[jjonzParticipant]

I’m thinking once you get into the league. I know it takes @least 3 yrs to build a solid base. Never worked with NBA or D1 prospect, friends with a family that has son who has D1 & Pro Height/Skills btw he’s 6’8/age16 prime age for improve High fast twitch fibers should be between 15-17.So is JSully  & other guy’s with ? mobility are what they are as far as athleticisim? 

[OhCanada-Participant]

You most defnitel can. Just look at Elton Brand for example, ear;ly in his tenure he was not as explosive as he is now because he was out of shape, and had sluggish movement. He put the work in is looking alot better and it is helping his team earn a playoff spot.

[OhCanada-Participant]

You most defnitel can. Just look at Elton Brand for example, ear;ly in his tenure he was not as explosive as he is now because he was out of shape, and had sluggish movement. He put the work in is looking alot better and it is helping his team earn a playoff spot.

[SteroidParticipant]

It’s possible to become more athletic. Some of the players in the NBA become more athetic then they every were in their life because they put in extra work to train outside of typical basketball workouts. Genetic factors make some more predisposed to becoming athletic more than others, but a person can always become more athletic than they once were if they put in the right work. There is no reason why any professional basketball player shouldn’t have a personal trainer and shouldn’t be eating right.

[SteroidParticipant]

It’s possible to become more athletic. Some of the players in the NBA become more athetic then they every were in their life because they put in extra work to train outside of typical basketball workouts. Genetic factors make some more predisposed to becoming athletic more than others, but a person can always become more athletic than they once were if they put in the right work. There is no reason why any professional basketball player shouldn’t have a personal trainer and shouldn’t be eating right.

[Mr. 19134Participant]

 Steroid you hit it on the nail abot genetics, some players have are naturally more athletic then other players and never put the work in to become extra athletic because they already had an advantage, but once they get in the league they might realize they need too. 

They got specially made sneakers to improve quick twitch fibers in your leg muslces to improve vertical leaping, and they do work.

As as far as agility and speed, a lot of athletes use resistance cord training.  Tristan Thompson has a nice workout regime where he ties resistance cords about his waist which are tied to a base on the floor and somebody throws him the ball so he has to jump as high and quick as possible to get it, then when he lands he takes a few dribbles forwards against the resistane.  If you ever watched him play this year you can tell it’s been paying off because when he get’s right under the rim on an opponent he just bursts straight up, not sideways or thru the air, but straight toward the rim and takes opponents offguard.

[Mr. 19134Participant]

 Steroid you hit it on the nail abot genetics, some players have are naturally more athletic then other players and never put the work in to become extra athletic because they already had an advantage, but once they get in the league they might realize they need too. 

They got specially made sneakers to improve quick twitch fibers in your leg muslces to improve vertical leaping, and they do work.

As as far as agility and speed, a lot of athletes use resistance cord training.  Tristan Thompson has a nice workout regime where he ties resistance cords about his waist which are tied to a base on the floor and somebody throws him the ball so he has to jump as high and quick as possible to get it, then when he lands he takes a few dribbles forwards against the resistane.  If you ever watched him play this year you can tell it’s been paying off because when he get’s right under the rim on an opponent he just bursts straight up, not sideways or thru the air, but straight toward the rim and takes opponents offguard.

[The lake show2]

yep you can. Football players do i alot as well as basketball players after they get trainers after they leave college

[The lake show2]

yep you can. Football players do i alot as well as basketball players after they get trainers after they leave college

[HotSnotParticipant]

Genetics do obviously play a role in athletic potential but this only applies to the upper most limits of human physical achievement.  Most NBA basketball players (all body shapes and sizes are in the NBA) are no where near this level of athleticism.  Olympic sprinters and weightlifters (in the lower weight classes) are whats possible to date.  Your goal should be to become a "pound for pound" stick of dynamite.

My maximum physical potential may be lower then yours from a genetic stand point but I might still always be more athletic then you because of the effort I put into training.  Factors such as height, weight, body fat, power to weight ratio, ability to transfer this power practically/efficiently, reaction timing, anticipation all play a role in athletic ability and most may be improved upon.  You might be 3 inches taller and much stronger then me, but I might have 7% bodyfat and you carry 10% or more on your god like frame which negates your "genetic advantage".  Practice and play to be faster, stronger and more explosive to take advantage of your training that you’ve done off the court.

You can improve your agility, flexibility, power, body control and explosiveness.  It really takes nothing more then dedication and time.  You can most certainly improve beyond what 99% of other basketball players are physically doing on the court if you put in the work.  Challenge yourself to be physically dominant and you can achieve it.

I’ll give you a free tip to get you started.  Google "pistol squat(s)"  This is one of the best exercises any basketball player can do.  They target all related muscles necessary for a high vertical and reduce injuries.  They give you an incredible base for strength and body control.  I do them bare foot on the floor.  My best used to be 30 in a row on my left leg and 22 on my right leg.  I could do 5 in 5 seconds on each leg.  I used to think I was in good shape untill I added these to my routine.  It took me 2 full months to achieve one solid rep on each leg and 3 more to get to my maximum reps.  My very first attempt felt like my quad muscle was going to rip off.  You will fall over when attempting these initially.  That will pass as you get used to activating these previously neglected muscles and use them in unison to perform this exercise.  What you are really doing is re-training your body to move in a way it hasn’t done before.  This exercise will change everything for you on the court.  Before you go thinking its too difficult or start making excuses, every little girl in figure skating is taught to be able to this while spinning in circles.  How muc do you want it?  Do you really want to be great or are you just saying that?  You have to outwork everyone to be better then them if your not "genetically gifted" and its never to late to start.  I did this at 31 and started jumping higher then I ever had.  I reached nearly forty inches when my previous best around 34. 

