[OhCanada-Participant]

Here at the end of the year news conference he is making himself look like an idiot. He first states he has always felt Bargnani i a 4, yet he is versatile enough to play the 5. He said in Bargnani’s defense "take a look at a guy like Serge Ibaka, is he a 4 or a 5?". He then said, (on OKC he is a 4, yet for us he would be a 5". Thats because OKC is making good basketball decisions instead of making bad ones you fucking idiot.

He did however say Toronto needs a good deensive bigman beside Andrea, so this is a calling out to Oden, Gasol, Jordan, maybe even Nene, and Dalembert.

BC also blamed himself for the personnel of the team (to some extent).

 

[OhCanada-Participant]

Now he is trying to hint that they are reviewing the possibillity of trading Bargnani and he looks like a constipated Grandpa with a spray on tan.

[OhCanada-Participant]

BC quote of the year. "Alot of people think because I drafted Andrea Bargnani I will always defend him, thats nonsense!".

Looks like he is starting to listen.

[NYCarolinaParticipant]

Why do you always kill Colengelo? You know how many WORSE Gm’s are out there? You have Bargnani, DeRozan and Davis as building blocks, with cap space. The 2011 and 2012 drafts are huge….just slow down and give it a chance.

[omphalosParticipant]

I like that they are finally going to try and get him to the 4 where he belongs. It means Davis won’t be starting for a while longer, but that’s not a bad thing, Davis can contribute more effectively against bench players.

I’d love to see what a healthy Oden can do in Toronto alongside Bargnani, but I get the feeling Oden is sticking around Portland for at least one more season to see what he can do healthy.

Does this mean they go for a 5 in the draft? A Valanciunas, Kanter or do they take their chances with a free agent? If they can nab one of those FA Cs, is a SF or PG their choice? I say give Bayless another year to prove himself unless you get a shot at Irving and draft a quality SF like Williams, Terrence Jones or Vesely if you get the chance.

Beyond all this though I want a defensive coach who will whip these players into shape on that end, even if he isn’t permanent, just one that will fix the attitudes of the players, like a Scott Skiles type.

Raptors could have a bright future in the East with just a few tweaks.

[BothTeamsPlayedHardParticipant]

"He said in Bargnani’s defense "take a look at a guy like Serge Ibaka, is he a 4 or a 5?". He then said, (on OKC he is a 4, yet for us he would be a 5". Thats because OKC is making good basketball decisions instead of making bad ones you &$#%#&@! idiot."

OKC has Kevin Durant, Toronto does not. If the Raptors had Durant and was able to play as horrifically poor a front court as they had out there last night (which really was a typical Raptors front court without Bargnani), their whole outlook would be brighter. The truth of the matter is that the problem with Bargnani is not what position he is, but the fact that he is cast in a much larger role than he should be in. This is where the numbers on losing teams lie to people. Bargnani cast in the Al Harrington or Ryan Anderson role is more valuable than trying to think of him as another Dirk when he just too soft to be in that kind of featured role.

[OhCanada-Participant]

Your right he is alot better then others, but its things like starting Bargnani at C, overpaying bad players, and the lack of consistancy that I cannot stand. I think he rights the ship this summer thou, if given the oppurtunity. Id rather see him stay…

[NYCarolinaParticipant]

I watch Toronto alot. If I was Toronto, you have to call up for Greg Oden or Robin Lopez. I would go Lopez because he’s young, less injury prone and a strong defensive player. Take him, move to get Irving and Toronto is good.

 

• Irving
• DeRozan
• Weems
• Bargnani
• Lopez

Hell, you can go Bargnani at the 3 and put Davis at the 4 in spurts.

[OhCanada-Participant]

Does this mean they go for a 5 in the draft? A Valanciunas, Kanter or do they take their chances with a free agent? If they can nab one of those FA Cs, is a SF or PG their choice? I say give Bayless another year to prove himself unless you get a shot at Irving and draft a quality SF like Williams, Terrence Jones or Vesely if you get the chance.

He said something like this.

There are a number of players who are available in the draft capable of filling that C position, although they are not quite ready. We have to determine whether we want to take a project player, or if we are able to compete for a C in the Free Agent market or via trade. He also said he likes Bayless.

He is defenitely gunning for one of those Free Agents. Dont be surprised if Vesely is a Raptor next year ahead of a guy like Kanter if they cant get Irving or dWill.

