I forgot about westbrook...He needs to be on the team
paul is outplaying tp. Paul is one of the best pg defenders in the leageu and leading the NBA in steals. He would have beeter stats, but look at who is around him on the wings. Marco bellineli has never been much of a contributor in this nba and now he is the startgin sg on a playoff team thanks to the ammount of good looks paul gets him. Ariza is shooting 38% and thats with paul getting him tons of open looks, otherwise paul would get even more assists. Emeka okafor is shooting 59% from the field which is his career high thanks primarily to paul. Paul is absolutely still in the discussion with rose and dwill for best pg in the league, he is just not having great scoring games. But his efficiancy is as good as it gets. 48% from teh field, 46% from three, 90% from the ft.
"Note: I dont think any Spur deserves the AS game this season, no one has played like an all star individually, they just play amazing team ball and work together extremely well. Like amazingly well, amazing efficiency through the team BUT they aren't asking 1 guy to carry a whole lot, its pretty well distributed and everyone on that team contributes a fair amount . But with Popovich coaching I know he'll pick one of them, either Love wont go cause he plays for Minny on a terrible team (like Monta last year) and put in Duncan or he'll give Manu the spot. I think Russ Westrbook deserves it more but the way the NBA works if your team is really good you have to have an all star. "
It really is remarkable how oddly ignorant supposed basketball fans are to the San Antonio Spurs. Four rings, 36-6, and there are people who think they don't have an All-Star. Just plainly amazing. You can list all the wonderfully mundane statistical achievements of Monta Ellis has on an at best mediocre Warriors team, and they can go in the same garbage can with Kevin Love's on a pitiful Wolves team. If you want to find a spot for Tony Parker, it is where you have Monta Ellis.
"I was about to say the same thing, What game did you watch?
So because Love lost 3 out 4 games its different?...Didn't Redd lose 3 out of 4 with the bucks?..Didn't Dallas just lose 3 games with Dirk back?
Kevin Love isn't the offensive player that those guys are??? so because He's on a bad team just discount his scoring?
Al jefferson Scores just as well with Utah as he did with the Twolves
Kevin martin Scores just as well with the rockets as he did on a horrible kings team
ZBO scored buckets with a horrible Clippers team and he is getting Buckets with a better Grizz team.
Gasol did work with the grizz now does work with the world Champion Lakers. That should tell you right there you can't discount a players scoring ability just because they are on a bad team. Its actually harder because defenses are focused on you. Its funny because Micheal Jordan once said it was harder for him to score when the Bulls werent that good but became easier as Pippen got better and as he had more weapons around him
As far as All stars if the criteria is you have to be on a winning team i have zero problem with Blake and Love not making it. If its just by individual talent then they should make it. I dont care what team you are on Leading the NBA in rebounding and being the first guy in decades to average 20 plus and 15, that's impressive and hard to do. If it wasn't then someone would have been putting up those numbers every year since there are many bad teams every single year yet no one has put up those numbers"
Jordan never lost the way Kevin Love is losing. He dropped 63 on the '86 Celtics with a cast that had no business sharing the floor with him. It might have been more difficult, but he was able to do it in a way that he always was competitive.
Pau Gasol won 50 games in Memphis. His career took a hit went Jerry West saw an aging cast around him and dealt Battier for Gay. To this day, he still got the more talented player, but the time it took Gay to develop cost the franchise Pau.
at least one spur has to make it, best record absoulteyl deserves that. Personally i have both tim and manu making it.
Point being , just because you are playing well on a bad team doesn't mean you arent a good player
And Jordan is Jordan. No one is comparing Love to Jordans ability
20 and 15 is 20 15 no matter what team you play on. Theres a reason that hasn't been done very often even though there are bad teams every year and 30/30 is also amazing no matter how bad you're team is. Love drops buckets against Allstar Power forwards while also rebounding
love this write up on NBA.com
Love’s case for a spot on the team is just as strong as Griffin’s, if not stronger. He leads the league in rebounds (15.8) and double doubles (35) and is also averaging 21.5 points while shooting a wicked 46 percent from beyond the 3-point line. Like Griffin, Love is playing both ends of the floor like few players on the planet are capable of doing it these days.