Focus on compound exercise’s ie, exercise’s that accomplish more then one thing at a time.  Squats nail many different body parts.  You have to force yourself to do the exercises you don’t want to do… and I’ll tell you right now that "Bicep curls" are the biggest waste of time out there for basketball players.  Your biceps will get plenty of work doing hang cleans/power cleans and dead lifts.  Form is incredibly important.  Full range of motion should always be used and if you can’t perform a proper low squat, lower the weight untill you can.  Work your way back up as you get stronger.  Everyone starts somewhere so don’t be affraid to really admit that your much weaker then you thought you were.  Results will come very quickly if you stay with it.

Lastly, if you want impressive hops that everyone is envious of … jumping is atleast 60% diet.  When should you eat, how much, and what foods are all very important.

[HotSnotParticipant]

Genetics do obviously play a role in athletic potential but this only applies to the upper most limits of human physical achievement.  Most NBA basketball players (all body shapes and sizes are in the NBA) are no where near this level of athleticism.  Olympic sprinters and weightlifters (in the lower weight classes) are whats possible to date.  Your goal should be to become a "pound for pound" stick of dynamite.

My maximum physical potential may be lower then yours from a genetic stand point but I might still always be more athletic then you because of the effort I put into training.  Factors such as height, weight, body fat, power to weight ratio, ability to transfer this power practically/efficiently, reaction timing, anticipation all play a role in athletic ability and most may be improved upon.  You might be 3 inches taller and much stronger then me, but I might have 7% bodyfat and you carry 10% or more on your god like frame which negates your "genetic advantage".  Practice and play to be faster, stronger and more explosive to take advantage of your training that you’ve done off the court.

You can improve your agility, flexibility, power, body control and explosiveness.  It really takes nothing more then dedication and time.  You can most certainly improve beyond what 99% of other basketball players are physically doing on the court if you put in the work.  Challenge yourself to be physically dominant and you can achieve it.

I’ll give you a free tip to get you started.  Google "pistol squat(s)"  This is one of the best exercises any basketball player can do.  They target all related muscles necessary for a high vertical and reduce injuries.  They give you an incredible base for strength and body control.  I do them bare foot on the floor.  My best used to be 30 in a row on my left leg and 22 on my right leg.  I could do 5 in 5 seconds on each leg.  I used to think I was in good shape untill I added these to my routine.  It took me 2 full months to achieve one solid rep on each leg and 3 more to get to my maximum reps.  My very first attempt felt like my quad muscle was going to rip off.  You will fall over when attempting these initially.  That will pass as you get used to activating these previously neglected muscles and use them in unison to perform this exercise.  What you are really doing is re-training your body to move in a way it hasn’t done before.  This exercise will change everything for you on the court.  Before you go thinking its too difficult or start making excuses, every little girl in figure skating is taught to be able to this while spinning in circles.  How muc do you want it?  Do you really want to be great or are you just saying that?  You have to outwork everyone to be better then them if your not "genetically gifted" and its never to late to start.  I did this at 31 and started jumping higher then I ever had.  I reached nearly forty inches when my previous best around 34. 

Focus on compound exercise’s ie, exercise’s that accomplish more then one thing at a time.  Squats nail many different body parts.  You have to force yourself to do the exercises you don’t want to do… and I’ll tell you right now that "Bicep curls" are the biggest waste of time out there for basketball players.  Your biceps will get plenty of work doing hang cleans/power cleans and dead lifts.  Form is incredibly important.  Full range of motion should always be used and if you can’t perform a proper low squat, lower the weight untill you can.  Work your way back up as you get stronger.  Everyone starts somewhere so don’t be affraid to really admit that your much weaker then you thought you were.  Results will come very quickly if you stay with it.

Lastly, if you want impressive hops that everyone is envious of … jumping is atleast 60% diet.  When should you eat, how much, and what foods are all very important.

[rtbtParticipant]

If someone doesn’t have natural ability, they cannot makes themselves athletic. Either you have it or you don’t.  If you aren’t quick, can’t jump high, or run fast, you cannot obtain those attributes by working hard. The only thing one can do is to maximize their natural abilities.

For example, a guy like Kyle Singler, who’s a great college player, doesn’t have the athleticism he needs to become a good NBA player. I don’t care how hard he works, he cannot magically develop the level of quickness he needs to succeed at the next level.

 

[rtbtParticipant]

If someone doesn’t have natural ability, they cannot makes themselves athletic. Either you have it or you don’t.  If you aren’t quick, can’t jump high, or run fast, you cannot obtain those attributes by working hard. The only thing one can do is to maximize their natural abilities.

For example, a guy like Kyle Singler, who’s a great college player, doesn’t have the athleticism he needs to become a good NBA player. I don’t care how hard he works, he cannot magically develop the level of quickness he needs to succeed at the next level.

 

[rtbtParticipant]

You can become the best you can be by maximizing your natural abilities. Anyone can improve by working hard but you’re not becoming more athletic, you’re only developing and training your body to work at it’s maximum level.

However, you cannot develop quickness or speed. There are tons of players who were never successful at the NBA level because they didn’t have the level of quickness required by the pro game. I don’t care how hard they worked, one cannot magically develop quickness or speed.

[rtbtParticipant]

You can become the best you can be by maximizing your natural abilities. Anyone can improve by working hard but you’re not becoming more athletic, you’re only developing and training your body to work at it’s maximum level.

However, you cannot develop quickness or speed. There are tons of players who were never successful at the NBA level because they didn’t have the level of quickness required by the pro game. I don’t care how hard they worked, one cannot magically develop quickness or speed.

[JoeWolf1]

@rtbt, it’s not that you can’t increase quickness and speed its that some players don’t put in the effort in training to do so.  I’ve seen first hand throughout my experience in track and feild guys who took their training to the next level and as a result greatly increased their speed and quickness.  I naturally had a high vertical, but with specific training increased it 7” over a couple year span.

