[chevilicousParticipant]

Ok the reason i wanted to post this was due to a argument that was made a few days ago about LBJ vs Calvin Johnson as to who was the better athlete. On monday night football last night during the Lions game they made an interesting comment based on a "Scientific sporting reasearch lab", that Calvin Johnsons maximum reach while airborn was 12 ft 5 or 6 inches, cant remember the exact number. However they then said that this was also, "larger than anyone in the NBA". Now I find this hard to beleive with the Dwight Howards, Javale Mcgees,Blake Griffins and LBJ’s in the league. What do you think of this?

[mikeyvthedonParticipant]

Other than Shaq is what they said, and according to the database for the NBA Draft combine, it is true. Now, according to the logic that Dwight Howard has dunked on a 12 foot net, it is garbage. Calvin is an amazing athlete, and I know that his vert is ridiculous. But, I am pretty sure if they all tried to touch the highest point possible, their would be a number of NBA players who could reach higher points. Maybe not have a higher vertical, but I think their are a number of guys who can touch higher than 12’5.

[Ibdot98Participant]

 Dwight dunked on a 12 hoop in a dunk contest and allegedly put a sticker at the height of 12’6. This was unproven so sports science called dwight in to test his real max reach. The previous nba record was held by shaq at 12’5 and if dwight would need a 40 inch vertical to touch 12’6 and he did. Check it out on this link.        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Wiq-POmFA.       So dwight howard has the nba record a 12’6. Statistically though michael jordan would be able to touch 12’10.5 or 12’11 inches- 5 inches higher than dwight because mj’s standing reach was 8’10.5 ft and he had the highest vertical of any player- higher than spud webbs or nate robinson or dominique wilkins- at 48 inches. Spud webbs vertical was 42"inches. nates is 43" and dominiques was in between 41" and 45"

[kanyedabestParticipant]

no doubt, if dwight dunked on a 12 ft rim i cant imagine the highest point he could touch……. by my goodness is calvin one helluva wideout

[PrecociousNeophyteParticipant]

 According to the forbidden site they are right. Shaq is the only one who tied him with a 12′ 5” max touch. Next is Solomon Jones in 2006 with a 12′ 4” max touch, followed by Rudy Gay in 2006 with a 12′ 3.70”. Dwight Howard and JaVale McGee tied for 5th in 2004 and 2008 respectively with a 12′ 3”. I believe the announcer who said it on MNF though, Calvin is an absolute athletic freak, being 6-5 with a vertical of 43”.

[Ibdot98Participant]

YOU WRONG nigga. Dwight howard has the nba record at 12’6 inches. Heres proof.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8Wiq-POmFA

[PrecociousNeophyteParticipant]

 On second thought, that was when Dwight Howard was 18 years old so he could probably touch higher then that now.

[chevilicousParticipant]

Ahh I see, I wasn’t exact on the overall statement that was made. Megatron is an absolute beast, I just have a hard time imagining a 6’5 6’6 dude reaching a higher point than a super athletic 6’11 7’0 guy, it’s just madness.

[Ibdot98Participant]

It was the same with michael jordan. statistaically he could rach 12ft 10.5inch because he was 6’6- standing reach of 8ft10.5 and had a 4 foot (48 inch) vertical leap of 12 ft 10.5 inch. : D

[inukawaii8Participant]

 also, the stats you guys are getting for the nba players are when the players doing a 2 step jump… with full speed.. im sure there are several ppl can go higher than 12 5.. but calvin johnson is a beast.. the best athlete in the nfl since randy moss… 

[Malik-UniversalParticipant]

i think sports science exergerates a lot

[PrecociousNeophyteParticipant]

 @inukawaii8, I am pretty sure that they are not results from a two step, because when I watch the draft combine you see them do a no step touch and then you see them do a touch from a running start. You might be right though.

I also remember reading somewhere that Randy Moss had a 50” vert in his hayday. I can’t confirm if that is true though.