We posed the same should he be an All-Star question about Love to another longtime league watcher, and he was quick to praise the work that Love has done.
“Anyone that tells you Kevin Love shouldn’t be on that team because of the Timberwolves’ record knows nothing about the game of basketball,” he said emphatically. “This guy isn’t just having a great season on a bad team. He’s putting up numbers that transcend the era. Average guys don’t do this anymore. Regular guys don’t do this. All-Stars do work like this and Love should be an All-Star. There’s no doubt in my mind.”
The Wolves’ 10-30 record will be hard for some people to overlook.
What about you?
Why can you not acknowledge the simple fact Kevin Love is a good player and deserving of an All-Star appearance? As mentioned above, if he really was that bad, why doesn't anybody else put up his kind of numbers?
Popovich is going to take all three, and rightly so.
My hunch as to how it will play out not what I think should happen:
Doc Rivers has LeBron, Amare, Wade, Rose, Howard voted in by the fans. He adds Pierce, Allen, Garnett, Rondo, J. Johnson, A. Horford, and Bosh.
Popovich has Kobe, Paul, Durant, Melo, and Yao voted in by the fans. He adds Duncan, Manu, Parker, Williams, Pau, Dirk, and Westbrook. Stern adds Blake Griffin for Yao, but Pau gets to start.
Will you protest If Blake anbd Love are added since they are on losing teams and we all know you are deathly against it?
"Why can you not acknowledge the simple fact Kevin Love is a good player and deserving of an All-Star appearance? As mentioned above, if he really was that bad, why doesn't anybody else put up his kind of numbers?"
Where did I say he was bad? I said his numbers are inflated. I said he is a bad defender. I said that I don't think he got the point that Rambis tried to make when benching him for not playing defense. I didn't say he was a bad player. He isn't one of the top twelve player in the West. He isn't an elite player. He isn't better than Al Jefferson, Paul Millsap, or Zach Randolph. It doesn't mean I think he is bad. The situation is creating numbers, not some great growth in his ability. Great ability and stardom result in wins, clearly that isn't happening.
btph, are you saying pop picks all the reserves? I always thought all 15 west coaches voted on the reserves.
If great ability results in wins, why didn't Minnesota or Boston win with Al Jefferson? Or when Zach Randolph was with Portland or the Clippers or New York?
It might have changed, but I seem to remember the All-Star coach chose the bench players. Isn't that what happened when Mike Brown made sure Mo Williams got in?
"If great ability results in wins, why didn't Minnesota or Boston win with Al Jefferson? Or when Zach Randolph was with Portland or the Clippers or New York?"
When did I put Zach Randolph in an All-Star game? I said he was better than Kevin Love, and he has consistently been a more offensively dominant version of Kevin Love. That said, nobody makes the case he is an All-Star because of his career of being a big number big loss total guy.
Doesn't that just disprove that great ability results in wins? There are 5 guys on the court at a time in basketball, Kevin Love makes up just 1 number, i think it's a bit unfair to say he isn't worthy just because the other 4 guys aren't doing their part. Would Tim Duncan average 21 and 15 on the Wolves and bring them into a winning record? Would LeMarcus Aldridge? Would Zach Randolph? Al Jefferson sure didn't bring them to a winning record. What does that say? Al Jefferson didn't average 21 and 15 on a bad Wolves squad, Kevin Love is, but you said Al Jefferson is better then Kevin Love.
Tim Duncan has an entire career of work to show that he has won with late first round picks, second round picks, undrafted players, and journeymen around him. A lot of people tried to talk themselves into thinking the cast around LeBron James wasn't that bad right after his decision. Oh they have Jamison, Williams, Varejao, etc. Funny how bad that cast looks without him. Why good reason is there that if you look at the body of work of a real All-Star, legend, HOFer like Tim Duncan that you would think he couldn't make a team with nine former lottery picks look good? Why would I doubt LaMarcus Aldridge could make them look good when he is winning with the guys who were on the second and third string to start the year?