You can’t tell me that every NBA player is training to their maximum physical ability, some slow guys could get to an average level, but their content carrying an extra 15-20lbs and content being jump shooters and defensive liabilities and collecting a check. You can become faster, and quicker.  I’ve seen it first hand, studied and experiemented with different workout routines and I think Sterioid and Hotsnot hit it right on the head.

[JoeWolf1]

@rtbt, it’s not that you can’t increase quickness and speed its that some players don’t put in the effort in training to do so.  I’ve seen first hand throughout my experience in track and feild guys who took their training to the next level and as a result greatly increased their speed and quickness.  I naturally had a high vertical, but with specific training increased it 7” over a couple year span.

You can’t tell me that every NBA player is training to their maximum physical ability, some slow guys could get to an average level, but their content carrying an extra 15-20lbs and content being jump shooters and defensive liabilities and collecting a check. You can become faster, and quicker.  I’ve seen it first hand, studied and experiemented with different workout routines and I think Sterioid and Hotsnot hit it right on the head.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I was always a good athlete growing up, but took my athleticism to another level when I started eating better, working hard on my core and certain areas of my legs…

And I started doing this program that increases your speed/quickness and vertical too. I’d say I became a great athlete after putting in that hard work.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I was always a good athlete growing up, but took my athleticism to another level when I started eating better, working hard on my core and certain areas of my legs…

And I started doing this program that increases your speed/quickness and vertical too. I’d say I became a great athlete after putting in that hard work.

[rtbtParticipant]

This is one time where we disagree or maybe it’s a case of semantics. From my vantage point what you’re describing is a player maximizing his abilities. For me, that’s not the same thing as becoming more athletic which by definition you can’t do.

I bet you can name 20 guys in the NBA who were great college players but are bench warmers in the pros because they don’t have the requisite quickness, speed, or jumping ability to become a first line player. They can work as hard as the want but they cannot develop quickness or speed. Yes they can improve [maximize] but only so much.

Chris Paul and Rondo are terrific PGs because of their speed and quickness. Chris Duhon can work out 24 hours a day, 7 days a week but he will never develop the speed and quickness of those guys. That’s what I’m talking about, athletic ability is something natural that one has or doesn’t have.

There are a couple of old athletic cliches and that is you cannot coach height or speed.

 

 

[rtbtParticipant]

This is one time where we disagree or maybe it’s a case of semantics. From my vantage point what you’re describing is a player maximizing his abilities. For me, that’s not the same thing as becoming more athletic which by definition you can’t do.

I bet you can name 20 guys in the NBA who were great college players but are bench warmers in the pros because they don’t have the requisite quickness, speed, or jumping ability to become a first line player. They can work as hard as the want but they cannot develop quickness or speed. Yes they can improve [maximize] but only so much.

Chris Paul and Rondo are terrific PGs because of their speed and quickness. Chris Duhon can work out 24 hours a day, 7 days a week but he will never develop the speed and quickness of those guys. That’s what I’m talking about, athletic ability is something natural that one has or doesn’t have.

There are a couple of old athletic cliches and that is you cannot coach height or speed.

 

 

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I see what rtbt is saying… He has a point.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I see what rtbt is saying… He has a point.

[rtbtParticipant]

This may be a case of semantics but what you described was maximizing your abilities. I don’t care how hard you worked, you would never run 100 meters in under 10 seconds and you would never have a 40 inch vertical. Those are athletic abilities one cannot develop through hard work.

When I was younger I could have worked out 7 days a week but I never would have the athletic ability required to play college basketball. I was too short and too slow. In sum I didn’t have the althletic skills and nothing I could ever do would give me quickness and speed I needed but didn’t have.

[rtbtParticipant]

This may be a case of semantics but what you described was maximizing your abilities. I don’t care how hard you worked, you would never run 100 meters in under 10 seconds and you would never have a 40 inch vertical. Those are athletic abilities one cannot develop through hard work.

When I was younger I could have worked out 7 days a week but I never would have the athletic ability required to play college basketball. I was too short and too slow. In sum I didn’t have the althletic skills and nothing I could ever do would give me quickness and speed I needed but didn’t have.

[andxxxParticipant]

 Indiana what program did u use?

[andxxxParticipant]

 Indiana what program did u use?

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Yea… I see what you’re saying.

I’ve played with non-athletic guys who worked hard and got quicker/faster, but I still would never have said they were athletic lol.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

Yea… I see what you’re saying.

I’ve played with non-athletic guys who worked hard and got quicker/faster, but I still would never have said they were athletic lol.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I can’t even remember all of the training programs I did back during high school. Sparq… I did something called Speed and Sky I think. I did a lot of plyometrics.

Another program I did on my own was Air Alert. That helped me out a lot. Made me quicker/faster, increased my vertical… Helped me jump off of two feet better and just made me more explosive.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I can’t even remember all of the training programs I did back during high school. Sparq… I did something called Speed and Sky I think. I did a lot of plyometrics.

Another program I did on my own was Air Alert. That helped me out a lot. Made me quicker/faster, increased my vertical… Helped me jump off of two feet better and just made me more explosive.

[rtbtParticipant]

Thanks Indiana. I think the disagreement in this thread is probably a case of semantics. As I repeatedly stated, there is a significant difference between maximizing your natural abilities, which everyone can do, versus gaining brand new athletic abilities, which nobody can do.

[rtbtParticipant]

Thanks Indiana. I think the disagreement in this thread is probably a case of semantics. As I repeatedly stated, there is a significant difference between maximizing your natural abilities, which everyone can do, versus gaining brand new athletic abilities, which nobody can do.

[Sonny RedParticipant]

I used strength shoes when I was younger and they helped my jumping ability and speed. I think most people can increase their athletic ability, but you can’t turn a Matt Bonner into Blake Griffin, or even Elton Brand.

[Sonny RedParticipant]

I used strength shoes when I was younger and they helped my jumping ability and speed. I think most people can increase their athletic ability, but you can’t turn a Matt Bonner into Blake Griffin, or even Elton Brand.