[OhCanada-Participant]

How do you compare Ibaka to Bargnani?

[omphalosParticipant]

I’d support the decision to take a project big, if only because as BTPH said, they need a Kevin Durant type, and Quincy Miller is available next season. They develop their youth for one more season, give Bayless and DeRozan the reins to the team to see what they can do. Likely they will be near the bottom, but if they can nab either Quincy Miller or Austin Rivers (would involve sliding DeRozan to the SF) they would be good to go and ready to make that playoff push.

Lineup of Bayless, Rivers/Miller, DeRozan, Bargnani and Val/Kanter with Davis off the bench could take a big step forward very quickly. It’d be rough on the fans, but could bring a championship with the right coaching/depth, which would be worth it in my opinion.

EDIT: I should add, that if it turns out DeRozan can be that flat-out scorer they could go for a do-it-all SF like Gilchrist who is a tough defender to complement him. Teams are going to be lining up for a chance at the 2012 draft class, Toronto should do it’s best to cash in.

[Toronto16Participant]

Gotta agree with NYCarolina, Colangelo has really set this team up with great building blocks moving forward.  The problem was, everyone thought Bosh was going to re sign, and the team was built around him.  Now that he left, Colangelo is starting from scratch.  Give him time to prove himself, he is finally starting to realize that it is time to trade Bargnani. 

Now the 2011 draft is weak, but if Toronto gets a good pick, and we end up with Kyrie Irving, we are in a great position.  Not to mention, we have money to spend this offseason on a Nene, DeAndre Jordan, Greg Oden, Tyson Chandler(who should have been a Raptor anyway) etc.  If Colangelo was able to trade Turkoglu, he couldn’t be THAT horrible of a GM.

To me, the off season moves he needs to do is get a defensive centre, draft Kyrie Irving, trade Bargnani, Kleiza and Barbosa, let Sonny Weems walk and fire Jay Triano.

Could be worse, we could have David Kahn.

[ilmagoParticipant]

1. Draft bargnani, I don’t care, you don’t draft a PF when your only all-star is a PF

2. Turn down the TJ Ford for Gerald Wallace trade. He turned it down. Check that out..he did that because of contract length

3. Jermaine O’Neal…not the fact that he acquired him, but the fact that he gave up ALL that year’s assets for him

4. Turkoglu…I don’t even want to add a thing.

5. Fire Mitchell. He was 8-9 we finished this season 22-60.

6. The WHOLE Bosh situation. Denver has Felton, Gallo, Chandler and Mozgov. We have James Johnson

7. Turn down Beasley’s $11M 2 years contract just to sign Amir to a nicer 5 years $36 M deal…

Do I have to go on? I would rather have Kahn or Dunleavy than this complete idiot

[torontoraptors10Participant]

I’m going to have to disagree with you completely that Bryan Colangelo is an idiot. He has more good moves than bad moves. I don’t blame him for taking Bargnani number one. You don’t come across that many good shooting centres that often. What Bargnani does need, is a C who can cover his defensive mistakes. Just like how Dirk has had Dampier, Diop, Haywood and Chandler.

But IMO, I do think it’s time to trade Bargnani because I really like the play of Ed Davis. Another good thing is that, Colangelo is standing up for what he did and I can really appreciate that. All the Raptors need is a good pick in this years draft and another pick in next years draft and sign a couple of FA’s and they’ll be decent. Just give them time, BC has realized his mistakes and I know he is going to do better.

[thparadoxParticipant]

Colangelo isn’t stupid. But he sucks as a GM.

He’s a pretty good evaluator of young talent. His draft picks have been excellent (Ed Davis and DeRozan would have been my picks). He also brought in Bellinelli, Amir Johnson, Bayless for practically nothing.

However, he should not be making trades and signing free agents. Lets recap some of the ways he’s screwed up

– Turkoglu. This was obviously a disaster from the moment it was signed. It was a DESPERATION move to entice Bosh to stay. He "recovered" by finding an even dumber GM in phoenix to offload Turkoglu. But a lot of the damage is still done. Barbosa is a useless player for our team and doesn’t fit into our plans. This is the type of signing that can doom a franchise for 4-5 years. (Isiah Thomas type shit)

– Villanueva –> TJ Ford –> Jermaine Oneal –> Marion. The initial trade for TJ was fine. Colangelo then had an opportunity to trade TJ for Gerald Wallace straight up and TURNED IT DOWN. Instead, he converted TJ into Jermaine, which was stupid because he was hobbling on one knee. From there we could have let Jermaine’s contract expire (20M in cap space!). Instead, we traded for Marion and took on more stupid contracts… Marcus banks was just burning money.