A level below them is a guy like Al Jefferson stepped into Carlos Boozer's job in Utah, and the Jazz have not missed a beat. He also was on the same team with Love, was a better player getting more minutes and touches, and only when he left did numbers get opened up. Love and Odom were on the Team USA, Odom took the job. Odom has put up monster numbers before, but has accepted the role of Mr. Versatile for the Lakers. They don't win a title without him, but don't win because of him. I would still take him over Love, as did Coach K and just about anyone else who follows basketball. Once again, Zach Randolph is not on my All-Star team. I have no doubt Zach Randolph can fill a stat line, but when has it meant anything? The only difference is 10-33 an 19-23.
What does it matter where they were drafted? That's bizarre mate. Martell Webster was the 6th pick, so what? He only started for Portland because Batum was out with injury. Manu was drafted in the 2nd round, does that mean he isn't very good, is that what your saying? and until you show me how LaMarcus Aldridge and Tim Duncan would rack up 21 and 15 and makes the Wolves a winning team you're proving nothing and making yourself look silly.
Maybe Kevin Love just improved a hell of a lot after team USA training and has filled the void of Jefferson not there anymore, and playing next to Milicic, did you consider that?. Lamar Odom never put up numbers that Kevin Love did and he had Kwame Brown alongside him. Once again you cannot prove how Kevin Love just puts up meaningless numbers. Basketball is a team sport. Kevin Love is one guy, are you going to take away the stuff he has been doing for the Wolves because of the other four guys?
It's just a tough year for forwards as so many have stepped up to the challenge. Aldridge and Blake have better winning records than Love. Period. Love has teammates and a good offense. He just isn't a #1 option like Blake. He should be used as a complimentary bigman. Hustle and I.Q. Anyone who thinks he's just a backup or 14-8 guy on winning teams needs to check themselves. You put Love on Mia and see if he doesn't put up 16-13. And that's with elite rebounders at the 2-3 positions. With that being said, I think they both deserve the All-Star nod, but so do Odom, and Aldridge. If I were choosing, I'd have to take LO, and L.A. as Odom is doing his thing either starting or off the bench and has paid his dues and finally deserve the ASG nod(never EVER thought I'd say that), and Aldridge has been the MAIN offensive option for a VERY undermanned Blazer team who somehow continue to win in the tougher West. Realistically, I think it's going to be the Los Angeles boys getting in the end. Odom and Blake, IMO. Could see Love getting it as well due to LA being his hometown.
Chris Paul has THE WORST full health playoff team BY FAR. Reminds me of Kobe with Kwame, Smush,Luke, and L.O. A superstar leading a team with a decent pf and a bunch of scrubs to a way better record than should have ever occurred. He REALLY deserves a trade to a winner. Could e so nice for him if NO would trade him to LAC for Aminu, Bledsoe, the lottery pick from this year, and whatever contract is needed. Imagine him creating shots for Blake and DeAndre down low, with Gordon as his perimeter threat. You'd see the flawless Rondo, IMO. It'd be incredible to see what kind of assist records he would break with them.
I wanna see one game this year where Kevin Love tore it up vs a good team, and his team didnt get blown out.
are you serious urban? you want to see stats where love had big numbers against good teams and the wolves werent blown out? Just go to his NBA.com profile and look for yourself and you will see numerous games that fit that description.
17 Jan- 22pts 17reb vs POR 102-113
11 Jan- 20pts 20reb vs SAS 96-107
9 Jan- 18pts 17reb vs SAS 91-94
7 Jan- 30pts 19reb vs POR 98-108
3 Jan- 12pts 24reb vs BOS 93-96
That's just in this month mate
here ill throw you some:
18 and 18 in 3 point loss vs spurs
12 and 24 in 3 point loss to celtics
26 and 14 in 6 point loss to denver
25 and 19 in 5 point loss vs utah
43 and 17 in 2 point loss to denver
all of these are just in the last 30 days so im not gonna continue to go back any further and do your homework for you.
