with one of their scouts in Vegas at LeBron, their philosophy is that in today’s NBA – guards do the scoring and you need as many that can create shots for themself as possible. They also loved Lamb but concerns about his shoulders (needing surgery) probably factored in. Lamb’s going to be very good. Like possibly top 3 in this draft good. We had Waiters pegged as a mid first round pick all along. The hype got out of control on him. That was a bold/crazy pick making it without any workout or interview. Barnes just made a lot more sense to me as Kyrie would have covered up his deficiences and probably made him an All Star.

Both #4 picks made in the past two drafts are going to be scrutinized but both were tough choices to make and credit Grant for not just going with a popular pick and taking the guy he felt was the best. (Draft for talent, trade for need). We’ll have to see how those picks work out.

[KDThunder35Participant]

 I agree 100% with you on Jeremy Lamb.  He lets the game come to him and he really has a knack for scoring the ball.  I was surprised that the Cavs chose Waiters over him due to not only the offensive end, but the defensive end as well.  Lamb is taller and his wingspan looks almost cartoonish.  Jeremy is also use to playing with a ball dominant PG too (Kemba and Napier and college), whereas on Syracuse it was more of a PG by committee with Triche, Scoop Jardine and Dion. 

The thing that I can’t wrap my head around is the smaller back court decision.  Kyrie is 6’3 and Waiters 6’4, that line-up just reminds me of the Warriors when they had Curry and Ellis (who is a better athlete than Waiters, IMO). Curry and Ellis were a offensive 2 guards dream matchup.  And they didn’t produce playoff teams with that line-up ( a good chunk due to injuries, but lack of size was always a disadvantage for them).

I don’t like Robinson’s game in the NBA that much either so I don’t think I would have chose him even if they didn’t have Tristan Thompson.  I feel Barnes, Lamb, T. Ross make much more sense, and they could have traded their 4th pick (moved to anywhere between 7 and 12) and got more assets and the guy they wanted.

I just feel this was not the draft to be swinging for the fences with a top 5 pick when there was almost more guaranteed production still on the board.

Thanks for responding and clarifying your and Chris Grants thinking.

[akhan786Participant]

Aran laying down the law lol.

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