– Kleiza signing. A role player who the raptors don’t need at all. He could be useful on a contender, but not a rebuilding team. What a waste of money

– Michael Beasley trade rejction. The heat were trying to offload Beasley to us in the bosh sign and trade. For FREE. I don’t know how you turn that down in the raptors situation.

[Toronto16Participant]

Why is everyone so upset we didn’t get Beasley?  The guy is a tweener, he has no porsition in the NBA.  He was playing great earlier in the season, but he is so inconsistent, and this team is already horrible defensively, why the HECK would you guys want Beasley, who can’t guard a chair?

[M-DYMESParticipant]

Sounds like he belongs on this forum.

[thparadoxParticipant]

 @ilmago

Obviously agree with most of your points, since I simultaneously posted them.

However, I disagree on a couple things

1) Sam Mitchell. He was not a good x’s and o’s coach. The Raptors offensive sets were terrible. The win-loss record has nothing to do with it. If a coach is not working out, you replace him. (e.g. Eric Spoelstra is doing an awful job)

2) Bargnani draft choice. At the time, it was impossible to know that Bargnani would never figure out the meaning oft he word "rebound". Bargnani really did look like a poor man’s Dirk. Dirk even admitted that Andrea was further along in his rookie season than he was.

Who were the other options? Roy was clearly star potential, but had knee injury concerns (obviously they’ve caught up with him). Aldridge ha some talent, but was a mediocre PF until this year, content as a mid-range shooter. Rudy Gay? He didn’t have any fewer question marks than Bargani.

[shermParticipant]

We need to get rid of Bargnani, and there is no other way for us to move forward without getting rid of him.  Ed Davis should be starting for us next season, and we should sign/trade for a strong, high FG% Center.  I think Gasol, Nene, D. Jordan, Noah, or McGee would be great to get, although Nene and Noah would be the toughest to aquire out of that list.  If we manage to get Irving, the Raptors are in a great situation. 

Kyrie Irving
DeMar DeRozan
James Johnson
Ed Davis
DeAndre Jordan

Looks like a good young team.  I think if we trade Bargnani though we could get back a good 6th man player, or even trade to upgrade the SF position.  I think Colangelo has set us up for the future, I believe in 2 years we can finally get past the first round in the playoffs.

[OhCanada-Participant]

Rudy Gay was the right choice in that draft. It showed from day 1. Obviously BC is not an idiot but hes made some very idiotic moves, and he really made himself look like an idiot in that press confrence. He was hailing himself up more then he was taking blame for his mistakes. He looked uncomfortable and uncertain, as if he didnt believe his job was there.

Look at it this way. If they get rid of BC, they get rid of Triano, and they get rid of Bargnani. If they keep BC he gives Triano another shot, and maybe even gives Bargnani another shot yet I really am doubting that. Bargnani is pretty much on the block, if the right offer comes along he is gone regardlessly. I think Mayo could become a Rapto too.

The future is bright but with the uncertainty of Triano, Colengelo, and Bargnani’s signifigance to this teams future, the lockout approaching and such a weak draft it is hard to draw positives just yet.

[ilmagoParticipant]

the so called "GM" tried to get Matt Barnes before realizing he could not because he was violating the cap rules??

Idiot.

[NashyMingParticipant]

My rating on BC is AVERAGE.

He’s definitely not the worst because there are so many idiots running NBA teams.

I think there are a lot of people that can do better than BC as the GM of the Raptors, but those people have no realistic chance of working in that position because you need to have connections in order to get these positions.  I definitely think I can do better than BC in terms of handling caps and building a team, but then sometimes ownership also got into the decisions making.

BC actually did ok in his 1st year and had been doing ok since Bosh had left the Raptors.  Most of his horrible mistakes were made during the years when he tried to patch an average team with role players to please Bosh (very shortsight and tried to squeeze out as many wins as possible regardless of price).  It was the wrong strategy and it had been proven by many teams including the Cavs with LBJ, the Raptors with Bosh, etc.  What BC should have realized is that Bosh was not good enough to be built around, Bosh is a good piece to have on a contender but definitely not someone to build around with.  Even if the Raptors was able to keep Bosh last year, BC would have to pay him Joe Johnson money.  The Raptors would be stucked with a lot of salaries and an unhappy star by mid-season (a Bosh-led team is barely a playoff contender).