Its funny how they lost all those games.
YOu guys are right, I dont see why Kevin Love isnt in the MVP conversation. Hell, the hall of fame. He is so amazing. He puts up absurd rebounding numbers on a team that doesnt even haev 1 other player that cares about rebounding. He is above average at best scorer, a horrific defender, and has lost 76% of the game in his career. But he can rebound, so he is awesome.
Are you guys familar with World B. Free? He and love had alot in common, just replace rebounding with scoring. I dont remember anybody saying when he averaged 30 a game that he was a great player.
"What does it matter where they were drafted? That's bizarre mate. Martell Webster was the 6th pick, so what? He only started for Portland because Batum was out with injury. Manu was drafted in the 2nd round, does that mean he isn't very good, is that what your saying? and until you show me how LaMarcus Aldridge and Tim Duncan would rack up 21 and 15 and makes the Wolves a winning team you're proving nothing and making yourself look silly.
Maybe Kevin Love just improved a hell of a lot after team USA training and has filled the void of Jefferson not there anymore, and playing next to Milicic, did you consider that?. Lamar Odom never put up numbers that Kevin Love did and he had Kwame Brown alongside him. Once again you cannot prove how Kevin Love just puts up meaningless numbers. Basketball is a team sport. Kevin Love is one guy, are you going to take away the stuff he has been doing for the Wolves because of the other four guys?"
Webster started on Portland because he was a solid player, he was drafted sixth overall because he clearly had the abilities to be a good player. Minnesota is lined with lottery picks. They aren't bereft of talent, they don't play defense and they don't do a particularly good job of moving the ball on offense. No defense and an inefficient offense is a guaranteed way to lose games. Kevin Love is undeniably part of the defensive problem as is Michael Beasley. When the team's best players are part of the problem, the team isn't going to be any good.
Maybe Love improved a lot from USA training? Then why hasn't it showed itself in anthing but a stat line on a team whose stat lines look remarkably similar to last year. The only difference is how they are being allocated.
As for Tim Duncan, nobody knows how any players who have played with the greats would have seen their careers change in a different situation. What we know is that Tim Duncan has four rings and no one does. His rosters have turned over greatly, mostly with players who arrived with little praise, and he has always won. I'm not knocking Manu, Tony, or anyone else, but it is clear who makes them go. The greatness of LeBron is seen in what has happened to Cleveland without him. The greatness of Michael Jordan was that every player who spent two years with him in Chicago left with a contract. None of them did as well in their next destination. The greatness of Magic Johnson was that when he retired, he also retired James Worthy and Byron Scott. It just took them a couple years to realize it. If you look back, when has there been a great All-Star player who lingered on teams that lost three out of four games for three straight years like Love? It has never happened, and none of you that believe his numbers are beyond reproach can explain why that is.
Yeah because Kevin Love can beat the Spurs all by himself? that's basically what he's been doing, the fact nobody rebounds make it more impressive as he's the sole guy the other team has to keep off the boards. Stop being a hater.
"Thats basically what hes been doing"
except the part where he hasnt been actually winning the games, which is kind of important.
typical back and forth with urban, you say some bs, i correct you on it, you then ignore everything i said and change your argument with your next post.
What if the Spurs lost, what would you be saying then? that Tim Duncan or Manu or TP isn't an All-Star? The Spurs have a better team then the Wolves, everybody knows that. Kevin Love is an All-Star, just because the rest of his team is bad doesn't mean he's a bad player, nobody can win games by themselves.
Umm they didnt lose. They beat them by 11 and then by 3.
llperez- what are you referring to? you put up a bunch of box scores of him losing and putting up good numbers. ok, i was wrong, they didnt get blown out. are we proud of moral victories now? your post that i am ignoring your points is a joke. Kevin Love has never proven he can win. He isnt even a great scorer. He has put up great rebounding numbers, but again, guys have scored 30 a game in this league, but if the rest of there game doesnt make them good enough to lead a team, then it doesnt matter.