[JoeWolf1]

 Yeah, now that I re-read everything I think it is a case of semantics. I get what you’re saying, myself and the guys I saw really elivate their athletic ability in track were pretty damn good to start out with.  I have never seen a guy who is weak and uncoordinated maximize to anything over average and although faster and stronger they still were not fluid athletes.

[JoeWolf1]

 Yeah, now that I re-read everything I think it is a case of semantics. I get what you’re saying, myself and the guys I saw really elivate their athletic ability in track were pretty damn good to start out with.  I have never seen a guy who is weak and uncoordinated maximize to anything over average and although faster and stronger they still were not fluid athletes.

[HotSnotParticipant]

I’m completely against this love fest that developed on this thread.  I guess no one is a big believer in Kinesiology.  I was one of those weak and uncoordinated guys who worked his a$$ off to be slightly better then average but not a particularly fluid athlete all through highschool and college. I tried all those programs including air alert and I still own the strength shoes I bought back then.  These types of programs are just OK.  Air alert is actually pretty bad for your knee’s because you tend to get lazy and tired in those high reps.  This means a complete break down in technique which also means injuries due to over use and muscle/joint fatigue.  Its more the amount of exercise your doing then the exercises themselves. I achieved 34 inches which was enough to dunk ok, but really not impressive.

Its not until I realized that all the best jumpers jump realtively the same way.  One foot or two foot, the approach, initial foot plant, flex, decline, transfer, thrust, extension and SPEED while doing it…  Its all the same crap.  This is where I started to pay attention and I went out and filmed myself.  I was pretty disappointed with what I saw and I decided to rebuild myself mechanically.  My first step was to change the way I ran.  I’ll be the first to admit I was a lazy runner.  I had never put thought into my running technique before, but I had bad technique.  I used a momentum based stride.  Instead of attacking each step with purpose and force (focusing on muscle use and development) I would pretty much just swing my legs forward after each step.  My technique was very effcient.  It was the type of run that someone figures out how to do just to make it through gym class in highschool.  Quite pathetic really.  Jumping is alot like sprinting in that the movement itself requires alot of power to be sucessful but also in that your goal is to be inefficient. Yes inefficient.  In fact, forget about effciency all together. Attack attack attack. It is not how easy you run (efficient stable stride that could be maintained for long distance runners) but how you run (practicing an explosive, forceful, purposeful stride with proper technique) that is important.  This is where pistol squats helped me out.  Muscle activation is just as important as anything else.  You have many muscles you barely use based on a life of bad habits but some of these muscles are exactly what you need to make the necessary adjustments.  After nailing pistols I not only had a great foundation, but I had some new muscle memory to build off of when I would practice sprinting after my runs.  Baby steps you know?  I added twice a day stretching to help improve my range of motion.  Being on my toes all the time and being able to hold the low and agressive defensive stance for a whole game.  I focused on a lot of little things.  Many little changes equal one big change.  This whole process took me 10 months to get right and be able to apply practically.  I was already in decent shape (or so I thought) before beginning this challenge and I also increased my weight training workouts.  One more important thing to mention, you cannot lose weight and put on muscle at the same time.  They are contradictory process’s. 

Lastly I would argue that ANYONE, and I mean anyone, could achieve a 40 inch vert.  50inch like guys in TFB is most certainly out of my range and is exactly when genetics matter for this topic.  I’m just not built that way.  I might get 42 but thats about my max potential as far as I know.  Now this is important… why doesn’t everyone in the NBA have a forty inch vert?  Work ethic.  Thats it.  Don’t question it, just go with it.  Work ethic is not just about how hard you work but how smart you work.  Smart doesn’t mean less or easy, smart means making difficult changes and setting up challenging goals to achieve something greater then the sum of its parts.  I bet Steve Nash could train to dunk like crazy if he wanted it.  Thats not his game though and he learned to play without needing that ability.  Too often people settle.  I see no reason why you couldn’t train Dirk Nowitzki to move around like Dwayne Wade.  It sounds stupid to say but thats the reality of it.  As Dirk matured,the way he walks and runs was "enough" to still be great.  Why change what works for Dirk?  Mike Bibby looks like he has a fantastic natural frame, I don’t know why that guy isn’t crushing it athletically.  The only thing I can think of is he just doesn’t work that hard.  Look at Melo’s highschool tapes and the way he moves and look at how he moves in the NBA.  He gained alot of weight. Some may say he got stronger, which may be true, but he’s also alot slower and can’t jump as high.  Why couldn’t he have the best of both worlds?  Ray Allen is 35 this season and I still see him throwing down dunks and catching lobs.  Grant Hill could have made excuse after excuse for all the injuries he’s suffered but he’s still pretty darn athletic at 38. Shaq on the other hand has got FATTER every single year he’s been in the league to the point that he can barely catch a lob right now.  Not one time did Shaq come back better or even maintain what he had at the end of the previous season.  His size was always enough.  Why settle?  Why say this is good enough?  Shaq could stand to lose around a 100 pounds and it would be disgusting how good he would be.  He could probably play another 10 years if he did that.  All his injury problems would go away and he’d feel fantastic. 

You can Change yourself.  You can be anyone you want to be.  Find out what works and be that.  You just have to really want it.  Eat, sleep, breath anything and you’ll be better then 99% of everyone else.  Genetically you might not be capable of being Dwayne Wade but you could definitly be Wade LITE.

[HotSnotParticipant]

I’m completely against this love fest that developed on this thread.  I guess no one is a big believer in Kinesiology.  I was one of those weak and uncoordinated guys who worked his a$$ off to be slightly better then average but not a particularly fluid athlete all through highschool and college. I tried all those programs including air alert and I still own the strength shoes I bought back then.  These types of programs are just OK.  Air alert is actually pretty bad for your knee’s because you tend to get lazy and tired in those high reps.  This means a complete break down in technique which also means injuries due to over use and muscle/joint fatigue.  Its more the amount of exercise your doing then the exercises themselves. I achieved 34 inches which was enough to dunk ok, but really not impressive.