I am happy that Bosh is gone, but BC should have sent him off for better returns 2 years earlier (which I had been calling for trading Bosh).  I would have traded Bosh for a good package instead of JO 3 years ago because JO had negative value (we needed to give up a 1st to get Marion’s expiring).  Bosh would have fetched us a bunch of first round picks, young players, and expiring contract for a rebuild that could have started 3 years earlier.

Unfortunately, the NBA GMs is a small circle of mostly idiots, I can hardly see the Raptors being able to get even an average GM like BC in the open market.  Unless the Raptors can get Darryl Morey or Kevin Pritchard, I don’t really know who else we could get that would be better than BC.

[kanyedabestParticipant]

if BC was ur teams GM…… then u wud hate his guts to…  he is an idiot

[elevation1013Participant]

All you Raps supporters who want Colangelo gone are just bitter fans looking for the pain of losing so many games alleviated by unnecessary change. I’m from Canada too but out west so there’s always nationally televised games on and I can’t really help but follow them even if I’m not a "true" fan. I watch like 40 games per year prob so I at least know this team a little bit.

 

You have to realize what Colangelo’s strengths and weaknesses are as a GM. He is truly terrible at adding pieces around superstars to take average teams to championship teams, but he’s proven to be quite adept at locating talent and rebuilding through the draft. His 1st round pick history has been listed elsewhere in this thread and can legitimately speak for itself.

 

Also people who want Triano gone may be overreacting a bit too. He’s honestly one of the best coaches in the league at developing talent, which is what a young team like the Raps needs at this point. He’s probably never going to coach a championship team, but he has the Raps players performing at higher levels than I expected them to be at. Look at the improvement we’ve seen from Derozen, Davis and Bayless over the year. Even Bargnani improved on offense, although admittedly didn’t even try on D. Personnally I want Triano to stay until the Raps become a playoff team and then we can see if he gets his game management skills up to the level they need to be to win championships. I might be biased just by the fact I’ve always liked him cause I got free tickets to Sonics-Raps from him back in the day through my uncle who used to ball with him at SFU. Either way I think he deserves to stay, and if you click the link you’ll see the Raps players feel the same.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AvTUa_79re4ygH.mSa91BUSkvLYF?slug=capress-bkn_raptors_wrapup-6565742

Bargnani at this point should be traded, and I think that Colangelo has come to this realization as well. If I’m GM of the Raptors and I look at my team realistically, I can see that we’re not going to be a playoff team for at least one or two years. I go into the offseason with the mindset that anyone is available except Davis and Derozen, and know that nothing specific NEEDS to be done this offseason just due to the abundance of NEEDS this team has.

 

One trade I like is to just absolutely tank this next season by giving up everything for Minnesota’s 2012 pick that the Clippers own. I think Bargnani and either Bayless or Calderon would be great pickups for the Clips and I also wouldn’t object to giving up JJ for that pick either. Bargnani and his rebounding deficiencies would be masked playing next to Blake and DJ, and his poor defense wouldn’t be a huge issue with DJ on the team. That would honestly be the BEST, most versatile young group of big men in the league. The Clips also need an upgrade at point guard as they stuggled with turnovers coming in at 3rd worst in the league for turnovers. Jose is an upgrade over Mo Will for that team, and with the amount of salary the Raps would have to take swapping Bayless for Williams that trade would probably get Donal Sterling sexually aroused.

 

I think a base of Bargnani and Jose/Bayless for Kaman, Mo Will and Minnesota 2012 1st would be a good base for a trade, but the obvious question is what else would Toronto have to give? Kaman is an expendable, expiring contract center who’s post play has become redundant next to Blake and DJ, and will either be moved or let walk next summer as a FA. Williams and Calderon are both identical salaries more or less with Calderon fitting the Clips better (imagine him controlling their offense and tossing underhand oops to Blake Griffin WOW). I think if we threw in Bayless, JJ or our 2011 3rd or worse pick the Clips would consider this.