It is a moot point. The Spurs have never failed to win 50 games in any 82 game season Tim Duncan has played in. They have never missed the playoffs and have failed to get out of the first round twice in fourteen years. I can't imagine the Spurs losing and then come to a conclusion as to why it happened. I can only deal with what has actually played out and use that as a guide.
pts rbs mts %
game 3 vs mem 14 13 25 42
game 5 vs orl 22 9 31 42
game 8 vs LAL 23 24 38 41 5ast
game13 vs LAc 24 14 38 63 4ast W
game15 vs okc 24 17 38 59
game16 vs sas 32 22 46
game32 vs noh 16 11 41 41 W
game35 vs bos 12 24 44 27
That game against LAL was actually pretty close. Point is, scrubs don't put up historic games like that. He may not have won every game, but HE did his job against elite players. You can't deny those rebound numbers against other elite rebounders. All it proves is that he isn't the type of player who can lead a team to victories by himself, again, he's more of a complimentary big who is something closer to 16-13 on a winner. KG was always the 20-14-6 player for the T-Wolves, but even HE never put up these kind of record games. KG went to a winner, and suddenly had averages well below the norm. Point is, Love is on a team who has one player who can create their own shot (Beasley) a guy who thinks he's a star (Darko) and a bunch of very good role players. That doesn't exactly scream success to me. Don't discredit his numbers as just being on a loser when they're THOSE kind of numbers. Name one other person a losing team with numbers THAT inflated simply because of lack of talent. He's an All-Star player this year, whether he get's wins, or makes the ASG or not IMO.
Whats even funnier LLperez, is how in the other board you say "you only look at box scores" and then in this board use box scores to support your point. Make up your mind. All i said was he was a loser. I dont need a box score or not a box score to support that.
So when Tyrke Evans had a rookie stat line that put him in a category with LeBron James, Michael Jordan, and Oscar Robertson, I shouldn't be able to say that the fact the Kings weren't even close to competitive diminishes the stature in which they should be held. What about the fact that Stephon Marbury career numbers are better than HOFers. He was a statistical monster, because they were so great should he be in the class of Magic, Kidd, Isiah, and Stockton? That is ridiculously stupid. CONTEXT MATTERS!
urban, dude are you dense? You asked me to bring up boxscores, lol. You were the one who brought up stats. You asked us to show you stats since you put so much emphasis on stats thats why i told you not to look at box scores on the other thread. Jeez
did you really just say Marbury's numbers are better then HOFers? lmao
Love is by no means a loser. Never has been a loser until he got in Minny. Get him out of there on a team with defenders, and veteran leadership, and you will see Love is not the problem in Minny, outside of his defense. Also, to agree with a poster earlier, with all of this recognition, you don't think he's become the Kobe of rebounding. I.E.,put 2-3 on him to stop him. He should never be looked at to create consistent offense for himself, but on Minny he is due to their lack of creating talent. Who is going to create for him, Ridnour? God, I can't wait until he gets to leave Minny just to prove the doubters wrong. You just don't realize, scrub or no scrub, these are unmatched numbers. David Lee is the closest comparison for the position Love is in, and he didn't put up NEARLY these kind of numbers. And his second best rebounder was freakin AL Harrington. Stop hatin'.
Stats are the only thing that support Kevin Love. If i was all about stats, then i would be parading around calling Love a star. But he isnt, because his stats dont matter. Its really not that hard. All Stars dont play on bad teams. This happens for a reason.
And his second best rebounder was freakin AL Harrington. Stop hatin'.
This point is either mostly or entirely killed by the fact Love's 2nd best rebounder is Michael Beasely. Who couldnt even rebound when he was playing the 4 on a mediocre Miami team.
Oh he won in college and high school, ok so did Eddy Curry.
It happens because of the better talent they're surrounded with.
It happens because individual talent wins games in the NBA. Yes there are 5 men on a court. But as Lebron showed last year, and to a lesser extent as Derrick Rose has shown this year, great players can win games by themselves. Now these may be stars who are winning games at a high level, but generally speaking, All Star calibur players can drag teams to .500.