Its not until I realized that all the best jumpers jump realtively the same way.  One foot or two foot, the approach, initial foot plant, flex, decline, transfer, thrust, extension and SPEED while doing it…  Its all the same crap.  This is where I started to pay attention and I went out and filmed myself.  I was pretty disappointed with what I saw and I decided to rebuild myself mechanically.  My first step was to change the way I ran.  I’ll be the first to admit I was a lazy runner.  I had never put thought into my running technique before, but I had bad technique.  I used a momentum based stride.  Instead of attacking each step with purpose and force (focusing on muscle use and development) I would pretty much just swing my legs forward after each step.  My technique was very effcient.  It was the type of run that someone figures out how to do just to make it through gym class in highschool.  Quite pathetic really.  Jumping is alot like sprinting in that the movement itself requires alot of power to be sucessful but also in that your goal is to be inefficient. Yes inefficient.  In fact, forget about effciency all together. Attack attack attack. It is not how easy you run (efficient stable stride that could be maintained for long distance runners) but how you run (practicing an explosive, forceful, purposeful stride with proper technique) that is important.  This is where pistol squats helped me out.  Muscle activation is just as important as anything else.  You have many muscles you barely use based on a life of bad habits but some of these muscles are exactly what you need to make the necessary adjustments.  After nailing pistols I not only had a great foundation, but I had some new muscle memory to build off of when I would practice sprinting after my runs.  Baby steps you know?  I added twice a day stretching to help improve my range of motion.  Being on my toes all the time and being able to hold the low and agressive defensive stance for a whole game.  I focused on a lot of little things.  Many little changes equal one big change.  This whole process took me 10 months to get right and be able to apply practically.  I was already in decent shape (or so I thought) before beginning this challenge and I also increased my weight training workouts.  One more important thing to mention, you cannot lose weight and put on muscle at the same time.  They are contradictory process’s. 

Lastly I would argue that ANYONE, and I mean anyone, could achieve a 40 inch vert.  50inch like guys in TFB is most certainly out of my range and is exactly when genetics matter for this topic.  I’m just not built that way.  I might get 42 but thats about my max potential as far as I know.  Now this is important… why doesn’t everyone in the NBA have a forty inch vert?  Work ethic.  Thats it.  Don’t question it, just go with it.  Work ethic is not just about how hard you work but how smart you work.  Smart doesn’t mean less or easy, smart means making difficult changes and setting up challenging goals to achieve something greater then the sum of its parts.  I bet Steve Nash could train to dunk like crazy if he wanted it.  Thats not his game though and he learned to play without needing that ability.  Too often people settle.  I see no reason why you couldn’t train Dirk Nowitzki to move around like Dwayne Wade.  It sounds stupid to say but thats the reality of it.  As Dirk matured,the way he walks and runs was "enough" to still be great.  Why change what works for Dirk?  Mike Bibby looks like he has a fantastic natural frame, I don’t know why that guy isn’t crushing it athletically.  The only thing I can think of is he just doesn’t work that hard.  Look at Melo’s highschool tapes and the way he moves and look at how he moves in the NBA.  He gained alot of weight. Some may say he got stronger, which may be true, but he’s also alot slower and can’t jump as high.  Why couldn’t he have the best of both worlds?  Ray Allen is 35 this season and I still see him throwing down dunks and catching lobs.  Grant Hill could have made excuse after excuse for all the injuries he’s suffered but he’s still pretty darn athletic at 38. Shaq on the other hand has got FATTER every single year he’s been in the league to the point that he can barely catch a lob right now.  Not one time did Shaq come back better or even maintain what he had at the end of the previous season.  His size was always enough.  Why settle?  Why say this is good enough?  Shaq could stand to lose around a 100 pounds and it would be disgusting how good he would be.  He could probably play another 10 years if he did that.  All his injury problems would go away and he’d feel fantastic. 

You can Change yourself.  You can be anyone you want to be.  Find out what works and be that.  You just have to really want it.  Eat, sleep, breath anything and you’ll be better then 99% of everyone else.  Genetically you might not be capable of being Dwayne Wade but you could definitly be Wade LITE.

[rtbtParticipant]

HotSnot said, "Lastly I would argue that ANYONE, and I mean anyone, could achieve a 40 inch vert"

On what planet? If that was true, half the players in the NBA would have 40 inch verticals. It ain’t happening. By the way, does that include Jeff Van Gundy?

And I guess anyone who follows your technique can run 100 meters in under 10 seconds and  a 4.3 second 40 yard dash. Yeah right ……

[rtbtParticipant]

HotSnot said, "Lastly I would argue that ANYONE, and I mean anyone, could achieve a 40 inch vert"

On what planet? If that was true, half the players in the NBA would have 40 inch verticals. It ain’t happening. By the way, does that include Jeff Van Gundy?

And I guess anyone who follows your technique can run 100 meters in under 10 seconds and  a 4.3 second 40 yard dash. Yeah right ……

[JoeWolf1]

 @Hotsnot, yeah you can change yourself, look at a guy like Tyler Hansbrough who is a gym rat and always had knocks for being un-athletic, but he only had something like a 32 or 34” vert in the combine which is good, but you can’t tell me he could have a 40” vert, but he just isn’t trying.  

I get what you’re saying, and that’s great you worked hard to achieve your goals, and everyone can change and better themselves, but not everyone can have a 40” vert.

[JoeWolf1]

 @Hotsnot, yeah you can change yourself, look at a guy like Tyler Hansbrough who is a gym rat and always had knocks for being un-athletic, but he only had something like a 32 or 34” vert in the combine which is good, but you can’t tell me he could have a 40” vert, but he just isn’t trying.  

I get what you’re saying, and that’s great you worked hard to achieve your goals, and everyone can change and better themselves, but not everyone can have a 40” vert.