[inukawaii8Participant]

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4g6Q-DdgaS0&feature=related

the running start is supposed to be only 2 step as you can see with jeremy tyler… i guess some ppl did it with 3 maybe 4..  lol… but yeah.. those players werent def running full speed tho.. 

and yeah.. randy moss was an absolute beast.. he was a 4 sport star.. he went to the same high school with jason williams.. he was mr. basketball for west virginia… i read some where about his 50” vert too.. but some ppl said its more like 44 or 45.. either or.. crazy guy.. he could’ve played pro bball but he chose to play football.. the guy ran 100 in less than 11 too back in HS! imagine if he had focus only on track.. he probably could’ve ran under 10 in his prime

[JoeWolf1]

 I was watching that and they said Johnson has a 6’10” wingspan and a 8’8” standing reach so I think it is possibile he could hit 12’5”. The guy ran a 4.35 40 and had a two step (not max vert) testing of 43” at the combine. He’s a freak and probably better athlete than most if not all NBA players, due to his explosiveness, speed and strength.  I’d be willing to bet the average NFL cornerback is stronger than the NFL center due to different training and desired skill sets.

[JoeWolf1]

 Edit: NBA center

[JoeJoParticipant]

 I think Andre Iguodala would be similar to Johnson.  They’re exactly the same height barefoot, 6’5 3/4 with Iguodala having an one inch longer wingspan and 1.5 inch longer standing reach.  Of course at the NBA combine Iguodala’s vertical didn’t measure out great but it has to be kept in mind that drastically less weight is put on the NBA combine versus the NFL combine.  NFL prospects spend months training specifically for the various drills, how to get the right technique, the perfect start and so on.  NBA prospects spend their predraft time working mostly on their skills and games because that’s what’s given most weight during their workouts with teams.  

To see hypothetically how much training for the NFL combine drills helps, take the example of Jimmy Graham who plays tight end for New Orleans.  He played college basketball for 4 years at Miami and was a good athlete but he ended up jumping 37.5 inches at the NFL combine.  As good an athlete as he is, it’s hard to see him being one of the highest standing jump leapers in NBA combine history if he had tried for the NBA.  The same goes for Fendi Onobun who played basketball at Arizona and also jumped 37 inches at the NFL combine.  In fact, if you were to compare the NFL combine results to the NBA combine results, the NFL dwarfs the NBA in the vertical test at a rate that is unbelievable.

Seeing how explosively Iguodala jumps, I think he could jump 40 inches easily after months of NFL combine training.  I don’t know about the 40 time but I can’t see Iguodala not being of the premier athletes in the NFL.

 

 

[PlatParticipant]

I agree, this is what I have been saying to all those people who say NFL players blow NBA players out of the water in terms of vertical leap because of the combine numbers discrepancy.

 

Calvin Johnson is faster than AI2 though thats for sure

[JoeWolf1]

 NFL players don’t train specifically for the vertical leap testing.  You’re right a lot more weight is put on the NFL combine, but the players train for the agility and speed drills, not trying to get a huge vertical leap testing.  The high verticals are just a result of their leg strength.  If you can squat 700 lbs launcing 235 + pounds in the air is not as difficult for a player that doesn’t train a lot in squats and explosive lifts ( not a knock on NBA guys just the truth, squat isn’t a 6’10” guys best lift).  That is why you will see linemen and tight ends hitting the high 30’s in vertical leap in the NFL combine…because they are beasts and can squat and hang clean a ton of weight and when you look at leg movement, that is the movement you use when jumping.

That is why there is the desparency, not because NFL prospects are perfecting their form to try to get the highest vertical leap.  The only time scouts even care about vertical is if it’s a wide receiver and yet every year there a tons of guys with high verticals that scounts don’t really care too much about.  It’s because of leg strength, not because of drill perfection.

[PlatParticipant]

I know they dont train specifically for the vertical leap, but the way they weight train in general is for maximum efficiency on all the combine drills because combine numbers are of greater importance in relation to the draft stock than it is compared to the NBA combine and the NBA draft.

JoeWolf hit the nail on the head about vertical leap = leg strength, thats why you see so many high verts compared to the NBA combine. That is why olympic lifters have such high verts because lifting have a high correlation with standing verticals. IMO, NFL players are the more explosive jumpers but NBA players are more natural leapers in general.

[IndianaBasketballParticipant]

I don’t like comparing football players to basketball players as athletes. They train and work out A LOT differently.

[JoeJoParticipant]

 I don’t know if vertical leap is all about leg strength.  It’s about core strength as well.  I’m not saying football players train specifically for the vertical leap.  Of course an improved vertical is going to be a byproduct of their overall training but they do spend time on the nuances of the test.  There aren’t that many drills and they have a lot of time to prepare.  They have time to spare on the vertical test.  It’s clear from hearing players talk during the combine or during their pro day that they’ve worked on various techniques to get them the best vertical possible.  NBA players probably do too but not to the degree that the football players do.