Any one who brings Marbury into a conversation like this should be questioned for basketball knowledge. He may have numbers, but ANYONE who watched the guy play know exactly why he put up incredible stats, and consistently lost. The guy played the game very selfishly, often freezing teammates out of the game, and overdribbling the air out of the ball. In no way does Love play the game wrong other than defense which would be far less of an issue on a defensive minded team.
Tyreke put up historical numbers as a rookie, what's he doing now that team schemes have aimed at him. Oh yeah, he fell off. IMO, offensively Reke has similar issues to Starbury in the sense he too overdribbles and only looks to pass when he must. Given I don't get watch Reke nearly enough, but what little I have and from college, he's never played the game in a winning way, often looking more AAU oriented than intangibly sound.
Which seems like a worst supporting cast?
Wolves- Ridnour, Brewer, Johnson, Milicic, Webster- None of these guys are renowned for defense. Also a lot younger then Chicago.
Bulls- Boozer, Noah, Deng, Brewer, Korver- Not to mention all of Chicago's supporting cast can play defense.
no great players don't lead teams by themselves all time great players do. Klove is an allstar this year just look at his stats and everything he's done historically Im not saying he's a franchise player, but most definitely an all star. If you look at the long list of players that have been all stars a lot of them will surprise you and not in a good way
Urban, you are full of it, having Darko a legit 7 ft big, and Michael Beasley at the 3, is far more of a challenge than fighting for boards with Al Harrington who WAS a 4 last year and camps at the 3 pt line, and Danilo Gallinari spotting up shooting 3's. Love plays with actual big men, Lee, played with a bunch of 3's and was the LONE rebounder.
Eddy Curry won because he was bigger, don't even insult all of our intelligence by comparing the two. Eddy Curry has never played the game the right way doing nothing but scoring. And he's ALWAYS been on scrub teams but never even smelled any stat that Love has put up. All-Stars are made with stats. Danny Granger, Devin Harris, and David Lee were all on losing teams as well, yet found themselves on the ASteam.
Btw, Should Sir Charles not have been an All-Star in 88 or 92? What about Kobe in 05? Gino was an All-Star with a line of 16-4-4. So because he put up smaller stats on a better team it makes it OK to be an All-Star, but monster numbers on a YOUNG loser with NO vet leadership, doesn't make for an All-Star. Can't go both ways.
KG didn't even make playoffs in his prime for 3 straight years with Minny, but was somehow still an All-Star all three years. Minny is a team who clearly has a losing persona. Doesn't mean all the players are losers who are there. Can't always go by the stats, but in some cases, they are too much to just brush off.
it shouldnt be about who is winning, it should be about how much better you make your team.
if duncan was on the twolves instead of love i think that they would be a better team, but certainly not a winning team.
your argument for odom doesnt make sense, you are saying he is an all star because his team wins, but if kobe got hurt then his team would be .500 at best, so even though he is the exact same player he is not an all star now that his team is losing?
Basically^^^ It's the same reason that Gino got in off of 16-4-4 in a hair under 30mpg. All-Stars aren't always going to be players on winners. Sometimes, people on losing teams, do enough things consistently, and at an ELITE rate, that you just can't argue what they're doing.
"Which seems like a worst supporting cast?
Wolves- Ridnour, Brewer, Johnson, Milicic, Webster- None of these guys are renowned for defense. Also a lot younger then Chicago.
Bulls- Boozer, Noah, Deng, Brewer, Korver- Not to mention all of Chicago's supporting cast can play defense."
Imaginary analysis. You are aware that Boozer and Noah have missed close to half the season and were healthy at the same time for like one or two weeks. Also, Kyle Korver, C.J. Watson, and Carlos Boozer are not exactly defensive players. Derrick Rose is carrying a what is a pitiful team in the way a real All-Star does. He carries the load and makes the jobs of those around him easier. Corey Brewer and Martell Webster are good defensive players. Ridnour and Webster were never criticized for their ability to contribute to winning teams at their previous homes.