[HotSnotParticipant]

When I said "anyone", I thought it was obvious that you should be under 40 and be a basketball player.  If your starting from scratch this would take many years to do.  The 10, 000 hour rule would apply to a 50 inch vert if its even genetically feasible for that person but it takes alot less for a 40 inch.  Of those 10k hours your can break them down into segments of progression starting from a sedentary lifestyle.  If your already an active ball player, who is otherwise healthy, 40 is within your reach.  I’d go so far as to say you could do it in about a year if you have no set backs (injuries) and don’t cheat.  You only get what you put into it.  A 50 inch vert is comparable to a 10 second 100 m.  Around 11 seconds would be a 40 inch.  11.5 is around a 35 and so on.  These are running verts, not standing.  A person with an 11 second time in the 100 likely has between a 30-33 inch standing vert.  If he learns the technique he can hit 40 running.  It takes a long time just to learn to jump properly and get the foot work right.  Muscle memory is certainly necessary.  Things most advanced ball players take for granted.  Don’t discourage the poster who originally started this thread by asking about improving athleticism.  6ft8 and only 16 years old!  You can be any form of basketball player you want and your only limited by how hard/smart you work.  Being a gym rat won’t necesarily make you jump high either if your not using that time effectively.

It was always thought that to be a world class sprinter you needed to have a certain body type.  Tall sprinters like Donovan Baily (just over 6ft1) in 96 were thought to be at a distinct disadvantge mechanically and would never be able to match what the little pitbull sprinters were doing.  In 08/09 Usain Bolt turned everything people thought they knew about sprinting on its head by shattering the 100m/200m standing at 6ft5 and posessing more of a lean and long frame instead of the compact musculature of the sprinters that previously dominated the sport.

I’m sure with that example your gonna bring up genetics again… but the goal is not to be the best in the world the goal is to train to be the best and let the chips fall where they may.  If you did everything exactly the same as Usain Bolt for an entire year you still won’t be as fast, but there’s no reason you couldn’t make close to 11 seconds in the hundred.  Diet, smart training, work ethic and some luck can have anyone right there.

[HotSnotParticipant]

When I said "anyone", I thought it was obvious that you should be under 40 and be a basketball player.  If your starting from scratch this would take many years to do.  The 10, 000 hour rule would apply to a 50 inch vert if its even genetically feasible for that person but it takes alot less for a 40 inch.  Of those 10k hours your can break them down into segments of progression starting from a sedentary lifestyle.  If your already an active ball player, who is otherwise healthy, 40 is within your reach.  I’d go so far as to say you could do it in about a year if you have no set backs (injuries) and don’t cheat.  You only get what you put into it.  A 50 inch vert is comparable to a 10 second 100 m.  Around 11 seconds would be a 40 inch.  11.5 is around a 35 and so on.  These are running verts, not standing.  A person with an 11 second time in the 100 likely has between a 30-33 inch standing vert.  If he learns the technique he can hit 40 running.  It takes a long time just to learn to jump properly and get the foot work right.  Muscle memory is certainly necessary.  Things most advanced ball players take for granted.  Don’t discourage the poster who originally started this thread by asking about improving athleticism.  6ft8 and only 16 years old!  You can be any form of basketball player you want and your only limited by how hard/smart you work.  Being a gym rat won’t necesarily make you jump high either if your not using that time effectively.

It was always thought that to be a world class sprinter you needed to have a certain body type.  Tall sprinters like Donovan Baily (just over 6ft1) in 96 were thought to be at a distinct disadvantge mechanically and would never be able to match what the little pitbull sprinters were doing.  In 08/09 Usain Bolt turned everything people thought they knew about sprinting on its head by shattering the 100m/200m standing at 6ft5 and posessing more of a lean and long frame instead of the compact musculature of the sprinters that previously dominated the sport.

I’m sure with that example your gonna bring up genetics again… but the goal is not to be the best in the world the goal is to train to be the best and let the chips fall where they may.  If you did everything exactly the same as Usain Bolt for an entire year you still won’t be as fast, but there’s no reason you couldn’t make close to 11 seconds in the hundred.  Diet, smart training, work ethic and some luck can have anyone right there.

[JoeWolf1]

Ok, You were really throwing me off with the 40” vert because I was assuming you were talking about a standing vert. I’ve always assumed when measuring your vertical leap there was flat footed ( which is most commonly accepted) and one footed.  If you’re going by running then when I was younger I had around a 42” running vert because I’m 3 foot tall at the hip and could high jump 6’6”, but I feel like most people would have any idea what their running vertical is and the only reason I could guess mine is because I used to compete in high jump and I knew for a fact how high I could get my a$$ off the ground.

I’m with you as far as people improving themselves, doing the right kind of training and seeing results, but I feel like you can really only elevate yourself "one level" athletically.  If you’re an average athlete, with training you can become a good athlete, or if you’re a good athlete you can become a very good or elite level athlete. There are different types of athletes too, there was a guy I ran track with who could run a sub 21 second 200m and he couldn’t touch the rim and I had an 35” standing vertical and could barely crack a 12 second 100m. I’m using track and feild as an example to make the point that everyone is different athleticially because the different events play into different strengths and I’ve seen a variety of people doing the same things and having different results, you put the same people on the same training schedule and some people are just better athletes.

 I’m not trying to rain on anyone’s parade, and people can make great improvements physically, but everyone doesn’t have an inner Lebron James or Carl Lewis and they just haven’t trained correctly. 

[JoeWolf1]

Ok, You were really throwing me off with the 40” vert because I was assuming you were talking about a standing vert. I’ve always assumed when measuring your vertical leap there was flat footed ( which is most commonly accepted) and one footed.  If you’re going by running then when I was younger I had around a 42” running vert because I’m 3 foot tall at the hip and could high jump 6’6”, but I feel like most people would have any idea what their running vertical is and the only reason I could guess mine is because I used to compete in high jump and I knew for a fact how high I could get my a$$ off the ground.