 

LA will immediately become a legitimate team in the west next year with a superstar to build around in Griffin and looking at a great future. Even if they don’t make the playoffs next year they will still have their own lottery pick to add a final piece in the 2012 draft. The Raps would be a truly awful team next year, but come 2012 should have tons of cap space and 4 stud young players to build around. Imagine what this team could look like in 2012 adding their top 3 pick and Minny’s top 3 pick to Derozen and Davis. In that draft. Scary stuff, especially with Colegalo’s drafting prowess. If they could get a core of say Rivers, Derozen, Barnes and Davis then who knows maybe Dwight Howard takes TO’s max deal to be the man around that young core. What do you guys think, is tanking one more year worth building the most talented young starting lineup in the league? What would it take for the Clips to do this trade??

[thparadoxParticipant]

@ elevation1013

You started off your post on completely the wrong foot. Bitter fans? I have been waiting for the raptors rebuild for a good 3-4 years. I’m actually very happy with this losing season because we need the picks. The sign of a good GM is the ability to stockpile good assets that put you in a position to acquire superstar players.

e.g. Sam Presti got Durant + Westbrook through the draft. Pritchard got Oden + Roy + Batum + Aldridge. But then there are teams like Houston who get a ton of young assets who are appealing in a trade. They ended up getting Kevin Martin and might be another package deal away from a superstar.

I don’t think Colangelo has done a good job at that. He hasn’t done anything to get the raptors on a path to being contenders.

 

Otherwise, I agree with you. Bargnani and Calderon should be traded ASAP.

Bayless should not be traded. I think he has as much potential as either Ed Davis or DeRozan. At this point DeRozan is a good scorer, but his defense needs some work.

The clippers are not the best target because they already have DeAndre Jordan and Kaman. Blake Griffin is their franchise, and he plays PF.

Maybe Milwaukee would be a good fit. They have a good defensive team but could use some scoring.

[NashyMingParticipant]

Milwaukee might be interested in Bargnani, but I don’t really see a realistic deal without taking back Corey Maggette which I would avoid.  Maggette is one of the most selfish player in the league and I wouldn’t want to get him on my team.

I am thinking of a deal with the Detriot Pistons:

Bargnani + Calderon + Kleiza for Hamilton + Will Bynum + Charlie V + picks? (or maybe adding Terrico White?)

The Pistons don’t have an offensive big man and Monroe would probably work well with Bargnani.  They don’t have a pass first PG so Calderon can be a good fit.  The team is stucked with a few unmoveable contracts so they may as well get ready-to-contribute players.  Kleiza is a solid backup SF/PF with a reasonable contract.

They have way too many scoring guards and Hamilton is the one they would want to get rid of asap.  Will Bynum is just a throw-in.  Charlie V had not been performing up to his contract.  The Raptors would get 2 more years of Rip Ham and Bynum, then only Charlie V would still be on contract and he played well for the Raptors in the past and enjoyed his time.  I would use the pick to get Valanciunas or Biyombo.

Assuming, the Raptors get Kanter or Vesely:

Bayless / Hamilton / DeRozan / Ed Davis / Kanter

Bynum / Barbosa / James Johnson / Charlie V  / Amir Johnson / Alabi

Biyombo or Valanciunas may stay in Europe for further development if there’s a lockout.

The Raptors would probably get another high pick next year and the young core looks pretty promising with a lot of cap space once Hamilton and Bynum are off the book.

[OhCanada-Participant]

Raps top five seem to be…

Irving
Williams
Vesely
Kanter
Valanciunas

With that said I feel like if they draft Irving, Williams, or Vesely they will use all assets to acquire a C. If they are able to sign a C like Gasol, Jordan, Dalembert, Oden, Nene, Chandler, etc. then instead they will use all the assets available to acquire a small forward.

I think if they draft Kanter or Valanciunas the plan still sticks but they likely will not be able to acquire a C due to the fact that the C will likely feel his playing time is not secure, unless it is a veteran we are talking about like Dalembert or Chandler. SF would however become more of a priority, and with guys like Green, Kirelenko, Chandler, and company on the market there is no lack of talent in that position either.

Toronto’s core could very well be realized next year, and also should be. Imagine if they somehow acquire Jeff Green, and Marc Gasol while drafting Kyrie Irving. A future of Irving, Derozan, Green, Davis, and Gasol would be extremely bright, and somewhat realistic.

[PaulsJayhawksParticipant]

I would love to get Gasol, Green and Irving.

Say we get Irving how do we get those 2 pieces. We can pay for 1 how do we get the other…tpe…or bargs/bayless or amir if need be? 

[Author]

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