My point about the vertical test is that I don’t think it’s an accurate reflection of leaping ability necessarily, just like the SAT doesn’t so much reveal intelligence as it does course preparation, background, and first year readiness for college.  I’ve seen clips of Iguodala in high school.  I saw him play in college.  He was the same explosive jumper that he is now.  There is no way, at the time of his draft physical testing, the best he could jump was 34.5 inches running and 30.5 flat-foot.   Dwyane Wade also only topped out at 35 inches and did 31 standing.  If football players with their stronger legs were tossed on the court or field together with NBA players, I don’t think the football players would stand out as more explosive jumpers.  

[Malik-UniversalParticipant]

 i got a buddy whos really into fball and watches lots of it…. and during the finals i asked him who he thought were better athletes between nba and nfl players… he said nba guys w/o a doubt because of their size… i mean seeing 6’5” through 6’10” dudes running and jumping like deer takes a hell of an athlete being that tall

i mean this isnt evidence or anything…. its two different atheltiscms…. then another one of my friends said that gymnastic people are more athletic than lebron….. that wasnt smart on their part

[M-DYMESParticipant]

"The only time scouts even care about vertical is if it’s a wide receiver"

Its actually valued at many positions outside WR.  DBs, TE, RB, OL, DL, LB…etc.  It points towards the amount of explosiveness they have in their legs from a start of 0 inertia.  It is something that is extremely valued in OLs and DLs. 

[JoeWolf1]

You’re tearing at a very broad statement, made a year ago.

It’s a very minor factor when evaluating a lineman, compared to a more relevant on feild factor when evaluating a reciever.  That was my point.  No team is going to pick a OT with a 35” over an OT with a 33” vertical on that sole statistic.  But a team "might" pick a WR that can get 2” higher in the air in order to catch a pass that is a little too high.

There are a million factors in evaluating people, athletic ability and position strengths.  You can’t tell me that vertical leap plays as big of a part when teams are picking OT’s and DT’s than it does when they are trying to find their next endzone target.

[M-DYMESParticipant]

Read what you said…

"The only time scouts even care about vertical is if it’s a wide receiver"

Not my fault for that.  Had you worded it differently I would not have brought up the subject but what would cross your mind if you just saw that statement in those words?

[M-DYMESParticipant]

If I have 2 TEs, CBs, LBs…etc. who are similar in most everything else but one has a greater vert, im def. considering the verts. 

[M-DYMESParticipant]

Thats fine.  I just didn’t want to come off as a prick just tearing up your statement.  Its just the only reason I said anything was because of how it was worded.  I like you alot as a poster so it wasn’t meant to attack you at all, just mentioning how verts can be valued outside of just how high a player can jump.

[JoeWolf1]

No worries, man, I got a little defensive because it was such an old topic and there is no basketball to give us better stuff to talk about, lol.

[JoeWolf1]

 While I may have not worded it perfectly, and I’ll admit that, in the context of the paragraph I thought it explained that pretty much all NFL players have high verticals because of their weight training routines and not prefecting jumping technique in order to get another inch on their vertical for the scouts at the combine.

Oh well, I’m not trying to be defensive, although I can see my first post may have come off that way, just trying to better expain myself.

Edit: It was in response to JoeJo’s comment stating NFL prospects spend months prefecting drills.  They simply don’t they just jump higher due to weight training that maximizes explosive power.

[TallmanNYCParticipant]

Tebow’s standing vertical was 38.5 inches at the Combine. I still have to shake my head about that. It is amazing.

[ENOGSIWONdede]

James "Flight" White is by far the greatest leaper in NBA history could get 12’10 consistentally and is the only guy in the history of the NBA who would touch the top of the backboard.

 

Those MJ 48 inch Moss 51 inch numbers are complete jokes. 

[JoeWolf1]

 I wouldn’t be shocked if Jordan’s vertical was around 45” or so consistantly and maybe 48” on a couple great occasions.  He’d get his head at or above the rim on many occasions and there is proof throughout videos and pictures of him doing so.  For a 6’6” guy like Jordan to get the top of his head at the level of the rim is a 42” jump.  We’ve all seen videos of his head above the rim, so you do the math.

[ENOGSIWONdede]

 True it may not be off by more than 4 inches or so but 48 is just ridiculous to say because he obviously was not getting 5-6 inches over the rim, not way off of a number but just so obviously false.

Moss though I am not sure he could even jump 40 inches?  i think he did like ’38 in college

[cinowanParticipant]

I think Andre Iguodala would be similar to Johnson.

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