I’m with you as far as people improving themselves, doing the right kind of training and seeing results, but I feel like you can really only elevate yourself "one level" athletically.  If you’re an average athlete, with training you can become a good athlete, or if you’re a good athlete you can become a very good or elite level athlete. There are different types of athletes too, there was a guy I ran track with who could run a sub 21 second 200m and he couldn’t touch the rim and I had an 35” standing vertical and could barely crack a 12 second 100m. I’m using track and feild as an example to make the point that everyone is different athleticially because the different events play into different strengths and I’ve seen a variety of people doing the same things and having different results, you put the same people on the same training schedule and some people are just better athletes.

 I’m not trying to rain on anyone’s parade, and people can make great improvements physically, but everyone doesn’t have an inner Lebron James or Carl Lewis and they just haven’t trained correctly. 

[jjonzParticipant]

Like I said Early my friend has a son who is 6’8 & he’s 16. She will not allow him to lift weights until he’s 17. Has she stopped him from developing. Here’s my plan for Elite Athleticisim

Starting @ age 15 with time put in for skill work: Whatever skill is needed. Court Vision/Mental preparation( I mean throwing wrenches @ kids), hand/eye work

6mnth of SS Starting Strength

6mnth Max Strength You only need this type of training Once or twice in your life time. Terrible on the joints

These next 2 are the $$$$ Programs

1yr of Strength Endurance. I mean Farmers type of endurance 90% of your max for 15setX1-3 reps with 30-60 sec rest. While maintaing your conditioning & skill work

1yr of Power: This is the Power Exercises& Plyometrics+ Speed and Agility work

 

[jjonzParticipant]

Like I said Early my friend has a son who is 6’8 & he’s 16. She will not allow him to lift weights until he’s 17. Has she stopped him from developing. Here’s my plan for Elite Athleticisim

Starting @ age 15 with time put in for skill work: Whatever skill is needed. Court Vision/Mental preparation( I mean throwing wrenches @ kids), hand/eye work

6mnth of SS Starting Strength

6mnth Max Strength You only need this type of training Once or twice in your life time. Terrible on the joints

These next 2 are the $$$$ Programs

1yr of Strength Endurance. I mean Farmers type of endurance 90% of your max for 15setX1-3 reps with 30-60 sec rest. While maintaing your conditioning & skill work

1yr of Power: This is the Power Exercises& Plyometrics+ Speed and Agility work

 

[HotSnotParticipant]

@ jjonz

If His mom is against lifting, get him on a P90X program or BeachBody Insanity.  BeachBody Insanity is probably the better program for a ball player though.  Get him doing sprints and Pistols and he should build a good foundation for himself for when he’s finished growing.  Body weight exercises cannot stunt your growth or damage your skeleton but they can also be very challenging to even the most experienced lifters.  Don’t forget about the jumping though.  After practice 2-3 times a week, I would try to get in 7-10 maximum jumps (there’s something about looking at a 10ft rim that is more motivating).

@ joewolf1 "there was a guy I ran track with who could run a sub 21 second 200m and he couldn’t touch the rim". This guy was missing the "transfer" part of his jump.  After your initial footplant there’s a transfer section where you need to switch your forward momentum into upward thrust.  Ankles, knees take alot of compression and your skeleton needs a bit of time to get used to the violent nature of maximum jumping.  Hips and Back finish the lift through extension.  You need to be conditioned to get it right.  If a sprinter never practices this then he won’t be able to do it.  His increased veritcal could come VERY fast though if your friend had focused on that.  I would say he’s the prime canidit to put on nearly 10 inches to his vert in a month if he could make a 21sec 200m and get the jumping technique down right.

As far as your 35 inch vert and 12sec 100m, did you ever actually practice sprinting?  Although there is a direct correlation between jumping and sprinting you still have to practice either or to be really good at them.  There are slight deviations in certain points that need to be adjusted.

Check out this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai7FKiaB8ZA

Now I’m not saying anyone can be like that guy but if your more realistic theres no reason you can’t hit 40.  This guys technique is also not perfect in the vid (he’s not a ball player).  I’m sure he could squeeze out a few more inches with better technique.  He could also lose a more couple percent of body fat which would give him a couple more inches.  He’s built like a horse though.  He has a Nate Robinson build which way different then my own.

[HotSnotParticipant]

@ jjonz

If His mom is against lifting, get him on a P90X program or BeachBody Insanity.  BeachBody Insanity is probably the better program for a ball player though.  Get him doing sprints and Pistols and he should build a good foundation for himself for when he’s finished growing.  Body weight exercises cannot stunt your growth or damage your skeleton but they can also be very challenging to even the most experienced lifters.  Don’t forget about the jumping though.  After practice 2-3 times a week, I would try to get in 7-10 maximum jumps (there’s something about looking at a 10ft rim that is more motivating).

@ joewolf1 "there was a guy I ran track with who could run a sub 21 second 200m and he couldn’t touch the rim". This guy was missing the "transfer" part of his jump.  After your initial footplant there’s a transfer section where you need to switch your forward momentum into upward thrust.  Ankles, knees take alot of compression and your skeleton needs a bit of time to get used to the violent nature of maximum jumping.  Hips and Back finish the lift through extension.  You need to be conditioned to get it right.  If a sprinter never practices this then he won’t be able to do it.  His increased veritcal could come VERY fast though if your friend had focused on that.  I would say he’s the prime canidit to put on nearly 10 inches to his vert in a month if he could make a 21sec 200m and get the jumping technique down right.

As far as your 35 inch vert and 12sec 100m, did you ever actually practice sprinting?  Although there is a direct correlation between jumping and sprinting you still have to practice either or to be really good at them.  There are slight deviations in certain points that need to be adjusted.

Check out this vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ai7FKiaB8ZA

Now I’m not saying anyone can be like that guy but if your more realistic theres no reason you can’t hit 40.  This guys technique is also not perfect in the vid (he’s not a ball player).  I’m sure he could squeeze out a few more inches with better technique.  He could also lose a more couple percent of body fat which would give him a couple more inches.  He’s built like a horse though.  He has a Nate Robinson build which way different then my own.

[JoeWolf1]

 @Hotsnot, no, I really just ran middle distance, high and triple jumped.  That Birch guy is insane! Holy Crap, I noticed he can squat 635 and that leg strength is a huge part of why he can jump that high.  I’m in my late 20’s now and my verts gone down a bit over the years.  This thread has just inspired me to specialize my training again, I’m down to where I can only get down a one handed dunk one in every 3 or 4 attempts. lol

[JoeWolf1]

 @Hotsnot, no, I really just ran middle distance, high and triple jumped.  That Birch guy is insane! Holy Crap, I noticed he can squat 635 and that leg strength is a huge part of why he can jump that high.  I’m in my late 20’s now and my verts gone down a bit over the years.  This thread has just inspired me to specialize my training again, I’m down to where I can only get down a one handed dunk one in every 3 or 4 attempts. lol

[HotSnotParticipant]

@ Joewolf, lol me too.  I’m injured (sprained both ankles landing on peoples feet/ grade 2 december and a grade 3 early feb) I just turned 33.  I only have a brief window to still hit my max before my decline due to age starts… but I’m gonna do it again.  I think I’m gonna do some before and after pics this time aswell. 

I don’t know if the squat is accurate in the vid but it would explain it all.  A 3times body weight squat is world class and likely responsible for the 55inch running vert.

2times body weight should be enough to get you your 40 inch vert.  Its about as high as I could go with my frame.  I was 6ft2, 178 pounds (5% bodyfat) and squating about 340 and deadlifting 400.  I found 340 to feel quite crushing to my lanky frame and it actually hurt my vert untill my body could heal and adjust to it.  This heavy weight lifting was only after I had a solid frame from body weight exercise, otherwise your gonna kill yourself working out and NEVER increase your vert.  The old myth that heavy lifting slows you down is Very true… untill you stop heavy lifting that is.  Recovery is needed so your body can fix itself.  Don’t forget to stretch twice a day everyday, VERY important!  Go back to light weights for about a month and high reps and your skeleton will recover enough for you to just explode off the floor.  You should feel like a gymnast.

Its important to note that the guy in the vid only had this vert for a couple of weeks before it started going back down again.  He peaked for this testing.

I used alot of science and math to do this…  the biggest one is power to weight ratio.  Body weight exercises (like pistols barefoot on the floor only) can get you to1.5 times squat.  After that you’ll need the weights but you’ll notice alot of other muscles will be under developed (back, hips) which are necessary to handle those heavy weights… this is where your vertical will decline until your body adapts.  You need the core of a God.  Forget a six pack, you need a 12 pack.  Its a frustrating and patient process that just can’t seem to come fast enough.  Diet means no sugar and only essential fats. Sugar turns your blood flow into sludge.  You cannot improve quickly and train hard with molasses flowing through your veins.4-6 small meals at equal intervals throughout the day.  Vitamin supplements, B complex, C, D, E, omega 3 and a good multi vitamin.  Atleast 8 uninterupted hours of sleep each night (this is where you make your gains lol, while sleeping, funny but true).  If your diligent you could make it in about 4-5 months, but if you haven’t done it before it could take 8months to a year.  Form matters for everything.

I’ll say it again, if you want it bad enough (eat, sleep, breath), anyone can hit 40.

 

 

[HotSnotParticipant]

@ Joewolf, lol me too.  I’m injured (sprained both ankles landing on peoples feet/ grade 2 december and a grade 3 early feb) I just turned 33.  I only have a brief window to still hit my max before my decline due to age starts… but I’m gonna do it again.  I think I’m gonna do some before and after pics this time aswell. 

I don’t know if the squat is accurate in the vid but it would explain it all.  A 3times body weight squat is world class and likely responsible for the 55inch running vert.

2times body weight should be enough to get you your 40 inch vert.  Its about as high as I could go with my frame.  I was 6ft2, 178 pounds (5% bodyfat) and squating about 340 and deadlifting 400.  I found 340 to feel quite crushing to my lanky frame and it actually hurt my vert untill my body could heal and adjust to it.  This heavy weight lifting was only after I had a solid frame from body weight exercise, otherwise your gonna kill yourself working out and NEVER increase your vert.  The old myth that heavy lifting slows you down is Very true… untill you stop heavy lifting that is.  Recovery is needed so your body can fix itself.  Don’t forget to stretch twice a day everyday, VERY important!  Go back to light weights for about a month and high reps and your skeleton will recover enough for you to just explode off the floor.  You should feel like a gymnast.

Its important to note that the guy in the vid only had this vert for a couple of weeks before it started going back down again.  He peaked for this testing.

I used alot of science and math to do this…  the biggest one is power to weight ratio.  Body weight exercises (like pistols barefoot on the floor only) can get you to1.5 times squat.  After that you’ll need the weights but you’ll notice alot of other muscles will be under developed (back, hips) which are necessary to handle those heavy weights… this is where your vertical will decline until your body adapts.  You need the core of a God.  Forget a six pack, you need a 12 pack.  Its a frustrating and patient process that just can’t seem to come fast enough.  Diet means no sugar and only essential fats. Sugar turns your blood flow into sludge.  You cannot improve quickly and train hard with molasses flowing through your veins.4-6 small meals at equal intervals throughout the day.  Vitamin supplements, B complex, C, D, E, omega 3 and a good multi vitamin.  Atleast 8 uninterupted hours of sleep each night (this is where you make your gains lol, while sleeping, funny but true).  If your diligent you could make it in about 4-5 months, but if you haven’t done it before it could take 8months to a year.  Form matters for everything.

I’ll say it again, if you want it bad enough (eat, sleep, breath), anyone can hit 40.

 

 

[Author]

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